# FreeBSD 10 - worst release ever?



## Dies_Irae (Feb 5, 2014)

Hi all,

a few days ago I decided to upgrade my home PC from 9.2-STABLE to 10-STABLE.

I don't have much time these days, and I've never used the new clang-based version of FreeBSD, so the upgrade process is very slow. However, thanks to zfs(8) and the beautiful sysutils/beadm tool, I can switch in any moment between my 9.2-STABLE fully-working setup and the 10-STABLE shapeless-pre-pre-pre-alpha one. It's amazing.  :beergrin 

I use a custom kernel configuration, but it's the same in 9.2-STABLE and 10-STABLE, and I've only disabled some unused devices. The new beast (10-STABLE) is working fine, every device work flawlessly, I just {have|want} to recompile all my installed ports, and this is obviously the most time-consuming task. Some ports fails to build, maybe it's a clang-vs-gcc  issue, but I can't call this a problem since I simply have not yet had time to investigate. But one thing caught my attention: I've had the feeling that the system's boot is slower than the 9.2-STABLE one. I don't really care about how many seconds my system takes to boot, but the difference is noticeable.

I'm pretty sure the problem is due to the fact that it's a "work in progress", but just for curiosity, I've searched a bit and I have found this article, which is very very critical toward the last release of FreeBSD. Since I'm still upgrading, I have no way to verify the statements on that article, but the criticisms are so heavy that, if they are true, I think I should have seen some feedback here in the forums.

Anyone able to confirm or refute these statements?

In the meantime, I will continue the upgrade process, regardless of the criticisms...  §e


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## SirDice (Feb 5, 2014)

The site you're referring to is a known troll, so don't put too much weight into it. That said, sure, some things aren't quite finished yet. That usually happens with a .0 release. The release was cut using a fairly stable base, most bugs have been fixed but it still needs a lot of testing. Those .0 releases are for testing by the general population, you can only test so much in a development environment. That's one of the reasons why support for a .0 release ends as soon as a .1 comes out.


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## tzoi516 (Feb 5, 2014)

Every OS ... scratch that ... every piece of software written doesn't have the user base to knock out any bugs, whether it's an OS or app. I think FreeBSD 10.0-RELEASE has a decent start so far.


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## Dies_Irae (Feb 5, 2014)

SirDice said:
			
		

> The site you're referring to is a known troll


It was the first thing I thought of, but the article seemed slightly more technical than the average troll post, so I decided to ask here for confirmation.


			
				SirDice said:
			
		

> don't put too much weight into it


No way.


			
				SirDice said:
			
		

> some things aren't quite finished yet. That usually happens with a .0 release. The release was cut using a fairly stable base, most bugs have been fixed but it still needs a lot of testing.


And there's nothing wrong with that.

Thank you very much, @SirDice. Quick and clear as always.


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## kpa (Feb 5, 2014)

It works for me and does what I expect it to do. So... the site you linked must have wrong information  P


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## Crivens (Feb 5, 2014)

Dies_Irae said:
			
		

> SirDice said:
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Trollness is confirmed here - this is a somewhat more skilled troll. But still a troll.


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## JWJones (Feb 5, 2014)

Wow, they sure have a bone to pick with the BSDs at that website. What's up with that? There's some serious conspiracy theory level stuff, there. Backdoors, PC-BSD is Apple funded to draw people away from Linux, etc. Tin foil hat, much?


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## kpa (Feb 5, 2014)

JWJones said:
			
		

> Wow, they sure have a bone to pick with the BSDs at that website. What's up with that? There's some serious conspiracy theory level stuff, there. Backdoors, PC-BSD is Apple funded to draw people away from Linux, etc. Tin foil hat, much?



BSD is not free in the way those people would like it to be. The BSD license allows the evil companies to "steal" BSD licensed software and make big bucks out of it without any obligation to contribute back to the open source world. That is what drives certain people mad because they are powerless in the matter and can only resort to trash talk.


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## Carpetsmoker (Feb 5, 2014)

The new pkg tools are certainly very un-UNIX-y. Not that ths is a bad thing *as such*, but I don't like it. For example, if I do a *pkg install gmake* (no dependencies), why does it a) need to ask for confirmation? b) Spew 15 lines of unrequested & unwanted output?
I'd also prefer to have pkg{-,_}[tool], instead of one master command which does all; it's always such a pain to deal with these sort of programs...

Also, apparently, they're not even a part of the base system. I first had to install them on my FreeBSD 10 machine ... ? meh.


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## vermaden (Feb 5, 2014)

Dies_Irae said:
			
		

> Anyone able to confirm or refute these statements?



