# Which book do you plan to read.



## Alain De Vos (Dec 27, 2022)

In these dark days, which book do you plan to read.
[For me by coincidence a programming book :








						Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



]


----------



## Phishfry (Dec 27, 2022)

Ahh yea Satanic computer ritual manual. Lisp included. What are all those funky symbols for?
No wonder people don't code. MIT is wacked. Do you wear the robe too?


----------



## Phishfry (Dec 27, 2022)

We have books like that in the machine shop.
Where they ran power from the waterwheel to shafting(wooden) and pulleys driving leather straps driving the lathes.

I got SICP and tried to read it. Honestly.


----------



## Phishfry (Dec 27, 2022)

OK seriously I would like a book on writing device trees.

We have good web tutorials but they are rather shallow.

I need a SICP for Device Tree writing.


Device Tree Overlays (Linux) | Toradex Developer Center

Devicetree Overlay Notes — The Linux Kernel documentation

Device Tree Source Undocumented - eLinux.org

Use Device Tree Overlays to Patch Your Device Tree | Digi International


----------



## yuripv79 (Dec 27, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Ahh yea Satanic computer ritual manual. Lisp included. What are all those funky symbols for?
> No wonder people don't code. MIT is wacked. Do you wear the robe too?


Dark days, dark hearts, darker deeds.

Seeing Expanse series being cancelled, started reading the books.


----------



## bakul (Dec 27, 2022)

*Reading* SICP would be more fun (and helpful) if you also try out examples and exercises in it with a compatible Scheme interpreter! There is a complete course Sussman & Abelson gave at HP in 1986 that may also be of interest: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090


----------



## Phishfry (Dec 27, 2022)

I think SICP was meant to fail incoming freshmen. Even with a good grip on higher math is it quite grueling.


----------



## bakul (Dec 27, 2022)

I think experimenting with little Scheme functions can help one get an insight on higher order functions etc. And you can always skip stuff that is not interesting at the moment or too hard! I do think it being an MIT book and course gives people the wrong idea!


----------



## Phishfry (Dec 27, 2022)

I bought it used so I am not complaining.
At least it all still works unlike my Python2 books that are now good for nothing.
Lisp never sleeps.


----------



## Lamia (Dec 27, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Lisp never sleeps.


Does Perl sleep? I am planning to read or learn it though it has been a wishful thinking. Nonetheless,  I really would like to learn a time-tested and rock-solid knowledge (not just lang. or env. or tech.).


----------



## bakul (Dec 28, 2022)

Too bad Neil Young & Crazy Horse never did Lisp never sleeps!


----------



## cracauer@ (Dec 28, 2022)

I should go through the DTrace book page by page.

Lisp is the only language that long-term use software should be written in.


----------



## Lamia (Dec 28, 2022)

cracauer@ said:


> Lisp is the only language that long-term use software should be written in.


Emacs is a proof. I like extending it. 
I once thought of learning it to gain some knowledge of Lisp too back then.


----------



## Paul Floyd (Dec 28, 2022)

Just finished Iglberger “C++ Software Design”, currently reading Preschem “Fluent C” (both review copies for Accu). Next up Pikus “The Art of Writing Efficient Programs”.


----------



## Paul Floyd (Dec 28, 2022)

cracauer@ said:


> I should go through the DTrace book page by page.
> 
> Lisp is the only language that long-term use software should be written in.


In over 30 years of working on numerical simulation I’ve yet to see one line of lisp in production code and I’ll warrant that the situation won’t change.


----------



## rsronin (Dec 28, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> In these dark days, which book do you plan to read.
> [For me by coincidence a programming book :
> 
> 
> ...


Brings back memories and nightmares.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Dec 28, 2022)

But i'll start with this one,








						How to Design Programs - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## _al (Dec 28, 2022)

I plan to read  The UNIX-HATERS Handbook


----------



## _al (Dec 28, 2022)

Lamia said:


> Does Perl sleep?...


For me, Perl is an everyday tool.


----------



## Profighost (Dec 28, 2022)

I am reading books about
how to improve my reading speed.


----------



## mer (Dec 28, 2022)

Are we limited to only "computer" books?


----------



## Alain De Vos (Dec 28, 2022)

This is off-topic. Normally you can post your favorite beer


----------



## Alain De Vos (Dec 29, 2022)

I'll start with  less academic books. Even those who have a bad reviews.


			The Scheme Programming Language, 4th Edition


----------



## Crivens (Dec 29, 2022)

I think about the hydrogen sonata.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Dec 29, 2022)

Still the 8-queens problem bites into my leg.
And back-tracking.
I'll leave perl aside. But I can not explain. Ugliness ?


----------



## fernandel (Dec 29, 2022)

From  high school once a year I am reading Jaroslav Hasek - The Good Solder Svejk. It is the best anti war book for me and waiting for January. Now I am toward the end of Zola Paris and half of the Dostoyevsky Idiot and Kafka's The trial is done.


----------



## _al (Dec 30, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> ...
> And back-tracking.
> I'll leave perl aside. But I can not explain. Ugliness ?


Perl is not only a fun and powerful toy, it is a true friend who will always understand what you want from him depending on the context.  And yes, in order to use it, you need to love it, for which you first need to understand it more deeply.  Unlike most other programming languages, it was written by a linguist and philanthropist, which explains a lot.


----------



## cracauer@ (Dec 30, 2022)

I respect Perl a lot. It is one of those "code-compression" languages that use expressive power to shorten boilerplate. While Lisp shortens your code paths for the most complicated parts Perl shortens your code paths for the most common parts. Both respectable approches.

Java is the antithesis here 

Perl also has excellent documentation, to get a bit more back on topic here.


----------



## chessguy64 (Jan 1, 2023)

Profighost said:


> I am reading books about
> how to improve my reading speed.



The thing is, without a very high rate of retention in what you read (~80% or higher) and being able to actually remember what you read, speed reading in itself is pretty useless. You achieve this retention through mental markers, and using other long term memory tools like mind maps and memory palaces. I wouldn't waste your time reading any books about speed reading, because there's a lot of bad ones out there that teach it the wrong way. Instead check out the "Become a SuperLearner 2" course. This will help you both improve your memory greatly and read faster. It has video lessons, games, and exercises.

