# Thinkpad display quality



## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 18, 2022)

Hi there,
I have a Thinkpad x220 running FreeBSD 13 and I love it. However, the display is awful - it’s not bright enough, it generally looks “washed out” and there’s only about a 30 degree “sweet spot” both horizontally and vertically where the colours look reasonably okay.
So, I saw a really good deal for a Thinkpad p50 on Amazon, I think they came out around 2017. It’s a real beast of a workstation, i7 processor and 16GB RAM. I’m really tempted.
So my question is, did Thinkpad displays actually improve in the intervening seven years or so between those two models? I don’t really want to buy a p50 if the subjective experience is going to be the same.
I’d love to hear your experiences with Thinkpad screens over the years.
Thanks.


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## VladiBG (Apr 18, 2022)

TN TFT < IPS < OLED






						Thin-film-transistor liquid-crystal display - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 18, 2022)

Okay so I assume my x220 is the TN version, simply because it’s awful. So the p50 would be an upgrade to IPS 300 nits. (It’s not the 4K version).
Thank you.
I’d still like to hear people’s subjective experiences, especially if someone actually has a p50.


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## diizzy (Apr 18, 2022)

Not sure what your budget is but I would be very cautious getting a 5y old laptop unless it's really cheap. Battery is most likely dead, if you plan to run VMs you'll have degraded performance due to vulnerability workarounds and i7-6820HQ is barely faster than a desktop i7-3770 (its one of the more powerful CPUs that Lenovo offered in this model. In comparison i5-1135G7 for instance is quite a bit faster than both (at full speed) and decent laptops aren't crazy expensive today.


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## grahamperrin@ (Apr 18, 2022)

AlexanderProphet said:


> … a really good deal for …



Can you let us know your budget?

<https://old.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/u4h3qq/-/> two days ago _began_ as a Lenovo-oriented question, from someone with a €500 budget, but it's not Lenovo-specific.

Elsewhere in /r/freebsd I invited a P50 owner to comment here.


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## drr (Apr 18, 2022)

AlexanderProphet said:


> I’d love to hear your experiences with Thinkpad screens over the years.



I have a 3 years old Thinkpad L480, which has a TN panel. I could find out that it was the same panel used on a previous Thinkpad model, for which I found a review online that provided an ICC color profile for this panel. The color profile did improve the colors to my liking.

I have used x11/xcalib to apply the color profile on login.


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 19, 2022)

Hullo there.
Apologies if my posts seem a bit disjointed as I’m very socially awkward even for a Unix geek...
My budget is up to £500 (GBP).
I would like something that doesn’t need too much coaxing to work with FreeBSD, hence the focus on Thinkpads... I remember using Linux in like 2006 and having to compile my own sound and webcam drivers and it just made me frustrated.
Diizzy thanks for your response. I didn’t anticipate battery problems as the p50 is certified renewed (???) and I’ve been running my x220 since 2018 with no battery issues. But you have me a bit worried now as I may have just got lucky that time.
I was under the impression that most new hardware simply doesn’t work with FreeBSD. I didn’t even factor new Thinkpads into my initial search. Is that ill-advised?
Drr thanks for the suggestion!


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## dave01 (Apr 19, 2022)

AlexanderProphet said:


> Hi there,
> I have a Thinkpad x220... there’s only about a 30 degree “sweet spot” both horizontally and vertically where the colours look reasonably okay.


I wonder if you got one with a "security" screen?  ISTR seeing panels with a "security" option such that the viewing angle is deliberately made smaller to restrict "should surfing".  Goto  Lenovo Parts Finder, enter your serial number and have a look at the part description for the LCD panel.  I'm assuming it's the original, as-built panel, which is what the part finder will show.

If you bought second hand/used, another possibility is a 3rd party filter fitted by the original owner, but you can almost always tell if a filter has been added.  Most have a border/bezel that sticks to you original bezel rather than just a plastic sheet carefully laid over the screen like a phone screen protector.  The latter is what you get if it's a factory fitted privacy filter, ie it's an extra layer added to the screen.


