# Dream Setup



## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

Hello! I've been itching to get my hands on a machine to install FreeBSD on, for about a year now. During this time I've stumbled upon three laptops and two stationary computers, non of which were capable of running the system (You guessed it - driver problems  ). The point is, I think I've been going about this the wrong way. Instead of trying random parts and hoping for them to be compatible with FreeBSD, I've decided I'm going to specifically tailor the hardware to the system. And what better way to get plausible options than to ask the community (or what I've been doing so far, checking the compatible hardware benchmarks from the hardware notes for 13.0 but as you can imagine there are a lot of options)?
What I'm interested in is a laptop. And I've seen:
https://wiki.freebsd.org/Laptops
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-do-i-find-a-laptop-fully-compatible-with-freebsd.68670
http://laptop.bsdgroup.de
The thing is, when I say laptop what I really mean, is portable computer 
And from the above, I only saw one that spoke to me (the Thinkpad T480), but when I looked at the price I almost fell off my chair considering the parts inside it:
Integrated graphics (bleh), average cpu , and worst of all, by default shipped with Win10, which I would end up wiping anyway.
So imagine you had 1520$ to spend, to create your portable dream machine that is fully compatible with FreeBSD, what parts would you use to build it?
(Yes, I'm asking for the parts, not specific laptop models (anymore  - I've spent too much time on that).
And I am hell-bent on getting a fully working laptop even if it means I will have to make a case for it myself, even if it means I'll have to carry my 'portable' computer in a suitcase  )
Here are some guidelines for the 'shopping' list:

Wireless adapter,
Bluetooth adapter,
Dedicated GPU (preferably nvidia, NOT integrated, and NOT some weird hybrid autobot either   )
Ethernet adapter,
Sound card with phone jack (3.5mm) (NO built-in mic!),
Relatively portable monitor (not larger than 20inch in diameter),
Good battery (at least 2h of work time),
Good CPU (this would have to be the crown jewel),
No touchpad required (An external mouse will do  ),
At least one USB type C,
At least one USB 3.0 or higher,
At least 16GB of ram,
Some storage device (either HDD or SSD but at least 200GB no RAID required).

Any ideas would be sincerely appreciated


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## sidetone (Sep 22, 2021)

You don't need to spend much for a desktop. A monitor under 20" will be under $150, and that will be reused as long as they last. You can use your stationary monitor or television as a secondary (dual or duplicate output) display for your laptops.

SSD harddisks are cheap. For this, get new ones meant for important file storage. This will be good for both laptops and desktops.

For the desktop, go with an AMD motherboard and CPU that are supported, as recently it has been outperforming Intel in price, power usage and processing power. Compatible CPU's can be switched out. A used one would be good for this. Sound hardware comes on most motherboards, and they're pretty standard.

Integrated AMD CPU GPU, are unlike what's been common knowledge of the 90's to use a dedicated card. Modern integrated CPU's GPU's actually work well. A supported Ryzen would be the only integrated CPU/GPU to go with for now. I don't remember the AMD equivalent that's only a CPU.

For Bluetooth, use a usb dongle, so this can be interchanged as needed. FreeBSD only supports Bluetooth v1.1 and v2, plus newer versions for audio only Bluetooth devices. You can also use dongles for wifi.

For the desktop, use the cases and power supplies you already have, provided they aren't too old to support the motherboard.


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## Geezer (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> During this time I've stumbled upon three laptops and two stationary computers, non of which were capable of running the system (You guessed it - driver problems



That is incredibly back luck, and statistically improbable. I have got Freebsd running with DE on every single machine that I have tried.


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

sidetone said:


> You don't need to spend much for a desktop. A monitor under 20" will be under $150, and that will be reused as long as they last. You can use your stationary monitor or television as a secondary display for your laptops.
> 
> SSD harddisks are cheap. For this, get new ones. This will be good for both laptops and desktops.
> 
> ...


Would you happen to know of a setup (I mean specifics like CPU model name etc...) that has been working well for you over the years? It doesn't have to be super new; I just want something reliable.
You mentioned a Ryzen motherboard, got a favorite one in mind?


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

Geezer said:


> That is incredibly back luck, and statistically improbable. I have got Freebsd running with DE on every single machine that I have tried.


When I said they weren't capable of running the system, I should have clarified that I meant they did not meet my expectations, for example, the first laptop I tried was okay (by okay I mean the vesa driver (800x600) so it wasn't perfect either XD ) when it came to the graphics, but there was no hope for wifi and I hate dongles, I mean they are a last resort for me 
The second laptop wouldn't even boot after the install, but it was such an old piece of junk that I just disposed of it; The third laptop was a contender, but again the sound card was a no go, and finally on both stationary computers the gpu had no supported driver, so yeah, I decided it would be more profitable (time-wise) to ask for feedback on setups that actually work, because I'm guessing that somebody actually pulled off such a feat as getting a FreeBSD PC up and running , and who else better to ask than the pros?


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 22, 2021)

Same here. I can walk into any local computer shop and easily pull parts off the shelf that will run FreeBSD. I have two laptops and two purchased desktop computers with FreeBSD installed without issue. I don't understand the problem.


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## Argentum (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> Would you happen to know of a setup (I mean specifics like CPU model name etc...) that has been working well for you over the years? It doesn't have to be super new; I just want something reliable.
> You mentioned a Ryzen motherboard, got a favorite one in mind?