I can remember 10/10 items from a grocery list I made at least 4 months ago. Easily and almost instantly. I never wrote anything down on paper or digitally. In fact I never even went to the store and bought the things on the list. The whole process took about 2 minutes when I created the list so I could remember it with 100% accuracy to this day. Keep in mind I haven't thought about the list once in 4 months.


----------



## xedos832 (Jan 1, 2023)

Absolute FreeBSD​





*FreeBSD Mastery Jails*:


----------



## reddy (Jan 1, 2023)

Phishfry said:


> Ahh yea Satanic computer ritual manual. Lisp included. What are all those funky symbols for?
> No wonder people don't code. MIT is wacked. Do you wear the robe too?



I know this was meant as a joke to some extent, but we have this very concern with FreeBSD. Our organization (a multinational corporation) is Christian at its root and people often look at me with a WTF face when they see me browse a website with a daemon at the top, or - even more disturbing for them - when they see the devil appear when a computer is turned on. 

This may sound funny (and it is even for me to be honest) but this is a huge and very serious concern for us. Especially since we have an ambitious vision and people can be superstitious in these spheres. Namely, we are worried about seeing non-sense rumors such as: "they've sold their soul to the devil and are part of a new world order conspiracy to pervert Christianity. If you turn on their computers, you'll even see a 666 code appear".

We've been weighting our options and have determined that before implementing our plan to put FreeBSD on as many servers and workstations as possible across our organization, we'll have to choose between putting together a "distro" to change the branding of FreeBSD (basically a pkg adding some customization to the base system - boot logo etc...), or proposing + sponsoring a logo change to the FreeBSD project. We err on the side of the custom package.

This logo thing is one of the rare aspects I find unfortunate about FreeBSD. I get the allusion to forking, but maybe this joke has been developed a bit too far and the project would benefit from having a more neutral branding from are a religious perspective.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Jan 1, 2023)

It's not a devil, it's a daemon and it's a friendly one. His name is beasty.


----------



## reddy (Jan 1, 2023)

Alain De Vos said:


> It's not a devil, it's a daemon and it's a friendly one. His name is beasty.


First impressions are first impressions.


----------



## Phishfry (Jan 1, 2023)

I have this on the top of my book stack.
"FreeBSD Device Drivers" by Joseph Kong





						FreeBSD Device Drivers
					

FreeBSD Device Drivers is the first and only book to teach readers how to develop device drivers for the FreeBSD operating system.




					nostarch.com
				



Maybe I will learn to code one day and get to use it.


----------



## Phishfry (Jan 1, 2023)

reddy said:


> First impressions are first impressions.


While I agree that Beastie seems unprofessional to me there is nobody that really seems offended.
Lucas dresses Beastie up in a business suit and that seems dumb to me.
I know its meant to be humorous but you don't see Puffy in a suit.
It is what it is.
Don't let it distract you. The logo can be replaced with your own choices.


----------



## bakul (Jan 1, 2023)

deleted


----------



## _al (Jan 1, 2023)

reddy said:


> I know this was meant as a joke to some extent, but we have this very concern with FreeBSD. Our organization (a multinational corporation) is Christian at its root and people often look at me with a WTF face when they see me browse a website with a daemon at the top, or - even more disturbing for them - when they see the devil appear when a computer is turned on.
> 
> This may sound funny (and it is even for me to be honest) but this is a huge and very serious concern for us. Especially since we have an ambitious vision and people can be superstitious in these spheres. Namely, we are worried about seeing non-sense rumors such as: "they've sold their soul to the devil and are part of a new world order conspiracy to pervert Christianity. If you turn on their computers, you'll even see a 666 code appear".
> 
> ...


A similar story was told in "The Complete FreeBSD 4Ed" (by Greg Lehey) - Part 1 "Introduction", section "The Berkeley daemon".


----------



## Phishfry (Jan 1, 2023)

bakul said:


> deleted


There was no need to delete that comment. I understand the tenor.

A local sports team had thier moniker changed from Washington Redskins to Washington Commanders.
It is a complete joke (for a white guy who is an Eagles fan in Redskin territory).
Dumbing things down for a small offended minority is not ideal.
You can't please all the people all the time.
Heritage counts.


----------



## ProphetOfDoom (Jan 1, 2023)

I'm a Christian and Beastie doesn't upset or offend me. I remember being slightly surprised when I heard that people are wringing their hands over him. It's clearly a harmless joke, although I can understand the concern that conspiracy theorists might point fingers.
When I first heard about the controversy I wracked my brains to think WHO would actually be genuinely distressed by FreeBSD's branding, and I came to the conclusion that maybe PTSD sufferers would? But as has been pointed out, you can't tell the world to stop spinning to accommodate a few people's trauma. Some people are triggered by everyday things like the news; I even remember hearing about a British Iraq veteran who was triggered just by seeing his lunch.
WRT Java's verbosity, I can't help thinking that the guy just thought "public static void" is a cool string of esoteric words and it made him feel good to type them out. Because I thought similarly when I was a teenager and first learning programming. It's very sad.
WrT Kafka, I found The Trial to be a bit meandering and repetitive. His best work IMO was In the Penal Colony. Apparently the torture device ("The Apparatus") described in this book was inspired by music boxes of the time, which read musical notes from punched cards, a sort of precursor to early computers. These devices unnerved Kafka and he somehow anticipated that one day such things could be used to cause great harm. The man was a visionary and it doesn't surprise me at all that he ordered all his fiction to be burned, not published. He saw too much and he knew that and it was uncomfortable for him.


----------



## subnetspider (Jan 1, 2023)

Too many I'm afraid...

Recently I have purchased quite a number of (e-)books (~20) on Tilted Windmill Press and humble bundle because of the collab with No Starch Press.
But my top candidates include:

Absolute OpenBSD, 2nd Edition
Wicked Cool Shell Scripts, 2nd Edition
The Book of PF, 3rd Edition
FreeBSD Mastery - Jails
Last year I already completed *SSH Mastery*, and I am about to finish *Absolute FreeBSD 3rd Edition* soon.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Jan 2, 2023)

reddy said:


> This may sound funny (and it is even for me to be honest) but this is a huge and very serious concern for us.



Just wait till they find out that any computer they run has daemons running in the background. That should really freak them out.
Then they'll find out that Beastie was created by John Lasseter of Pixar who made Toy Story--among others--and their whole world may come crashing down.


----------



## Phishfry (Jan 2, 2023)

How long have people been calling for Beasties cancellation?








