# Problems- post Win10 update.



## KenGordon (Nov 11, 2020)

I am not sure if this is the correct part of the forum to post this, but I will begin here:

After a recent Win10 update, when I attempt to begin a FreeBSD session from completely separate HDs on two separate computers, neither the keyboard nor the mouse works any more. It is as if FreeBSD cannot find them at all.

Has anyone else here run into this issue, and what did you do to fix it?

I REALLY don't want to completely rebuild my FreeBSD installs all over again. I was just getting them both to where I could pretty much ignore WinDOZE and was very close to deleting it from both computers. Now I am kinda stuck.

I cannot figure out how an update from Billy's crap would effect BSD. It almost acts as though the hardware was changed somehow.

Any help?

Ken Gordon


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## a6h (Nov 11, 2020)

Although I don't think it has anything to do with the Windows update, still


KenGordon said:


> After a recent Win10 update


Was it a regular/security or a cumulative update? Please post the exact "KB....". number.



KenGordon said:


> separate HDs


By that I suppose you've meant HDD. How do you connect your keyboard and mouse to the two separate machines simultaneously?



KenGordon said:


> I cannot figure out how an update from Billy's crap would effect BSD.


Dr. Bill is busy saving the universe. Also I can't think of any scenario which windows could possibly change the internal of keyboard and mouse! There's nothing there. Unless you have some of those programmable mouse, like Logitech series with build-in storage, which save the custom configurations in the mouse, such as Logitech G500.

[EDIT]
If you have one of those programmable mouse and keyboard with on-board memory, log into your windows installation and and reset them to the default setting. For example on some Logitech mouses you can change the DPI and functionality of those little extra keys on the mouse. Then save them on the device (on-board memory), detach the mouse and plug it into another machine, e.g. FreeBSD. Now you have your modified setting on FreeBSD, e.g. DPI.


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## ShelLuser (Nov 11, 2020)

KenGordon said:


> After a recent Win10 update, when I attempt to begin a FreeBSD session from completely separate HDs on two separate computers, neither the keyboard nor the mouse works any more. It is as if FreeBSD cannot find them at all.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean here...  Do you reboot the system into FreeBSD or do you have something else set up?


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## KenGordon (Nov 12, 2020)

I have not made myself clear, so let me try to do a better job:

1) I have two computers, both built by me, one up here in my office, and another down in my basement ham shack. Both computers have at least two separate HDDs, one of which is used for a Win10 Pro install, and another is used for a FreeBSD install. I boot into which one I want at boot time. In both cases, I use the F-12 function-key to choose which HDD to boot from. In the ham-shack computer, I also have a third HDD, which has Win XP installed on it, from which I run, once in a while, old software which will not work in Win10. The office computer also has a separate 2 GB HDD for data, only, which is connected to the computer through a USB port.

2) A couple of months ago, after a Win10 Pro update, whether a cumulative one or something else, I don't know, since it was some weeks between my sessions with FreeBSD, when booting into the separate HDD which contains my FreeBSD installs, on BOTH computers, FreeBSD will no longer recognize either the keyboards or the mice, both of which are USB versions. Further, it appears that FreeBSD will no longer recognize any of the USB ports.

3) I CAN boot into Single-User mode, and the keyboard will work in that mode, but I get constant notices that there is a problem with the USB ports.

Since I have been terribly busy with family matters, I have not been able to spend the necessary time investigating what I can do in single-user mode, but so far, it doesn't look good.  I can REBOOT in single-user mode and that works fine, and Win10 Pro works.....well....OK...for Win10...but so far I can do nothing in FreeBSD.

I tried unplugging the AC cord from the office computer and letting it sit, unplugged for some time, thinking that something was being held in memory, but that didn't help the situation.

So, what I am asking is has anyone here run into such a problem, and what did you do to fix it?

Billy's boys are always fouling something up, and I have fixed constant problems with that sort of issue, but this is a new one on me. How could something done in Billy's crap effect FreeBSD?

Ken Gordon


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## KenGordon (Nov 12, 2020)

I think I am going to try the following: after I shut this computer down tonight, I will unplug the AC cord, and then tomorrow, I will plug the AC cord back in and immediately attempt to boot into FreeBSD instead of Windoze. That should at least tell me whether or not something is being held in memory that fouls up the situation.

Later,

Ken Gordon


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## a6h (Nov 12, 2020)

* Can you attach another keyboard to the machine or ssh to it and update FreeBSD?
* Do you have any USB3 device attached to the machine?
* Can detach all external peripheral devices and try again?
* Can you plug your keyboard to another USB port, and try again?

* When you boot in the FreeBSD: do you receive continuous error messages on the "System Console" (Alt+F1) similar to one of these:
[I can't remember or reproduce the exact errors, but they appear in white colours (not gray)]:


```
da0:umass ... fatal error ...
probe0:umass ... CAM  ... error
probe0:umass ... inquiry ...
probe0:umass ... error ...
probe0:umass ... retrying ...
ugen?.?: ... USB ... disconnected
```

* Boot from a Live FreeBSD DVD/USB and test your keyboard again. If the problem persist and you're sure it's not a software problem:
The next step: open up the case and keep it that way. You have to run multiple tests and you need to be patent. Maybe there's a hardware problem.

