# Swift 5.5 for FreeBSD.



## majortom (Sep 28, 2021)

When Apple first open sourced Swift, someone ported it to FreeBSD. Then,…. Crickets.

In the meantime, Swift has been ported to Windows, Web Assembly, several additional Linux distributions, has received first class AWS Lambda support, and most recently got an official Amazon AWS SDK. Unfortunately, still nothing on FreeBSD. I have several Server Side Swift applications that I would love to host on my own systems, but without a FreeBSD port, I am stuck adding Linux boxes for them.  It is beyond my ability to do a port, but it would be nice for there to be one. Am I the only person interested in this? There has been a topic on the Swift forum, to add official FreeBSD support, but there has not been much support from the FreeBSD community for it.

Just wondering if there is something, philosophical or otherwise preventing it from happening?


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## SirDice (Sep 28, 2021)

There was a port for it; lang/swift but it expired because nobody wanted to maintain it.


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## majortom (Sep 28, 2021)

SirDice said:


> There was a port for it; lang/swift but it expired because nobody wanted to maintain it.


Yup, I mentioned that. I am just curious if there is some reason that there seems to be no interest (not even enough to add the request on the Swift Forum to encourage Apple to do it themselves as they have done for several Linux distributions and now Windows)?

There has been quite a lot of progress since Swift 2, especially in making the non-Apple platforms first class citizens in the ecosystem. Again, a simple action that would help would be for FreeBSD people who are interested in having a port, go over the the Swift.org forum and add a post to the request for a FreeBSD port.


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## SirDice (Sep 28, 2021)

Ports are a community effort. Ports require a maintainer, somebody willing and able to keep the port in shape and updated. If a port doesn't have a maintainer it will eventually go stale or fail to build. If those build failures happen for long enough without somebody fixing it the port will simply get removed again.


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## majortom (Sep 28, 2021)

SirDice said:


> Ports are a community effort. Ports require a maintainer, somebody willing and able to keep the port in shape and updated. If a port doesn't have a maintainer it will eventually go stale or fail to build. If those build failures happen for long enough without somebody fixing it the port will simply get removed again.


Apple themselves maintain the Ubuntu, Amazon Linux and Windows ports and contribute resources to the Web Assembly version. I understand how ports are maintained by the community here, that is not what I am asking. My question is pretty straight forward: is there some reason there seems to be no interest in Swift from the FreeBSD community? I am not asking why the previous port was removed, or how a new port would be maintained, or even if there are people who could port Swift themselves. If there is interest in using Swift on this platform, I would suggest that people go to the Swift.org forum and add to their request to the list of platforms for Apple to support.

On the other hand, if there is opposition to having Swift on FreeBSD, I would love to understand what it is.


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## jbo (Sep 28, 2021)

TL;DR: Please become the next lang/swift maintainer. The community greatly appreciates your efforts


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## SirDice (Sep 28, 2021)

Judging by the old thread (https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/apples-swift-2-is-now-open-source.54270/) there are plenty of people interested.


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

SirDice said:


> Judging by the old thread (https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/apples-swift-2-is-now-open-source.54270/) there are plenty of people interested.


We have different definitions of "plenty of people". That thread had 6 people, and twenty messages over a month, six years ago. At least two of the people in the thread either out right opposed it, or were dismissive and one other did not talk about Swift at all, but GnuSTEP. The other thread that talks about it, has people advising the person interested in learning to code that he should learn Ada instead of Swift (among other suggestions). I guess that answers the question.

Thanks for your help. I guess Linux it is.

If anyone is actually interested in encouraging Apple to port to FreeBSD, here is one of the recent threads on the Swift forum requesting it: https://forums.swift.org/t/freebsd-and-swift/13727 Adding names there would be a good start.


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

jbodenmann said:


> TL;DR: Please become the next lang/swift maintainer. The community greatly appreciates your efforts


Thanks for your very helpful suggestion.


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## jbo (Sep 29, 2021)

majortom said:


> Thanks for your very helpful suggestion.


I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic. It certainly was an honest response from my side. Every port of the +30k available ports needs to be maintained by somebody or a group of people. Nothing comes for free - these things take effort. Somebody has to do it - why not be that somebody?
The situation is exactly the same with Linux: Somebody or a group of people has to maintain the swift packages for whatever Linux distribution we're referring to.

Responses to this often include something along the lines of "I don't have the time for that" or "I don't have the knowledge for that". Neither of which are a problem. Firstly, this is an opensource effort. Nobody EXPECTS you to deliver. Secondly, this is a great opportunity to learn. I assure you that the information you'll get from doing something like this is very much worth it's while. Something like "I am the maintainer of X" usually also looks good on a CV in general.


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

jbodenmann said:


> I'm not sure whether you're being sarcastic. It certainly was an honest response from my side.


Sorry, in my world an honest response does not start with a statement that one did not bother reading the post to which one was replying.


jbodenmann said:


> Every port of the +30k available ports needs to be maintained by somebody or a group of people. Nothing comes for free - these things take effort.


Yes, every port requires a maintainer. Had you bothered to read either of the posts, you would know that Apple itself supports and maintains the main Linux ports and recently added a Windows port. It is perfectly reasonable for there to be interest in using the Swift compiler, without enough knowledge or interest in being able to port it. You do not even express interest in using the result, just in suggesting that someone else do work.


jbodenmann said:


> Somebody has to do it - why not be that somebody?


For many reasons as I noted in my post, it is beyond my ability.


jbodenmann said:


> The situation is exactly the same with Linux: Somebody or a group of people has to maintain the swift packages for whatever Linux distribution we're referring to.


Again, had you bothered to read the posts, you would know that Apple, a very large company with lots of resources, maintains the Linux and Windows ports. If there was actual interest in this community in having a port (which, given that the only response to this post was two people neither of whom expressed any personal interest in the product but did express an interest in explaining process, it seems clear there is not), Apple would likely maintain this version as well.


jbodenmann said:


> Responses to this often include something along the lines of "I don't have the time for that" or "I don't have the knowledge for that". Neither of which are a problem.


My reason for wanting Swift on FreeBSD is to avoid the time and effort needed to learn Linux as an end user. The response that the best way to do that is learn to be a developer and as a first project, tackle porting a compiler and a set of tools to another platform, seems like a complete mismatch. It is the the equivalent of responding to an inquiry if there is interest in having the City extend a bus line to a neighborhood, with the suggestion that one run one's own transportation service starting with building one's own buses from scratch.


jbodenmann said:


> Firstly, this is an opensource effort. Nobody EXPECTS you to deliver. Secondly, this is a great opportunity to learn. I assure you that the information you'll get from doing something like this is very much worth it's while. Something like "I am the maintainer of X" usually also looks good on a CV in general.