						FreeBSD Announces Contest To Replace Daemon Logo - Slashdot
					

An anonymous reader submits "The FreeBSD core team has announced a public competition to design a new logo to replace the current BSD daemon logo. The new logo will be used on the FreeBSD website, software media labels, printed media, hardware equipment, and more. The winner of the contest will...



					bsd.slashdot.org


----------



## chessguy64 (Jan 2, 2023)

Phishfry said:


> I have this on the top of my book stack.
> "FreeBSD Device Drivers" by Joseph Kong
> 
> 
> ...



And now you can put it at the bottom.  I skimmed through the book. Why did you buy this book without already being good at C and knowing UNIX internals ? Starting off as an expert is a quick road to being a beginner.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Jan 2, 2023)

I think the kernel has changed  alot since 2012...


----------



## Profighost (Jan 2, 2023)

chessguy64 said:


> The thing is, without a very high rate of retention in what you read (~80% or higher)


You're almost right.
It doesn't make any sense to read something if you don't remember a thing.

But confusing memory techniques with the reading speed makes no point - not even a shallow general one.

Even with "slow" reading you will not remember everything.
I highly doubt it can be quoted as >80%  (100% means to remember _everything_, every single letter on every page. I doubt either its learnabilty and its usefulness.)

I measured my reading speed - you'll find tests on the internet to get your words per minute (wpm) - and simply decided to increase it,
and did not bought the very first book I accidently stumbled over.
So *it's amazing how you know which books I read* by the short post I made,
and know they are crap.
Fantastic.
Can you teach me that ability?

...pointing to a single commercial course being promoted on websites full of cooky- & blinky-blinky-rubbish (with games and _video_ lessons... - I'm talking _reading_ books!),
...which may not be bad at all.
But so are my books. (At least I think - you know better.)
At least I did not spent 200 $ for them.

While youself


chessguy64 said:


> skimm


through books.

Those books I read
not only says you also need to memorize things, too, (what, by the way, is a pioneering idea - never thought of that)
but also giving memorizing techniques,
and - way more important -
learn _several_ techniques for different kinds of reading, depending on what one reads, what one get out of it,...and how to distinguish.

For example I don't remember my grocery's shopping lists from months ago.
I don't need to. I don't want to.
That's what pen & paper is for.

...I'm out of here.


----------



## chessguy64 (Jan 2, 2023)

Profighost said:


> You're almost right.



Lol no. I am right. 



Profighost said:


> But confusing memory techniques with the reading speed makes no point - not even a shallow general one.



I'm not confused. Those memory techniques are directly related to high retention in speed reading which is why you have to develop your memory FIRST and then learn to speed read. Not just learn to read faster and skip the memory part completely because you think they aren't related. The course I listed will prove this.



Profighost said:


> I highly doubt it can be quoted as >80% (100% means to remember _everything_, every single letter on every page. I doubt either its learnabilty and its usefulness.)



80% or higher of the general concepts and ideas of the book, that you are able to recall quickly through those high quality mental markers that you didn't make. You know.. because memory and speed reading aren't related.  It's a very achievable percentage. No.. i'm not talking about the percentage of words in the book that you memorize.  Trying to memorize every letter on every page is insane, pointless, and just not possible. Is that what you do when you "speed read" ? It doesn't matter what you doubt. What I said is accurate.



Profighost said:


> So *it's amazing how you know which books I read* by the short post I made,
> and know they are crap.



Considering you indicated in your longer post after that you didn't know memory and reading speed were related at all, I think it's safe to say that the "speed reading" books you've been reading are crap.



Profighost said:


> Can you teach me that ability?



I've already taught you a lot. 



Profighost said:


> ...pointing to a single commercial course being promoted on websites full of cooky- & blinky-blinky-rubbish (with games and _video_ lessons... - I'm talking _reading_ books!),



Why are the _video_ lessons effective? Because there's an instructor guiding you through the course explaining everything, and showing in practice how it's done. It's not just about reading words on a page either. In fact the visualization components and techniques play a huge factor in speed reading effectively and retaining what you read. The phrase "a picture is worth 1000 words". The human brain is wired to process visual information much, much better than auditory or any other type of information. This is science. Why are the games effective? Because they develop your skills and reinforce the concepts in a fun way. You're not just playing Call of Duty. But yeah, I'm sure one of the top selling courses ever on Udemy that's gotten amazing reviews.. and has been worked on and perfected for upwards of 10-15 years and a course that I have personally taken and found to be very effective.. is rubbish. Your "speed reading" books are so much better. For everything you learn in the course it's life changing and a bargain at $15. Not everything worthwhile in life is free. This man worked long and hard to develop this quality course and he should be paid for his efforts. Some employers even offer free unlimited Udemy access.


----------



## chessguy64 (Jan 2, 2023)

Profighost said:


> Profighost said:
> 
> 
> > For example I don't remember my grocery's shopping lists from months ago.
> ...


skimm


Profighost said:


> through books.



I should have said preread. I saw enough of the book to know that it's not a first book you read without any knowledge of C or the core concepts of UNIX. That was my point. I never claimed to read and understand the whole book. And when I read a book I don't "skimm" through it. You spelled that verb wrong, btw. And I don't need to remember my grocery shopping list from months ago either. It was an example exercise I did to show the power of memory palaces. If you can't remember 10 things without writing them down your memory is pretty weak. I don't even make lists when I go grocery shopping. I just quickly think of the things I need that I'm missing,  and go buy them.  Good luck with your "speed reading" and not being able to remember much down the road. Thanks for all the laughs.


----------



## patmaddox (Jan 3, 2023)

I love the original SICP. I don't think it's too advanced for most people interested in programming – they build it up, that's the point.

But, "The Little Schemer" is a wonderful book for someone interested in Scheme, that would be good preparation for SICP.


----------



## eternal_noob (Jan 3, 2023)

reddy said:


> This may sound funny


No, this sounds stupid.

Your company should use TempleOS then. It even is written in HolyC.


----------



## reddy (Jan 3, 2023)

eternal_noob said:


> No, this sounds stupid.
> 
> Your company should use TempleOS then. It even is written in HolyC.


While you have misunderstood our internal views and feelings on this question, I have a sense it doesn't actually matter to you and you were more interested in trying to be funny and offensive. I hope you are proud and satisfied. 

Other replies were insightful and added to the discussion in a friendly manner despite sharing your underlying view. This is called being professional, let's be professional on this forum, this is not reddit. 