It was already mentioned here that FreeBSD works almost on anything. Even if some exotic part in the configuration does not work, the whole machine will still work. There have been problems with UEFI boot with some branded motherboards, but this is rare and can usually be circumvented.

I have personally experimented with older AMD APU-s (Radeon) and can confirm that they work. Almost all (especially older) network adapters will work. Used 10 year old computers are for sale and probably all of these will work.

You can only expect problems with most recent and expensive pieces of high-end hardware.


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Same here. I can walk into any local computer shop and easily pull parts off the shelf that will run FreeBSD. I have two laptops and two purchased desktop computers with FreeBSD installed without issue. I don't understand the problem.


Could you list me a specific model name for the components mentioned in the first post?
That is all I'm asking for  I just want to buy compatible parts that will work with the FreeBSD system, any recommendations are welcome.
Especially components that you have tested and whose reliability you can confirm.


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

Argentum said:


> It was already mentioned here that FreeBSD works almost on anything. Even if some exotic part in the configuration does not work, the whole machine will still work. There have been problems with UEFI boot with some branded motherboards, but this is rare and can usually be circumvented.
> 
> I have personally experimented with older AMD APU-s (Radeon) and can confirm that they work. Almost all (especially older) network adapters will work. Used 10 year old computers are for sale and probably all of these will work.
> 
> You can only expect problems with most recent and expensive pieces of high-end hardware.


It's the 'almost' part that has me worried. Could you list me the model names of hardware that has been working well for you?


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## Geezer (Sep 22, 2021)

On really, _really_ old machines, it is probably better:
with i386 rather than  amd64
ufs rather than zfs
anything rather than gnome or kde


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## Argentum (Sep 22, 2021)

Geezer said:


> On really, _really_ old machines, it is probably better:
> with i386 rather than  amd64
> ufs rather than zfs
> anything rather than gnome or kde


I have somewhere in my junk a very old AMD dual core machine with AGP bus and Nvidia Quadro. It still works fine with FreeBSD, however feels a bit slow. The only thing with the Quado was that Nvidia dropped the driver support for that. I think this is their overall policy. Nvidia drivers are closed source.


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

I know that a lot of computers should 'work' out of the box with FreeBSD, but that is not my experience, which is exactly why I am asking for SPECIFICS, not the general names of brands 
So, if indeed so many computers work with FreeBSD, I see no reason why it would be difficult for someone possessing a working device to post the MODEL NAME (for example Intel Corei9 11900K) of his core components (wifi adapter, cpu, gpu, sound card, motherboard storage device, etc.). So please, by all means post your setup if you may


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## sidetone (Sep 22, 2021)

Running BSDs On The AMD Ryzen 5000 Series - FreeBSD vs. Linux Benchmarks - Phoronix
					






					www.phoronix.com
				



And series older than this at least.


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

sidetone said:


> Running BSDs On The AMD Ryzen 5000 Series - FreeBSD vs. Linux Benchmarks - Phoronix
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll check the rog X570 out, but I'll still keep checking the 'compatible' hardware list for 13.0 for other components.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> So, if indeed so many computers work with FreeBSD, I see no reason why it would be difficult for someone possessing a working device to post the MODEL NAME (for example Intel Corei9 11900K) of his core components (wifi adapter, cpu, gpu, sound card, motherboard storage device, etc.). So please, by all means post your setup if you may


If I had $1500 to spend on a laptop I'd start watching for listings of business lease lot returns on ebay, snatch me up a Lenovo Thinkpad W520 for under $300, have another laptop like I'm using now, the one that serves as my dedicated mp3 player and $1200 in my pocket to pimp it out to 32GB RAM, etc.

But "High-end mobile workstations for CAD and digital art" that run FreeBSD out-of-the-box like the Thinkpad W520 are exactly what you do not want according to your list.

Not like my mp3 player at 120 days uptime, 152 days now. But who's counting...






Or the one I'm using now.





Thinkpad W520
Intel Quad Core i7-2760QM (2.40GHz, 6MB L3, 1600MHz FSB, 45W)
8 GB RAM PC3-10600
Hitachi TravelStar 500GB HDD @ 7200 RPM
Nvidia Quadro 1000M with 2GB DDR3 and 96 CUDA cores with Optimus Technology
15.6" TFT display with 1920x1080 (FHD) resolution with LED backlight
Microsoft USB TrackBall Optical Mouse

Bottom is an Intel Quad Core 2nd Gen i7-2760QM @ 2.40GHz that I paid $286 for delivered last Summer.

Just sayin'.


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## Argentum (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> It's the 'almost' part that has me worried. Could you list me the model names of hardware that has been working well for you?


AMD RX 550 and RX 570 chipset based cards for example. Not the latest model, but 550-s are still in production and good entry level GPU-s. This is just an example.


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## Geezer (Sep 22, 2021)

BSD Hardware Database
					

A database of all the hardware that works under bsd




					bsd-hardware.info


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## dd_ff_bb (Sep 22, 2021)

NYC*BUG New York City *BSD user group collecting dmesgs since 2004. From their website:
"Launched in 2004, dmesgd aims to provide a *user-submitted* repository of searchable *BSD dmesgs"

Someone might find it useful:






						NYC*BUG dmesgd
					

New York City BSD User Group dmesgd



					dmesgd.nycbug.org


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## astyle (Sep 22, 2021)

Argentum said:


> AMD RX 550 and RX 570 chipset based cards for example. Not the latest model, but 550-s are still in production and good entry level GPU-s. This is just an example.