Glad you are looking out for my career future. If I was worried about this from a CV standpoint, learning to use Linux, the dominant OS and Cloud hosting platform, would be way more valuable than being the maintainer of an open source port on FreeBSD.


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## zirias@ (Sep 29, 2021)

Apple won't maintain a FreeBSD port, never. What you _could_ expect from them is to upstream changes necessary for correct building and execution on FreeBSD. But this would require someone to do these changes first (and, well, creating a port), a few people begging on some forum definitely won't do.

So yes, this is just about the fact that you want to have a port. DIY is the only sane answer to it. As long as there's nobody wanting it and "just doing it", it won't happen. And indeed, it's perfectly possible to just learn what you need to do it (e.g. the FreeBSD Porter's Handbook is top notch documentation). The only question remaining would be: do you want it enough to invest that time and effort…


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Apple won't maintain a FreeBSD port, never. What you _could_ expect from them is to upstream changes necessary for correct building and execution on FreeBSD. But this would require someone to do these changes first (and, well, creating a port), a few people begging on some forum definitely won't do.
> 
> So yes, this is just about the fact that you want to have a port. DIY is the only sane answer to it. As long as there's nobody wanting it and "just doing it", it won't happen. And indeed, it's perfectly possible to just learn what you need to do it. The only question remaining would be: do you want it enough to invest that time and effort…


I just find it funny, that not one person who has responded to this thread has expressed interest in using Swift on FreeBSD (the actual question being asked), but all have tried to explain why someone else should spend energy on maintaining it.

Even if I could do it, I have seen zero interest in it. Why would I bother doing a port in which no one has expressed any interest.

Glad you know what Apple will or will not do. I should have just asked you first.

You are completely correct that if "only a few people" ask for it, Apple will not care, and since even on this forum there is no expressed interest, it seems likely that the few who have posted on the Swift forum, are the only ones interested.

Thanks again for your help.


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## zirias@ (Sep 29, 2021)

And if hundreds would ask, Apple still wouldn't maintain a "FreeBSD port". That would require them to do/submit commits to FreeBSD's ports tree. Yep, you should have asked me first, glad you're wiser now.



majortom said:


> I just find it funny, that not one person who has responded to this thread has expressed interest in using Swift on FreeBSD, but all have tried to explain why someone else should spend energy on maintaining it.


As for me, I don't think you _should_ anything. Probably nobody here does. I'm also not interested in swift. You're the one interested, you have to know yourself how strong that interest is.


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## eternal_noob (Sep 29, 2021)

Who uses Swift anyway? I mean, there's C/C++. There's no need for obscure language compilers in FreeBSD.


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## zirias@ (Sep 29, 2021)

eternal_noob said:


> Who uses Swift anyway? I mean, there's C/C++. There's no need for obscure language compilers in FreeBSD.


Well, I guess there's no pressing need to have an implementation of CBM BASIC V2 in the ports either 

It's simple as that, if someone wants to have it and creates a port, there will be a port.


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

eternal_noob said:


> Who uses Swift anyway? I mean, there's C/C++. There's no need for obscure language compilers in FreeBSD.


Apparently more people than FreeBSD, as Amazon has just announced a native AWS Swift SDK, and they do not bother to do native FreeBSD support.  

However, it seems clear that there is no interest from this community. Great that people are super excited about explaining process and their their lack of interest in the product though.


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## Beastie7 (Sep 29, 2021)

majortom said:


> I just find it funny, that not one person who has responded to this thread has expressed interest in using Swift on FreeBSD (the actual question being asked), but all have tried to explain why someone else should spend energy on maintaining it.
> 
> Even if I could do it, I have seen zero interest in it. Why would I bother doing a port in which no one has expressed any interest.
> 
> ...



I don't understand the snide attitude here.

You somehow feel entitled to know what none of us can predict or force. If someone wants to actively finish the port (_and maintain it_), then we'd have a complete port in the tree. If the issue is that significant to you, *you* can contribute to the port or talk to Apple. Complaining on the forums doesn't help anyone.



majortom said:


> Amazon has just announced a native AWS Swift SDK



And Amazon has made that choice to have an upstream port for Linux; the burden is not on the FreeBSD community. I don't understand why people come here on forums with this BS sentiment.


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## zirias@ (Sep 29, 2021)

Beastie7 that's the attitude you often see when people start to realize (unpaid) OSS devs just do what _they_ want/need or what they think is cool. That said, I'm amazed there are e.g still people willing to maintain www/chromium – >1000 patches as of now, because Google actively decided they don't care about BSD platforms upstream. But these people probably think it's pretty cool to have one of the major OSS browsers work on FreeBSD…
(and I just suggested yet another patch to make it build on i386 again, cause I think it's somehow cool to have chromium work on my ages-old EeePC)


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

Beastie7 said:


> I don't understand the snide attitude here.


Really simple. I asked a question if there was interest in Swift on FreeBSD. I did not ask a question about how I could become the maintainer of a port, how ports get done, what I could do to polish my CV. I did not get one person who expressed any interest in Swift on FreeBSD, but I did get lots of other responses, none of which have anything to do with my question.


Beastie7 said:


> You somehow feel entitled to know what none of us can predict or force.


Nope. I did not ask how to force Apple to do a port, nor for anyone to predict anything. I simply asked if there was interest.


Beastie7 said:


> If someone wants to actively finish the port (_and maintain it_), then we'd have a complete port in the tree.


That was not the question I asked. Again, lots of great explanations about the ports process, and none expressing interest in Swift on FreeBSD.


Beastie7 said:


> If the issue is that significant to you, *you* can contribute to the port or talk to Apple. Complaining on the forums doesn't help anyone.


My original post asked a question "Is there interest?", and made some observations about the current state. I did not complain about anything. If you are not interested in Swift on FreeBSD, why do you think it adds value to this thread to respond on topics not asked?


Beastie7 said:


> And Amazon has made that choice to have an upstream port for Linux; the burden is not on the FreeBSD community. I don't understand why people come here on forums with this BS sentiment.


Not once did I ever suggest that anyone in this community should do anything other than express interest or lack there of in using Swift on FreeBSD. Not one single response to my post responded to the question I asked.

