# synth updated today unmantained?



## damfreebsd (Feb 12, 2017)

does it say this:

```
Installing synth-1.68...
===>   NOTICE:

The synth port currently does not have a maintainer
```

what happened  to synth? its unmantained?


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## tobik@ (Feb 12, 2017)

See https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=revision&revision=433856 and https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=revision&revision=433827


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## ASX (Feb 12, 2017)

Really ?This must be a joke ...


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## abishai (Feb 12, 2017)

Burn portmaster hater!


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## ASX (Feb 12, 2017)

tobik said:


> See https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=revision&revision=433856 and https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=revision&revision=433827




```
Author: benno
Date: Fri Feb 10 23:44:41 2017 UTC (43 hours, 10 minutes ago)
Changed paths: 1
Log Message:
Remove marino.

Their behaviour towards their fellow contributors has repeatedly fallen short
of what the Project expects of its members. They were given multiple warnings
that their interactions with other contributors needed to improve and
unfortunately they did not.

Approved by:     portmgr
```

Anybody able to give us mere mortal some more info about what happened ?


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## ASX (Feb 12, 2017)

abishai said:


> Burn portmaster hater!



Saying that portmaster is old, unmaintained, bugged, and ultimately inadeguate doesn't translate to "portmaster hater", but it is merely the thruth.


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## abishai (Feb 12, 2017)

ASX said:


> Saying that portmaster is old, unmaintained, bugged, and ultimately inadeguate doesn't translate to "portmaster hater", but it is merely the thruth.


Who cares what one say? I can say the same, only doing counts https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/ports-mgmt/portmaster/Makefile?revision=407270&view=markup


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## ElijahMann (Feb 12, 2017)

A baseline of respect for other developers is essential.  Maintaining an environment where people are not judged by origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or political views is good for the community and its members.  Here is my bikeshed comment on Benno's message.  From a practical point of view, using the plural to avoid gender labels leaves something to be desired.  English is ambiguous enough.  We are smart people.  We can do better.

Shut up and hack.


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## marino (Feb 12, 2017)

Don't believe what you read.
It's true that I was warned a few months ago, but it's not true that I continued the behavior.
If you ask for evidence of continued bad behavior, you won't get it.
You'll get "trust us", "we know more than you do", "it's in the past", but nobody is going to show you an example supporting this action because it doesn't exist.

I was as surprised as you guys are.


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## marino (Feb 12, 2017)

perhaps ASX can volunteer to maintain the port.


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## ASX (Feb 12, 2017)

marino@ said:


> perhaps ASX can volunteer to maintain the port.


Thanks ... but if they are not going to restore your committer status very soon, I will move out of FreeBSD entirely.

It seems to me they are shooting themselves in their feet, therefore if that is what they want, let be it.


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## marino (Feb 12, 2017)

I appreciate the sentiment, but I wouldn't want anyone to do anything on my account.
Given the current portmgr membership, there's a 0.0001% chance I'm getting my commit bit back.
I'm not that upset about this.  I had already designed a next-gen universal package system (kind of cross between synth and pkgsrc, but more portable between platforms and 10,000 more performant).  It would support the long missing subpackages, flavors, and multiversion that ports never had.  Now I have motivation to realize that system.

Have a UPS that builds identically on solaris, linux, *BSD, macos, etc, would be useful to folks I think.


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## ElijahMann (Feb 12, 2017)

marino@, to be clear, I wasn't commenting specifically on your actions.  I don't have all the facts here.


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## marino (Feb 12, 2017)

ElijahMann@, I understood that.  It wasn't some diversity thing, btw.  The original warning came after I responded to somebody harshly on a mail list PR (maybe he cried?).  Others that I had rubbed the wrong way earlier (likely because they took it the wrong way) had been waiting for me to misstep and so that was strike one.

I'm clueless as to what strike 2 is.


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## marino (Feb 12, 2017)

marino@ said:


> perhaps ASX can volunteer to maintain the port.