- Detach all USB front panel headers from motherboard (those which extend/provide USB ports to the front and back panel of the case)
- Detach all unnecessary expansion cards from expansion slots, including possible secondary GPU.

* I suppose you're using SATA. Attach the SATA connector to different SATA ports. Test different SATA data cable/connector (7-pin) and power cable/connector (15-pin).

* Boot into FreeBSD, stay in "System Console", unplug the keyboard and plug it again. Any error messages?


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## George (Nov 12, 2020)

It's really hard to believe that Windows would update the firmware of a mouse or keyboard.

Xorg switched methods for autoconfiguration of input devices from devd to udev a while ago. I think the problem might lie there, somewhere.. E.g. https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/new-xorg-switch-from-devd-to-udev.74144/


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## KenGordon (Nov 16, 2020)

KenGordon said:


> I think I am going to try the following: after I shut this computer down tonight, I will unplug the AC cord, and then tomorrow, I will plug the AC cord back in and immediately attempt to boot into FreeBSD instead of Windoze. That should at least tell me whether or not something is being held in memory that fouls up the situation.
> 
> Later,
> 
> Ken Gordon



OK. I did the above. Left the office computer unplugged over-night, then plugged AC power back in and immediately tried to boot into FreeBSD. Still no joy. I then checked the BIOS to see if Billy's crap made some changes in there, and all looks as it was before: no changes. I am at a loss here.  I am going to investigate single-user mode more closely to see if I can update my installs of FreeBSD. So far, that hasn't worked either, but I have forgotten exactly how to use single-user mode. When I tried to update FreeBSD using what I remembered, I get a "directory is not write-able" type of error message, which probably means I have a permissions issue.

Thanks for the help so far.

Ken Gordon


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## KenGordon (Nov 16, 2020)

vigole said:


> * Can you attach another keyboard to the machine or ssh to it and update FreeBSD?


Doing that has no effect.



vigole said:


> * Do you have any USB3 device attached to the machine?


No.


vigole said:


> * Can detach all external peripheral devices and try again?


Does not help at all.


vigole said:


> * Can you plug your keyboard to another USB port, and try again?


That doesn't help either. Same result.



vigole said:


> * When you boot in the FreeBSD: do you receive continuous error messages on the "System Console" (Alt+F1) similar to one of these:
> [I can't remember or reproduce the exact errors, but they appear in white colours (not gray)]:
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. Having to do with the USB system. I'll get exact copies and post here as soon as I can.

Thanks.

Ken Gordon


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## KenGordon (Nov 17, 2020)

First of all, let me repeat: this problem has happened to TWO completely separate computers, both, some time after a somewhat recent Win10 update.

Yesterday, I again tried to fire up FreeBSD 12.1 RELEASE here on this (my office) computer, and dropped to SingleUser mode. Periodically, while I was attempting to work in that mode, I would be interrupted by the following:

"Ugen5.2 <Logitech USB Optical Mouse> at usbus5 {disconnected)" Followed immediately by "Ugen5.2 <Logitech USB Optical Mouse at usbus5"

I am getting the same sort of error messages on the ham shack computer in the basement. It seems VERY odd to me that identical problems should occur on two completely different computers at almost the same time and after a Win10 update.

The ONLY thing common to both computers is that WIn10 update, and if this IS the source of the problem, I am having great difficulty getting my head around how a Win10 update could cause a hardware issue.

Ken Gordon


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 17, 2020)

Windows is famous for screwing with hard drive boot sectors for those who dual boot, though this is not your case. I'm curious whether Windows somehow found the other disk and messed with that. 

Note that the idea of leaving the computer unplugged overnight is not necessary. It only takes seconds to a few minutes for power supplies to drain down.


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## a6h (Nov 17, 2020)

Did you try to boot from a Live FreeBSD USB/DVD? What was the result?


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## KenGordon (Nov 18, 2020)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Windows is famous for screwing with hard drive boot sectors for those who dual boot, though this is not your case. I'm curious whether Windows somehow found the other disk and messed with that.


I had not thought of that, but I'll bet you're correct. Which means, I believe, that I'll have to re-install FreeBSD and start all over again. Thanks, Billy.....not.



drhowarddrfine said:


> Note that the idea of leaving the computer unplugged overnight is not necessary. It only takes seconds to a few minutes for power supplies to drain down.



Yes. I know that. I did this because I wanted to go to bed.  I'm 78 and need what beauty sleep I can get at my age.

Ken Gordon


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## KenGordon (Nov 18, 2020)

vigole said:


> Did you try to boot from a Live FreeBSD USB/DVD? What was the result?


I have not yet done that. I think, since it seems likely that I'll have to start all over again, I'll set up a USB drive with the latest RELEASE version, and go to work.

Thanks,

Ken Gordon


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## KenGordon (Nov 18, 2020)

Thank you, youse guys. I really like this forum. Take care,

Ken Gordon


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## Misirca (Nov 18, 2020)

KenGordon said:


> I cannot figure out how an update from Billy's crap would effect BSD. It almost acts as though the hardware was changed somehow.