Not one.


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## zirias@ (Sep 29, 2021)

And still, no port magically appears cause people claim "interest". And that's leaving aside that just a little fraction of FreeBSD users even use this forum, and even fewer will bother looking at this thread…

If you want to have a port, you just do it. You don't ask around first.


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Beastie7 that's the attitude you often see when people start to realize (unpaid) OSS devs just do what _they_ want/need or what they think is cool.



Again, please show in my most, where I asked anyone on here to do any work, to do a port, to do anything other than answer a simple question as to if there is interest.


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## Beastie7 (Sep 29, 2021)

majortom said:


> Again, please show in my most, where I asked anyone on here to do any work, to do a port, to do anything other than answer a simple question as to if there is interest.



Of course there's interest. But not enough of it for a full port to come to fruition. We need more interest points; you can add more points to the interest bucket. Bugzilla is waiting for you.


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

Zirias said:


> And still, no port magically appears cause people claim "interest".


Did I ask for a port to magically appear? Did I ask anyone here to do a port?


Zirias said:


> And that's leaving aside that just a little fraction of FreeBSD users even use this forum, and even fewer will bother looking at this thread…


If the people most interested in FreeBSD (those who read this forum) and those most interested in Swift (those who read the Swift forum) are not motivated enough to even put in the effort of a simple expression of interest, why would anyone bother to do a port?


Zirias said:


> If you want to have a port, you just do it. You don't ask around first.


I want to use a product, if I am the only one interested in it (which it seems clear is the case), there would be no reason to create it.


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## SirDice (Sep 29, 2021)

WantedPorts - FreeBSD Wiki
		


Swift is already on that list, and has been for a while.


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

Beastie7 said:


> Of course there's interest. But not enough of it for a full port to come to fruition.


Not even enough interest for anyone on here to say they want it.


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## zirias@ (Sep 29, 2021)

majortom said:


> If the people most interested in FreeBSD (those who read this forum)


Already wrong assumption.

Interest: https://wiki.freebsd.org/WantedPorts#Q-T

Just as an example: MakeMKV was on this list as well. MakeMKV has a forum, there was a FreeBSD thread with very little interest. I was personally interested in using it on FreeBSD, so I created multimedia/makemkv. Other people are using it. So,


majortom said:


> why would anyone bother to do a port?


BECAUSE YOU WANT TO HAVE IT. Simple as that.


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## majortom (Sep 29, 2021)

Thank you all for your time.


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## Jose (Sep 29, 2021)

I'm not interested in Swift on Freebsd or any other platform. There. I answered the question.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Sep 29, 2021)

Beastie7 said:


> I don't understand the snide attitude here.


The Swift CoC


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## kpedersen (Sep 29, 2021)

It should be noted that Swift on non-Apple platforms will not have access to Cocoa or any of those "batteries included" systems that Swift leverages. This likely contributes to a lack of interest.

This means that even if we did have Swift support, we would need to put in so much work for language bindings. We couldn't even use many existing ones either because they do drag in (and are encouraged to do so) Cocoa systems in one way or another.

IBM originally expressed interest in Swift but quickly backtracked for this reason. In general I would recommend against Swift; not because the language is bad but simply because its upstream developers don't offer any real support on 3rd party platforms. Maybe it is why Objective-C never made much headway outside of Apple either.

i.e imagine C-Sharp without .NET or Java without JRE/Swing.


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## Jose (Sep 29, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> It should be noted that Swift on non-Apple platforms will not have access to Cocoa or any of those "batteries included" systems that Swift leverages. This likely contributes to a lack of interest.


This is a special case of the general case why I'm not interested in vendor-specific "open" platforms like Dart, Kotlin, or Swift.

Big decisions in community-driven open projects are made in the open and driven by the members of that community. I may not always like the results, but I know they won't be splash damage from idiot Harvard MBAs reading the latest trendy business book.

Swift is and will be whatever Apple execs decide. The community may get some input, but its consideration will be secondary at best. I'm not going to waste my precious free time working for Apple for free.


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## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> It should be noted that Swift on non-Apple platforms will not have access to Cocoa or any of those "batteries included" systems that Swift leverages. This likely contributes to a lack of interest.


There seems to be a disconnect between what you are discussing and Swift's use on the Server.

There is not a lack of interest in Server Side Swift, just a lack of interest for anyone using it on FreeBSD. Clearly the server side community has been growing as last year Amazon introduced a Swift Lambda and released Smoke, their server side Swift framework. This year they introduced a native Swift AWS SDK (mostly server side focused). Not sure why you are discussing Cocoa (or SwiftUI for that matter), as neither is used for server-side applications (the primary use of FreeBSD and Linux.



kpedersen said:


> This means that even if we did have Swift support, we would need to put in so much work for language bindings. We couldn't even use many existing ones either because they do drag in (and are encouraged to do so) Cocoa systems in one way or another.


When was the last time you developed a server side application in Swift or even looked at its use for server side development? To which particular language bindings are you referring?


kpedersen said:


> IBM originally expressed interest in Swift but quickly backtracked for this reason.


IBM does a large amount of Swift development, they just stopped development of Kitura, their own server side framework. That happened mostly because they got there too early. Apple had not yet produced the Linux tools needed to have it be a first class development platform. Since then, Apple has added much better tooling, and third parties (including Microsoft) have added LSP support for Swift.


kpedersen said:


> In general I would recommend against Swift; not because the language is bad but simply because its upstream developers don't offer any real support on 3rd party platforms. Maybe it is why Objective-C never made much headway outside of Apple either.


You say this based on what? Apple is an active participant in the Server Side Swift Working Group, and has steadily added open functionality for this market.


kpedersen said:


> i.e imagine C-Sharp without .NET or Java without JRE/Swing.


Foundation, SwiftNIO, libdispatch are all part of the open release. No one tried to promote Objective-C as a server side language. People wrote runtimes that were supposed to be compatible with Apple's but they were not from Apple, and given that even many macOS/iOS developers only used Obj-C for UI code (with C/C++ for most other stuff), not much of a surprise that there was not substantial adoption.


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## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

Jose said:


> This is a special case of the general case why I'm not interested in vendor-specific "open" platforms like Dart, Kotlin, or Swift.


Swift's use on the server has nothing to do with Apple's platforms, so I am not how it is "vendor-specific".