Without being thin-skinned, calling people stupid and deriding religious beliefs in a single post crosses quite a couple of boundaries, and whatever you were trying to achieve with this certainly doesn't contribute to adding value to this forum or discussion. Let's let this thread get back on topic, as it already started to do.


----------



## ProphetOfDoom (Jan 3, 2023)

I was lucky enough to get this a couple years back. A hard copy. (The ebook messes up all the mathematical symbols so is useless). I've admittedly only read one chapter but simply having it around the place gives me a warm feeling in my heart!


----------



## Crivens (Jan 3, 2023)

ProphetOfDoom First or second volume? I only have the second one, and I want to get the old ones when I can.
I also have the unfinished last volume of Knuth here, but that is not an easy read.


----------



## ProphetOfDoom (Jan 3, 2023)

Crivens I wasn't aware there was a second volume - do you mean edition? It doesn't appear to say anywhere but it does say "reprinted with corrections March 1988" so I'm almost certain it's the first edition. I may as well upload a couple more photos. There's one that looks identical on www.amazon.co.uk that's from '86... and I mean literally one copy, lol.


----------



## ProphetOfDoom (Jan 3, 2023)

Maybe I'm contradicting myself by saying "reprinted first edition" but I just meant it's the original not the revised one.


----------



## Crivens (Jan 3, 2023)

I know this as a two volume set. Volume one covers parsing and syntax, volume two covers code generation and optimizations.


----------



## Erichans (Jan 3, 2023)

ProphetOfDoom said:


> Crivens I wasn't aware there was a second volume - do you mean edition?


I think Crivens is referring to the "pre-dragon" books about compiling:

 The Theory of Parsing, Translation, and Compiling - Volume I: Parsing
 The Theory of Parsing, Translation, and Compiling - Volume II: Compiling 
A pdf of the combined books has been made available by the ACM digital library: The theory of parsing, translation, and compiling - January 1972

Their successors are the three dragon books also known as: the _green dragon book_, the _red dragon book_ and the _purple dragon book_; see Principles of Compiler Design.

BTW, those are quite big reads and heavy study material. At my university we used another book and an accompanying laboratory environment where we designed our own (mini) programming language and implemented a scanner, parser and code generator by means of attribute grammars. For the advanced compiler course we used the red dragon book. 

If you are to embark on a voyage of compiler learning on your own, I'd suggest starting with a simpler and less detailed book that would enable you to write your own compiler for a simple language with a simulated machine code interpreter. It is quite an experience to write a compiler, even if not for a full fledged programming language. A lot of computer science aspects and skills are needed when creating one. Happy learning for the new year!


----------



## eternal_noob (Jan 3, 2023)

reddy
Just don't call religion funny. This shit is responsible for too much harm on this planet.

I just tried to make a joke because otherwise i get angry if i read about such #_&7(-€@':' people.

Having a custom package to remove Beastie from FreeBSD because "he's the Devil" is the most ridiculous thing i've read here.



This is not funny in any way and i am afraid of the minds that make this shit up. These people can't be trusted.


----------



## ProphetOfDoom (Jan 3, 2023)

I keep meaning to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson. Has anyone read it? I have the first book, Red Mars, on my Google Play Books, but I was too busy being mentally ill to read it.


----------



## gotnull (Jan 3, 2023)

This one should be the next one.
Since other than Michael W.Lucas I don't know any other author writing about BSD OSes or FBSD specifically, I stick with him, so far I am not disappointed even if sometimes I wish deeper explanations, most of the time it's fine.
I also plan to read books he wrote about OBSD, but that's for latter, for now I am focus on FBSD and there are lot of things to understand for my brain


----------



## mer (Jan 3, 2023)

Ok, the Logo.  Long time ago, wife and I were out and about, I was wearing one of the Classic T-shirts and got a stink-eye from a member of a religion (he was wearing a collar).  Casual conversation while waiting for food (wife was at a table), I start getting the "devil, blah blah blah".  I simply said, "You are familiar with classic Greek literature?"  Yes, I am  "Ahh then you know the difference between a daemon and a devil, yes?"  Bug eyed look as a response.  "It's a computer operating system where a bunch of processes work together to help the user get something useful done."  More bug eyed response.  "besides, he's smiling, he's soft and fluffy and huggable, isn't he?"  Silence for a couple of seconds, then a big grin and a laugh, acknowledging I had a point.  
I closed with "Just don't feed them after midnight" (from the movie Gremlins).


----------



## free-and-bsd (Jan 3, 2023)

fernandel said:


> From  high school once a year I am reading Jaroslav Hasek - The Good Solder Svejk. It is the best anti war book for me and waiting for January. Now I am toward the end of Zola Paris and half of the Dostoyevsky Idiot and Kafka's The trial is done.


My goodness, I used to piss my ass off reading Svejk back in school (at history lessons). My granddad also liked this stuff,  for he himself had served as an officer in Austrian army during WWI.


----------



## free-and-bsd (Jan 3, 2023)

eternal_noob said:


> reddy
> Just don't call religion funny. This shit is responsible for too much harm on this planet.
> 
> I just tried to make a joke because otherwise i get angry if i read about such #_&7(-€@':' people.
> ...


I think  it's not so much about religion, in the meaning ppl use this word. It's rather about orthodoxy and intolerance with everything that's different.

When I read some evolutionist stuff, I can't help but see more religion than science in their reasoning. It's not science to blame here -- it's ppl who use it. Weapon (or any tool for that matter) is only as good as the hand wielding it. So it is with science. So it is with religion.


----------



## gotnull (Jan 3, 2023)

mer said:


> Ok, the Logo.  Long time ago, wife and I were out and about, I was wearing one of the Classic T-shirts and got a stink-eye from a member of a religion (he was wearing a collar).  Casual conversation while waiting for food (wife was at a table), I start getting the "devil, blah blah blah".  I simply said, "You are familiar with classic Greek literature?"  Yes, I am  "Ahh then you know the difference between a daemon and a devil, yes?"  Bug eyed look as a response.  "It's a computer operating system where a bunch of processes work together to help the user get something useful done."  More bug eyed response.  "besides, he's smiling, he's soft and fluffy and huggable, isn't he?"  Silence for a couple of seconds, then a big grin and a laugh, acknowledging I had a point.
> I closed with "Just don't feed them after midnight" (from the movie Gremlins).