That's my hardware that was just mentioned, and I can tell you, it will run 13-RELEASE just fine! 

As for OP, just use pcpartpicker.com to pick out the hardware. As a minimum, a CPU, motherboard, RAM, GPU, and an SSD. It will help you pick out some older stuff, too - they can go all the way back to AMD Opteron, or a B-chipset board. Just the clean stuff with nothing pre-installed.


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## shkhln (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> Dedicated GPU (preferably nvidia, NOT integrated, and NOT some weird hybrid autobot either   )


You won't get this in a laptop.


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## astyle (Sep 22, 2021)

shkhln said:


> You won't get this in a laptop.


Hmmm???
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-r...a-rtx3050ti-512gb-ssd/6464201.p?skuId=6464201


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## Geezer (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> Dream Setup ... 1520$ to spend ...laptop models ...



For $1,500 you can get a good laptop. Not a dream setup.

Be prepared to do some work (and enjoy doing it) to get it up and running.

It seems as though Lenovo laptops are generally good with Freebsd.

There is no right answer. You do the commitment. You make the choice. You pay for a machine. You do the work.


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## Jose (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> I know that a lot of computers should 'work' out of the box with FreeBSD, but that is not my experience, which is exactly why I am asking for SPECIFICS, not the general names of brands
> So, if indeed so many computers work with FreeBSD, I see no reason why it would be difficult for someone possessing a working device to post the MODEL NAME (for example Intel Corei9 11900K) of his core components (wifi adapter, cpu, gpu, sound card, motherboard storage device, etc.). So please, by all means post your setup if you may


I've ordered a Frame.work laptop. I'll report my experiences here if it ever arrives.

I've never had a problem running Freebsd on a computer I built even back when I couldn't always afford good parts. Some particular things might not work, like accelerated graphics, the latest WI-FI standard, the shiniest Linux desktop bloatware, etc., but I've always wound up with a workable computer.


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

astyle said:


> Hmmm???
> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-r...a-rtx3050ti-512gb-ssd/6464201.p?skuId=6464201


OMG!!! Wow, will this actually work with FreeBSD???
I mean, according to https://www.freebsd.org/releases/13.0R/hardware/#proc


> All 64-bit x86 processors are supported including AMD64 CPUs from AMD and Intel® 64 CPUs from Intel including Xeon and Core processors.


So considering the fact that this baby has an i7-11800H it should be compatible, right?
But then I looked at the RTX 3050 Ti, and I'm starting to have doubts as to whether it's supported:
From https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/x11/#x-config:
From https://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/FreeBSD-x86_64/465.19.01/README/supportedchips.html
I could not find the RTX 3050 Ti listed , I'm guessing this means it's a no go, right?
+ I'm not sure about the model of the wifi adapter, I couldn't find it listed


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 22, 2021)

Jose said:


> I've ordered a Frame.work laptop. I'll report my experiences here if it ever arrives.


Was just talking to my wife about that this morning after seeing an article about it.

Sam0000 I have a Gigabit motherboard, Intel I7 processor, nVidia dual port graphics, Atheros ethernet, off-the-shelf everything else I can't remember.


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## shkhln (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> I could not find the RTX 3050 Ti listed , I'm guessing this means it's a no go, right?


You are in different regions. It's going to be at least 30% more expensive in Europe anyway.


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

shkhln said:


> You are in different regions. It's going to be at least 30% more expensive in Europe anyway.


That's not an issue. (while it would be nice to fit in the given price range, it's not necessary). As I said, I'm hell-bent on getting a working 'portable' pc running FreeBSD, I just need to know if it'll work.


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## shkhln (Sep 22, 2021)

It'll work. It will be an awful experience, as usual, but it will work. Almost anything will, actually.


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## jdakhayman (Sep 22, 2021)

Jose said:


> I've ordered a Frame.work laptop. I'll report my experiences here if it ever arrives.
> 
> I've never had a problem running Freebsd on a computer I built even back when I couldn't always afford good parts. Some particular things might not work, like accelerated graphics, the latest WI-FI standard, the shiniest Linux desktop bloatware, etc., but I've always wound up with a workable computer.


Please do report back. I've been fencesitting on one of these myself.

jda


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## sidetone (Sep 22, 2021)

If your AMD or Intel is too new on an otherwise supported architecture, make and model series, chances are, it will be supported in a year to a few years. If it's too much money, don't chance that. There's a lot from a few years back that works well.

By the time Motherboards and CPU's come down in price, provided they're the correct architecture, and model brand, they're usually supported by then. CPU's can usually be switched out. If an old computer has an 32bit processor, those can be switched out. Usually CPU's for way older boards not supplied in physical stores have to be ordered online. They claim they're brand new, but I suspect they're not, but the point is, I want an upgrade on a CPU to make an old motherboard better.

I'm not very knowledgable about upgrading laptops, but they seem less upgradeable when looking at the inside.