Dont underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Actually, it can.
Some Windows updates may include UEFI bios updates, or other components firmware, for instance. 

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2018/10/17/introducing-component-firmware-update/

Check USB status in BIOS.

Also, If your current FreeBSD install allows it, try a legacy BIOS boot, then an UEFI boot, just to be sure...


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## ampshock (Dec 29, 2020)

I believe I had a similar problem the other day. I tried inserting and booting from a Windows 10 DVD I burned and I installed windows onto a seperate hard drive but when I removed that hard drive with windows on it and put my BSD hard drive back in I was unable to boot BSD! the UEFI boot sequence didn't work at all... I ended up just reinstalling FreeBSD with BIOS boot on a third hard drive and mounted my old bsd and transfered the files over to the newer FreeBSD.


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## free-and-bsd (Dec 29, 2020)

KenGordon said:


> I have not made myself clear, so let me try to do a better job:
> 
> ... I also have a third HDD, which has Win XP installed on it, from which I run, once in a while, old software which will not work in Win10. ...


May I ask how you do that? XP will NOT run on a computer that is not at least 10 years old. And if so, it's been my experience USB ports fail among the first things on an old motherboard.


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## free-and-bsd (Dec 29, 2020)

KenGordon said:


> OK. I did the above. Left the office computer unplugged over-night, then plugged AC power back in and immediately tried to boot into FreeBSD. Still no joy. I then checked the BIOS to see if Billy's crap made some changes in there, and all looks as it was before: no changes. I am at a loss here.  I am going to investigate single-user mode more closely to see if I can update my installs of FreeBSD. So far, that hasn't worked either, but I have forgotten exactly how to use single-user mode. When I tried to update FreeBSD using what I remembered, I get a "directory is not write-able" type of error message, which probably means I have a permissions issue.
> 
> Thanks for the help so far.
> 
> Ken Gordon


You add -s to your kernel boot command to get into single-user mode. It will, naturally, throw you into read-only filesystem. Which you change by the command `mount -u -w /`.
But checking BIOS settings may be a good idea. Seems like nothing changed? Well, it may mean nothing. I usually try to change related settings (USB in your case) or, at least, change to "safe defaults". The idea here is to somehow RESET BIOS from the settings you have now with which USB devices don't work.
You may want to enable in BIOS "Legacy USB".


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## Mirror176 (Dec 31, 2020)

Safest way to power off a Windows 10 computer is to choose to restart it, then during startup you can power off and/or select another OS the computer during the BIOS POST sequence. Not doing so will have a typical Windows install hibernate parts of the operating system during shut down so that if you mounted the filesystem and altered its filesystem structure in 'any' way, Windows will disregard it and assume it knows how it was at time of last shutdown to still be current; new filesystem structure on disk is not actually read again. To get around that, you have to make sure fastboot is disabled. I don't think that would impact USB but worth a test.
  XP compatible hardware is far from brand new; have you looked for visual cues that it is not in good shape like bulging/leaking electrolytic capacitors? Does event viewer show anything unusual in the 'system'(?) logs on either Windows version? Any difference in booting FreeBSD after XP. Have you tried different USB ports (preferably bigger changes like USB3->USB2 though I would prefer USB2 for keyboard/mice and USB3 + wireless is a plan for failure due to interference. Does actually unplugging the USB device make the FreeBSD single user errors disappear and then start up again when you reconnect it? Do you get the same logs from FreeBSD install media (maybe try older and newer versions of it too)? What if you boot FreeBSD with no keyboard/mouse connected (disconnect other drives and if necessary unplug keyboard/mouse at end of BIOS if it stops with no keyboard). Do the errors happen with just a keyboard or mouse? What are the errors, FreeBSD and Windows version, USB keyboard/mouse model (as suggested earlier, you should have other unnecessary devices disconnected for testing), motherboard model and BIOS version and last date you 'know' it was updated. What USB chipset driver version+date in Windows? Does Windows update history show relevant driver updates around the time your issue started? Have you tried altering USB settings like EHCI handoff, legacy support on/off, etc.? Have you tried a different model of keyboard/mouse?
  I have seen a driver update in Windows cause the network driver to not function under a reboot or less likely but maybe it was power off (forget which) but work from the other when following it by launching FreeBSD from Windows before that; it was fixed in another driver update though a downgrade could have worked too. As it stands now, my dad's computer doesn't show his USB keyboard as connected until partway through booting into Windows 10 while my same model keyboard on the same USB cable(?) with same version keyboard firmware works; haven't troubleshooted it thoroughly but I presume his keyboard is failing in some weird way.
  I presume you aren't transmitting from said shack while troubleshooting; I have had bad experiences where dad's radio was being picked up through my printer and lesser degree monitor with faint audio heard on my speakers and random keypresses would go into my computer when he used an amplifier years ago. Recent put 'real' ferrite with mulitple wraps on some cables to try to get rid of pickup observed through speakers as quality of life improvement as it was observable without the amplifier too. Don't assume computers are well shielded; they usually use crappy shielding and groundloops are common too in my experience.


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