Yes, after all a logo is just a picture, it doesn't change the product's quality which is way more important.


----------



## free-and-bsd (Jan 3, 2023)

Alain De Vos said:


> In these dark days, which book do you plan to read.
> [For me by coincidence a programming book :
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, I"ve already started )))


----------



## BobSlacker (Jan 3, 2023)

Phishfry said:


> How long have people been calling for Beasties cancellation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love him and I don't understand I people loose time with this. If one really get bordered by this, one should use another OS or go to terapy to understand why a mascot can have so much power over his/hers feelings. Just saying.


----------



## free-and-bsd (Jan 4, 2023)

eternal_noob said:


> reddy
> Just don't call religion funny. This shit is responsible for too much harm on this planet.
> 
> View attachment 15326


BTW, I hope you realize that this Beastie actually WAS NOT invented by FreeBSD team? 
Whether you like it or not, this IS actually a modified image of what many ppl believe "demons" look like ))) 
Small half-beast creatures with horns, tails, hooves, tridents... Others don't actually believe, but they KNOW this is how "devils" are supposed to look like.

Now think about it. If you dislike and distrust religion as much as you say, would you really want to use a logo that would turn many ppls imagination back to some _religious_ imagery? How _relevant_ is it to your product?

Not if you want to promote your product for wider usage. I guess, FreeBSD's mission has _nothing to do_ with religion, does it? Well in that case it would make much sense to make its logo religion-neutral as well... It is much easier to do than change ppl's thinking that has been formed by decades, even centuries.


----------



## eternal_noob (Jan 4, 2023)

I just tend to ignore religion unless folks throw it at my face. But then it's the problem of those, not mine.

I don't care if FreeBSD had a cross or Jesus' penis as a logo. It's just a fricking sequence of bytes.

People who are offended by a bunch of 0s and 1s in a particular order should be thinking about seeing a doctor.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Jan 4, 2023)

Agreed. Openbsd has a blowfish. (Pun intended)


----------



## _al (Jan 4, 2023)

ProphetOfDoom said:


> View attachment 15323
> I was lucky enough to get this a couple years back. A hard copy. (The ebook messes up all the mathematical symbols so is useless). I've admittedly only read one chapter but simply having it around the place gives me a warm feeling in my heart!



I have the second edition (in Russian). Excellent book. It helped me a lot while writing a special C preprocessor for the needs of our programmers.


----------



## Crivens (Jan 4, 2023)

BobSlacker said:


> I love him and I don't understand I people loose time with this. If one really get bordered by this, one should use another OS or go to terapy to understand why a mascot can have so much power over his/hers feelings. Just saying.


That seems to be a big part of the problem. Once upon a time you had to worry about screaming your head off while being eaten alive by a pack of apex predators. Today, life is so safe and boring you need to worry about screaming your head off at people misgendering you - or someone else. Or hurt some feelings. Or practice wrongthink. What's next? Maybe we should all read things like "1984", "The Gulag Archipelago", or "Nothing New In The West". Heck, it was mandantory reading when I went to school (not the gulag, but you will understand once you read it. That is not for kids.).


----------



## _al (Jan 4, 2023)

When I went to school, "1984" and "The Gulag Archipelago" were banned, and for reading "The Gulag Archipelago" they could be expelled from school...


----------



## Crivens (Jan 4, 2023)

The Gulag is available as audio book on YT. I thought it may be easier to stomach that way, but no. That was part of my "do something inconvenient every so often" routine. And it was too much.


----------



## eternal_noob (Jan 4, 2023)

School Bans Harry Potter Books After Citing Risk Of 'Conjuring Evil Spirits'
					

Harry Potter books have been expelled from a private Catholic school in Tennessee after the school's pastor said they could cause a reader to conjure "evil spirits."




					www.cbsnews.com
				






> The curses and spells used in the books are actual curses and spells; which when read by a human being risk conjuring evil spirits into the presence of the person reading the text



No comment.


----------



## Crivens (Jan 4, 2023)

eternal_noob said:


> School Bans Harry Potter Books After Citing Risk Of 'Conjuring Evil Spirits'
> 
> 
> Harry Potter books have been expelled from a private Catholic school in Tennessee after the school's pastor said they could cause a reader to conjure "evil spirits."
> ...


Oh, but yes. My comment, ahm, command is "Look for a better school". But please not one where they have queer story hour with rainbow furries reading storys they like to toddlers.


----------



## Grell (Jan 4, 2023)

I don't think it is appropriate to bash religion on this forum.  Not everyone has the same views as each other.  You may hate Christianity, that doesn't mean your views apply to everyone else.  I for one am a Christian and I  remember making my avatar a picture of the Bible and I was forced to change it.  I don't think religion (or opposition to it for that matter) has a place on these forums.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Jan 4, 2023)

I don't bash religion. I bash abusive being offended.
I'm agnostic, meaning i don't consider myself to be in to place to be able to answer certain questions.
At the same time i believe everything ought to be discussed even atheism.
Discussion allow us to grow as a person and move society forward.


----------



## bakul (Jan 4, 2023)

I agree with Grell. Can we please avoid any religion related discussion here? [FWIW this is why I deleted my inane attempt at humor earlier in the thread]


----------



## eternal_noob (Jan 4, 2023)

Religion has no place on Earth at all. All this bullshit prevents the human race from living in peace together.






						Category:Religion-based wars - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## gotnull (Jan 4, 2023)

let's talk about books then 
I don't know if some are interested in this but Michael W.Lucas released a book just few days ago, fun fact it's the same subject than the book I bought recently but for this time OS is OBSD.

edit: 
Stay cool guys it's only a conversation, don't need to offend anyone.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Thursday at 12:29 AM)

This thread is descend and  polite. Let's keep it so.


----------



## eternal_noob (Thursday at 12:52 AM)

I became a monster while fighting monsters. I apologize.

Friedrich knew better so i changed my signature in honor of him.

Maybe i will read a book about his work if i find the spare time.


----------



## cracauer@ (Thursday at 1:50 AM)

The religious thing we need here is a good, solid vi versus emacs flamewar.


----------



## eternal_noob (Thursday at 1:56 AM)

emacs is a fine operating system but it lacks a good editor.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Thursday at 1:57 AM)

The developer of emacs was of the religion, unix commands have to do simple things very good. And then he developed emacs, which is everything except simple.
[And so I believe in neovim]


----------



## eternal_noob (Thursday at 2:00 AM)

Richard Stallman – Saint IGNUcius, Church of Emacs






> _Warning:_ taking the Church of Emacs (or any church) too seriously may be hazardous to your health.