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## Scribner (Apr 19, 2022)

I really shouldn't be commenting here, but my ThinkPad X270 from 2019 (the model was originally released in 2016) seems to work well with FreeBSD and doesn't have any screen or battery issues. I believe successors include the X280 and X390. I bought it because there was an article on laptops in the FreeBSD Journal around the time I bought it and the author recommended it and used it himself.

Edit: I'm not sure what the sweet spot of the screen is in degrees, but I've never had any issues with it.


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## grahamperrin@ (Apr 19, 2022)

AlexanderProphet said:


> … I was under the impression that most new hardware simply doesn’t work with FreeBSD. …



Around six months ago: 



grahamperrin said:


> … I sometimes see suggestions to not expect support for computers that are _less than one year old_; words to that effect.
> 
> My point, with bugs such as 255072 (legacy boot) and 255073 (UEFI boot):
> 
> a better generalisation might be, _at least *two* years old_. …



Some time later, a *massive* change for the better, largely thanks to Foundation-sponsored work. In a nutshell: 



grahamperrin said:


> FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE, and its installer, fails to boot various computers
> FreeBSD 13.1-RELEASE will succeed.



Q1 2022 Software Development Projects Update | FreeBSD Foundation

includes _FreeBSD on Framework Laptops_
– and so on.


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## diizzy (Apr 19, 2022)

AlexanderProphet said:


> Hullo there.
> Apologies if my posts seem a bit disjointed as I’m very socially awkward even for a Unix geek...
> My budget is up to £500 (GBP).
> I would like something that doesn’t need too much coaxing to work with FreeBSD, hence the focus on Thinkpads... I remember using Linux in like 2006 and having to compile my own sound and webcam drivers and it just made me frustrated.
> ...


I would *guess* that this https://classic.pricespy.co.uk/product.php?p=5940240 (599£ currently) is a much better choice in the long run, decent screen (IPS, 300 nits, 100% sRGB) and doesn't break the bank. You can also upgrade RAM if needed (which isn't certain these days as some uses low power ram). https://psref.lenovo.com/Detail/ThinkBook/ThinkBook_15_G2_ITL?M=20VE00RPUK
It's not the best thing ever made but for its price I'd say its good for what it is (you can find a lot of reviews online)
According to https://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_5.4#Graphics Tiger Lake should work in 13.1
The only "downside" I can find is that LAN is Realtek but that's not the end of the worl
Worth mentioning is that it also supports Thunderbolt 4 which is very nice at this pricepoint (not supported in FreeBSD currently).

This is, if you're shopping for a 15.6" laptop...


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## kpedersen (Apr 19, 2022)

I personally am never too concerned about degraded battery in an older laptop that is a well known brand (such as Thinkpad). It is quite easy to buy a cheap knockoff battery on ebay and they are fairly good.

I have an x220, x230 and x240.

My x220 does have a very poor screen brightness, I actually just assumed mine was faulty, so it is somewhat reassuring to hear that I am not alone. The x230 and x240 are indeed better; though at the expense of a loss of the Thinkpad light and instead opting for a backlit keyboard.


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## diizzy (Apr 19, 2022)

To clarify, most laptops models comes with different models of screens (specs) so mentioning some random model doesn't help much... =)
While third party batteries might be available quality is usually poor and batteries have limited lifetime and a limited amount of charge cycles A 5y "old stock" battery will most likely not perform any better than one that's been charged lets say a few hundred times or so.


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 19, 2022)

Hullo.
Dave, that’s intriguing about the security screens, I’d never even heard of those. Certainly if it’s like this by design, I can confirm that it works.
Graham, I’ve been drooling over Framework laptops on YouTube! That would be cool, like a Dell XPS but with FreeBSD and you can swap out parts.
I was also looking at Slimbook briefly, it’s a company in Spain (I think) and they were partnered with KDE at one time and sold laptops with Linux preinstalled. I have no idea if they’d run FreeBSD though and they’re not as sexy as the Framework ones. There’s almost nothing on here about Slimbooks and FreeBSD.
I really need a mobile workstation dedicated to FreeBSD as I’m hoping to get sponsorship for an app I’m working on. I don’t have a Plan B.
Okay so, after learning that IPS and 300 nits IS an upgrade, and all kpedersons other Thinkpads have okay displays, the p50 is in my shopping basket now so I’m almost committed. If I decide to buy it I will let the forum know if it works.


