# I genuinely think freebsd would be more popular with a purely bsd eye-candy desktop environment



## nap (Jan 30, 2022)

Seriously, what's stopping people from doing so?
I bet the community could do something far more awesome than gnome or kde.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Jan 30, 2022)

The target audience for FreeBSD is not pop culture, kids and their games. The target audience is those who need and want a solid, serious foundation for their work. FreeBSD does not create desktop software.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 30, 2022)

nap said:


> … freebsd would be more popular with a purely bsd eye-candy desktop environment



True: desktop environments increase popularity.

Also true: it's not a good idea for FreeBSD to _include_ any DE.

Instead, if you like:



grahamperrin said:


> the FreeBSD Project needs better onboarding for the gamut of people who require a desktop environment





nap said:


> … the community could do something far more awesome than gnome or kde.



Opinions of what's awesome vary, _wildly_, which is a good thing.

For me, GNOME (pictured) is awful, but I understand that other people might be passionate about its virtues.



nap said:


> Seriously, what's stopping people from doing so? …



If you mean, rationales for not including a desktop environment: one must be *graphics hardware*.

I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but <https://bsd-hardware.info/?probe=ef66d7a110#pci:8086-27a6-103c-308f> with one of your two graphics cards properly driven, it's possible that you never felt the pain that can result from a desktop environment without graphics ;-)


----------



## mer (Jan 30, 2022)

It would be really cool if a window close button was a poop emoji


----------



## mer (Jan 30, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> True: desktop environments increase popularity.


Popularity of what?  The DE or the base?  How many actually understand that the eye candy is not the system?
I'm guessing the OP is a newly minted concern troll.


----------



## eternal_noob (Jan 30, 2022)

nap said:


> more awesome than gnome


Any window manager is more awesome than Gnome. Even sysutils/screen is.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 30, 2022)

mer said:


> I'm guessing the OP is a newly minted concern troll.



I think not. nap expressed great happiness with FreeBSD more than two months ago. 



mer said:


> It would be really cool if a window close button was a poop



A typo, surely. Pop-up. 



mer said:


> Popularity of what?



Apples, oranges, minty orange chocolates and pop-up posting openers.


----------



## mer (Jan 30, 2022)

Not a typo, a poop emoji would be awesome as a window close button.  "I'm flushing this window".

Perhaps "recently minted" would be better?


----------



## shkhln (Jan 30, 2022)

Imagine how popular FreeBSD would be if it were a k-pop idol group.


Spoiler



Don't mind me. I want my shitposting points.


----------



## kpedersen (Jan 30, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> True: desktop environments increase popularity.
> 
> Also true: it's not a good idea for FreeBSD to _include_ any DE.


a) You would normally need to provide good evidence along with a statement such as "True". Have you carried out any studies?
b) Luckily FreeBSD includes loads of them in ports collection.


----------



## bsduck (Jan 30, 2022)

nap said:


> something far more awesome than gnome or kde


x11-wm/awesome ?



nap said:


> Seriously, what's stopping people from doing so?


Waste of time when you already have a broad choice of DEs, WMs and other desktop software that work fine on FreeBSD. x11/lumina was started with FreeBSD as the main target (it was later ported to Linux) but I wouldn't call it a success. Join development of your favourite one and make it more awesome!


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 30, 2022)

mer said:


> a window close button.



Requested by traditionalists:





We aim to please. 

Awfully sorry: I simply can't find any tiling sash window manager in FreshPorts. 

For now, please content yourselves with casement and pop-up windows.


----------



## eternal_noob (Jan 30, 2022)

bsduck said:


> Join development of your favourite one and make it more awesome!


Or even build your own! Here's TinyWM, a window manager in less than 50 lines of code! Fork it and make it awesome!


```
/* TinyWM is written by Nick Welch <nick@incise.org> in 2005 & 2011.
 *
 * This software is in the public domain
 * and is provided AS IS, with NO WARRANTY. */

#include <X11/Xlib.h>

#define MAX(a, b) ((a) > (b) ? (a) : (b))

int main(void)
{
    Display * dpy;
    XWindowAttributes attr;
    XButtonEvent start;
    XEvent ev;

    if(!(dpy = XOpenDisplay(0x0))) return 1;

    XGrabKey(dpy, XKeysymToKeycode(dpy, XStringToKeysym("F1")), Mod1Mask,
            DefaultRootWindow(dpy), True, GrabModeAsync, GrabModeAsync);
    XGrabButton(dpy, 1, Mod1Mask, DefaultRootWindow(dpy), True,
            ButtonPressMask|ButtonReleaseMask|PointerMotionMask, GrabModeAsync, GrabModeAsync, None, None);
    XGrabButton(dpy, 3, Mod1Mask, DefaultRootWindow(dpy), True,
            ButtonPressMask|ButtonReleaseMask|PointerMotionMask, GrabModeAsync, GrabModeAsync, None, None);

    start.subwindow = None;
    for(;;)
    {
        XNextEvent(dpy, &ev);
        if(ev.type == KeyPress && ev.xkey.subwindow != None)
            XRaiseWindow(dpy, ev.xkey.subwindow);
        else if(ev.type == ButtonPress && ev.xbutton.subwindow != None)
        {
            XGetWindowAttributes(dpy, ev.xbutton.subwindow, &attr);
            start = ev.xbutton;
        }
        else if(ev.type == MotionNotify && start.subwindow != None)
        {
            int xdiff = ev.xbutton.x_root - start.x_root;
            int ydiff = ev.xbutton.y_root - start.y_root;
            XMoveResizeWindow(dpy, start.subwindow,
                attr.x + (start.button==1 ? xdiff : 0),
                attr.y + (start.button==1 ? ydiff : 0),
                MAX(1, attr.width + (start.button==3 ? xdiff : 0)),
                MAX(1, attr.height + (start.button==3 ? ydiff : 0)));
        }
        else if(ev.type == ButtonRelease)
            start.subwindow = None;
    }
}
```


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 30, 2022)

CoolHwhipMike I feel another poll coming on …


----------



## msplsh (Jan 31, 2022)

Based on how many X setup threads here, I think it would be more popular if it had a script that set stuff up properly and you just picked a DE/WM.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Jan 31, 2022)

msplsh said:


> I think it would be more popular if it had a script that set stuff up properly



I don't recall the last time I had to do anything to set X up on a new install but, then again, I've only done that twice in 7 years including a few months ago and it all was automatic.



msplsh said:


> and you just picked a DE/WM.



This part you already do.


----------



## astyle (Jan 31, 2022)

nap : The way I see it, FreeBSD's target audience seems to be people who don't get offended at being told to RTFM, and would not only do it, but actually have lively discussions about how accurate the manual is, whether the instructions follow best practices, etc.

FreeBSD's target audience is generally savvy enough to be able to learn to use the ports or packages, and figure out for themselves which DE they want. For such people, a default DE is probably not the best idea. 90% of them will change the default (and say 'mine is the best, yours sucks'), and the other 10% will stick with the very minimal default (Xorg's TWM comes to mind) for a variety of reasons. Those reasons can range from 'I don't know how to do it' to 'I don't wanna bother with doing it'.

Just about any DE can be themed to nearly any extent. Pick any DE you want from the ports tree, RTFM, and go wild! Kind of like buying paint and painting the walls of your own house, instead of being stuck with the ugly whitewashed walls of a rented, cramped apartment.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Jan 31, 2022)

One of those questions came from someone I recently referred here. They used the tutorial on my site and emailed me asking for advise, apparently not knowing about the forums prior to that.

I'll fix that.

Myself, I've installed it a four times in as many weeks upgrading from 12.2 to a fresh FreeBSD 13 build. 
Mixing ports for everything built before Xorg ,then pkg for xorg and everything else.


----------



## astyle (Jan 31, 2022)

alfonsosiciliano said:


> It might be a good idea (I had a draft project/script to choose and install a DE / GPU driver / GUI tools for personal use), I could revamp/update/improve it if useful.


DesktopBSD beat you to the punch on that idea, back in 2016. They actually had a tool like that. You can try getting it into the ports tree here at FreeBSD. As long as you follow the Porter's Handbook, and make your code fit to FreeBSD's established frameworks, you have a pretty good chance of pulling that off.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 31, 2022)

From <https://old.reddit.com/r/BSD/comments/e5ov6y/-/fiuk50a/> (2020-02-26): 



> … the dev who covers KDE on FreeBSD wrote a script to set it up. …



▶Instant Workstation | [bobulate] – maybe a little outdated, but still: food for thought.


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> CoolHwhipMike I feel another poll coming on …
> 
> View attachment 12792



PhoronixBSD...


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 31, 2022)

astyle said:


> … people who don't get offended at being told to RTFM, …



First, ask yourselves: 

_how many times_ have you seen a newcomer steered to places such as the FreeBSD Handbook or the book of frequently asked questions?
Then: 

_why_ were those newcomers not already where they were _supposed_ to be?
Three keywords: 

*suppositions*
*expectations*
*onboarding*.