----------



## Grell (Thursday at 2:43 AM)

What is the official opinion on this matter?  Is religion on/off limits?  I was told not to have a Bible as my avatar which seems like a double standard if someone else is allowed to have a Christian cross with a prohibition symbol on it.  I can talk to you about my faith if you'd like.  I don't see the point in arguing about it on an Internet forum.


----------



## eternal_noob (Thursday at 2:47 AM)

Grell said:


> have a Christian cross with a prohibition symbol on it


It's the logo of my favourite punk band, nothing to see here.





_View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=12kcpP-8jfM_









						Bad Religion
					

Official Bad Religion Website.




					badreligion.com


----------



## Alain De Vos (Thursday at 4:13 AM)

Grell said:


> What is the official opinion on this matter?  Is religion on/off limits?  I was told not to have a Bible as my avatar which seems like a double standard if someone else is allowed to have a Christian cross with a prohibition symbol on it.  I can talk to you about my faith if you'd like.  I don't see the point in arguing about it on an Internet forum.


Note , the fact that you speak about a double standard inherently proves you want to argue on an internet forum.
But I would like to refrase the question as follow, does the need for an official opinion proves that adult&mature people are inherently not capable to reason ?


----------



## eternal_noob (Thursday at 4:23 AM)

The official opinion on this is


> The FreeBSD forums aim to build and maintain a friendly and co-operative user community. As such, you agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, political, religious, threatening, sexually-orientated or otherwise divisive or combative material, or anything that may violate any applicable laws.











						FreeBSD Forums Rules
					

This section contains general FreeBSD Forums rules which should be followed by all members in order to keep the quality of these forums on a high level.  Though many of the FreeBSD development members read this forum, we cannot always guarantee that we will get to your questions in a timely...




					forums.freebsd.org
				




Suggesting to remove Beastie from FreeBSD because "he is the Devil" is vulgar, slanderous, hateful, political and religious.


----------



## Grell (Thursday at 4:47 AM)

Well, if we are allowed to discuss religion (at least until this thread gets closed), I'll put in my two cents, since it seems like the other side has put in theirs (mind you all this is off the top of my head):

I believe in Jesus Christ, that He died on the cross for forgiveness of my sins
I believe in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
I believe that the Bible is God's perfect, inerrant Word, in its original writings
I believe in Creation, that God created Man, Earth and the whole Universe, and that he did not use evolution to do so
I believe in a literal Devil, and literal demons under his command, whose purpose is to lead men astray from salvation through tempting them to sin

I believe that dying without Christ as your Savior will lead one to an eternity in Hell
I believe to receive the gift of eternal life in Heaven one must accept Jesus as Savior and repent (turn away from) from sin









Jesus Christ is the *ONLY* way to Heaven

Does this offend you?


----------



## Alain De Vos (Thursday at 5:21 AM)

Not at all. We live in a free world. And everybody has right on his opinion and worldview.


----------



## eternal_noob (Thursday at 12:10 PM)

Grell said:


> Jesus Christ is the *ONLY* way to Heaven


There are airplanes and helicopters, too.

I find it sick that you guys worship an instrument of torture, btw.



Grell said:


> Does this offend you?


No, i have pity on you.



Alain De Vos said:


> everybody has right on his opinion and worldview.


I wish you were right. But unfortunately, this right only exists on paper.

There are too much groups that censor free speech, burn the "wrong" books and want to mute people with other opinions.


----------



## fjdlr (Thursday at 12:35 PM)

Hi guys
On 2023:
Mythos: The Greek Myths Retold par Stephen Fry
Rome la fin d'un Empire (Rome, the end of an empire) by Claire Sotinel (in french)
and
Pensées de Blaise Pascal (1670)
Just to forget this sad universe
​


----------



## Tracker (Thursday at 2:14 PM)

Anyone has any opinions on Haskell? Tried to learn 3 times but everytime I get back to square one


----------



## eternal_noob (Thursday at 2:35 PM)

Didn't know that Haskell is still a thing. I'd start here: https://wiki.haskell.org/Learning_Haskell


----------



## Alain De Vos (Thursday at 3:00 PM)

Tracker said:


> Anyone has any opinions on Haskell? Tried to learn 3 times but everytime I get back to square one


Give Ocaml a try ?


----------



## bakul (Thursday at 3:21 PM)

I like Haskell but haven’t done any serious programming in it. If you are comfortable with some mathematics it will be easier. My Haskell books are 15 years or older and there may be more recent online resources. This one sounds promising but I haven’t dug into it: https://lhbg-book.link/ This looks good too: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ I like language books that teach with examples.


----------



## freezr (Thursday at 6:10 PM)

Santa brought me "Absolute FreeBSD"


----------



## Tracker (Thursday at 7:59 PM)

Alain De Vos said:


> Give Ocaml a try ?


Don't know - for me Haskell is sort of an intellectual pursuit of sorts. And despite having failed 3 times I still feel like I should get back to it - but definitely don't tend to stick around. Maybe it's just my approach that needs to be refined.


eternal_noob said:


> Didn't know that Haskell is still a thing. I'd start here: https://wiki.haskell.org/Learning_Haskell


Seems like a rabbit hole - too much material there haha.


bakul said:


> I like Haskell but haven’t done any serious programming in it. If you are comfortable with some mathematics it will be easier. My Haskell books are 15 years or older and there may be more recent online resources. This one sounds promising but I haven’t dug into it: https://lhbg-book.link/ This looks good too: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ I like language books that teach with examples.


Have given lyah a try - apparently wasn't as good beyond the very basics.


freezr said:


> Santa brought me "Absolute FreeBSD"


Reading this too - on and off.


----------



## bakul (Thursday at 8:55 PM)

Tracker said:


> And despite having failed 3 times I still feel like I should get back to it


Was it due to the books you used, lack of focused time learning it or something else? And why do you feel you should get back to it? There are so many intellectual topics you can pursue….


----------



## Tracker (Thursday at 10:25 PM)

bakul said:


> Was it due to the books you used, lack of focused time learning it or something else? And why do you feel you should get back to it? There are so many intellectual topics you can pursue….