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## diizzy (Apr 19, 2022)

What you might want to look up about the P50 is in what state nVidia graphic is regarding FreeBSD and if its switchable (which I think is unsupported on FreeBSD).


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 19, 2022)

Thanks diizzy. The Handbook doesn’t mention any problems with nVidia... but when you say “switchable”, do you mean it possibly can’t be switched at all? Or do you just mean it can’t be dynamically switched based on the load the computer is under? I understand some graphics cards do this.
Thanks.


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## diizzy (Apr 19, 2022)

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/laptop-with-intel-integrated-dedicated-nvidia-gpu.81994/ jbodenmann ping? 
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=nvidia&list_id=475232 might be a better gauge. I think you can find a few users here on the forums to give you an idea in what state it is.


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## tingo (Apr 19, 2022)

diizzy said:


> To clarify, most laptops models comes with different models of screens (specs) so mentioning some random model doesn't help much... =)


Exactly. Extremely relevant for ThinkPads from back when IBM was making them. I don't know if Lenovo has changed anything in the years since.


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 20, 2022)

Okay so, I just went ahead and bought the Thinkpad p50. Admittedly I was probably going to do this anyway. It’s arriving this Saturday. I figured I might have to mess around with xorg but hopefully the threads you linked to diizzy will help.
I also had £20 left over so I bought some Chicken Bone Broth for Tigger.  Tigger is the gorgeous thing in my profile picture, and she feels the same way about chicken as I do about computers.


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 22, 2022)

It arrived a day early! It’s a beast, it weighs about the same as a 2015 MacBook Pro, which I wasn’t expecting. Luckily it’s only for home use. Key travel isn’t as much as I’d like.



I’ll start it up soon, with a FreeBSD image on a USB stick inserted so it doesn’t try to boot into a Legacy OS.


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## kpedersen (Apr 22, 2022)

Very cool. Loving the numpad 

I would recommend booting into Windows once to export all the drivers:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/dism/export-windowsdriver

You never know if you might need to get it repaired one day and the techie is less than knowledgeable about *nix. It is a pain to obtain all the drivers separately.

(Use the Shift-F10 key press in the Windows 10 "initial welcome setup" so you can bring up a command prompt to extract drivers without accepting the license)


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## cracauer@ (Apr 22, 2022)

Welcome to the P50 club. I have one with the 4K screen. Good laptop but I experience problems connecting external displays.


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 22, 2022)

Thanks for that kpederson, I will do that. I had no clue.
Thanks cracauer!


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 23, 2022)

Well that was unnerving and dramatic.
I tried to install FreeBSD with ZFS, and UEFI/legacy switched to “both” in the BIOS. It claimed to have installed successfully but upon rebooting, Windows was still lurking around and told me that my computer “needed repairing”. Lol! I reinstalled FreeBSD with Legacy Boot set, and chose UFS just for good measure. And I’ve just logged into the installed system!
I expect the problem was UEFI but I suppose it might have been the file system. Also it might have been me impatiently pulling out the USB stick at the wrong moment.
I honestly thought for a minute I’d bricked the thing.
As far as the hardware goes, the display is a MASSIVE improvement from the x220. Colours are more vibrant and I have a 60 degree viewing range horizontally now.
Also I think the previous owner barely used it - there’s not a scratch on it, no wear on the keycaps and it even has that plasticky factory smell.
Now I just need to install all my KDE and sudo and things to make it comfy!
Thanks for all the input.


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 23, 2022)

Apologies for the awful picture quality, my phone was being faulty.


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## grahamperrin@ (Apr 23, 2022)

AlexanderProphet said:


> … chose UFS …



ZFS will be more forward-looking (for system upgrade and other purposes).



> … Windows was still lurking …



If you chose guided installation, and if there's just one internal drive: there should be no remnant of Windows.

Please share output from these commands:

`gpart show`
`geom disk list`


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## diizzy (Apr 23, 2022)

Worth mentioning is that it has also caused non bootable systems due to bootcode changes so you need to be a bit careful about running it on rootfs and encryption support isn't complete (booting).