----------



## jammied (Jan 31, 2022)

I think that this point is actually fairly important:


drhowarddrfine said:


> The target audience for FreeBSD is not pop culture, kids and their games. The target audience is those who need and want a solid, serious foundation for their work. FreeBSD does not create desktop software.


The minute BSD starts attracting the kind of people who inherently enticed by a fancy desktop environment is the same time we start attracting people who undermine the very things thatare unique benefits of BSD, i.e. stability and security. I myself think there is a strong argument for being cautious who you attract to the BSD community.


----------



## nap (Jan 31, 2022)

I was just sharing a simple thought and what a ride reading all of your comments. So here's my conclusion.
Surely freebsd can have the best of both worlds. From my perspective to think only in absolutes is just not right.
Maybe from your angle the BSD desktop doesn't sound smart, but it can be an option for all of those who just want an out of the box experience. No tweaks or headaches. Plain simple eye candy and responsive UI with all the standard features.
Anyway in the end it's just a vague idea but fun to try.


----------



## malavon (Jan 31, 2022)

nap said:


> Surely freebsd can have the best of both worlds. From my perspective to think only in absolutes is just not right.


Am I the only one thinking of creating a spoof project called SithBSD now?


----------



## msplsh (Jan 31, 2022)

alfonsosiciliano said:


> Actually I'm thinking of a simple script, it doesn't deserve a port. The old version exists on some repository but depends on not-permissive deps and is quite obsolete.


Nope, this script has already failed if you have to pick a GPU, turn on the audio, enable a touchpad...  The PCI IDs are *right there.*


----------



## astyle (Jan 31, 2022)

malavon said:


> Am I the only one thinking of creating a spoof project called SithBSD now?


There's lots of people who want to 'Roll their own' project with FreeBSD-compatible components. There's nothing wrong with somebody doing it as a personal project and sharing copies of it with anyone who's interested. 

But asking an established project to change their defaults - that's a totally different scale, very different from asking your family to change an annoying habit. The way I see it, it's like asking your parents for permission to paint the walls pink, while they're trying to update the plumbing in the basement, and know that the water heater, which needs to be replaced, will set them back a pretty penny.

FWIW, Microsoft and Apple are exactly the same as FreeBSD in that regard - just try asking THEM to change their defaults. They're also gonna tell you that if you have the tech savvy, you can install your own stuff and get it themed to your own liking, but no, they're not gonna change their defaults just because somebody made some noise about not liking how the paint on the bedroom wall looks.


----------



## msplsh (Jan 31, 2022)

astyle said:


> not gonna change their defaults just because somebody made some noise about not liking how the paint on the bedroom wall looks.


Absolutely not true.  Look how Apple changed the Mac Safari 15 tabs after their redesign created a giant storm.


----------



## astyle (Jan 31, 2022)

msplsh said:


> Absolutely not true.  Look how Apple changed the Mac Safari 15 tabs after their redesign created a giant storm.


Apple does have a large userbase, and enough users complained instead of switching to something else. Besides, Apple does have a financial incentive to do that. FreeBSD Foundation is an NPO. 
--
[sarcasm] Apple's default color scheme is this ugly stainless steel look with rounded corners on buttons! I want the *default* to be magenta, looking edgier, or else I'm not gonna buy Apple stuff any more! [/sarcasm]


----------



## msplsh (Jan 31, 2022)

Ok, those are great reasons why what you said isn't true, but what you said still isn't true.  It also points out another thing that is not true: FreeBSD is _not_ exactly the same as Apple in this regard.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 31, 2022)

jammied said:


> … fancy desktop environment is the same time we start attracting people who undermine the very things that are unique benefits of BSD, i.e. stability and security. …



Historically, Apple did not suffer from the combination of stability + a superb desktop environment.


----------



## msplsh (Jan 31, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Historically, Apple did not suffer from the combination of stability + a superb desktop environment.


The two major vendors for these things seems to "stabilize" around the same time with protected memory so I don't know what you're saying here.

Either way, I think gatekeeping FreeBSD to only people who can setup a WM in X or Wayland from a command line is not a good plan.


----------



## bsduck (Jan 31, 2022)

msplsh said:


> gatekeeping FreeBSD to only people who can setup a WM in X or Wayland from a command line


No need to know it before, one just has to follow instructions in the handbook.


----------



## msplsh (Jan 31, 2022)

Or just do it automatically and only send them to the handbook when it doesn't work.  If an automatic system worked most of the time, it could probably produce WAY more helpful information when something goes wrong.


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> Or just do it automatically and only send them to the handbook when it doesn't work.  If an automatic system worked most of the time, it could probably produce WAY more helpful information when something goes wrong.


FWIW, I'm trying to automate KDE upgrades via Poudriere, I've been at it since June of '21, and still not done (but getting there, this thread is where I'm discussing the latest stumbling block). All the components _are_ actually described in the Handbook and the Porter's Handbook, but you still gotta put it all together, and connect the dots. Just providing an example of what it would take to actually automate the process and maintain that automation. I'm having fun with a personal project, which I took on because FreeBSD has a well-organized framework, and usable manuals, to boot. If it were Linux, I'd be giving up pretty quickly.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> I think gatekeeping FreeBSD to only people who can setup a WM in X or Wayland from a command line is not a good plan.



It's not gatekeeping. FreeBSD is not in the desktop business. FreeBSD makes hammers and nails. FreeBSD does not make houses. It's up to you to use the tools. If you want a house built automatically, go somewhere else. That's what Windows is for.


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> It's not gatekeeping. FreeBSD is not in the desktop business. FreeBSD makes hammers and nails. FreeBSD does not make houses. It's up to you to use the tools. If you want a house built automatically, go somewhere else. That's what Windows is for.


Comments like that make you the gatekeeper. I'd try something different, like, "We can help, just ask!"


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 1, 2022)

astyle said:


> Comments like that make you the gatekeeper.


Comments like mine are definitions, not gatekeeping. When one has a certain job they do, saying one does not do work outside of that definition is not gatekeeping. It's constraints to stay on course.


----------



## bobmc (Feb 1, 2022)

something happening here ..  https://airyx.org/faq.html ..


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> Either way, I think gatekeeping FreeBSD to only people who can setup a WM in X or Wayland from a command line is not a good plan.


I'm not sure I agree. For people to get the most out of FreeBSD, they can't skip some of these details. I don't think we are helping them by just shoving them onto an easy environment (which isn't really FreeBSD; they might as well be using Linux or even Cygwin/WSL).

Just like 3D graphics programming; sure you can use a bunch of easy libraries to make some images appear; but without understanding at least a few of the fundamentals of vectors / matrices, you aren't going to be able to get the most out of it or progress.

Someone who can't get a couple of commands working to get a WM running means that they might also start opening up their system to security risks without realizing either because they have no clue whats going on; they don't know what they are typing / copying and pasting.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 1, 2022)

kpedersen I always roll my eyes at the Microsoft Surface commercials that always show how easy it is to create beautiful graphics and images all because of the Surface as if there is no effort or knowledge required on the part of the user.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 1, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> kpedersen I always roll my eyes at the Microsoft Surface commercials that always show how easy it is to create beautiful graphics and images all because of the Surface as if there is no effort or knowledge required on the part of the user.


Indeed. Some of these commercials really are quite funny. I came across one similar to this the other day and was thinking to myself; what serious work is this guy ever going do with no keyboard and only consumer drawing apps from the Windows Store with his little stylus XD.







It may looks "fancy" but it is defective, all the way to the landfill.

The next one is this (He has a keyboard this time!) but it makes me laugh to imagine the fussy little stand at the back slipping down his knees and him having to grab the useless floppy keyboard to reposition it every few words typed.






People who have been using computers for many decades really do deserve more than this crap. Those that are relatively new to computers, well, they don't know any better how absurd things really are these days.

Last one I promise!






Do people really get paid to do whatever the fsck this guy is doing? He should write his notes in text form, suitable for an email, like normal people do. His clients are unlikely to have his same "scribble app" installed so can't even engage with his "work"


----------



## msplsh (Feb 1, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> Someone who can't get a couple of commands working to get a WM running means that they might also start opening up their system to security risks without realizing either because they have no clue whats going on; they don't know what they are typing / copying and pasting.


What you're not considering is that perhaps people are not complete morons, but they would rather just not _*want*_ to learn how to get X working so they can get on with their life continue doing their compiler, network, or any other thing that is not sysadmin work.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 1, 2022)

jammied said:


> 𡀦… undermine …





grahamperrin said:


> Historically, Apple did not suffer from the combination of stability + a superb desktop environment.





msplsh said:


> … I don't know what you're saying here. …



I mean: 

we _can_ have good desktop environments with FreeBSD (not integral to FreeBSD)
a combination of two good things does *not* undermine FreeBSD.
I mean, for example: 

the baking industry was not undermined when Marmite was invented.
To me, it's absurd when people want FreeBSD to be *not *used for certain purposes; some of these imagined preventions are quite ridiculous. I mean: 

if you tell the general public to *not* put Marmite on toast, the people who enjoy Marmite on toast will continue enjoying Marmite on toast.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 1, 2022)

astyle said:


> … I'd try something different, like, "We can help, just ask!"