Apparently this reply needs clarification.
I can keep on making new synth releases on github, but I can't update the ports-mgmt/synth makefile and distinfo to make those new releases available to ports.  Normally it's a single line change (the version) followed by `make makesum` to regenerate distinfo.

Just about anyone is capable of that.


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## ElijahMann (Feb 12, 2017)

Benno, as a (contributing) FreeBSD community member, I kindly and respectfully ask that you disclose the details of specific incidents since the warning was issued that resulted in the decision to remove marino@'s commit bit.  Was it core's decision alone?


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## ericbsd (Feb 12, 2017)

I maintain some ports I could do that.


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## marino (Feb 12, 2017)

ElijahMann@ as far as I understood, Benno was just acting as a secretary, implementing the decision of others.  The way it was worded, the "core" didn't vote, but rather it was a directive from portmgr.  

I've requested the same information and should be given it in a couple of days, but it sounds like this was mostly subjective (in other words, there's no specific incident to hold up as proof of continued bad behavior).


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## marino (Feb 12, 2017)

ericturgeon said:


> I maintain some ports I could do that.


Thanks.  The process would be to write a bugzilla PR requesting maintainership.  It will likely be given first-come, first serve.
The portscout will tell you within one day when new releases are available (via email)


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## ASX (Feb 12, 2017)

marino@ said:


> Given the current portmgr membership, there's a 0.0001% chance I'm getting my commit bit back.


Remain to be seen.



> I'm not that upset about this. I had already designed a next-gen universal package system (kind of cross between synth and pkgsrc, but more portable between platforms and 10,000 more performant). It would support the long missing subpackages, flavors, and multiversion that ports never had. Now I have motivation to realize that system.
> 
> Have a UPS that builds identically on solaris, linux, *BSD, macos, etc, would be useful to folks I think.



Sound great, but please don't name it "UPS", I can't imagine people googling that name. 
.


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## marino (Feb 12, 2017)

don't worry, i'll try to come up with something cool and unique.


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## Steel (Feb 13, 2017)

On the one hand, I am happy to see a potentially vital piece of FreeBSD infrastructure written in Fing Ada and requiring GCC to go away and be replaced by something that isn't a vanity project for its creator. 

On the other, I pray this isn't more creeping SJW/Code of Conduct garbage taking hold and some snowflake's feefees got hurt.


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## piggy (Feb 13, 2017)

abishai said:


> Burn portmaster hater!


+1


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 13, 2017)

ASX said:


> Sound great, but please don't name it "UPS", I can't imagine people googling that name.





marino@ said:


> don't worry, i'll try to come up with something cool and unique.



Or it could simple be called synth 2.0.


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## ShelLuser (Feb 13, 2017)

With incidents like this you'll always be hearing one sided stories, no matter who you ask. But to be honest I can't say that this comes as a surprise to me, solely based on what I read throughout when I briefly tested Synth for myself. Once you start announcing how you're superior to everything else no matter what then - in my opinion - something definitely isn't right.

And of course we now hear that this decision is bad and that no one did anything wrong, etc, etc. Every time someone gets some kind of punishment then only a minority lives up to it and picks up the pieces. Most will deny it, followed by other outings and I dunno what's next because I usually stopped caring by then.

Note: I'm not judging here, I'm only commenting on things which I recognize because I've seen issues like these happen a lot (not necessarily within the FreeBSD community).


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## marino (Feb 13, 2017)

the new system would compete with ports, pkgsrc, and every other s/w building system that already exists.
On that system, functionality similar to synth would be inbuilt.
It would not be make-based, so it would be impossible to build on a live system.

The interface would be like synth on steroids (search, info, options handling, etc), but there would not be any separate tools like portupgrade/portmaster/poudriere/synth/etc.

It's not just a dressed-up ports, it's something new.
More importantly, unlike all those other systems I mentioned, it's not tied to any single platform or operating system. 
Submissions would be integration tested against all supported platforms.    Sanity-and-validity checking are also inbuilt so it's basically impossible to commit a faulty port.

so no, it would not be appropriate to name the whole system after an interface it was roughly inspired by...