If I have to be honest I think it's lack of self-discipline and focus .... although I did end up using a single book for the majority of the part. I feel like I need to get back to it because I like the succinctness .... some of the concepts I came to know about were also interesting (although I'm sure other languages also have them) like - currying, infinite lists, lazy evaluation .... Maybe I should give it another shot.

Yes, you're right - there are many intellectual topics - would love to be inspired to pick up something else! (at the expense of the current pursuit  )


----------



## bgrant (Friday at 10:20 PM)

ProphetOfDoom said:


> I keep meaning to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson. Has anyone read it? I have the first book, Red Mars, on my Google Play Books, but I was too busy being mentally ill to read it.



I recommend the Mars Trilogy (actually 4 books).  It had some interesting characters and story lines.  Also recommend other KSR books like the Three Californias Trilogy, Icehenge and Antarctica.

I have an opinion on the religion discussion but I would prefer to stay on topic of the thread and take the religion discussion to a different thread (assuming it is even allowed here).


----------



## Alain De Vos (Friday at 10:50 PM)

Please enlighten us on your personal religion opinion. Atheist/Jew/Christian/Muslim, we are adult human beings.
Maybe i have another opinion, but that's part of the interesting part.


----------



## Grell (Friday at 10:52 PM)

Will there be a civil discussion or will there be ad hominem insults being lunged at people?  Because it seems like my views are not tolerated.

I already stated my beliefs, I have very little else to say about them.

People must feel safe to explain their beliefs without feeling like they will get attacked if they do so.

Alain De Vos: What do you believe?​


----------



## Alain De Vos (Friday at 11:09 PM)

What will , will & what I believe I have explained this in my previous posts.




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc_


----------



## bakul (Friday at 11:16 PM)

Why don't you start a separate thread if you want to discuss religion rather than continue on a thread about books?


----------



## Alain De Vos (Saturday at 12:28 AM)

Wise question. I have here a book called "the scheme programming language". But it is too thick. Brevity is a nice asset.


----------



## eternal_noob (Saturday at 12:28 AM)

bakul said:


> start a separate thread if you want to discuss religion


Not a good idea. In the end someone will cry and people get banned.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Saturday at 12:31 AM)

On this i have a good one,




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElXi7yDHyWo_


----------



## chessguy64 (Saturday at 12:33 AM)

eternal_noob said:


> Religion has no place on Earth at all. All this bullshit prevents the human race from living in peace together.



That is such a stretch that it's hard to believe you are being serious in saying that. I grew up Catholic, and in the Bible it says that it's wrong to steal and kill. So in my religion it was taught that you should not do these things because they are morally wrong. And if it happens, you should admit your faults, feel bad about it (confession) and try not to do it in the future. This are good principles to live your life by. I haven't been to church in 10 years (or longer), but even today as someone not overly religious there's still value in what religion teaches, as a model on how to live your life well and not end up in prison. This applies whether you follow your religion to a tee, or you are not religious at all. Nevermind the laundry list of all the other religions and what they teach that you have discounted, including Buddhism. And even if there was no religion at all, innate human nature would prevent the entire world from living in peace. That's a fairy tale. It will never happen. You talk about a package for removing a mascot being vulgar and hateful, yet insult other people's beliefs, and then change your profile icon to something that can easily offend devout Christians, and something that has no purpose other than to create controversy based on your own ignorance. Step outside yourself for a minute. I mean.. what is your goal here? This is a technical forum for an OS. To share info and learn, not just to berate people in the most unoriginal way possible. All this has nothing to do with FreeBSD, or even computers in general. And one more thing ->

Do you plan to read the Bible?


----------



## eternal_noob (Saturday at 12:36 AM)

chessguy64 said:


> Do you plan to read the Bible?


I rip them to pieces everytime i see one.


----------



## chessguy64 (Saturday at 12:42 AM)

Sometimes you can't even lead a horse to water. lol.


----------



## eternal_noob (Saturday at 12:45 AM)

Well, this thread is about books, so i only answered your question about books.


----------



## chessguy64 (Saturday at 12:51 AM)

eternal_noob said:


> Well, this thread is about books, so i only answered your question about books.



Yeah, I get it. You're a genius. This isn't reddit.


----------



## eternal_noob (Saturday at 12:59 AM)

I don't think we'll come to a conclusion here.

You and i have very different views on that matter and there's no point to try to convince each other.

This won't work.


----------



## bakul (Saturday at 1:09 AM)

Alain De Vos said:


> Wise question. I have here a book called "the scheme programming language". But it is too thick. Brevity is a nice asset.


Start with R5RS (50 pages). Skip 7.2 (formal semantics) if you don't want to learn about Denotational Semantics. Using a decent interpreter like lang/chez-scheme, learn by trying out everything they talk about in the report and Bob's your uncle!


----------



## bakul (Saturday at 1:13 AM)

eternal_noob said:


> Not a good idea. In the end someone will cry and people get banned.


So hijacking a book thread is a better idea?


----------



## Alain De Vos (Saturday at 1:13 AM)

Thanks, here was a link,


			https://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf


----------



## eternal_noob (Saturday at 1:15 AM)

bakul said:


> So hijacking a book thread is a better idea?


No. I think all this talk about religion should be deleted anyway.

This is a mostly technical forum, there are better places to talk about (violent) fairy tales.

I am surprised this thread hasn't been cleaned up yet, since it's clearly against the rules.


----------



## chessguy64 (Saturday at 5:23 AM)

I've already read it, but this is a very good book.


----------



## Voltaire (Saturday at 12:01 PM)

I have some books by Camus, Dostoevsky, Kafka and Molière that I'm reading. But there are books that seem very good to me but that I don't have yet, such as the following:

Thus Spoke Zarathustra - Friedrich Nietzsche
Parallel Lives - Plutarch
May - Karel Hynek Mácha
Either/Or: A Fragment of Life - Søren Kierkegaard
Critique of Judgment - Immanuel Kant

There is also a book I wanted to read but I forgot the title. I know that it is a book written by a Brazilian or Portuguese writer and that the story of the book has to do with Hamlet (Shakespeare). But I don't remember any more, and I haven't been able to find which book this is exactly.