That's not different, that's normal.


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> kpedersen I always roll my eyes at the Microsoft Surface commercials that always show how easy it is to create beautiful graphics and images all because of the Surface as if there is no effort or knowledge required on the part of the user.


Yeah, and here's a frustrated Surface user (tongue-in-cheek, but still):




I do agree with kpedersen , it is silly to expect that others have the same cool apps you do.


----------



## richardtoohey2 (Feb 1, 2022)

nap said:


> I was just sharing a simple thought and what a ride reading all of your comments. So here's my conclusion.
> Surely freebsd can have the best of both worlds. From my perspective to think only in absolutes is just not right.
> Maybe from your angle the BSD desktop doesn't sound smart, but it can be an option for all of those who just want an out of the box experience. No tweaks or headaches. Plain simple eye candy and responsive UI with all the standard features.
> Anyway in the end it's just a vague idea but fun to try.


My 2c:

1) Personally I don't want a GUI or DE on FreeBSD.  I use FreeBSD for the lean stable base server install.  I can add to that, and for my personal use case that's enough.  Obviously that doesn't mean that a lot (maybe a LOT more) people would prefer a "full-fat" version or multiple versions - something like Linux Mint with different DEs to try.  But for me and others - a lean stable foundation I can build on is a good base and one of the key things that attracts me to use FreeBSD - for _some_ things.  If FreeBSD ends up bloating or focused on the desktop experience then it might lose some users.

2) As others have said - there are so many options - I use Windows, Mac, Linux if I want a GUI experience that will just work with most hardware and software.  The manufacturers will throw more resource at those operating systems than they ever will at FreeBSD.

3) I worked on a school parent teachers association (PTA) and there was a small core group of us - less than 10.  But many many many people would come with their great ideas that the PTA should do - or "someone" should do.  When you asked them (the people with the ideas) to run with their ideas and actually make things happen - silence and shocked looks.  Oh, no, they didn't have the time or energy to IMPLEMENT all the ideas - that was up to the core PTA.  Sometimes their ideas were great etc. but there just wasn't the resource to make them happen.  And that's the same with the BSDs - there are a core of people that can make things happen, but just not enough of them to satisfy all the ideas, needs, dreams, requirements of the end-users.

So as a thought experience - it would be great if FreeBSD had the resource to have multiple versions with multiple DEs (and a lean version for servers) and it supported everything under the sun (graphics, network, wifi) etc. - but I don't think that's ever going to happen.  And if it did happen - wouldn't it be Linux?


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Marmite


I didn't even know about the very existence of that beer brewing byproduct until 5 minutes ago today.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 1, 2022)

richardtoohey2 said:


> … If FreeBSD ends up bloating …



I can't imagine it. 

We have removals from FreeBSD, which are rational.



richardtoohey2 said:


> or focused on the desktop experience …



I foresee FreeBSD remaining focused on FreeBSD, which is getting better for desktop environment use cases.


----------



## CuatroTorres (Feb 1, 2022)

An attractive and focused desktop is a great thing, but if you want popularity you necessarily have to focus on other non-technical aspects, like help desk in your local language. That is not happening.


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

CuatroTorres said:


> An attractive and focused desktop is a great thing, but if you want popularity you necessarily have to focus on other non-technical aspects, like help desk in your local language. That is not happening.


FreeBSD's Handbook is available in Japanese and German, if you like. KDE has been localized to those same languages. We can help you put it all together, just ask here at the Forums, and we can point you to the Handbook, and even help with connecting the dots.  It does help to remember, FreeBSD and KDE are separate projects.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 1, 2022)

richardtoohey2 said:


> … wouldn't it be Linux?



No.


----------



## Crivens (Feb 1, 2022)

astyle said:


> [sarcasm] Apple's default color scheme is this ugly stainless steel look with rounded corners on buttons! I want the *default* to be magenta, looking edgier, or else I'm not gonna buy Apple stuff any more! [/sarcasm]


That is not sarcasm. That is what Deutsche Telecom told to Steve. And they wanted the browser to hardwire the home button to _their_ home page. Steve gave them the 132 answer.


----------



## CuatroTorres (Feb 1, 2022)

astyle said:


> ...just ask here at the* [english]* Forums...


----------



## jammied (Feb 1, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Historically, Apple did not suffer from the combination of stability + a superb desktop environment.


Yes, but MacOS is also a commercial OS. Which in this case I think is a fairly significant consideration. It is used by people paying to have everything done for them.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> What you're not considering is that perhaps people are not complete morons, but they would rather just not _*want*_ to learn how to get X working so they can get on with their life continue doing their compiler, network, or any other thing that is not sysadmin work.


You barely have to learn how to get X working to just type a few simple pkg commands. If they are "too busy" for that with their high flying life, then how do they expect to be able to install development / networking tools you mentioned they might be interested in?

FreeBSD is the wrong tool to choose if you just want a quick rush job.



grahamperrin said:


> combination of stability + a superb desktop environment.


Ultimately that is an opinion. My opinion is that I actively choose to use the command line, just to avoid Apple's naff awkward interface. Opinions are effectively worthless but unfortunately computing environments aren't easily something that can be measured.

Guys that want UIs are almost overwhelmingly well catered for with Windows, macOS, Linux, NomadBSD, iPhone, Android, etc, etc. FreeBSD obviously supports them because it is a very capable OS but there is more to computing than all this.


----------



## zirias@ (Feb 1, 2022)

Probably repeating someone's thoughts here, but: FreeBSD doesn't need/want to be "popular" as some click-once-to-install desktop OS. If it was, it wouldn't be popular any more for _what it is_: A general-purpose OS aimed towards (semi-)professional users who need the full flexibility of some modern *nix system.

That said, there's nothing wrong with distributions or forks building something like that on top of FreeBSD. Well, many of them died, so there _is_ something wrong: keeping it alive and having enough contributors to do so, but that's more of an organizational problem.

There's also nothing wrong with developing some "DE" specifically for BSD systems, it might actually be kind of nice, but keep it a separate project. Well, for lumina, see above. You also need the manpower to get somewhere.

Trying to do that as part of the FreeBSD project would just draw manpower from much more important things: Maintaining and developing a well-designed (and general-purpose) base system and maintaining ports to build and run 3rd party software on FreeBSD. There's no justification to do so: Only few FreeBSD users would benefit from that work. Some don't even use FreeBSD on a desktop, and from those who do, most are perfectly happy with all the existing window managers and desktop environments available from ports.

Finally, some thought about "eye-candy": Although "good looks" can improve your user experience, and some things (like carefully applied translucency and drop-shadows, NOT over-doing it) can help with quick orientation on a crowded screen, people tend to really over-do it (someone remembers those weird themes for enlightenment wm?). The consequences are worse UX:

Many things are a matter of taste, over-doing it will lead to designs that most people will just hate
A lot of "bells and whistles" will draw your attention *away* from whatever screen content actually matters
So, just be careful with that.


----------



## CuatroTorres (Feb 1, 2022)

I think a conventional desktop is best defined by the hardware support and the applications it runs over anything else. If you use FreeBSD for this, it's because you have contact with this system. There will always be easier, more extended and better supported alternatives. It's a choice.

Describe FreeBSD in three words only, seems like a good comprehension exercise:









						What is FreeBSD, actually? Think again.
					

Recently there was a challenge on Twitter to “Describe FreeBSD in three words only”. An operating system. Right? Berkeley Software…




					medium.com


----------



## mer (Feb 1, 2022)

"My Daily Driver"  

I agree with alot of what Zirias  wrote in #57.  DE preference is like car preference, house color, heck even choice of spouse.  
"eyecandy" in a DE seems to be defined now by how much visual overload we can put on the screen.
For years my preferred desktop wallpaper is defined as "solid, #333333"  because I find it easiest on my eyes and not losing anything in clutter.
"themes" (for lack of a better term) tend towards dark backgrounds with contrasting foreground again, because it's easier on my eyes.
All the spinning twirling exploding visual effects when I close a window, get disabled.  I want the window to close/iconize, I don't need to see it black hole into an explosion.

Forks/distributions focused on the desktop user have a lot of good stuff with them, watched a youtube of latest GhostBSD install and amazing how simple it was.  Of course I don't like their default choice of MATE DE, but that's just me.  What it tells me is some of the effort put into detecting hardware, loading the correct drivers, etc by default are very useful.  That is the kind of stuff I would like to see rolled up into a port (new or existing) that would let the handbook simply say "For graphical environment/desktop use, doas pkg install blah && run blah.install and follow the prompts".