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## marino (Feb 13, 2017)

ShelLuser said:


> With incidents like this you'll always be hearing one sided stories, no matter who you ask. But to be honest I can't say that this comes as a surprise to me, solely based on what I read throughout when I briefly tested Synth for myself. Once you start announcing how you're superior to everything else no matter what then - in my opinion - something definitely isn't right.



Correction 1: it was said synth is superior, not me.
Observation 1: You're suggesting I was banished because I said my program was better than 2 specific pieces of software?



> And of course we now hear that this decision is bad and that no one did anything wrong, etc, etc. Every time someone gets some kind of punishment then only a minority lives up to it and picks up the pieces. Most will deny it, followed by other outings and I dunno what's next because I usually stopped caring by then.



I've been forthcoming.
Feel free to discover or get somebody to say the "real" reason.
As of this moment, I don't what illustrated the "did not improve", when it happened, or how many times.
No evidence has been given to me or anyone else.

I'm a top 5 ports committer and have been for 3 straight years.
You are free to decide if FreeBSD is better off this week than last week without my contributions.



> Note: I'm not judging here, I'm only commenting on things which I recognize because I've seen issues like these happen a lot (not necessarily within the FreeBSD community).



Have you ever heard of Matt Dillon?


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## ericbsd (Feb 13, 2017)

I am now the maintainer of the synth ports.


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## chrbr (Feb 13, 2017)

marino@ said:


> It's true that I was warned a few months ago, but it's not true that I continued the behavior.


Dear marino@,
at the when you started ports-mgmt/synth I think the tone with respect to ports-mgmt/portmaster has been a little bit offensive.

After some time it was the other way around. All claims as ports-mgmt/synth needs much resources, ports-mgmt/synth swaps, ports-mgmt/synth hangs on my small machine are in my opinion common restrictions which I also observe with ports-mgmt/poudriere if I want to get too much out of my box. But you and others have explained with patience the restrictions where ports-mgmt/synth could never be blamed for. To be honest I really wondered how you could be so patient because some claims have been quite offensive, at least from my point of view. I have learned from that discussions.

May be there has happened more behind the scene I have not been aware of as a small user. Thank you for maintaining all the other ports, too. I hope the time could be turned back a little bit. I am still happy with ports-mgmt/poudriere which I started to use a few weeks before  ports-mgmt/synth has been introduced where many others are happy with. I think one can use ports-mgmt/portmaster with some care and be successful, too. It is good to have the choice and I hope this will not change.


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## ASX (Feb 13, 2017)

ericturgeon said:


> I am now the maintainer of the synth ports.


Thanks, with all due respect I would have preferred the proper solutions, restore the committer status of marino@ .



chrbr said:


> To be honest I really wondered how you could be so patient because some claims have been quite offensive


Yep, there has been times like that ... where I was expecting some rude reaction ... didn't happened.


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## abishai (Feb 13, 2017)

chrbr said:


> I think one can use ports-mgmt/portmaster with some care and be successful, too. It is good to have the choice and I hope this will not change.


I use portmaster everywhere except my laptop, where I use synth and portmaster in conjuction (synth to compile, portmaster to set and maintain port options as synth can't do this). The idea behind synth is rather good to skip it entirely.


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## ASX (Feb 13, 2017)

marino@ said:


> I'm a top 5 ports committer and have been for 3 straight years.



I would guess that by doing so you have been exposed to a lot of controversy about ports management, certainly much more than other ports committers.

Then it would be interesting to evaluate the weighted amount of "bad interactions" among the total commits:
read: the more you do, the more are the chance you interact badly ... and then you will be punished.

I'm still waiting for some documented facts.