Jose said:


> Big decisions in community-driven open projects are made in the open and driven by the members of that community. I may not always like the results, but I know they won't be splash damage from idiot Harvard MBAs reading the latest trendy business book.


The Server Side Swift Working Group has the following members:

Adam Fowler (@adam-fowler)
Fabian Fett (@fabianfett, Apple)
Gwynne Raskind (@gwynne, Vapor)
Kaitlin Mahar (@kmahar, MongoDB)
Konrad Malawski (@ktoso, Apple)
Patrick Freed (@patrickfreed, MongoDB)
Simon Pilkington (@tachyonics, Amazon)
Tim Condon (@0xTim, Vapor)
Todd Varland (@toddvarland, Amazon)
With Tom Doron (@tomerd, Apple) representing the Swift core team.

Not a single Harvard MBA in the group. Two of the SSSWG are from Apple, two from Amazon, two from MongoDB, two from Vapor, and Adam Fowler is an independent who did the first Swift AWS SDK (Fabian Fett wrote the first Swift based Lambda before he went to Apple).


Jose said:


> Swift is and will be whatever Apple execs decide. The community may get some input, but its consideration will be secondary at best. I'm not going to waste my precious free time working for Apple for free.


Swift is an open source project, and the use of Swift on the server is driven by a large community with Apple being only a small part. Were Apple to suddenly change the language in a fundamental way, nothing would stop the community from forking it.

However, I am curious how developing server side applications using Swift would be "working for Apple for free"?


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## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

Jose said:


> I'm not interested in Swift on Freebsd or any other platform. There. I answered the question.


You certainly did. The first person on the thread that did.


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 30, 2021)

SirDice said:


> Swift is already on that list, …



Unfortunately, what's listed (the link within the table) is a demonstration of _disinterest_, with no indication of how many people are interested.


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## kpedersen (Sep 30, 2021)

majortom said:


> You say this based on what?


Again, mainly from the information gathered by IBM pulling out of server-side Swift (and not just Kitura it seems).

This article mentions a few challenges cited by IBM.

https://www.infoq.com/news/2020/01/ibm-stop-work-swift-server/



majortom said:


> No one tried to promote Objective-C as a server side language



Honestly, a capable language shouldn't need "promoting". I am not saying Swift (or Objective-C) are not capable; it just seems that interest in these languages outside of Apple is lethargic at best.

FreeBSD has loads of crazy niche languages supported that some guys care about. It is almost a little funny just how ignored Swift is. Even Brainfuck and ancient obsolete languages see more interest.


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## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Unfortunately, what's listed (the link within the table) is a demonstration of _disinterest_, with no indication of how many people are interested.


I would agree with you.

In response to a simple question trying to gage community interest, I got nine people responding. Not one expressed any interest  in Swift (on any platform, let alone on FreeBSD).

Instead, I got people lecturing me on how the ports process here works, complaining that I was selfish for asking others to do a port, valuable career advice (from people with no knowledge of me at all), someone who pronounces what Apple will or will not do (with no evidence or support of his statement), and two people who specifically are not interested in having it happen (one who explained that even if it did happen it would have no value because it would be so incomplete that one would not be able to use it anyway).

All super helpful.


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## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> Again, mainly from the information gathered by IBM pulling out of server-side Swift (and not just Kitura it seems).
> 
> This article mentions a few challenges cited by IBM.
> 
> https://www.infoq.com/news/2020/01/ibm-stop-work-swift-server/



The article talks about the state of the world about two years ago (It was released in January of 2020, based on decisions IBM made in October and November of 2019). Even in the article Chris says:



> Apple is working hard to address these issues, to make Swift more open, and to help build the server ecosystem — and this has recently stared to pick up pace. Tom Doron has been a driving force from Apple in promoting the server ecosystem through the Swift Server Work Group and leading Apple's efforts in the server space. Additionally Ted Kremenek has recently posted On the road to Swift 6, which describes a strong statement of intent on steps to expand the ecosystem and make it more open — including driving more focus around the fledgling Language Server Protocol (LSP) project, which will enable other IDEs to better support Swift development.


All of which have borne fruit. Since those decisions were made, the open source Swift Package Manager was released with solid build support for Linux, and Apple released SourceKit-LSP enabling third party IDE support for Swift (of which there are now several).  Adopting SPM in Xcode makes cross development for Linux much easier, as does the substantially improved Docker support. Amazon jointly developed an AWS Lambda Swift runtime and their Prime Video team built their core system on Smoke, a server side swift framework they have since released publicly as another open source, server side swift framework. In other words, in the two years since that article was written, the issues that made IBM drop its own server side Swift framework, have been resolved.


kpedersen said:


> Honestly, a capable language shouldn't need "promoting". I am not saying Swift (or Objective-C) are not capable; it just seems that interest in these languages outside of Apple is lethargic at best.


Objective-C, even in the iOS/macOS world was primarily used for building user interfaces. Given that none of the tools nor any of the libraries that made it interesting on those platforms was open source, it should not surprise anyone that it did not receive adoption outside of those platforms.

You say adoption of Swift outside Apple's platforms is "lethargic at best", where as the evidence of increasing support on the server seems pretty clear. In the time since that article was released, the dominant cloud provider has released Lambda support, its own server side Swift framework (that they use for a mission critical set of services for a critical part of their business) and has introduced its own, native Swift AWS SDK. Support went from limited on a single Linux distribution to substantial on three (including AWS's native Linux) and reasonable on Windows. Not my definition of "lethargic".


kpedersen said:


> FreeBSD has loads of crazy niche languages supported that some guys care about. It is almost a little funny just how ignored Swift is. Even Brainfuck and ancient obsolete languages see more interest.


Based on the response to this thread, I am not that surprised. The attitude towards Swift here seems to be characterized as somewhere between disinterest and genuine hostility.


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## sidetone (Sep 30, 2021)

Why are you blaming and shaming others, when you can't or don't want to do it yourself.

I've bought a book on Swift a long time ago. It seems like it's for developing for Apple and i-products more than anything. So, I dropped interest in learning about it. That, and that I read, that the next version was so different, there was no point in spending time on a version so new, yet already so obsolete.

Stop trying to shame us, when more of that responsibility falls on you. I would like to see a few ports, or things done a certain way, and while I may not be able to do it, I don't come in here and start blaming and shaming people for it.



Zirias said:


> Apple won't maintain a FreeBSD port, never. What you _could_ expect from them is to upstream changes necessary for correct building and execution on FreeBSD.