----------



## jardows (Feb 1, 2022)

nap said:


> I was just sharing a simple thought and what a ride reading all of your comments. So here's my conclusion.
> Surely freebsd can have the best of both worlds. From my perspective to think only in absolutes is just not right.
> Maybe from your angle the BSD desktop doesn't sound smart, but it can be an option for all of those who just want an out of the box experience. No tweaks or headaches. Plain simple eye candy and responsive UI with all the standard features.
> Anyway in the end it's just a vague idea but fun to try.


Here's a serious suggestion - you wouldn't need to create yet another DE or WM, just write a theme pack that customizes the main ones being used, then make it as a port.  For example, I use primarily XFCE, and sometimes KDE.  I almost always replace the little mouse or the "K" in the "start" buttons with a FreeBSD logo.  Just a nice little touch that makes this instantly recognizable for not being just another OSS Desktop system.  Someone with some more artistic flair and patience for making themes could easily create a theme pack that would give some consistency across the various  DEs.  Then you just have to advertise it for people to use, promote it, etc.


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

jardows said:


> Here's a serious suggestion - you wouldn't need to create yet another DE or WM, just write a theme pack that customizes the main ones being used, then make it as a port.  For example, I use primarily XFCE, and sometimes KDE.  I almost always replace the little mouse or the "K" in the "start" buttons with a FreeBSD logo.  Just a nice little touch that makes this instantly recognizable for not being just another OSS Desktop system.  Someone with some more artistic flair and patience for making themes could easily create a theme pack that would give some consistency across the various  DEs.  Then you just have to advertise it for people to use, promote it, etc.


I'd rather not add yet another port to an already rather unwieldy collection. We have truckloads of language modules as ports (Perl, Ruby, PHP, etc). Those themes should be installable to $HOME, and available through the DE's channels, rather than crowding the Ports at FreeBSD. Just my opinion here.


----------



## SirDice (Feb 1, 2022)

When you buy a Lego model, do you expect it to come pre-built in the box? Or is the biggest reason why you bought that Lego kit the joy (and sometimes frustration) of building it yourself? Same with FreeBSD, you get all the building blocks and a big fat manual that tells you how to build a specific model. But nothing's stopping you from using those building blocks and build something creative that isn't in the manual. And that's why we like it.


----------



## mer (Feb 1, 2022)

SirDice said:


> When you buy a Lego model, do you expect it to come pre-built in the box? Or is the biggest reason why you bought that Lego kit the joy (and sometimes frustration) of building it yourself?


Perfect analogy.


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

SirDice said:


> When you buy a Lego model, do you expect it to come pre-built in the box? Or is the biggest reason why you bought that Lego kit the joy (and sometimes frustration) of building it yourself? Same with FreeBSD, you get all the building blocks and a big fat manual that tells you how to build a specific model. But nothing's stopping you from using those building blocks and build something creative that isn't in the manual. And that's why we like it.


Some Lego kits do come pre-built in the box if you shop around. But those are a pain to get out of the box, and the one I linked to is $680 USD. I like to compare FreeBSD to cooking - Just try combining regular flour, yeast, water/milk, eggs, salt and sugar for a good texture. Temperature makes a difference, so do relative amounts, the possibilities are endless with just those raw ingredients. FreeBSD is the farm for just a few high quality ingredients, not a cooking research school.


----------



## forquare (Feb 1, 2022)

Sometimes around here it is said how Linux is just a kernel, other times it is bloated.
FreeBSD, on the other hand, is "perfectly" in the middle - perhaps not the word folks use, but you'd get that impression reading messages - both a complete system and not bloated...

There is also a lot of "in my day <ramble bumble something about it being better and the kids today don't know what they've got>", which makes me think that what FreeBSD users really want is for everything to stand still for just five minutes and stop pissing about with progressing.

I'm not saying progression/change for progressions/change sake is a good thing (nor that progression and change are the same thing).  Far from it.  But neither is standing still for standing stills sake.


----------



## Jose (Feb 1, 2022)

forquare said:


> There is also a lot of "in my day <ramble bumble something about it being better and the kids today don't know what they've got>", which makes me think that what FreeBSD users really want is for everything to stand still for just five minutes and stop pissing about with progressing.


Hmm, that sounds familiar. See #3 here:





						Systemd: The Biggest Fallacies
					

Over this past year, I've seen a lot of frequently-used but logically invalid arguments for using systemd.  This blog post is meant to serve...




					judecnelson.blogspot.com
				





forquare said:


> I'm not saying progression/change for progressions/change sake is a good thing (nor that progression and change are the same thing).  Far from it.  But neither is standing still for standing stills sake.


Nice straw man you got there.


----------



## msplsh (Feb 1, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> You barely have to learn how to get X working to just type a few simple pkg commands. If they are "too busy" for that with their high flying life, then how do they expect to be able to install development / networking tools you mentioned they might be interested in?
> 
> FreeBSD is the wrong tool to choose if you just want a quick rush job.


1. I get X working, but it is never a "few simple pkg commands."  Having to memorize, look up, or disassemble to read the model on whatever video card you have in your system in order to pkg install the correct driver when the computer is capable of just telling you via PCI ids is frankly ridiculous.

2. You didn't read my comment.  It's not that they're too busy, is that they don't want to, and the computer is completely capable of doing it for them.

FreeBSD is _inconvenient_ and it does not have to be that way.  To argue to keep inconvenience because you like it that way is to gatekeep.  I'm just saying that a script or installer to do these things would go a long way.  People can just choose not to use it if they like it the way it is.  THAT is the FreeBSD way.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> I get X working, but it is never a "few simple pkg commands."


Yes it is.



msplsh said:


> Having to memorize, look up, or disassemble to read the model on whatever video card you have


No you don't



msplsh said:


> FreeBSD is _inconvenient_ and it does not have to be that way.


No it's not. I reinstalled everything a few months ago and it took me maybe 20 minutes including all the software packages I use daily. Far better than Linux where it installs too many things I don't want and have to uninstall them, find out that broke something, leaves unused packages behind, corrupts the OS and I have to reinstall all over again, possibly repeating the same thing.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> in order to pkg install the correct driver when the computer is capable of just telling you via PCI ids is frankly ridiculous.


I believe the only awkward one where you need to do that here is Nvidia because it is a proprietary (and out of kernel) blob. But I am not entirely sure that is any different whether installing the driver for Windows or Linux.


----------



## msplsh (Feb 1, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> No


Yes.

Ahh, see how productive that is as a comment!


----------



## msplsh (Feb 1, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> entirely sure that is any different whether installing the driver for Windows or Linux.


Windows detects and downloads the correct driver at least to get a framebuffer working, if not modest acceleration.  I don't know what linux does.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 1, 2022)

CuatroTorres said:


> … Describe FreeBSD in three words only, seems like a good comprehension exercise:



An archive of the Medium page: <http://archive.today/2022.02.01-181...-is-freebsd-actually-think-again-200c2752d026>



> > … the core operating system (base.txz) …



Does the core not include the kernel?


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> FreeBSD is _inconvenient_


Yeah, so is peeling your own potatoes before boiling them with a bit of salt. You want a bag of potato chips instead, and not risk cutting your fingers while peeling the potatoes (which also need to be washed/rinsed beforehand).


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> Windows detects and downloads the correct driver at least to get a framebuffer working, if not modest acceleration.  I don't know what linux does.


In the same way that vesa or scfb is always available from the xorg meta package. In all cases a user will still need to manually install the actual correct driver for power management (suspend / resume, brightness on laptops, etc), wider range of native resolutions and 2D/3D acceleration.


----------



## mer (Feb 1, 2022)

The biggest "user issue" seems to be "what driver do I install".   Do I use modeset, xorg driver, nvidia, which version, blah blah blah.

This is where things like GhostBSD and others have their value for "less inclined" users.  Hardware detection.  Probe what's available, look up in a database, present the user with a choice.  The downside is newer hardware and getting the database updated to choose the correct driver.  Much like updating pci ids for new hardware.


----------



## freezr (Feb 1, 2022)

I think that sometime some automation would be fine.

For instance the nvidia-driver in order to work requires a couple of lines in the RC.CONF...

You must read the handbook and do it by yourself, or the installer might be proactive asking if you want allow it to make the change and pleasing your laziness.

I do respect this choice making my laziness sad...


----------



## mer (Feb 1, 2022)

i915 mode setting also requires editing kld_list in /etc/rc.conf.
That is what the setup stuff in GhostBSD and other typically do.
Figure out what hardware is installed, determine the best driver, setup the init files correctly.
Modern X works very well for a large percentage of cases, most folks don't need any special configuration files.
For the cases that need tweaking, it's often relatively easy once you know what you need.
Again, this is where a smart script could help.


----------



## astyle (Feb 1, 2022)

msplsh said:


> Windows detects and downloads the correct driver at least to get a framebuffer working, if not modest acceleration.  I don't know what linux does.


If you can see the installer after booting the install stick, you know that the framebuffer works. Heck, if you can see the BIOS, you'd know the framebuffer works. Linux does the same thing, BTW.
--
If Linux is Spam that you can eat straight out of the can, then FreeBSD is a nice cut of raw Kobe beef that still needs some cooking before it can be served.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 1, 2022)

mer said:


> The biggest "user issue" seems to be "what driver do I install".   Do I use modeset, xorg driver, nvidia, which version, blah blah blah.