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## marino (Feb 13, 2017)

ASX said:


> I would guess that by doing so you have been exposed to a lot of controversy about ports management, certainly much more than other ports committers.
> 
> Then it would be interesting to evaluate the weighted amount of "bad interactions" among the total commits:
> read: the more you do, the more are the chance you interact badly ... and then you will be punished.



That's very astute of you.
It's easy to keep your nose clean when you make 20 commits a year.

I rebuild the entire tree about every 2 weeks.
I find global problems sometimes before the freebsd cluster machines do.
There are very few committers that have such a global view of the tree.
Since it's too time consuming to talk to every port maintainer to fix, I frequently fixed with "just-fix-it blanket".
That's against the old ways and caused friction with old soul committers, but it was within the new rules.

The real friction is that a non-insignificant percentage of commits were to fix DragonFly.
Some people are offended by this and think DF fixes have no place in FreeBSD tree.  Most don't, but a few were really against this.
These people are happy to see me booted, I can tell you that.

So yes, the sheer number of commits (over 3500) plus the coverage is very much at the heart of all this.  Because just about every aspect of the tree had a impact, I had my fingers in a lot, far more than the average committer.


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## xtaz (Feb 13, 2017)

I can understand removing a commit bit but I don't get why they needed to remove the maintainer from the port. Being a maintainer on a port doesn't need any special privileges. Could have just continued to update the ports via submitting a PR.


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## Chris_H (Feb 15, 2017)

marino@ said:


> I appreciate the sentiment, but I wouldn't want anyone to do anything on my account.
> ...


Hello, John. I didn't catch this thread on the Forums until this AM.
But caught _this_ one on the ML, and I had _this_ to say. Hope you don't mind

```
> Occasionally we’re called to account for our decisions, reflect upon their
> correctness and at times reverse the decision.
>
>
>
> John Marino (John) has conducted himself with a passion for making
> decisions in the interests of ports' users over many years with great
> professionalism and enthusiasm.

I'm usually very much disinclined to get even remotely involved
in what may appear to be political / internal drama. But in this
instance, I feel strongly compelled to respond.

I met John through my initial interest in getting involved in
the ports system -- maintaining ports.
I immediately recognized that John was a man of strong convictions.
He was always outspoken -- he spoke "straight", and I greatly
appreciated it! We had many disagreements. I'm strong minded, and
as a result, resistant to change. But I must humbly admit that I
ultimately had to agree with John nearly every time.
As a result I have a tremendous amount of respect for John -- he
earned it! Some may find outspoken people abrasive, or undesirable,
and reject them. If that's the case here; I can easily say they're
missing the forest, for the trees. Sound reasonable advice, and
knowledge is good; no matter *what* tone it's spoken.
I can tell you this; John gave me a leg up, into becoming a ports
maintainer. He must have done a fair job, in my opinion. As I
currently maintain over 100 (one hundred) ports. I have but one
outstanding pr(1). Which I was working on, when I read this message.
I can also tell you; because of my strong mindedness, I was *not*
an ideal candidate for a mentor. I can assure you, I challenged
John's patience a number of times. But out of his guidance, and
insistence TDTRT. I've managed to maintain the number of ports I
do today.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is this;
John demands the best. Which produces high quality output from
those whom work with him. If John Marino has been excommunicated
from FreeBSD. The only looser will be FreeBSD itself.

My writeup on this is due to the OP alluding to the reason for
John's expulsion somehow being related to his "outspokenness".
Something *I* found to be a *great* *attribute*.

Thanks for all your time, and consideration.

--Chris
```
The ML thread is titled:
*Expulsion of John Marino - reasons and impact?*
But maybe you already caught it.

I have very strong feelings about this situation. But have chosen to give myself a "cool off"
period, before acting upon them.

I wish you all the very best. Whatever, or where ever this ends. If you _do_ get
excommunicated. It _will_ be FreeBSD' loss -- nothing like cutting you're nose off, to spite
your face. 

--Chris


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## marino (Feb 15, 2017)

Thanks Chris.  Yes, I did see that post and I greatly appreciate the sentiment you project.  This thing is starting to take a life of it's own (I see the topic on BSD/Reddit now too).