Zirias said:


> And if hundreds would ask, Apple still wouldn't maintain a "FreeBSD port". That would require them to do/submit commits to FreeBSD's ports tree.


I was a bit curious why Apple wouldn't maintain a port. They have done a lot for FreeBSD's base. If I didn't see this response, I would say for the person who wants Swift to ask Apple to maintain a port, since he wants to see it there.

It seems to me that majortom needs to ask Apple to make Swift portable so it can be more easily maintained on FreeBSD's portstree.


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> that responsibility falls on you



What responsibility, exactly?


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## sidetone (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> What responsibility, exactly?


majortom 's responsibility to do something helpful to get Swift ported more than anyone else's. Instead of shaming and blaming, for something he wants, while others aren't very interested in it.

I have a hard time putting some thoughts into words. It's not really about responsibility even though I said that. It however, falls on someone who's interested more than on those who aren't. He's acting like, it's our responsibility, and not his, even though he's the one who wants it. I see Swift as too niche by being too Mac/i-product centric.

To tell you the truth, I wanted to see newer languages get ported, and it was over my head in comparison to understanding how simple programs get ported. Asking Apple to make Swift more portable, and for example being able to be built with bmake would do a lot. A maintainer's job would have to be made easier, and portability upstream could help a lot with that.

At one time, I thought Swift would be the thing to learn, and wanted to see it get ported. I thought Rust would be cool, and while it has strengths, it seems on another world than what FreeBSD is in. I still think Julia would be cool if it were brought back, even without Python support. Julia would be awesome, but I don't have the brainpower to learn such a thing. I would try again to learn Python, since it's there.

I at least looked at Julia's needs from a Makefile standpoint, and didn't get as far as only the fetch file and compile to breaking because it lacked dependencies. What the maintainer put together for the Makefile, it was more complex than what I was capable of doing.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> _*[FONT=monospace]majortom[/FONT]*_ 's responsibility to do something helpful



Seeking expressions of interest was a good start. Some responses were less than helpful.


----------



## sidetone (Sep 30, 2021)

I understand some of the enthusiasm, but I don't understand the approach of telling us it's our responsibility for something that you want. This is not helpful at all, and it's a bit rude.

I wanted to see Julia get ported, and I wasn't even able to jump on it to use it, when it was. I might have turned it on, and typed some example commands or math equations. I don't remember. It's cool, even if I can't make use of it, or hardly make use of it. It's like me going into a music store as a child, and touching a few piano keys.

Even if I were a master of using Julia, it's not my place to make demands.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> telling us it's our responsibility



At which point did that begin?


----------



## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> Why are you blaming and shaming others, when you can't or don't want to do it yourself.


Please show me anywhere in my posts I asked anyone to do anything other than express interest if they had any. Also, please show me where I blame anyone for not doing something I want done?

I asked if there was any interest, and I got none, but did get lots of people complaining.


sidetone said:


> I've bought a book on Swift a long time ago. It seems like it's for developing for Apple and i-products more than anything. So, I dropped interest in learning about it. That, and that I read, that the next version was so different, there was no point in spending time on a version so new, yet already so obsolete.


Your information from “a long time ago” is clearly up to date. I am pretty sure that Prime Video’s core services written in Smoke, run on “Apple and i-products”, so you must be right.


sidetone said:


> Stop trying to shame us, when that responsibility falls on you. I would like to see a few ports, or things done a certain way, and while I may not be able to do it, I don't come in here and start blaming and shaming people for it.


Again, please quote from any of my posts, where I asked you, anyone on this forum, or for that matter anyone from any part of the part of the FreeBSD organization to do anything other than express interest.

Just a single line.


sidetone said:


> I was a bit curious why Apple wouldn't maintain a port. They have done a lot for FreeBSD's base. If I didn't see this response, I would say for the person who wants Swift to ask Apple to maintain a port, since he wants to see it there.


I would say the reason that Apple has not done a port to FreeBSD, is that almost no one here, or on the Swift Forum has expressed any interest in having such a port. I came here to see if there was interest, and what I found was that there seems to be a great deal of hostility to even asking if people might want it.


sidetone said:


> It seems to me that majortom needs to ask Apple to make Swift portable so it can be more easily maintained on FreeBSD's portstree.


Swift is support on macOS, Linux (three distributions), Windows and Web Assembly. That seems pretty portable. Given that no one here seems to have any interest in it (“It’s only for i-products”, “I would recommend against any one using it”), why would anyone spend any energy doing anything to bring it to this platform?


----------



## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> I understand some of the enthusiasm, but I don't understand the approach of telling us it's our responsibility for something that you want. This is not helpful at all, and it's a bit rude.


Please show me where in any of my posts I said it was your responsibility to do anything other than express interest (or even lack there of) in having it on the platform.


sidetone said:


> Even if I were a master of using Julia, it's not my place to make demands.


What demands have I made? Are you even reading my actual posts or just parroting the comments of others?


----------



## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Seeking expressions of interest was a good start. Some responses were less than helpful.


Actually, other than your responses, there really have not been any that were helpful.


----------



## sidetone (Sep 30, 2021)

You keep insisting and suggesting that it be ported. It's later you say Apple should port it.


majortom said:


> When Apple first open sourced Swift, someone ported it to FreeBSD. Then,…. Crickets.





majortom said:


> Unfortunately, still nothing on FreeBSD.





majortom said:


> Just wondering if there is something, philosophical or otherwise preventing it from happening?





majortom said:


> I am not asking why the previous port was removed, or how a new port would be maintained, or even if there are people who could port Swift themselves.


Maybe that would answer the previous question of yours.


majortom said:


> Thanks for your help. I guess Linux it is.





majortom said:


> You do not even express interest in using the result, just in suggesting that someone else do work.


Ports don't magically appear, and people politely told you, that someone has to do the work to have a port made. You don't want to hear how ports are made, yet someone has to know how ports are made for ports to be made. I'm sick of your attitude. Go use Linux. Please, do us a favor.

You got rude really quick, just because someone told you, that someone has to maintain a port for it to happen.

"I want a port, but I don't want to hear how ports are made." Ask Apple to maintain a port, as there are still 2 ways, Apple can maintain it, as someone said may not happen, or someone else can port it. You want it ported? Well, your attitude will be sure there's more resistance that wasn't there before. SOMEONE HAS TO DO IT, but you don't want to hear about it, or why it's no longer, which would be relevant to SOMEONE DOING IT. Ok, people here can ask Apple, but now there's less people who would ask, or in fact be more resistant to it.