Ultimately these are all Nvidia issues (you don't have any issues like this with open-source drivers provided by FreeBSD). I get round this by not choosing Nvidia. Or perhaps a bug request could be submitted on Nvidia's forums? They could probably merge the modesetting and classic driver into one module if they deem your request worthy of their time.

Intel was a bit messy a while back (mainly because we started using Linux kind of driver infrastructure. This has cleaned up considerably since).


----------



## freezr (Feb 2, 2022)

These aren't just Nvidia issues...

Gnome, KDE, XFCE and also LibreOffice requires to add a couple of configurations in a couple of configuration files.

It wouldn't bad if the package manager would be so kind to ask to you if you prefer that it makes these changes for you.
I think the meaning behind this is to preserve an educational aspect and I do not disagree with this purpose.


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 2, 2022)

Arch Linux has been pretty successful in directing people to RTFM for any sort of desktop configuration, whilst gaining tons of popularity. In fact, their philosophy is grealy inspired by the BSDs. So what makes one think it's ok to have a desktop ship in base? Let alone the behemoth that is X.org. I highly doubt the committers would bother with that sort of burden. Seriously, someone should patch bsdinstall if they really care that much.


----------



## richardtoohey2 (Feb 2, 2022)

Beastie7 said:


> someone should patch bsdinstall


But some will say that's too ugly and it needs to be replaced with a lovely GUI installer.  That works out the box on any graphics and has Wifi support built-in.  Etc.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 2, 2022)

mer said:


> … GhostBSD …



There's *so* much to *like/love* about GhostBSD.



Beastie7 said:


> … what makes one think it's ok to have a desktop ship in base? …



At least one thing inspires thoughts of OK-ness:

GhostBSD!​
– I'm teasing  but only half-joking.​
As an example of a distribution that's user-friendly from the outset, GhostBSD excels. IMHO it's the gold standard.

FreeBSD base

I like the current separation. Kernel + base without a desktop environment.

For now, continue to make FreeBSD a better basis for desktop/notebook/laptop use cases.



tgl said:


> … For instance the nvidia-driver in order to work requires a couple of lines in …





tgl said:


> … Gnome, KDE, XFCE and also LibreOffice requires to add …



For fun, a list of ports where the package message includes the word _edit_: <https://www.freshports.org/search.p...own=asc&search=Search&format=html&branch=head>



tgl said:


> … I think the meaning behind this is to preserve an educational aspect and I do not disagree with this purpose. …


----------



## 6502 (Feb 2, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> The target audience for FreeBSD is not pop culture, kids and their games. The target audience is those who need and want a solid, serious foundation for their work. FreeBSD does not create desktop software.


I understand your viewpoint. But I think that there is no neutral position - one OS can go forward or backward in popularity. To be vital FreeBSD needs as much users as possible, even non-specialists, kids, or random users who think that FreeBSD is a Linux distro. In short: More users => more attention from hardware manufacturers => more drivers/support for any hardware => more software written for FreeBSD, including desktop, business, etc. => more users and "marketshare". And this needs desktop support even if the target group are serious users looking for solid server OS without GUI. I am sure that nearly all users from this forum will be happy to see 200 million FreeBSD users instead of 200 thousand.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 2, 2022)

Just to clarify to those who are pro-"X11 in base". I do certainly see some benefits. OpenBSD does this and it really works well. In many ways X11 is quite bound to the OS if you plan to do anything graphical and effectively just another set of drivers. If anything, "out of tree" drivers like Nvidia are a bit of a mess so it seems counter-intuitive to have "all" of the video drivers partly out of the tree (really, only the proprietary blobs should be excluded).

This is where the Intel driver can be added into kld_list as part of the installer perhaps (though since we don't do this for i.e acpi_ibm on thinkpads, it would feel a little inconsistent)

If X11 was ever brought into base (long ago, it used to be a base "set"), it would need to be seriously cleaned up. No duplicate versions of LLVM, no dbus, no python, no wayland things as dependencies. It might even be easier to throw it away (or leave it in ports) and bring in Xenocara just because it is monolithic and easier to maintain for FreeBSD. This would still be a big undertaking and in this time the developers wouldn't even be thinking about how to get Xfce (the current winner?) in base, which is an even bigger mess (all DEs are).

But it also does run the risk of opening us up to people pining for X11 based-GUI installers and not even knowing why and just starting to make things heavy and messy.


----------



## shkhln (Feb 2, 2022)

6502 said:


> In short: More users => more attention from hardware manufacturers => more drivers/support for any hardware => more software written for FreeBSD


It's precisely the other way around.



6502 said:


> I am sure that nearly all users from this forum will be happy to see 200 million FreeBSD users instead of 200 thousand.


I'm impressed you think FreeBSD approaches 200 000 desktop users.


----------



## shkhln (Feb 2, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> "out of tree" drivers like Nvidia


That's all of them at the moment.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 2, 2022)

shkhln said:


> That's all of them at the moment.


Isn't it only the Linux KPI stuff and the Xorg "hooks". The core parts of many video drivers are still in the kernel (to allow for i.e a virtual framebuffer). Though reading back, I had subsequently expanded that bit.


----------



## shkhln (Feb 2, 2022)

I don't think it's fair to consider unaccelerated video a contender in the desktop case at all.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 2, 2022)

shkhln said:


> I don't think it's fair to consider unaccelerated video a contender in the desktop case at all.


Yep, I pretty much agree. This is my argument for why Xorg being part of FreeBSD base isn't the worst thing in the world. Currently we have this slightly strange situation of video drivers partly being included in base, partly being in ports (and some of them are even tied quite closely to the kernel versions).

Plus, if we can get Xorg in base before Wayland compositors might make any ground, it might make people think twice before jumping to the broken junk .


----------



## zirias@ (Feb 2, 2022)

In a perfect world, X11 shouldn't include any "drivers". Historically, accessing some graphics card wasn't much more than accessing some memory-mapped framebuffer memory, and X could do this running as root. But that's a weird design. Any hardware drivers should be independent from some windowing system, the latter should just use abstracted interfaces (and this is what's happening today, e.g. with the "modesetting driver").

X11 shouldn't be in base either, for several reasons, for example these:

It's not the only option, at least in theory. It's a mess carrying a lot of deprecated stuff. Something else will replace it eventually, at least that's my bet
Base should be small. It should include anything to make the system functional enough for an admin to carry out important tasks. Nothing more.
A general-purpose OS must be suitable for a desktop/workstation. This doesn't mean all software necessary for that must be part of it, it just means software necessary for it must work.



kpedersen said:


> Isn't it only the Linux KPI stuff and the Xorg "hooks". The core parts of video drivers are still in the kernel (to allow for i.e a framebuffer).


Not really. Of course, drivers for EFI, VESA framebuffers are present, but nothing else. Drivers based on Linux DRM/DRI/KMS (for Radeon, AMD, intel, ...) were completely removed and are developed as a separate project, available as a port.


----------



## 6502 (Feb 2, 2022)

shkhln said:


> I'm impressed you think FreeBSD approaches 200 000 desktop users.


The number is too small or too big? I made comparison of 1000 times and numbers are not precise.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 2, 2022)

Zirias said:


> X11 shouldn't be in base either, for several reasons, for example these:


Yes, you're not wrong. I think this is why it was removed in the first place. I think the cons of Xorg in base, do outweigh the pros ultimately.


Zirias said:


> It's not the only option, at least in theory. It's a mess carrying a lot of deprecated stuff. Something else will replace it eventually, at least that's my bet


I suppose the same could be said for most things in base. For example GCC -> Clang. Granted Xorg is a lot more messy.


----------



## msplsh (Feb 2, 2022)

I personally don't want X in base or any kind of GUI more complicated than bsdinstall.  I just think a script to do boring, automate-able, and "whoops I made I typo" stuff when installing X would be a benefit to FreeBSD.


----------



## astyle (Feb 2, 2022)

richardtoohey2 said:


> But some will say that's too ugly and it needs to be replaced with a lovely GUI installer.  That works out the box on any graphics and has Wifi support built-in.  Etc.


Work on a different installer started in April of last year, possibly earlier:









						Introduction
					

FreeBSD is an operating system used to power modern servers, desktops, and embedded platforms.




					www.freebsd.org
				




Also, FreeBSD is actively supporting a transition to Wayland. I posted the link on my profile back in December:






						Wayland 1.20 Released With Proper FreeBSD Support, Protocol Additions - Phoronix
					






					www.phoronix.com
				




A bit too late to start making noise about 'Xorg in base', I'd think.


----------



## freezr (Feb 2, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> There's *so* much to *like/love* about GhostBSD.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only the current latest version is 100% based on FreeBSD, one of things that made me prefer FreeBSD over GhostBSD was OpenRC as default init. That made impossible taking advantage of FreeBSD forum to troubleshoot GhostBSD issues.