I guess I just made too many omelets.
Life goes on.  You could view this whole thing as favor, actually, because I'm recovering tons of free time.


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## ASX (Feb 15, 2017)

marino@ said:


> Life goes on.  You could view this whole thing as favor, actually, because I'm recovering tons of free time.



I'm glad you take the positive side on this issue.

As for myself, I'm personally disgusted, particularly about the core team and specifically about the lack of proper action from the core team, enough for me to leave FreeBSD.

My personal thank you for all your work, I learned a lot from you!


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## tankist02 (Feb 15, 2017)

Can we start a petition "Reinstate John Marino" or something? I appreciated a lot his work on Synth, quick fixing of broken ports and detailed explanations how the ports system works. Compare this to 9 months it took to do a little fix for news/pan (PR 199303). I see complains that FreeBSD needs more developers - and then they fire a really good one. With a rather vague explanation. What's going on with the project leadership?


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## PacketMan (Feb 16, 2017)

I know me and John rubbed our noses a few times, but in the big scheme of things, I think what he has done is sheer brilliance.  Yeah his personality might be a bit strong, but so is mine, and (not bragging or comparing here) so was Winston Churchill, and a whole pile of other men and woman who have made humanity and life of earth a whole lot better. Frankly I appreciate his blunt no tippy toeing around cut to the chase explanations; even if I don't agree with all of them, and even if a couple of em were to me.  To the leadership of FreeBSD - please reinstate John Marino.



tankist02 said:


> Can we start a petition "Reinstate John Marino" or something? I



Get it going, and I'll put my name on it.


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## abishai (Feb 16, 2017)

Ports have returned back to John https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=revision&revision=434195


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## ASX (Feb 16, 2017)

abishai said:


> Ports have returned back to John https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=revision&revision=434195





> The mistake was completely on my part, I somehow connected the dots the
> wrong way in my head.



Understandably, because this is not the only mistake, the major one was made upfront and still need to be fixed!

Public apologies are deserved too.


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## marino (Feb 16, 2017)

I wasn't asked if I wanted to continue as a regular maintainer though.  They just gave me the ports back with the assumption I'm going to be happy opening PR after PR and waiting for former colleagues to commit them.

In other words, if they had asked me directly if I wanted them back, I would have said "no, leave them without a maintainer".


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## ASX (Feb 16, 2017)

Out of all this I asked to have my forum account removed. All the Best.

ASX


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## ericbsd (Feb 16, 2017)

marino if you want your maintainership back I have no problem with that. let me know.


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## Nasrudin (Feb 16, 2017)

marino said:


> I've been forthcoming.
> Feel free to discover or get somebody to say the "real" reason.
> As of this moment, I don't what illustrated the "did not improve", when it happened, or how many times.
> No evidence has been given to me or anyone else.



It is this assertion, coupled with the silence of those responsible, that invites the conclusion of impropriety from whomever is responsible for your loss of commit bit. 

I believe open source should have open processes, and for the same reasons that source is open. It's too bad FreeBSD core will likely never consider this idea. Being parental can be addicting, and sadly this damages them more than anyone else.


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## marino (Feb 16, 2017)

Thanks eric,
why don't you keep it for now?
I haven't decided what to do about all these ports.  As I mentioned earlier today, they didn't ask what I wanted to do; they were all just reassigned back to me (minus synth and zstd).


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## fernandel (Feb 16, 2017)

marino said:


> I wasn't asked if I wanted to continue as a regular maintainer though.  They just gave me the ports back with the assumption I'm going to be happy opening PR after PR and waiting for former colleagues to commit them.
> 
> In other words, if they had asked me directly if I wanted them back, I would have said "no, leave them without a maintainer".


I will do the same...but:
From DOS, OS/2, Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD....and who knows I will ask you for help on DragonFly soon 
Thank you for all help with your Synth.


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