Wanting Swift is one thing, your attitude is another.

I don't want to see Swift on FreeBSD just because of your terrible attitude. I had expression in seeing it in the past, and I was neutral afterwards by seeing how its utility was mostly for i-products and Mac.


I at least expressed interest in questioning whether Apple would port it. If Apple won't port it, and you insist it be ported. It needs a maintainer still. And the last time it was maintained, it was maintained by a volunteer. So the way to get it ported, if Apple doesn't, would be to start where their Makefile left off.


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## grahamperrin@ (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> Ports don't magically appear,



That's not polite.



sidetone said:


> and people politely told you,


----------



## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> majortom 's responsibility to do something helpful to get Swift ported more than anyone else's. Instead of shaming and blaming, for something he wants, while others aren't very interested in it.


I did do something helpful. I asked if there was any interest in having a Swift port. I also suggested that if there was interest, those who were interested should consider going to the Swift Forum and requesting a port.

In response, I got post after post from people on here talking about everything other than interest in Swift. You have repeated the phrase "shaming and blaming". Either these words mean something different to you, or you are reading someone else's post.


sidetone said:


> I have a hard time putting some thoughts into words. It's not really about responsibility even though I said that. It however, falls on someone who's interested more than on those who aren't. He's acting like, it's our responsibility, and not his, even though he's the one who wants it. I see Swift as too niche by being too Mac/i-product centric.


I am acting like it is your responsibility by asking if there is interest? Not only have I not suggested that I would expect anyone here to do a port, I specifically said that if there was enough interest, Apple would likely do it themselves, just as they have for the Linux ports. Again, if you are not interested in Swift, I do not understand why you have spent so much energy on this thread at all.

For example, here is my third post on this thread:



> Apple themselves maintain the Ubuntu, Amazon Linux and Windows ports and contribute resources to the Web Assembly version. I understand how ports are maintained by the community here, that is not what I am asking. My question is pretty straight forward: is there some reason there seems to be no interest in Swift from the FreeBSD community? *I am not asking why the previous port was removed, or how a new port would be maintained, or even if there are people who could port Swift themselves.*


I did not ask anyone to do anything other than express interest in having Swift available if they had such interest. I got everything but that. Two pages into this thread not one person has expressed interest in Swift, yet many people tell me that I should go do a port myself. If no one wants it, why should I (or anyone else for that matter), do a port?


sidetone said:


> To tell you the truth, I wanted to see newer languages get ported, and it was over my head in comparison to understanding how simple programs get ported. Asking Apple to make Swift more portable, and for example being able to be built with bmake would do a lot. A maintainer's job would have to be made easier, and portability upstream could help a lot with that.


Apple maintains most of the ports themselves. If there were interest here, I would expect them to do it as well. I do not really care what they have to do to do it, if they are doing it themselves.


----------



## sidetone (Sep 30, 2021)

I'm neutral towards Swift being ported. I don't think it should be opposed. I hope people would support it or be neutral.

Your first responses didn't help you. They tell you how it's ported. Even if Apple does all of the work, how it's ported is still relevant. If Apple doesn't port it, why offend potential volunteers. If there's two ways for it to be ported, show interest when others tell you how it's ported or the process either way. The last volunteer's work could still be relevant to it being porting again, especially if it's a volunteer again, than Apple. The process of how it's ported still matters.

For some ports, maintainers are simply a whole section of a mailing list. The email to the maintainer is a section/topic of the mailing list. For instance, what if that maintainer becomes Apple on the mailing list.

There's a chance Apple could port and maintain it. Someone said they wouldn't, so I question it. If they don't, the next thing would be to ask Apple to make Swift more portable, so the volunteer's task would be easier.


----------



## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> Ports don't magically appear, and people politely told you, that someone has to do the work to have a port made.


My question was about interest in Swift on FreeBSD, not about the process for how community FreeBSD ports are supported. If there is no interest, there is no point in any port. In addition, I did not ask anyone here to do any work at all, so telling my how ports are done is not relevant to the question of interest in the product.


sidetone said:


> You don't want to hear how ports are made, yet someone has to know how ports are made for ports to be made.


My question has nothing to do with how ports are made, because it is much earlier in the process. I wanted to know if there was interest in the product. If there is enough interest, the company that currently supports most of the other ports would likely be willing to support this one as well.



sidetone said:


> You got rude, really quick, just because someone told you, that someone has to maintain a port for it to happen.


I asked if there was interest in having Swift on FreeBSD, and got posts with every answer but someone expressing interest in the product. Even three pages into the thread, no one person has expressed any interest in Swift on FreeBSD, but there have been several people with years old information explaining why it would have no value to them or anyone, and many posts talking about process for something in which no one here has interest.


sidetone said:


> "I want a port, but I don't want to hear how ports are made."


I asked if there was interest. If there is none why would I care how ports get done? If there is interest, I would not expect it to be a community supported port, but one from the first party that already supports most of the other ports.


sidetone said:


> Ask Apple to maintain a port, as there are still 2 ways, Apple can maintain it, as someone said may not happen, or someone else can port it.


Apple maintains most of the other ports. While someone here stated with no evidence, that Apple would not do it, none of that has anything to do with whether there is interest in the product. If there is no interest, there is no reason to have a port. If there is no reason to have a port, explanations of the community porting process are completely off topic.


sidetone said:


> You want it ported?



I had interest, and wanted to see if others did as well.


sidetone said:


> Well, your attitude will be sure there's more resistance that wasn't there before. SOMEONE HAS TO DO IT, but you don't want to hear about it, or why it's no longer, which would be relevant to SOMEONE DOING IT. Ok, people here can ask Apple, but now there's less people who would ask, or in fact be more resistant to it.


If people wanted Swift on FreeBSD and no longer want it because someone asked if there was interest, it seems pretty clear that there was not much interest. You are correct about one thing, this thread sure makes a port much less likely, as anyone from Apple reading it will see a level of hostility to them and to Swift that is seems pretty basic ("I would recommend against anyone using Swift", "I wouldn't want to spend my precious time working for Apple for free.")



sidetone said:


> I don't want to see Swift on FreeBSD just because of your terrible attitude. I had expression in seeing it in the past, and I was neutral afterwards by seeing how its utility was mostly for i-products and Mac.


I am sure you will get your wish.