----------



## jmos (Feb 2, 2022)

tgl said:


> Gnome, KDE, XFCE and also LibreOffice requires to add a couple of configurations in a couple of configuration files.


Checked. First two with a blank, brandnew, basic, default & clean 13.0/amd64 installation:

Gnome: `pkg install xorg gnome3` - you've just got to fire up DBus first (f.e. with `service dbus onestart`), and the desktop can be used. I've been pointed to it by just reading the error message when trying without DBus (which I found already being installed as dependency).

Xfce: `pkg install xorg xfce4` - runs out of the box.

LibreOffice: Never had to configure anything for it, works out of the box.

Haven't checked KDE (doesn't like my VNC), but: As far I can see it's not that bad on FreeBSD.


----------



## ayleid96 (Feb 2, 2022)

I know this is of topic but... but using fish shell sucks hard


----------



## astyle (Feb 2, 2022)

ayleid96 said:


> I know this is of topic but... but using fish shell sucks hard


So switch to a different shell, then.


----------



## ralphbsz (Feb 2, 2022)

6502 said:


> I am sure that nearly all users from this forum will be happy to see 200 million FreeBSD users instead of 200 thousand.


It's hard to measure how many people use a desktop operating system. The best way I know of is to look at web browser statistics. To begin with, about 2/3 or 3/4 of all worldwide web traffic originates on mobile (meaning Android or iOS), so desktop use is already a small fraction. Further breaking desktop use down, I found the following statistics: About 76% is Windows, 16% is Mac, 4% is unknown, 2.5% is ChromeOS, 2% is Linux, 0.01% is FreeBSD, all other OSes are smaller. That's not a joke: FreeBSD is 200 times smaller than Linux, which is already only a few percent of total. The total number of clients using web services is several billion (a large fraction of all humans on the planet are still not connected to the web, amazingly enough), so multiplying this out puts the number of FreeBSD desktop users at about 50,000, give or take a factor of 2 or 3.

And personally, having more desktop users on FreeBSD will not make me happy. At best, it is irrelevant to me, as I chose to not use FreeBSD on the desktop, instead I use it for servers. Actually, I think a lot of desktop users is a net negative, since in many cases desktop users tend to be less experienced and less thorough. A lot of traffic I see on this forum or on Reddit about FreeBSD desktop users is just "distro hopping": users who think that FreeBSD is sort of another Linux distro, they want to try it once, it doesn't work the way they expect, the get frustrated or angry, post a few questions, and then give up.


----------



## freezr (Feb 2, 2022)

jmos said:


> Xfce: `pkg install xorg xfce4` - runs out of the box.



If you add the same lines are required for Gnome and KDE you get lesser complaints.


----------



## astyle (Feb 2, 2022)

tgl said:


> If you add the same lines are required for Gnome and KDE you get lesser complaints.


The manual says so already, if you bother to read it, pay attention, and realize that yeah, the steps are the same.


----------



## Brian546 (Feb 2, 2022)

Typically the desktop distro hoppers have no clue why they're trying to switch from Fedora, Ubuntu, etc to FreeBSD. Even though those distros have literally everything they're going to need they're not going to benefit from any of the things that make FreeBSD unique. Someone told them that systemd is bad, so they feel the need to switch.

Frankly, I hate the idea of expanding the base. I'd rather the project be as low profile as humanly possible.


----------



## freezr (Feb 2, 2022)

astyle said:


> The manual says so already, if you bother to read it, pay attention, and realize that yeah, the steps are the same.



The handbook or the manpage?


----------



## astyle (Feb 2, 2022)

Brian546 said:


> Typically the desktop distro hoppers have no clue why they're trying to switch from Fedora, Ubuntu, etc to FreeBSD. Even though those distros have literally everything they're going to need they're not going to benefit from any of the things that make FreeBSD unique. Someone told them that systemd is bad, so they feel the need to switch.
> 
> Frankly, I hate the idea of expanding the base. I wish for it to be as low profile as humanly possible.


I wouldn't have switched over to FreeBSD if KDE were the only thing involved in my decision. A lot of stuff under the hood is just much better engineered at FreeBSD than in any Linux distro. Yeah, I know FreeBSD lags in hardware support, but it's got a much better organized software internals. Just try keeping up with `ifconfig` - every linux distro has it in different places, and it varies version to version, too!


tgl said:


> The handbook or the manpage?


Do they tell you to do different things?


----------



## freezr (Feb 3, 2022)

astyle said:


> Do they tell you to do different things?



The handbook says only to add `dbus` to `rc.conf` but don't say anything about to add any "proc" line to the `fstab`, I read the error messages noticing the panel was complain about missing that "proc" line.

There is not any manpage about how to configure XFCE, but only to specific packages, unless it is somewhere else.


```
$ man xfce4-[tab]
xfce4-dict                (1: a client program to query different dictionaries)
xfce4-notifyd-config                   (1: configuration GUI for xfce4-notifyd)
xfce4-popup-whiskermenu                                 (1: shows Whisker Menu)
xfce4-power-manager                               (1: The Xfce 4 Power manager)
xfce4-power-manager-settings  (1: Settings dialog for the Xfce 4 Power manager)
xfce4-screensaver                  (1: The Xfce Desktop Screensaver and Locker)
xfce4-screensaver-command                        (1: controls Xfce screensaver)
xfce4-screensaver-preferences                   (1: Configure Xfce Screensaver)
xfce4-screenshooter              (1: manual page for xfce4-screenshooter 1.9.9)
xfce4-session                       (1: Starts up the Xfce Desktop Environment)
xfce4-session-logout                                    (1: Logs out from Xfce)
xfce4-terminal                                   (1: A Terminal emulator for X)
```


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 3, 2022)

tgl said:


> The handbook says only to add `dbus` to `rc.conf` but don't say anything about to add any "proc" line to the `fstab`, I read the error messages noticing the panel was complain about missing that "proc" line. …



Re: <https://forums.freebsd.org/posts/554268> we're advised that `proc` is no longer a requirement. In the words of a developer: "none of the kde software should rely on proc …".

tgl please: if you're certain of an exception, please make a bug report, or if you prefer, open a topic here:









						KDE
					

The K Desktop Environment




					forums.freebsd.org
				




Thank you.


----------



## astyle (Feb 3, 2022)

tgl said:


> The handbook says only to add `dbus` to `rc.conf` but don't say anything about to add any "proc" line to the `fstab`, I read the error messages noticing the panel was complain about missing that "proc" line.
> 
> There is not any manpage about how to configure XFCE, but only to specific packages, unless it is somewhere else.
> 
> ...


Ahh... manpages will tell you how to *use* something - what flags you can pass to the utility, etc. The Handbook will tell you how to *set up* something - what to put into a config file, name of the package, etc. As an example, ifconfig(8) will tell you how to use it, but it will not tell you how to compile it and install it. `ifconfig` is part of the base, BTW, so recompiling just that with some different `make` flags and installing it is a complicated process, you have to know what you're doing.


----------



## freezr (Feb 3, 2022)

I see, thank you!

By the way removing the "proc" line from "fstab" produces a weird behavior, for instance if I click Lagrange as pinned app on the dock (docklike) it shows up another icon with a generic gear from where you can manage the application; if "proc" is restored than the dock works as expected.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 3, 2022)

6502 said:


> To be vital FreeBSD needs as much users as possible


FreeBSD is already vital. Going out of scope as to who the target audience is takes your eye off that target. Losing focus is never a good thing.


----------



## 6502 (Feb 3, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> FreeBSD is already vital. Going out of scope as to who the target audience is takes your eye off that target. Losing focus is never a good thing.


It is vital now, but not guaranteed after 5-10 years. I don't like to see news like Company X moved from FreeBSD to Linux but it happens.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 3, 2022)

6502 said:


> It is vital now, but not guaranteed after 5-10 years.



Oh don't start up with the old "FreeBSD is dying" myth I've been hearing for the 18 years I've been using it. In those same 18 years Netflix and WhatsApp started using FreeBSD. Those two alone make up 50% of all internet traffic. Not bad for a dying OS, eh?




6502 said:


> I don't like to see news like Company X moved from FreeBSD to Linux but it happens.



And there are companies that have moved from Linux to FreeBSD.


----------



## 6502 (Feb 3, 2022)

I don't say it is dying. I say that more users is better than less users.


----------



## astyle (Feb 3, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> And there are companies that have moved from Linux to FreeBSD.


Links, please, preferably fresh ones.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 3, 2022)

astyle said:


> Links, please, preferably fresh ones.


Some of these mention migrations to FreeBSD from a number of systems (Solaris, Linux, Windows):

https://www.ixsystems.com/case-studies/


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 3, 2022)

astyle said:


> Links, please, preferably fresh ones.


These pop up all the time in my web traversals. From 10 days ago. I could find more.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 3, 2022)

6502 said:


> I don't say it is dying. I say that more users is better than less users.