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## Sam0000 (Sep 22, 2021)

sidetone said:


> If your AMD or Intel is too new on an otherwise supported architecture, make and model series, chances are, it will be supported in a year to a few years. If it's too much money, don't chance that. There's a lot from a few years back that works well.
> 
> By the time Motherboards and CPU's come down in price, provided they're the correct architecture, and model brand, they're usually supported by then. CPU's can usually be switched out. If an old computer has an 32bit processor, those can be switched out. Usually CPU's for way older boards not supplied in physical stores have to be ordered online. They claim they're brand new, but I suspect they're not, but the point is, I want an upgrade on a CPU to make an old motherboard better.
> 
> I'm not very knowledgable about upgrading laptops, but they seem less upgradeable when looking at the inside.


Okay, let's assume for a moment that you have to buy a laptop that can run FreeBSD (and has a WORKING wifi adapter preferably one using the 802.11 gen 5 or 6 protocol),
what would you recommend? Forget the previous requirements this time, just your recommendation for a FreeBSD compatible laptop that has a working wifi adapter and some form of GPU that can handle the res 1920x1080 on a Xorg-based DE and has a working sound card. It can be a cheap, old one, but specifics, please  I get your point, nothing too new


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## astyle (Sep 22, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> OMG!!! Wow, will this actually work with FreeBSD???
> I mean, according to https://www.freebsd.org/releases/13.0R/hardware/#proc
> 
> So considering the fact that this baby has an i7-11800H it should be compatible, right?
> ...


Ahhh, I was just providing a counter-example to what shkhln was saying. For your case, I'd recommend going with Nvidia RTX 2000 series. It looks like you did your homework, now it's time to put that knowledge to good use by finding a usable laptop that checks the boxes for your list.


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 26, 2021)

To the opening poster:



Sam0000 said:


> … I am asking for SPECIFICS, not the general names of brands …



With apologies: I thought first of the previously mentioned Framework. Then, the hardware database.



Sam0000 said:


> The second laptop wouldn't even boot after the install, but it was such an old piece of junk that …





Argentum said:


> FreeBSD works almost on anything. Even if some exotic part …
> 
> You can only expect problems with most recent and expensive pieces of high-end hardware.



In a parallel universe: we have non-exotic two-year old hardware, from the second largest PC vendor, that FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE can not boot. 

*An operating system that will not boot is a problem*; is not a dream setup.



Geezer said:


> … statistically improbable. …



See above ;-)


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## kpedersen (Sep 26, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> just your recommendation for a FreeBSD compatible laptop that has a working wifi adapter and some form of GPU that can handle the res 1920x1080 on a Xorg-based DE and has a working sound card.


I am was reasonably happy with the X1 Carbon (3rd gen). It all generally works.

https://wiki.freebsd.org/Laptops/Thinkpad_X1_Carbon

Compared to the much older ThinkPads (i.e the X220, X61, etc), the build quality was pretty poor (though still possibly better than many other brands) so I tend to keep to older but it should satisfy your requirements.

By now the 4th and 5th gen are probably working well too. I recall a FreeBSD Foundation announcement was that they were specifically going to work on the X1 Carbon support too. So 7th gen is probably quite close by now.

https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2019-07-2019-09.html#Improving-laptop-support


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## Sam0000 (Sep 27, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> To the opening poster:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know FreeBSD is not perfect, but I feel such a strange magnetic pull towards UNIX operating systems, I can't help myself.
It's a moth to lit-bulb-in-the-dark attraction, it started with hating windows (for a lot of things, in fact it would be easier to list only the reasons why I used it in the first place: driver support and games games games) and developed into a fascination with the entire UNIX philosophy and its kernel. Now, the more I study the kernel the more interesting i find it. After realizing that I've had enough of windows (and that linux does have some driver support as well as games (supertux XD)) I made the transition to arch linux, but I don't know, maybe it was something about systemd that threw me off, or maybe it was the fact that linux is really more of a kernel than a full blown os and something was missing?? I don't know, but FreeBSD feels like home, especially the community, I mean you guys are amazing! It's been a couple of days since a newbie like myself posted something, and this thread has been viewed over 500 times! Plus the docs are great. Considering all that, buying hardware for the system is totally worth it (especially since I'm the type of person which could spend all day in a hardware store looking at computer parts, checking their benchmarks, and noting down interesting configurations). As it stands now, I'm harassing people (kindly  ) to get access to their hardware to check if their setup works on the live USB and also test their wifi card speed XD, because one thing that I've learned is that just because something is listed in the supported hardware notes, doesn't mean it would make it to a is-supported-and-works-quite-well hardware list 
But I'LL BE BACK once I find something that is truly 'worthy' of a dream setup XD =)  to post the specs.


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## Argentum (Sep 27, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> In a parallel universe: we have non-exotic two-year old hardware, from the second largest PC vendor, that FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE can not boot.


Do you know why? Is it with both - UEFI and legacy boot?



grahamperrin said:


> *An operating system that will not boot is a problem*; is not a dream setup.


I agree that a system which does not boot is useless. However, the big question here is *why*?


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 27, 2021)

Argentum said:


> 𠈶… both - UEFI and legacy boot? …



Yes.



> … *why*?



<https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?id=f75caed644a5c8c342a1ea5e7a6d5251f82ed0b1> and more; related bugs are not yet fixed.


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 27, 2021)

Sam0000 said:


> … I am hell-bent on getting a fully working laptop … Dedicated GPU (preferably nvidia, NOT integrated, and NOT some weird hybrid autobot …



A fully working portable computer should sleep, and wake from sleep. 