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## grahamperrin@ (Apr 23, 2022)

diizzy said:


> 𒀦… bootcode changes



FreeBSD bug 255318 – handbook: Document how to update the bootloader









						Solved - FreeBSD Handbook improvement surveys – announcement and background
					

For the benefit of people who do not have a full subscription to freebsd-announce:       Pau Amma invites responses to his e-mail:    The FreeBSD Foundation contracted me to develop a prioritized plan for improving and updating the FreeBSD Handbook. For the first stage of this project, I have...




					forums.freebsd.org
				






> … encryption support isn't complete (booting).





grahamperrin said:


> FreeBSD bug 263171 – loader(8) and boot loader menu support for boot with OpenZFS-encrypted ROOT



– also: 

263232 – FreeBSD Handbook: potentially confusing descriptions of UFS and GELI
263233 – bsdinstall: 'ZFS Configuration' has become a confusing heading for encryption-related stages of installation of FreeBSD


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## jb_fvwm2 (Apr 23, 2022)

I'm interested in which display driver is used on the p50 of the three or so
available, and the configuation which ends up working nicely for xorg.


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## tux2bsd (Apr 24, 2022)

I have a second hand x270 (it's running OpenBSD).  Reds are very dull, generally not nice but fine for xterms.

But I've seen that same thing (dull reds) on a brand new nokia phone so who knows...


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## ProphetOfDoom (Apr 25, 2022)

Hi,
I’m just posting briefly because it’s been a bad day...
So, graham, yes there definitely is something odd going on with the disk drive(s), I’ll get back to you with the results of those commands. (I’m writing this on my phone).
When I said “Windows was still lurking” I only meant that the FreeBSD installer had _appeared_ to work - not that it had worked. In any case there is still an option of Windows in the f12 triggered boot menu, I don’t know what it does (if anything) and I’m certainly not going to select it. I don’t know if anyone has any thoughts on that?
@jbfvwm2, I tried the i915kms driver initially and I got X and KDE running, but KDE’s compositor kept crashing (about once per hour or if I logged out of KDE, almost guaranteed a crash). So I’ve now installed nvidia-driver with pkg. At this point KDE kept crashing, leaving me with a blank screen with just a white block cursor at the top left. I fixed it by turning off “hybrid graphics” in the BIOS. This means it uses the nVidia all the time but frankly after fighting with x all day I’m happy to concede to that. If it proves stable I will happily post my xorg.conf.d files, they’re actually very short.


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## grahamperrin@ (Apr 25, 2022)

Thanks, maybe begin separate topics for the issues that are unrelated to Thinkpad display quality (it'll help future readers).


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## ProphetOfDoom (May 12, 2022)

Just a little more info in case anyone else is thinking about buying a p50.
I got it hooked up to an external monitor  (via HDMI) as you can see from the picture. I didn’t even need to edit any configuration files. After I installed KDE I just plugged the monitor in, typed “startx” and it worked! Cracauer@ - maybe your issues were due to faulty hardware or something in the BIOS? Or using the Intel graphics instead of nVidia? It seems strange.
I couldn’t get the acpi_ibm driver to control the keyboard backlight, however you can toggle it with FN+SPACE (you get low, high and off settings). The volume and mute keys work in KDE but brightness doesn’t. However, there is a workaround - just use the xbacklight command. WiFi seems to work. I’m fairly sure you can turn the WiFi on and off with a function key... I can’t check at the moment because my cat is asleep on me. USB works including type C as expected but I haven’t tried it with a display yet, just a memory stick.
The display is fantastic - compared to my Thinkpad x220 it’s like night and day. Plentiful viewing angles and nice contrast. Also and this was a surprise... audio via headphones is significantly better on the p50. I can only imagine that my x220 has really bad digital to analogue converters.
I would highly recommend this notebook for anyone who wants a (somewhat) mobile workstation with FreeBSD.


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## grahamperrin@ (May 13, 2022)

AlexanderProphet said:


> … a workaround - just use the xbacklight command. …



Also, you might like accessibility/gammy.


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