More quality users is better than users for the sake of adding bodies to the total count


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 4, 2022)

Common sense:



6502 said:


> more users is better than less users.



More common sense: 



> … The team is always coming up with new ways to connect community members, helping to bring new people to the Project, …



Simply: *new people*. Without prejudice. 

More common sense:



> … We watch market trends, stay on top of discussions happening in various mailing lists and irc channels, and listen to you, the users, by surveying the community over social media and on mailing lists. We also meet with various commercial users to understand how they are using FreeBSD and what challenges they may face. …



– Deb Goodkin​


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 4, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Common sense:


Nah. Face validity at best. For example, more users hasn't helped Windows, macOS or Android be clean, well engineered operating systems has it?


----------



## 6502 (Feb 4, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> More quality users is better than users for the sake of adding bodies to the total count


The army needs soldiers, not only generals and colonels. And hardware manufacturers decide whether to develop driver for specific OS according to marketshare or total number of users. No matter they are quality users or not.


----------



## jammied (Feb 4, 2022)

malavon said:


> Am I the only one thinking of creating a spoof project called SithBSD now?


Do it!


----------



## mer (Feb 4, 2022)

"If you build it, they will come"


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 4, 2022)

6502 said:


> The army needs soldiers, not only generals and colonels.


Yes, soldiers possibly translates to technical power users and developers. People who just want iTunes and desktop environments to play games with, less so.
I don't think a "purely bsd eye candy desktop" will particularly attract those technical power users and certainly not developers.



6502 said:


> And hardware manufacturers decide whether to develop driver for specific OS according to marketshare or total number of users. No matter they are quality users or not.


I don't disagree with you here. Though weirdly, I think Linux 100% dominates in the web server space and yet many of the drivers they are using for this role on these typical semi-commodity servers are rarely written by the companies. Vast majority is reverse engineered and subsequently open-sourced. Linux was originally *the* way to get off the treadmill of dealing with companies and vendors. Seems strange that the new generation is trying to jump in bed with them again.

So I think monetization potential is what attracts companies more. Not necessarily market share or total number of users. Yes it does imply user-count but if all i.e FreeBSD users are not the sort to buy a new gaming PC every month, I don't think companies will bother either way.


----------



## Jose (Feb 4, 2022)

6502 said:


> The army needs soldiers, not only generals and colonels.


Freebsd is building an army? This is news to me.

The fact that more bodies does not equal better software, and that actually more bodies usually slows software projects down has been known since the '70s.








						The Mythical Man-Month - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## zirias@ (Feb 4, 2022)

Jose said:


> has been known since the '70s.


Try to tell this to "management"


----------



## Jose (Feb 4, 2022)

Zirias said:


> Try to tell this to "management"


Story of my career. Turns out they don't like to hear it.

Could be 'cause one tactic for getting rid of a particularly harmful engineer is to "promote" him to management. I haven't seen that happen in a while, though. I wonder if it's still a thing.


----------



## cynwulf (Feb 4, 2022)

This is yet another "Why is FreeBSD not (more) like ...." thread.

Waste of 0s and 1s.


----------



## astyle (Feb 4, 2022)

Jose said:


> Story of my career. Turns out they don't like to hear it.
> 
> Could be 'cause one tactic for getting rid of a particularly harmful engineer is to "promote" him to management. I haven't seen that happen in a while, though. I wonder if it's still a thing.



At my workplace, I haven't had to deal with 'harmful engineers'... A few have been "promoted" to management.  But the way I look at it is this: their brains had to switch gears. Instead of playing with statistical modeling and designing experiments for collecting the data that drives the decision making, they have to start making very different kinds of decisions - like reminding people of company policy of making Zoom an option for meetings, or approving the purchase of a new server.


----------



## zirias@ (Feb 4, 2022)

Jose said:


> Story of my career. Turns out they don't like to hear it.


We had an "experiment" lately. Add people to a project behind schedule. Of course, because management was aware of the inherent problems with that idea, they had a "brilliant" _other_ idea: Avoid any contact. Don't "onboard" the new people, just give them separate tasks to work on.

Amazingly, it went well. Of course, that's only because there was close to zero "domain logic" involved. Which is a very special case. Guess what management doesn't want to hear....

I really expect them to consider this a blueprint, can't wait to see the fallout 

(edit: yes, dilbert is _on-spot_ with these things...)


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 4, 2022)

astyle said:


> At my workplace, I haven't had to deal with 'harmful engineers'... A few have been "promoted" to management.


I would take even a harmful engineer promoted to management any day over a non-technical user / business guy being promoted. At least the harmful engineer has *some" knowledge. Granted they will probably be pushing for the very latest version of everything, driving everyone to the cloud and forcing standardization on Microsoft Visual Studio Public Beta XD.


----------



## 6502 (Feb 4, 2022)

Jose said:


> Freebsd is building an army? This is news to me.


Follow the discussion and will understand the comparison with army.


----------



## Alexander88207 (Feb 4, 2022)

> I genuinely think freebsd would be more popular with a purely bsd eye-candy desktop environment



Archlinux, Gentoo... dont offer an desktop environment too by default but they are still popular.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 5, 2022)

From The FreeBSD's Developer Handbook

*1.3. Architectural Guidelines*

Our ideology can be described by the following guidelines

• Do not add new functionality unless an implementor cannot complete a real application without it.

• It is as important to decide what a system is not as to decide what it is. Do not serve all the world's needs; rather,
make the system extensible so that additional needs can be met in an upwardly compatible fashion.

• The only thing worse than generalizing from one example is generalizing from no examples at all.

• If a problem is not completely understood, it is probably best to provide no solution at all.

• If you can get 90 percent of the desired effect for 10 percent of the work, use the simpler solution.

• Isolate complexity as much as possible.

• Provide mechanism, rather than policy. In particular, place user interface policy in the client's hands.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 5, 2022)

nap said:


> ...it can be an option for all of those who just want an out of the box experience. No tweaks or headaches. Plain simple eye candy and responsive UI with all the standard features.



What a soft, fluffy pink cloud you must have envisioned for them...

But you're new to FreeBSD too, aren't you. Possibly still in a period of Grace, experiencing enthused euphoria, not having encountered problems you've yet to acquire the skills to solve. Aspirin won't fix that headache. 

That's going to take skills that only come from experience in problem solving, and since you don't have them are probably going to have to ask someone who does.



nap said:


> Anyway in the end it's just a vague idea but fun to try.


Someone will answer them for fun.

The only thing I learned from the 7 years I spent as a beta tester for PC-BSD I didn't teach myself was to not ask questions.

I had taught myself to use ports but had never installed a desktop from scratch til I used somebody's tutorial here. The thing that took me longest and last to figure out how to edit my/etc/alias file. About another 3 years, 10 tears after I started using PC-BSD.

Books not how I learned to use computers, the Handbook not something I read before coming here and not often after. One question all I've asked here.

Are they all going to be Wonderkind?

Or having been spoiled from the start by someone doing everything for them (The crux of your argument in their defense), become frustrated, find a way to blame it in FreeBSD and go scurrying back down the Evolutionary Tree in failure?

Will you feel guilty? Will I throw rocks at them? Will FreeBSD start holding peoples hands? Will I throw rocks at them?


----------



## Friend Of Jolly Devil (Feb 5, 2022)

astyle said:


> If Linux is Spam that you can eat straight out of the can, then FreeBSD is a nice cut of raw Kobe beef that still needs some cooking before it can be served.



There's a better analogy. FreeBSD is like an apple (fruit, not company), you can eat it raw (without desktop), or you can prepare your own apple pie. Of course you need a recipe (documentation) and some skills to do that, so some users prefer pies already made. But pies come with some disadvantage: while you can make an apple pie out of an apple, you can't make an apple out of an apple pie.


----------



## astyle (Feb 6, 2022)

Friend Of Jolly Devil said:


> There's a better analogy. FreeBSD is like an apple (fruit, not company), you can eat it raw (without desktop), or you can prepare your own apple pie. Of course you need a recipe (documentation) and some skills to do that, so some users prefer pies already made. But pies come with some disadvantage: while you can make an apple pie out of an apple, you can't make an apple out of an apple pie.


Premade pies are easier to deal with (Just stuff one into the oven and bake it, no big mess to clean up), but if you want less sugar/salt, or a different kind of apple in your pie (Pink Lady as opposed to Granny Smith), you're stuck.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 6, 2022)

Which is better? Pre-made pies or lovingly watched over and cared for, built from scratch using the finest ingredients?


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 6, 2022)

astyle said:


> … you're stuck.



If I was _surprised_ to learn that the west coast is a stranger to Marmite, I'm in utter _despair_ at learning of the absence of custard.

I mean, smother it, man, *smother* that tasteless pie with life-enhancing custard until it disappears beneath the surface – _blup_ – and goes down for the third time.

You're welcome 



Friend Of Jolly Devil said:


> … while you can make an apple pie out of an apple, you can't make an apple out of an apple pie.