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## sidetone (Sep 30, 2021)

majortom said:


> not about the process for how community FreeBSD ports are supported.


You don't seem to respect the process. Which the process matters, either way. You did ask parts of why it was ported or wasn't in your first post.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Sep 30, 2021)

From the opening post:



majortom said:


> … beyond my ability to do a port, …





jbodenmann said:


> … Please become the next lang/swift maintainer. …



– polite, but it lost sight of the opening post. 

Not only an opening post; it was (as far as I can tell) the second post to FreeBSD Forums. 


The first, seven years ago, was perfectly polite but did not gain the courtesy of a response: 









						IP aliases not getting set at boot on 9.2.
					

On one of my FreeBSD 9.2 boxes I have the following lines in my rc.conf:   ifconfig_igb0_aliases="\         inet x.y.z.142-159/23 \         inet x.y.z.161-164/23 \         inet x.y.z.166-169/23 \         inet x.y.z.180-225/23 \         inet x.y.z+1.40-65/23 \         inet p.q.r.116/25 \...




					forums.freebsd.org


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## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> I'm neutral towards Swift being ported. I don't think it should be opposed. I hope people would support it or be neutral.


Neutrality is only slightly less valueless in a discussion of interest, than opposition. No one has expressed interest, and without that, Apple certainly is not going to spend energy (nor is it likely anyone else will).


sidetone said:


> Your first responses didn't help you. They tell you how it's ported. Even if Apple does all of the work, how it's ported is still relevant.


They did not respond to the question and if Apple does a port, how FreeBSD maintains community ports if completely irrelevant.


sidetone said:


> If Apple doesn't port it, why offend potential volunteers.


If they are not expressing interest in the product, why would they volunteer to expend energy on it? I did not ask anyone to do any work, nor is that my interest. I wanted to know if there was interest in Swift on FreeBSD. I got a very clear answer that no, people here have no interest.


sidetone said:


> If there's two ways for it to be ported, show interest when others tell you how it's ported or the process either way. The last volunteer's work could still be relevant to it being porting again, especially if it's a volunteer again, than Apple. The process of how it's ported still matters.


Not if there is no interest in the product. The discussion of FreeBSD's community porting process is so many steps past my question that it is beyond irrelevant.


sidetone said:


> For some ports, maintainers are simply a whole section of a mailing list. The email to the maintainer is a section/topic of the mailing list. For instance, what if that maintainer becomes Apple on the mailing list.


Please explain why I should care about the maintenance process for a product that does not exist, nor in which has there been any interest expressed? If even one person had expressed interest in having Swift on FreeBSD, there might be something further to discuss, but all that has been said here is that there is no interest in the product, but lots of interest in FreeBSD's own processes.


sidetone said:


> There's a chance Apple could port and maintain it. *Someone said they wouldn't, so I question it.* If they don't, the next thing would be to ask Apple to make Swift more portable, so the volunteer's task would be easier.


No one has expressed interest in the product here or on the Swift Forum. The hostility toward Apple and Swift and the misinformation expressed here should guarantee that it does not happen. As for the person who stated that Apple would not do it, without providing any supporting evidence, my response is the same as before: Apple maintains most of the existing non-Apple ports, so there would be no reason to expect they would not do this one as well if there were interest (and not outright hostility).


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## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> – polite, but it lost sight of the opening post.


You missed the most import part of his post:


jbodenmann said:


> *TL;DR*: Please become the next lang/swift maintainer. The community greatly appreciates your efforts


In other words: I did not even bother to read your post, but I am happy to commit you to do work (which he later helpfully explained would be a great CV booster for me).


----------



## shkhln (Sep 30, 2021)

majortom said:


> My original post asked a question "Is there interest?"


No it didn't. You realize we all can read it, do you?



majortom said:


> I did not complain about anything.


Really?


----------



## eternal_noob (Sep 30, 2021)

I am so tired of this discussion. Please stop this nonsense.


----------



## matt_k (Sep 30, 2021)

majortom said:


> Am I the only person interested in this?
> 
> Just wondering if there is something, philosophical or otherwise preventing it from happening?



Hey OP, to answer your questions: I have no idea if you are the only one interested, I can't speak for 8b+ people on this planet, but *I *honestly couldn't care less about swift.
I don't know what's preventing it from happening, perhaps no one cared enough to port it. If people really want something in FreeBSD, they go and port it (if they have the skills necessary) or pay someone else to port it for them.


Spoiler: -



this thread is IMHO unnecessarily overly dramatic and feels very aggresive for some reason


----------



## zirias@ (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> I was a bit curious why Apple wouldn't maintain a port. They have done a lot for FreeBSD's base. If I didn't see this response, I would say for the person who wants Swift to ask Apple to maintain a port, since he wants to see it there.


The direction with base is the other way around. They are using some code from FreeBSD, so they're interested in contributing back, including participation in FreeBSD's reviews etc.

They don't use FreeBSD as a whole system themselves, so contributing to FreeBSD ports would mean to make sure one of their products is available _for_ FreeBSD, without themselves using it. I'd never expect them to do such contributions as a part of their own release cycle. I _would_ expect them to upstream necessary patches (if any), but that would require someone else to create and maintain a port first.


----------



## Jose (Sep 30, 2021)

majortom said:


> With Tom Doron (@tomerd, Apple) representing the Swift core team.


Let's take a quick look at that core team that "reviews and helps iterate on language evolution proposals from the community at large, acting as the *approver* of these proposals." (Emphasis mine.)

Ben Cohen - Apple
Chris Lattner - Former Apple
Doug Gregor - Apple
Joe Groff - Apple
John McCall - Apple
Saleem Abdulrasool - Google
Ted Kremenek - Apple
Tom Doron - Apple
I'm supposed to believe there are no Harvard MBAs in any of these people's management hierarchies?


----------



## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

Jose said:


> Let's take a quick look at that core team that "reviews and helps iterate on language evolution proposals from the community at large, acting as the *approver* of these proposals." (Emphasis mine.)
> 
> Ben Cohen - Apple
> Chris Lattner - Former Apple
> ...


Here is a link to Apple’s leader ship page: https://www.apple.com/leadership/ among the 18 people listed, there are 5 MBAs, none from Harvard. Of the 5 MBAs, only Tim Cook would be in the management chain at all for the software engineering organization. Even the VP of Marketing, Greg Joswiak has a BS in Computer Engineering from Univ of Michigan, (no MBA at all) and the SVP of Software Engineering is a MS and BS in EECS from UCB, so you can believe what you wish, but I would be shocked if anyone on the Swift team reported to anyone with a Harvard MBA, or in fact even had a Harvard MBA anywhere in their management chain.