My (very) limited experience with NVIDIA – Quadro K1100M (GK107GLM) – was failure to wake; <https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=257456#c32>.



> … driver problems …



In fairness, I never successfully experimented with hybrid graphics – <https://forums.FreeBSD.org/threads/81493/post-525755> – if I had done so, then maybe the ZBook would have woken from sleep (using the Intel HD Graphics 4600?) and I could have described myself as free from driver problems.


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## Jose (Sep 27, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> <https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?id=f75caed644a5c8c342a1ea5e7a6d5251f82ed0b1> and more; related bugs are not yet fixed.


Shrug. I use BIOS booting and will continue to do so until it is no longer possible. Linus's opinion of UEFI is good enough reason for me to avoid it.


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 27, 2021)

Jose said:


> BIOS booting



FreeBSD bugs: 

255072 – boot (legacy): no progress beyond 'BIOS DRIVE D: is disk1' – HP ProBook 440 G7, released twenty-three months ago
257722 – Current RELEASE builds (11.4, 12.2, 13.0) give BTX boot crash, where 11.3 worked fine.


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## Jose (Sep 28, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> FreeBSD bugs:
> 
> 255072 – boot (legacy): no progress beyond 'BIOS DRIVE D: is disk1' – HP ProBook 440 G7, released twenty-three months ago
> 257722 – Current RELEASE builds (11.4, 12.2, 13.0) give BTX boot crash, where 11.3 worked fine.


From bug 257722:
"It's an old system, probably 10-15 years
Also, it boots from a hardware RAID card ('twe' driver)."


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 28, 2021)

Not intended to be a comprehensive list of bugs. I included 257722 only because it was nearby (linked from 255072).

I sometimes see suggestions to not expect support for computers that are _less than one year old_; words to that effect.

My point, with bugs such as 255072 (legacy boot) and 255073 (UEFI boot): 

a better generalisation might be, _at least *two* years old_. 
With a standard warranty period of one year, an HP computer might be two years out of warranty before it can boot a RELEASE of FreeBSD. Not quite a dream setup 

This is not to criticise the efforts of developers of FreeBSD.

July 2019, with added emphasis:



> … The FreeBSD Foundation would like to ensure that running FreeBSD on contemporary hardware, including laptops, remains viable. To that end we plan to purchase the latest generation of one or more of a family of *laptops preferred by members of the FreeBSD community*, evaluate the existing state of hardware support, and implement missing hardware support where possible.
> 
> As the first laptop for this project we have selected a 7th Generation Lenovo X1 Carbon. …



There's a potential flaw to this logic:

if members of the FreeBSD community prefer laptops that are more likely to run FreeBSD, then support for other (no less important) laptops may be increasingly marginalised.


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## astyle (Sep 28, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> With a standard warranty period of one year, an HP computer might be two years out of warranty before it can boot a RELEASE of FreeBSD. Not quite a dream setup


I disagree with that, but until I actually get my hands on an HP laptop and get FreeBSD on it myself, that's just my opinion.


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 28, 2021)

Thanks,



astyle said:


> … until I actually get my hands on an HP laptop …



– do you have a model in mind?

Insight UK range, sorted by best-selling – that's not me promoting Insight, it's simply a site with which I'm familiar. #2 and #5 best-selling HP notebooks are amongst the models with FreeBSD boot failures (bug 255073).


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## astyle (Sep 28, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah, HP Omen Advantage Edition 16.1"...  I'm on West Coast US. Blew a truckload of $ on a GPU, though (talked about that in a different thread), so that laptop is on hold until next year... The reason I'm drooling is the RX 6600m discrete gpu in it. Dunno if it's available in the UK market yet.


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## Jose (Sep 28, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> if members of the FreeBSD community prefer laptops that are more likely to run FreeBSD, then support for other (no less important) laptops may be increasingly marginalised.


They have to focus somewhere because resources are severely limited. Are you suggesting they focus on laptops that are not preferred by the Freebsd community?


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 28, 2021)

Jose said:


> Are you suggesting they focus on laptops that are not preferred by the Freebsd community?



No.


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## Argentum (Sep 29, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> No.


I think after all there are *two schools* of philosophy  - *first* (I would call it _old school_) which says that one should pick a right hardware to run his/her application; *second* which says that an application should run on all hardware. In this respect the operating system with user-land and ports is an application.

Personally I am an old school person (maybe this is also related to my birth date ).


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## Jose (Sep 29, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> No.


What are you proposing, then? If focusing on the laptops preferred by the Freebsd community is the wrong thing to do, what is the right thing?


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## kpedersen (Sep 29, 2021)

Jose said:


> What are you proposing, then? If focusing on the laptops preferred by the Freebsd community is the wrong thing to do, what is the right thing?


Careful. You might get accused of _"conflating the issue" (TM)_


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## astyle (Sep 29, 2021)

Argentum said:


> I think after all there are *two schools* of philosophy  - *first* (I would call it _old school_) which says that one should pick a right hardware to run his/her application; *second* which says that an application should run on all hardware. In this respect the operating system with user-land and ports is an application.
> 
> Personally I am an old school person (maybe this is also related to my birth date ).