I did not measured boot speed as I have GELI full disk encryption and have to enter password at every boot.

but I can tell quite the opposite, I have tried to use 9.2-STABLE on ThinkPad W530 and it failed to boot, hanged at boot.

FreeBSD 10.0-RELEASE boots without any poblems, latest 3G card is fully supported with config from 9.2-STABLE, wifi works, card reader works (even automounts with sysutils/automount), cpu scaling works, nvidia graphics/intel graphics works (no test console after x11 on Intel as newcons commits are missed in the RELEASE).

Generally, very good fealing about 10.0-RELEASE, probably the best release ever, and probably the best FreeBSD 'dot zero' release ever.


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## Pushrod (Feb 5, 2014)

Crivens said:
			
		

> Trollness is confirmed here - this is a somewhat more skilled troll. But still a troll.



How skilled are we talking? The author used "then" instead of "than" about a zillion times.


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## ondra_knezour (Feb 6, 2014)

He knows some cool words like hypervisor and kernel, such way skilled  I would not make general assumptions about person's skills based only on the written expression, english may not be his native language. I am also still making many common mistakes, especially when tired after long day, because english is fourth language I had to learn and given fifth german, you easily get unable to introduce yourself when evening arrives 

To not be so much out of topic - every time somebody links this blog, I have to wonder what the heck force him to waste his precious time with looking over forums, trying to install and use BSD again and again and torture himself with such ugly system.


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## hitest (Feb 6, 2014)

I had a good laugh reading the review about FreeBSD 10.0.  The author does not even pretend to be objective.  The Wordpress blog is worth reading for the entertainment value.  Very much a troll. 



> With the kernel fully booted and the slow and obsolete BSD init finally activating all required services, we started the installation and ran into the next big change





> BSD developers are trying to force users away from FOSS respecting GPU manufacturers like Intel and AMD and instead make them use drivers from proprietary terrorists like NVidia.


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## protocelt (Feb 6, 2014)

I've only been using FreeBSD since 8.2-RELEASE, however IMHO, this latest release has been outstanding in so many different ways!

I don't understand how a person could hate an Operating System so much. None the less, don't hate on the troll too much. He provides a healthy dose of entertainment value. I look forward to following every link I see referring to his blog. Cheers to you troll, keep fighting the good fight!  :beergrin


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## throAU (Feb 6, 2014)

"Worst" release ever would be 5.0.


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## nakal (Feb 6, 2014)

5.0 was OK... it was 5.3 which made me stay away from FreeBSD until 7.0 was released.

I cannot understand that people justify bad software releases by being ".0" releases. On the one hand, it's not true (at least for good software projects). On the other hand, there are software companies that entirely skip the version ".0" and even "1.x" to give their own software more credibility. Come on.. people...


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## worldi (Feb 6, 2014)

nakal said:
			
		

> there are software companies that entirely skip the version ".0" and even "1.x" to give their own software more credibility.



Some even skipped 1.x, 2.x, 3.x and 4.1. This practice is called "version number abSUSE".   :e


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## nanotek (Feb 6, 2014)

Thanks for the link. I had a good laugh.

I think this release might have been made in haste, but I anticipate good things with PKGNG. Not too sure about clang, I think it might have been an emotional/philosophical decision and not an objective one, but it's still early days. I think the upgrade itself has been the source of more disappointment than the actual release: the machine I installed 10.0-RELEASE to has not brought with it so much frustration as the machines I upgraded.


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## Dies_Irae (Feb 6, 2014)

Pushrod said:
			
		

> How skilled are we talking?


Well, at least he has strived to find some technical term. The vast majority of the anti-BSD trolls just says something like "*BSD sucks because not only I must use the keyboard to install it, but I also need a brain to use it!"
We can at least appreciate the effort  :e



			
				vermaden said:
			
		

> Generally, very good fealing about 10.0-RELEASE, probably the best release ever, and probably the best FreeBSD 'dot zero' release ever.


Thanks, this confirm that my slow boot (non-)problem it's probably (as I had already assumed) attributable to something misconfigured or not-yet-configured.


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## vermaden (Feb 6, 2014)

Dies_Irae said:
			
		

> vermaden said:
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Maybe it boots slow, I just did not measured that since FreeBSD 8.x when I did NOT had full disk encryption with GELI, so its safe to NOT rely on my experiences if it comes to boot times


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## SirDice (Feb 6, 2014)

My home server was upgraded from 9-STABLE to 10-STABLE. It doesn't boot slower or faster. If you're going to play around with 10 I would advise to use 10-STABLE. Everything that didn't make it into 10.0 will slowly be added to 10-STABLE so you don't have to wait for 10.1.