Stop it. I mean, don't encourage me to make FreeBSD then FreeBSD + KDE Plasma from GhostBSD. Stop. Stop it. Stop encouraging me. Oh, alright, I'll try. Should I succeed, I'll demand to be rewarded with a swimming pool filled with custard. In Hawaii.

     …


----------



## astyle (Feb 6, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> I'm in utter _despair_ at learning of the absence of custard


OK, Custard is actually a known food around where I live (and in Hawaii, as well). Good quality stuff still comes from European shops.


----------



## Jose (Feb 6, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> From The FreeBSD's Developer Handbook
> *...*
> 
> • Do not add new functionality unless an implementor cannot complete a real application without it.
> ...


Methinks that "cannot" should be a "can". Thanks for bringing this up, though.


----------



## Jose (Feb 6, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> I would take even a harmful engineer promoted to management any day over a non-technical user / business guy being promoted. At least the harmful engineer has *some" knowledge. Granted they will probably be pushing for the very latest version of everything, driving everyone to the cloud and forcing standardization on Microsoft Visual Studio Public Beta XD.


A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and your examples prove it.

Of the two best bosses I've ever had, one was among the most technical, and the other was among the least.

Least-technical good boss didn't blink when I asked for $9,000 in hardware and software to set up a BSDI firewall. He went to the mat with his bosses for my hare brained scheme.

He didn't fire me when I brought down the Vax cluster with my sorcerer's apprentice antics.

Also didn't fire me when I blew up at him because I had too many irons in the fire and the deadlines were stressing me out. He quietly reassigned some of my projects and knew which ones were my least favourite without me telling him.

Recognized shortcomings and gaps in me I didn't see, and made room in the budget to get me training on the company's dime.

By contrast, I've had highly-technical bosses that went along with the BS coming down the corporate hierarchy because they were looking out for number one. They knew that toeing the company line meant bonuses and career advancement. They left us poor sods "in the trenches" holding the bag for the disasters that inevitably ensued.

I hate army metaphors because in a way they're honest. In sick corporate environments the people who actually do the work are seen as cannon fodder, replaceable and expendable in the fight up the corporate ladder.


----------



## Friend Of Jolly Devil (Feb 6, 2022)

astyle said:


> Premade pies are easier to deal with (Just stuff one into the oven and bake it, no big mess to clean up), but if you want less sugar/salt, or a different kind of apple in your pie (Pink Lady as opposed to Granny Smith), you're stuck.



Pre-made pies usually contain Sy***mD gluten, and some are gluten intolerant. And with FreeBSD you can have an apple and eat a pie, too!
BTW, idea for a picture: Eve giving FreeBSD's logo* to Adam saying "It's a sin not to use it!" 

* Contrary to popular belief, in original it wasn't actually an apple. Bible says only about "fruit", and it can be used in different contexts, like "frutti di mare". From a logical perspective, it was actually fruit of a murder - meat. When Adam & Eve ate it, they've realized that they are mortal and can be killed too, and tried to hide.


----------



## astyle (Feb 6, 2022)

Jose said:


> By contrast, I've had highly-technical bosses that went along with the BS coming down the corporate hierarchy because they were looking out for number one. They knew that toeing the company line meant bonuses and career advancement. They left us poor sods "in the trenches" holding the bag for the disasters that inevitably ensued.


A highly technical boss can usually code and design his way around the BS from upstairs. Then it becomes too complicated to figure out where anything went wrong, so people upstairs finally decide that their idea is probably not worth the effort it requires. 


Friend Of Jolly Devil said:


> Pre-made pies usually contain Sy***mD gluten, and some are gluten intolerant.


You can always shop around for a GF variant, and give your money to the store that has it in stock.


----------



## Friend Of Jolly Devil (Feb 6, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Stop it. I mean, don't encourage me to make FreeBSD then FreeBSD + KDE Plasma from GhostBSD. Stop. Stop it. Stop encouraging me. Oh, alright, I'll try. Should I succeed, I'll demand to be rewarded with a swimming pool filled with custard. In Hawaii.



No problem, just a few formalities first, like proving GhostBSD is an apple pie


----------



## Friend Of Jolly Devil (Feb 6, 2022)

astyle said:


> You can always shop around for a GF variant, and give your money to the store that has it in stock.



With aggressive gluten apple-pie makers it's very unlikely to find any, not to mention a good one. And it's much faster (and healthier) to make your own.


----------



## astyle (Feb 6, 2022)

Friend Of Jolly Devil said:


> With aggressive gluten apple-pie makers it's very unlikely to find any, not to mention a good one. And it's much faster (and healthier) to make your own.











						Personal Size Apple Pie
					

Katz Gluten Free is proud to present our delicious, mouthwatering, homemade, gluten-free apple pies! We fill our flaky crust with crisp apples and fragrant cinnamon, creating a pie that tastes like Mama used to make. No one will ever guess the pies are gluten and dairy free.




					katzglutenfree.com
				



How's this? It's amazing what you can find on the Internet these days


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 7, 2022)

This gluten thing has gotten out of hand. Out of nowhere, it seems, every third person doesn't want gluten because....because...uh....er...

Yes, I understand there are people with real problems with gluten but, I owned several restaurants, and it really did seem like every third person was concerned about gluten while ordering food in a sandwich shop.


----------



## astyle (Feb 7, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> This gluten thing has gotten out of hand. Out of nowhere, it seems, every third person doesn't want gluten because....because...uh....er...
> 
> Yes, I understand there are people with problems with gluten but, I owned several restaurants, I it really did seem like every third person was concerned about gluten while ordering food in a sandwich shop.


FWIW, I'm OK with either variant, both GF and not. If you have the skill, you can make even tofu tasty. But hey, on the Internet, even a civil conversation can get out of hand just because literally EVERYBODY wants to leave their mark on the conversation. Kind of reminds me of my childhood times at extended family gatherings - after a 5-hour eating session at the table, everybody's about to leave, putting on coats - but the conversation is never over, so nobody really leaves. I once fell asleep on a pile of shoes waiting for the conversation to be over.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 7, 2022)

Also see all the concerns about MSG.


----------



## Friend Of Jolly Devil (Feb 7, 2022)

astyle said:


> Personal Size Apple Pie
> 
> 
> Katz Gluten Free is proud to present our delicious, mouthwatering, homemade, gluten-free apple pies! We fill our flaky crust with crisp apples and fragrant cinnamon, creating a pie that tastes like Mama used to make. No one will ever guess the pies are gluten and dairy free.
> ...



I can only watch at it, can't order it  And what if you don't like its taste?



drhowarddrfine said:


> This gluten thing has gotten out of hand. Out of nowhere, it seems, every third person doesn't want gluten because....because...uh....er...
> 
> Yes, I understand there are people with real problems with gluten but, I owned several restaurants, and it really did seem like every third person was concerned about gluten while ordering food in a sandwich shop.



I think it's actually a good thing. Bigger market, lower prices of gluten-free products  And it's easy to miss you're intolerant, you feel a big difference only when you stop eat it.


----------



## astyle (Feb 7, 2022)

Friend Of Jolly Devil said:


> I can only watch at it, can't order it  And what if you don't like its taste?


That's why I said that you can shop around. That was a top hit returned to me by Google in less than 30 seconds.


----------



## Friend Of Jolly Devil (Feb 7, 2022)

astyle said:


> That's why I said that you can shop around. That was a top hit returned to me by Google in less than 30 seconds.



I can't shop on the internet, I don't have a bank account. But that's not the point. The point is, if you want an eye-candy desktop environment, sooner or later Lennart will appear, and instead of Berkeley Software Distribution you will have Lennart S**tware Distribution.

I think FreeBSD just needs better desktop documentation.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 7, 2022)

Friend Of Jolly Devil said:


> I think FreeBSD just needs better desktop documentation.


FreeBSD doesn't make desktops. Neither does Linux. Linus Torvalds won't help you there.
Ubuntu makes desktop systems; as do others. That's where you'll find better desktop documentation cause that's what they do.


----------



## tingo (Feb 7, 2022)

I think FreeBSD needs better users (not the ones who are already happily using FreeBSD). Aspire to be a better FreeBSD user! Read as much documentation as you can, and experiment all you have time for with FreeBSD.


----------



## Friend Of Jolly Devil (Feb 7, 2022)

It doesn't. But it patches them and offers to install them through pkg or ports collection. I'm not saying FreeBSD developers must make better documentation, just FreeBSD desktop needs better documentation.


----------



## astyle (Feb 7, 2022)

tingo said:


> I think FreeBSD needs better users (not the ones who are already happily using FreeBSD). Aspire to be a better FreeBSD user! Read as much documentation as you can, and experiment all you have time for with FreeBSD.


How do you come up with better users? (Aside from actually stepping  away from the keyboard to make 'em)


----------



## mfjurbala (Feb 8, 2022)

CoolHwhipMike I feel another poll coming on …     It's a fine line between asking an honest question and being a bit of a troll but ill see what I can come up with.


----------