Ah, this is really the age-old question of chicken and egg. OS is *not* an application, it's the layer between userland and ports application and bare metal.  An Epyc 7703 may be ideal for running a web server, but if you skip the OS selection, and go with whatever, you can end up with Windows XP as the layer between the Epyc and Apache - and end up with crappy results.


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## Argentum (Sep 29, 2021)

astyle said:


> Ah, this is really the age-old question of chicken and egg. OS is *not* an application, it's the layer between userland and ports application and bare metal.  An Epyc 7703 may be ideal for running a web server, but if you skip the OS selection, and go with whatever, you can end up with Windows XP as the layer between the Epyc and Apache - and end up with crappy results.


Agree, the pure kernel is not called an application, but FreeBSD (as we all know) is more than just a kernel. Shell is an application already...


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## astyle (Sep 29, 2021)

Argentum said:


> Agree, the pure kernel is not called an application, but FreeBSD (as we all know) is more than just a kernel. Shell is an application already...


FreeBSD is actually just the kernel. sh(1) and ports(7) are actually available for just about all of the platforms that FreeBSD supports. So, it's not really possible to get away from selecting the right hardware for the kernel to run on. But once that step is done - userland and ports can run just about anywhere.


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## Argentum (Sep 29, 2021)

astyle said:


> FreeBSD is actually just the kernel. sh(1) and ports(7) are actually available for just about all of the platforms that FreeBSD supports. So, it's not really possible to get away from selecting the right hardware for the kernel to run on. But once that step is done - userland and ports can run just about anywhere.


Let's say kernel is OK, but bootloader does not work well with a specific hardware (which happened to me some time ago). Loader is a separate application. Independent of kernel. Can be built also independently. Eventually I had to replace the hardware to get it working...


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## Jose (Sep 29, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> Careful. You might get accused of _"conflating the issue" (TM)_


Hopefully no one will engage in high school level debate tactics.


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## astyle (Sep 29, 2021)

Argentum said:


> Let's say kernel is OK, but bootloader does not work well with a specific hardware (which happened to me some time ago). Loader is a separate application. Independent of kernel. Can be built also independently. Eventually I had to replace the hardware to get it working...


I would think that the bootloader is just the first part of the kernel that gets activated. Well, I'd have to read the Handbook's section on booting more carefully to provide a more solid reply.


Jose said:


> Hopefully no one will engage in high school level debate tactics.


Nice link! Unfortunately, in the field of computer expertise, something that on the surface looks like a red herring, can very well turn out to be THE problem to address to get the rig working. And it takes people being more or less on the same page to be able to understand something like that.


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## Argentum (Sep 29, 2021)

astyle said:


> I would think that the bootloader is just the first part of the kernel that gets activated. Well, I'd have to read the Handbook's section on booting more carefully to provide a more solid reply.


No. It is not part of kernel, can be built completely independently and also 13.0 loader can be used with older kernels. I am talking about:

```
root@Rhodium ~# file /boot/loader.efi
/boot/loader.efi: PE32+ executable (EFI application) x86-64, for MS Windows
```

To build it

```
cd /usr/src/stand/
make
```


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 30, 2021)

Jose said:


> What are you proposing, then?



Addition of _boot_ to Focus Area 1 of the Technology Roadmap.


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## Jose (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Addition of _boot_ to Focus Area 1 of the Technology Roadmap.


What are the problems with boot that should be focused on?


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 1, 2021)

Jose said:


> What are the problems with boot that should be focused on?



Primarily – *essentially* – boot failures.


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## Jose (Oct 1, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Primarily – *essentially* – boot failures.


How common are these?


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 1, 2021)

Jose said:


> How common are these?



_At least_ two of the (Insight) top five best-selling computers from the world's second largest PC vendor. Details linked from page 2.


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## Jose (Oct 1, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> _At least_ two of the (Insight) top five best-selling computers from the world's second largest PC vendor. Details linked from page 2.


One of which you happen to have, right? So the Freebsd project should focus on making your computer work? How many other people have complained?


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## Argentum (Oct 1, 2021)

Jose said:


> One of which you happen to have, right? So the Freebsd project should focus on making your computer work? How many other people have complained?


Well, I have seen such thing  - a major PC manufacturer's product not being able to boot FreeBSD. That is not the problem of FreeBSD, but their product not following the standards and being Windows oriented. Discrete motherboards and smaller brand products are usually better...


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## Jose (Oct 1, 2021)

Argentum said:


> Well, I have seen such thing  - a major PC manufacturer's product not being able to boot FreeBSD. That is not the problem of FreeBSD, but their product not following the standards and being Windows oriented. Discrete motherboards and smaller brand products are usually better...


And I'm a little sad that the dev who was being so helpful went quiet all of a sudden. I would take stab at creating a debug loader if I had access to the hardware, but that's the rub, you often don't in a small project with a limited budget.


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## astyle (Oct 1, 2021)

Off the top of my head, IIRC from following the email lists (which I stumbled on while waiting for 13-RELEASE to finally show up), FreeBSD devs tend to use secondhand Lenovo laptops... But that's a random bit of info that somehow just stuck with me for no apparent reason while browsing the email lists earlier this year. And even on these forums, someone (Geezer, I think!) mentioned that FreeBSD does better with Lenovo. This is partly why I like pushing the idea of doing your homework before splurging on a laptop, especially if you plan to install FreeBSD on it.