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## drhowarddrfine (Feb 6, 2014)

iirc, that troll is a former FreeBSD developer who's thoughts on how FreeBSD should be developed were frequently brushed off as being too far "out there" so he now pouts in the corner of his parent's basement and occasionally lashes out cause that's what you can do on the internet.


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## zspider (Feb 6, 2014)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> iirc, that troll is a former FreeBSD developer who's thoughts on how FreeBSD should be developed were frequently brushed off as being too far "out there" so he now pouts in the corner of his parent's basement and occasionally lashes out cause that's what you can do on the internet.



He also had an unfortunate accident involving a tree and a beehive, he's been scarred for life.


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## Carpetsmoker (Feb 6, 2014)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> iirc, that troll is a former FreeBSD developer who's thoughts on how FreeBSD should be developed were frequently brushed off as being too far "out there" so he now pouts in the corner of his parent's basement and occasionally lashes out cause that's what you can do on the internet.



Do you also know who it is?

Yesterday, at another (non-tech) forum, someone curious about BSD stumbled on that pile of vomit website, and more or less took it serious, which is pretty understandable ...


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## sulman (Feb 7, 2014)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> iirc, that troll is a former FreeBSD developer who's thoughts on how FreeBSD should be developed were frequently brushed off as being too far "out there" so he now pouts in the corner of his parent's basement and occasionally lashes out cause that's what you can do on the internet.



I'm not surprised. They've clearly got a grudge, and they post at Phoronix quite a lot, too. 

I'm pretty pleased with 10. I'm running it on my work desktop (I replaced Arch Linux for no reason other than I am working with more FreeBSD servers and quite like the structure, plus I've lost a few hours when Arch occasionally do one of their infamous major changes) and I have no complaints. 

I do have a comment about boot times. FreeBSD's current init system will never compete with the likes of Systemd on speed, nor should it. The obsession with boot time is weird and a bit of a fool's errand, in my opinion. As long as it's say less than a minute there's no real problem. If you're a mobile user you're probably using suspend/resume anyway (I don't remember the last time I bothered to actually reboot my Macbook. Usually when the battery is flat.)  

I'm pleased about clang, if only because BSD is going its own way, and it needs to do that, and while I'm not a software engineer clang seems to show a lot of promise. 

I'd like better multilib gpu support (the ability to properly use Wine with a non-Nvidia card on an amd64 platform would be nice, but not essential) but I can't think of anything that really bugs me.


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## kpedersen (Feb 7, 2014)

Yeah there is some twerp on Phoronix (not going to mention names because frankly he will probably get off on it).
If you look on his profile, every single post they make is a snide comment against *BSD.

For example, there was a thread on some sort of memory protection that Linux was apparently doing wrong and so all that fool added to the debate was "yeah, but it is still more secure than OpenBSD". So obviously, he knew that OpenBSD's main goal was to be secure so he just decided to randomly attack that flavour of BSD because it happened to be the most topical.

To be honest, I doubt the twot that made that website was anywhere near being a FreeBSD developer. I think he is just one of the "next generation" of young, over excitable youths to access the internet.
I can only hope that my generation were not nearly as ignorant or childish when we came of age .

Edit: This is kind of worrying but the future of UNIX relies on these kids to maintain it after we have gone haha


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## kpa (Feb 7, 2014)

Most likely the guy volunteered to work on FreeBSD as a developer and got in for a trial but his mentor told him he does not cut it and should go, most likely because of bad attitude.


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## scottro (Feb 7, 2014)

Its very vehemence makes it suspect.  Whenever one sees a "FreeBSD is awful," or indeed, anything tearing down an operating system, the technical reasons given are often questionable.  In the old days, I remember seeing a long thread (usenet, I think), about mutt and pine and someone saying words to the effect that people pull out all sorts of technical reasons to justify what is, in the end, an emotional decision.  

Actually, this kind of includes attacks against this person.  They have their somewhat poorly expressed, in my opinion, ideas.  While this is the Internet, where one only needs to state an opinion, my experience has been different than theirs.  Is FreeBSD slower to boot than Linux---yeah, and maybe this is due to systemd. so good luck when something breaks on startup and systemd makes it more difficult to figure out what it is.  

Hardware support not as good as Linux?  So, how does Linux compare with Windows?  Does your doctor, dentist, lawyer, or accountant use Linux?  No?  Ok, so, by your criterion, after all these years Linux can't produce software for them?  Etc.  

I'd say, let 'em troll. If your friends pull up the article as a reference, ask them have they personally tried an Intel wireless card on FreeBSD, for example.  The slower boot is true, but many sysadmin types loathe systemd and think that RedHat becomes more like Windows with each iteration, such as when RHEL6 crippled their text mode installer. 