----------



## Voltaire (Saturday at 2:26 PM)

I've done some research on this book that I can't remember the title of and I think it is the book _If We Were Villains_.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30319086-if-we-were-villains


----------



## Vull (Saturday at 7:13 PM)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61535.The_Selfish_Gene


----------



## Grell (Saturday at 11:23 PM)

This is a decent programming book which applies to FreeBSD as well, not just Linux.  I see it as the successor to W. Richard Stevens'  "Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment"









						The Linux Programming Interface - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




also
Dominion: The Nature of Diabolic Warfare by Father Chad A. Ripperger​https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60587761-dominion​
As well as the Bible, currently in 1 Chronicles.


----------



## eternal_noob (Sunday at 12:02 AM)

Linux and exorcism in one post. I like


----------



## Grell (Sunday at 12:10 AM)

Cool man, the truth is in the Bible, check it out.  Let's keep this about books though and not derail this thread anymore though okay?


----------



## eternal_noob (Sunday at 12:24 AM)

I restrain myself and keep calm.

Exorcism is dangerous and a lot of people died. Posting such books is pretty extreme, imho.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Sunday at 1:05 AM)

Any book put out by John Sandford specifically in the Prey series. Lucas Davenport and Virgil Flowers for the win!
I've read every book in the series. If you start with the first one, it's more grizzly, more fun, better jokes and great adventures that will capture you on the first page, though the first books are somewhat dated (such as floppy disks for the computers).

For those who are aware, the Letty book sucked.


----------



## Vull (Sunday at 2:23 AM)

The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
					

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (sometimes shortened to Fall of the Roman Empire) is a book of history written by...



					www.goodreads.com


----------



## ProphetOfDoom (Sunday at 10:44 AM)

I've also read Hacking: The Art of Exploitation and I was a bit disappointed because, well, true to its title I guess, it is more about thinking like a hacker and finding one's own exploits, than about practical use of the available tools.
I can't help thinking that in a professional environment, where one employee compromises or secures the system, and the other sits and reads source code in the hope of a eureka moment, the former employee is going to get the promotion.
But i guess that was really to do with my faulty expectations and how I like to learn.


----------



## ProphetOfDoom (Sunday at 11:34 AM)

I'm about a third of the way through this book and it's really good. The explanation of linear classifiers (algorithms to tell apart dog and cat photos for example) was actually a lot better than some university course materials i read. Unfortunately my brain is a LIFO structure with limited RAM so it's already discarded a lot of the material. I'm soldiering on with it though.


----------



## chessguy64 (Sunday at 12:38 PM)

ProphetOfDoom said:


> I've also read Hacking: The Art of Exploitation and I was a bit disappointed because, well, true to its title I guess, it is more about thinking like a hacker and finding one's own exploits, than about practical use of the available tools.
> I can't help thinking that in a professional environment, where one employee compromises or secures the system, and the other sits and reads source code in the hope of a eureka moment, the former employee is going to get the promotion.
> But i guess that was really to do with my faulty expectations and how I like to learn.



It explains what type of book it is within the first few pages. You don't have to read through 450+ pages to know that. Most companies don't pay their employees to read source code all day. They want results, which is why employee #1 is more valued.

I'm not going to get disappointed if I read an entire book on cooking, if I have no interest in cooking or don't have any plan to make any of those recipes, just because the book doesn't give me any tips on fixing problems with my car. I knew what I was getting into, and they are two different books.


----------



## ProphetOfDoom (Sunday at 2:08 PM)

Well yeah, I already said my expectations were wrong, so there was no need to tell me my expectations were wrong. I thought the book would teach how systems are exploited generally. Instead it teaches about crafting exploits, which is is a pretty niche kind of playful puzzle-solving (that most people are not very good at) and brittle-ly relies on someone else having made a mistake that no-one else but you has spotted. I just think that that topic (crafting exploits) has a _much _more narrow appeal than the broader topic of actually getting this stuff done. And I mistakenly thought that the book was about the one topic, when it was about the other. I remarked on it because I think most people would see the title of the book and think it would make them a hacker.


----------



## chessguy64 (Sunday at 3:17 PM)

ProphetOfDoom said:


> I thought the book would teach how systems are exploited generally. Instead it teaches about crafting exploits



How does learning to write exploits NOT make you a hacker but learning to run tools does ? (lol) I think you're confused on what hacking actually is. You don't seem that into programming. After mastering the concepts and techniques in this book, reading something like "Hacking Exposed" is a walk in the park. I don't think people are that naive, where they think they can read a single book and it will make them a hacker. Teenagers maybe. Again.. the entire book is about programming in C / asm and I don't understand how you couldn't realize that halfway through the book... That you had to read up until the last page to come to the realization "oh this wasn't what I thought it was going to be." That just makes me think you didn't actually read the book.


----------



## chessguy64 (Sunday at 4:05 PM)

ProphetOfDoom said:


> which is is a pretty niche kind of playful puzzle-solving (that most people are not very good at) and brittle-ly relies on someone else having made a mistake that no-one else but you has spotted.



Crafting exploits.. that could get you root access on a server. "Playful". harmless. Can you stop downplaying the book now with this drivel ? It doesn't really make any sense and it's misleading to anyone reading this thread that might be interested in reading a great book on serious hacking. It's not going to appeal to script kiddies but who really cares about that? Let them read "How to be an 31337 Hax0r in 7 days without learning programming".


----------



## Voltaire (Monday at 10:19 AM)

chessguy64 said:


> Most companies don't pay their employees to read source code all day. They want results, which is why employee #1 is more valued.


They also want staff to remain easily replaceable. And your company should not be too dependent on one person, if that person disappears, your company should not get into trouble. Which is why you often have work that is done by several people when it could actually be done by one person. The current system of bonuses for people who work hard is purely artificial. Ultimately, the reasoning is that people who are more productive would be more entitled to financial compensation. But if you analyze this a little deeper, you see that it is not really about productivity at all.

For example, look at the popularity of Java, Lua, JavaScript, PHP, Visual Basic, Ruby, Ada and Python.
Is any of the above languages as expressive as Clojure, Vala, Emacs Lisp, Racket, Groovy, Rebol, Prolog, CoffeeScript, etc. ?

How can you be equally productive and useful in a programming language that is much less expressive?
You often also see that there are people who are intellectually at a completely different level than 99.9% of the university professors. Think Nikola Tesla and Ernest Lawrence.

If I remember correctly, Nikola Tesla struggled to find a job in the early years of his career. Doesn't this say enough? It means that most people get paid even though their work could very easily be done much more efficiently with more qualitative and advanced results.


----------