But man, this thread has taken on a life of its own... not a bad thing, IMHO, that can be of use to lots of people beyond initial participants.


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## Argentum (Oct 1, 2021)

astyle said:


> Off the top of my head, IIRC from following the email lists (which I stumbled on while waiting for 13-RELEASE to finally show up), FreeBSD devs tend to use secondhand Lenovo laptops... But that's a random bit of info that somehow just stuck with me for no apparent reason while browsing the email lists earlier this year. And even on these forums, someone (Geezer, I think!) mentioned that FreeBSD does better with Lenovo. This is partly why I like pushing the idea of doing your homework before splurging on a laptop, especially if you plan to install FreeBSD on it.


I can confirm that old Lenovo works perfectly with FreeBSD, including WiFi.


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Jose said:


> right?


 
Wrong, and no, and the bugs are self-explanatory. Please try to not twist my words.


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## Jose (Oct 2, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Wrong.


You submitted a bug report because a computer you don't have doesn't boot? How do you plan to verify it's fixed?


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Jose said:


> You submitted a bug report because a computer you don't have doesn't boot?



Yes. There's logic. Please see, for example:









						HP ProBook 440 G7
					

There's a possibility of me gaining use of this notebook (no other): [HP ProBook 440 G7](https://support.hp.com/gb-en/document/c06474914) * [HP...




					old.reddit.com
				






Jose said:


> How do you plan to verify it's fixed?



Testing.

When the opportunity arises, as a variety of HP and other computers pass through my hands.


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## Jose (Oct 2, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Yes. There's logic. Please see, for example:





> HP ProBook 440 G7 (self.freebsd)
> submitted 1 year ago * by grahamperrin
> There's a possibility of me gaining use of this notebook (no other):
> HP ProBook 440 G7


So you didn't get it but you know it won't boot? Or you did get it and it doesn't boot, but it's not yours?


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Jose said:


> So you didn't get it but you know it won't boot? Or you did get it and it doesn't boot, but it's not yours?



I did not want an HP ProBook 440 G7 because I knew that neither -RELEASE nor -CURRENT could boot it.

Then (amongst other things in the bug reports) came the test with the HP ProBook 440 G8. Again, not mine.

Then the HP ProBook 450 G8. Again, not mine. 

It's now reasonable for me to make a business case for a beefed-up (but not exotic) HP that FreeBSD 14.0-CURRENT _can_ boot, with `copy_staging disable` (that 13.0-RELEASE can _not_), however the case can *not* include use of FreeBSD. Maybe a ProBook 450 G8. I'm in no rush.


My situation aside: `copy_staging disable` is not a workaround for neither 13.⋯ nor 14.0-CURRENT booting this mid-2007 computer: <https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/82243/>


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## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

grahamperrin : Let's see if I got you straight here... there's a list of HP laptops (with some nice specs) that you like, and are considering getting one of them - if there's a decent chance that they will work with FreeBSD. The hardware specs are nice enough to motivate you to do your homework for each and every one of the laptops. And that per-laptop homework extends to filing bug reports on 14-CURRENT. 

Either that, or you're trying to unload some 7-year-old laptops, and want to be able to guarantee that they will in fact run FreeBSD 13-RELEASE or 14-CURRENT.

This is just a couple of *assumptions that I'm making* here, based on your talking about how you don't own the bespoke laptops, but are researching their compatibility with FreeBSD anyway.


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 3, 2021)

Thanks,



astyle said:


> … HP laptops (with some nice specs) that you like, …



September 2020: "There's a possibility of me gaining use of this notebook (no other)" was when, if I recall correctly, the HP ProBook 440 G7 was standard issue at my place of work.

Non-standard would have required a business case. July 2021:



grahamperrin said:


> … I can not make a business case for FreeBSD-compatible hardware. …



More accurately:



grahamperrin said:


> Windows 10 is a requirement, and the hardware that's normally given (most often: HP ProBook 440 G7) runs Windows 10 very well.
> 
> I can't make a case for alternative hardware based on a personal preference for something other than Windows.



There's more, but essentially:

if I do not attempt to make a business case, what I _like_ is irrelevant – I'll be given a standard issue HP, which FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE can not boot
I'd like additional memory, and additional storage
I'll make a case for additional memory
– and on whatever I receive, I'll run FreeBSD 14.0-CURRENT.


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 3, 2021)

astyle said:


> or you're trying to unload some 7-year-old laptops,



(Which ones?)


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## astyle (Oct 3, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have the freedom to install 14-current on a machine that you expect to be issued at your workplace??? OK, now I'm beginning to see the picture. Thing is - you're gonna be largely on your own for adequately securing that machine to comply with your workplace policies, don't expect any privacy (a company has the right to inspect and properly maintain any equipment it issues, including laptops). And if there's a network area that you can't connect to for some reason, even if your work account supposedly has the right permissions - you'll be largely on your own to make sure that your company-issued equipment is working correctly.  I work in a place with that kind of reality. 

If your position allows you to get away with having 14-CURRENT on your work machine, then I'm envious. My work priority would be to have a machine that works correctly.  If it doesn't - my workplace will give me a new machine that does, and it will be their problem, not mine, 'cuz they will still have to pay me.