Clang is bad?  Didn't Mr. Stallman express worry about its licensing as its performance was pretty good compared to gcc?  (This is the Internet, so I'm not bothering with references, there was a slashdot headline that implied that, so, by this person's standards, that should be enough.

At any rate, if one looks at that article, it seems as if every point can be refuted.  While English may not be their first language, and, married to a non-native speaker, I certainly understand, (and, when in a hurry, do the same thing), as soon as I see it's instead of its, I (and this is probably because I'm old) mentally subtract validity from the argument. 


> One of the worst problem with Bhyve is that you have to set it up BSD style (manual edit config files and reboot) which everyone knows is time consuming, tedious and prone to errors. We demonstrated this by doing an example.



I know many seasoned Linux admins who would vehemently disagree with their statement about text files.  Sure, let's have a GUI interface that when it breaks, will be almost impossible to diagnose.  

And so on.  

I shouldn't even post in this thread, but I'm procrastinating before doing exercise.  Anyway, 

TLR

The arguments made are often merely opinion, and if one's friends read it and believe it, suggest they try for themselves.  
Our ad hominem attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) are a bad thing, IMVHO, as such attacks can often indicate that we can't provide good counter arguments, so we'll just attack the person instead, and might make the casual googler more likely to believe the article makes valid points.  Speculation on who they are is a waste of time. They seem to have great dislike for FreeBSD for whatever reason, therefore, their arguments must be taken with a grain of salt.


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## fernandel (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't know if is the worst because I don't have so much experience with FreeBSD but from version 7 when I became FreeBSD user I never had so many problems with building ports as I have now on version 10.0.


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## hitest (Feb 10, 2014)

fernandel said:
			
		

> I don't know if is the worst because I don't have so much experience with FreeBSD but from version 7 when I became FreeBSD user I never had so many problems with building ports as I have now on version 10.0.



I have used FreeBSD since 5.x.  I've never really been a fan of building from ports partly because my PCs lack the horse power to compile speedily and also like you I've experienced problems compiling applications.  I really like the new PKGng package manager.  First rate!  :beergrin


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## dburkland (Feb 10, 2014)

I upgraded my virtualized FreeBSD 9.1 file server to 10 last weekend and so far so good. The only issue I ran into revolves around Samba which I submitted a problem report for yesterday.


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## cenu (Feb 19, 2014)

kpa said:
			
		

> JWJones said:
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Yeah, and it permits the authors, modifiers, and distributors not to publish the code if they so choose, while still having it under the BSD license.
But to my knowledge, none of the BSD projects really care that their code is being used for the production of proprietary software (after all, they ARE using the BSD license). And in a lot of cases, they actually seem proud of that.


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## kpa (Feb 19, 2014)

cenu said:
			
		

> kpa said:
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Most of the code released under the BSD license is of sort that is not usable in isolation or can be easily turned into a product that you could sell. A good example is the BSD networking code that was ported to MS Windows, it is a building block for something bigger but does nothing alone.

What I wrote above about "evil companies" was in rather sarcastic tone if it's not obvious to everyone.


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## tankist02 (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't take this guy seriously at all. I consider him to be in the realm of grotesque parody, sort of Top Secret, Police Squad!, Hot Shots for IT. As such reading his site is quite funny.


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## Crivens (Feb 20, 2014)

tankist02 said:
			
		

> I don't take this guy seriously at all. I consider him to be in the realm of grotesque parody, sort of Top Secret, Police Squad!, Hot Shots for IT. As such reading his site is quite funny.


Would be really funny if it turns out this is Kirk McKusick on a trolling spree. You never know.


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## Carpetsmoker (Feb 20, 2014)

_"If you spend a great deal of your time pretending to be an asshole to get a reaction from people...you aren't pretending. You are an asshole."_
—Ed Brayton

I think we should all heed the usual advice of "Don't feed the troll". It's not at all unlikely that this person is reading this thread, and is therefore being "fed".
Certainly don't respond/argue in the comment box on his weblog.


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## ikreos (Feb 20, 2014)

Works fine for me. I went from 8.2 to 10.0. I did a fresh install twice. Once to gauge installation size, and another for the final layout. Rebuilt all of my ports, built a custom kernel and I was good to go. I haven't noticed any difference in boot speed. Plus clang compiles much faster than gcc. If the information doesn't come from FreeBSD itself or the forums, take it with a big grain of salt.


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## Amishacker (Feb 27, 2014)

belated ¢2: I track stable, but I like the direction 10 is pushing the platform so a lump or two on release is shrugworthy.
  While I did not enjoy the transitions pkgng & clang have treated me well. Rah team, all that rot.

Also, hi all.


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