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 3, 2021)

astyle said:


> … you're gonna be largely on your own for adequately securing that machine to comply with your workplace policies, …



Posted by me in April: 

Binding FreeBSD to Active Directory domain services

tl;dr binding was impossible for me due to bugs in FreeBSD, so I use a network that does not require binding. 

The situation has improved, however I'll probably not attempt to bind my existing computer. 



> My work priority would be to have a machine that works correctly.



The same for me, in that: 



grahamperrin said:


> Windows 10 is a requirement,





grahamperrin said:


> There's more,



More from the linked topic (before <https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?id=f75caed644a5c8c342a1ea5e7a6d5251f82ed0b1> was committed): 



grahamperrin said:


> … FreeBSD can not boot the computer that I'll be given, so I'll:
> 
> boot Windows 10, which is designed to work with the hardware
> make best use of Windows 10
> ...



On the HP computers where FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE will not boot, it's now possible to boot FreeBSD 14.0-CURRENT then boot Windows 10 in VirtualBox.


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## astyle (Oct 3, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Posted by me in April:
> 
> Binding FreeBSD to Active Directory domain services
> 
> ...


Thanks, now it's adding up for me. Once again, if your workplace/job allows you something like that, I'm envious. At my workplace, I kind of have to be on the domain - just the way things are set up. Well, good luck. I'm gonna watch this one from the sidelines.


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## grahamperrin@ (Dec 4, 2021)

Things now are clearer: improved amd64 UEFI boot was sponsored by the FreeBSD Foundation. From the status report:



> … The updated loader automatically detects if the loaded kernel can handle in-place staging area ('non-copying mode'). If needed, this can be overridden with the loader’s copy_staging command. For instance, 'copy_staging enable' tells the loader to unconditionally copy the staging area to 2M regardless of kernel capabilities (default is 'copy_staging auto'). Also, the code to grow the staging area was made much more robust, allowing it to grow without hand-tuning and recompiling the loader.



So, there's no longer the wish for this:



grahamperrin said:


> Addition of _boot_ to Focus Area 1 of the Technology Roadmap.



(Prior to the status report, I tracked the various bugs but I wasn't sure whether things had reached a conclusion.)

Postscripts

From 2021 in Review: Software Development | FreeBSD Foundation:



> *Improved amd64 UEFI boot*
> 
> Konstantin Belousov modified the amd64 UEFI loader to start the kernel from the “staging area” without first copying it aside. Previously the kernel had to be copied to a fixed location, which was incompatible with some UEFI firmware implementations and had other limitations. This work addressed a number of outstanding issues in the FreeBSD problem report (bug) database.



<https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-...272dfb79f134772d4f7c619604ed3778d8427b0afR151>


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## grahamperrin@ (May 16, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> … #2 and #5 best-selling HP notebooks are amongst the models with FreeBSD boot failures



… the various *ASUS, Dell, HP, Samsung and other computers* in 2016 bug 209821 – UEFI - installation media hangs when booting on ASUS P6P67 DELUXE; in 2017 bug 219957 – FreeBSD Install freeze using UEFI; in 2020 bug 249226 – Freeze during early boot; in 2021 bug 255073 – boot (UEFI): loader: copy_staging: no progress beyond EFI framebuffer information; in the topics below (dcol rootbert beans10001 danbi huginn); (there may be other related bug reports and topics, of which I'm not aware) ….









						Install freezes at Consoles: EFI Consoles
					

Using UEFI, I cannot install FreeBSD which hangs on the message 'Consoles: EFI Consoles' I am using the latest FreeBSD 11 memstick image. System is a Dell Optiplex 7010. I have many of these systems and have only been able to boot using a 7010 desktop with no NIC's installed. As soon as I...




					forums.freebsd.org
				












						UEFI problems dualboot
					

Hi folks,  Unfortunately my harddisk died. I have no backup since it was "just" the system without important stuff. However, now I am struggling to setup the system. I had a dual-boot system Linux/FreeBSD where I installed refind in Linux, so via efibootmgr I could choose via ssh in which system...




					forums.freebsd.org
				












						Won't boot:  masks    0x00ff0000, 0x0000ff00, 0x000000ff, 0xff000000
					

I decided to reinstall one of my FreeBSD systems this morning.  I downloaded the 12.2-RELEASE installer (memstick), copied it to a USB drive and then tried to boot from it.  That's where the problems began...  In general, this sounds very similar to the following thread but I'm not seeing the...




					forums.freebsd.org
				












						Solved - FreeBSD on HP ProDesk G6
					

I have installed FreeBSD on quite different machines over the years, but this is my first "strictly UEFI only" BIOS one and I can't get the installer image to work. There is no Legacy ot Compatibility mode in this BIOS at all.  So far tried the most recent USB images of 11.4, 12.1, 12.2, 13.0...




					forums.freebsd.org
				












						Solved - Trying to install FreeBSD 13.0 on HP ZBook 15 G6
					

Hi, I am trying to install Free BSD on HP ZBook 15 G6 following handbook. I didn't get very far because my computer freezes after BOOT Menu and printing masks 0x00ff0000 0x0000ff00 0xff000000. I did try "safe mode" but nothing changed. I am pretty intrigued by the fact that FreeBSD 14.0 boots...




					forums.freebsd.org
				




Time to celebrate!​
For *FreeBSD 13.1-RELEASE*, a fix is noted: <https://www.freebsd.org/releases/13.1R/relnotes/#boot-loader>


----------