----------



## sidetone (Sep 30, 2021)

The OP needs to grow up. It's inappropriate to make demands like this, and not respect a process in which he wants an end result. The person is making a demand for a port, while, claming no one else should do it, but it happen. Then, the next demands someone here to port it, twice, as far as I saw. A Swift port would be difficult, and it's not as simple as a basic port with few to no dependencies. If you're not going to respect the porting process, why ask to have it ported? If Apple ports it, then that's great. If not, why anger everyone here? Who knows, you could anger Apple to not want to port it, by telling them how you tell us here.

Demanding isn't helpful to getting Swift ported. Doing some actual work, like looking at a Makefile or listening when others tell you about the porting process would be helpful. But, you know, you make demands, and don't want to learn. It also shows you won't have respect for a volunteer's work.

Ports don't magically appear, is a fact. I said this, after the person doesn't respect the porting process, doesn't respect learning about porting, and was rude to those who explained early on about ports.



Zirias said:


> They don't use FreeBSD as a whole system themselves, so contributing to FreeBSD ports would mean to make sure one of their products is available _for_ FreeBSD, without themselves using it.


Swift itself as an Apple product. That in itself may be advertising or pr for their company and product. I can't predict if it would be in Apple's interest, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did or considered it.



Jose said:


> I'm supposed to believe there are no Harvard MBAs in any of these people's management hierarchies?


MBA's are expected within such a group. Not necessarily from Harvard, or any other particular university.



matt_k said:


> this thread is IMHO unnecessarily overly dramatic and feels very aggresive for some reason


Because it is. It's veiled, but at the same time apparent enough to notice it in the tone. It's just enough, that the person can claim they weren't being aggressive. It's something like emotional blackmail, maybe emotional isn't the word, but it's something to that effect.



<< I want it ported. I didn't ask anyone to port it, except for 1 person I asked to port it, because they brought up porting it. I didn't ask anyone to port it, I asked Apple to port it. I won't acknowledge that if Apple doesn't port it, the only way it can be ported is if a volunteer ports it. I don't have respect for the contributions of volunteers. I'm going to Linux, but I'm still here demanding it be ported. Why isn't it ported? I didn't ask why it wasn't ported. Don't explain the porting process to me, I don't want to know about it, I just want it ported. I'm not interested in the porting process, I just want it ported. >>


----------



## kpedersen (Sep 30, 2021)

majortom said:


> In response, I got post after post from people on here talking about everything other than interest in Swift.


I believe I made it very clear some of the issues contributing to the lack of an up-to-date Swift port.

Yes, it evidently isn't what you wanted to hear but this is the situation.

You say these issues have been resolved but evidently there are still some challenges or some hesitation as to why very few are using Swift in this use-case. I notice very few Linux distros also provide package support for the Swift language / platform. Perhaps ask these communities what their reasons are too? It might be a common cause that can be resolved.


----------



## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> The OP needs to grow up. It's inappropriate to make demands like this, and not respect a process in which he wants an end result.


You keep saying that I am making demands. You took my original post as demanding that someone here port it. I have said repeatedly that I am not even suggesting that someone here port it, and that all I am asking is if there is interest. In response, I keep being told that I am demanding that someone here do something. If there is not enough interest to get Apple to do a port, then I do not think it would be worth it from my perspective to do a port (by me or anyone else on here). What is so odd is that no matter how many times I repeat that my only question is, is there interest in a port, I keep getting told to stop demanding one.


sidetone said:


> The person is making a demand for a port, while, claming no one else should do it, but it happen.


No, I repeat over and over that my only question is are people interested in have Swift on FreeBSD. I have said the same thing over and over. I specifically say I do not expect anyone here to do any work other than express interest in a product, and it does not matter, because you have decided what I mean despite my plain words over and over. You might be able to misinterpret my first post (I can see how someone could read it as asking why no one here has done it), but not one post after that is anything but clear as to what my request is.


sidetone said:


> Then, the next demands someone here to port it, twice, as far as I saw.


Please quote my text from anything other than my first post where I demand (or ever suggest) that anyone here should do anything other than express interest in the port. Just one time where I say that.


sidetone said:


> A Swift port would be difficult, and it's not as simple as a basic port with few to no dependencies.


Which is why I want to know if there is interest, and why I, as I have said over and over, I would not expect it to be a community port.


sidetone said:


> If you're not going to respect the porting process, why ask to have it ported?


I did not ask to have it ported. In response to what it seems was a misinterpretation of my first port, I have clarified repeatedly that 1) it is not my interest in having someone here port it, and that 2) all I want it to know if there is interest.


sidetone said:


> If Apple ports it, then that's great.


Which will only happen if there is actually interest expressed in using Swift on FreeBSD.


sidetone said:


> If not, why anger everyone here?


You seem to be quite good at angering yourselves. No matter how many times I clarify, repeat, and state what I am asking, I keep getting told I am asking for something else.


sidetone said:


> Who knows, you could anger Apple to not want to port it, by telling them how you tell us here.


I do not have to do anything to anger Apple, you guys are quite capable of doing that yourselves. In each of the threads discussing Swift on FreeBSD, the bulk of the actual comments on Swift and Apple are negative. (”I would recommend against anyone using Swift”, I bought a book about Swift a long time ago and decided it was only for developing for i-products, Apple‘s Harvard MBA’s will arbitrarily make this open source product unusable for no reason at all, etc.).



sidetone said:


> Demanding isn't helpful to getting Swift ported.


Again, please quote any post outside the first one where anything I say can be viewed as a demand for anyone to do anything.


sidetone said:


> Doing some actual work, like looking at a Makefile or listening when others tell you about the porting process would be helpful.


Before it would make sense for anyone to bother looking at anything, it would first make sense to determine if there was interest. That is the question I keep asking and yet, no one who is interested in Swift has responded to this thread at all. Not one person. There has not been a thread about Swift on here in five years. On the Swift Forum, there had been little interest, so I thought raising the question of interest here would get a more concentrated group of FreeBSD users where if there were people interested it would be easier to find them.


sidetone said:


> But, you know, you make demands, and don't want to learn. It also shows you won't have respect for a volunteer's work.


No, I do not make any demands, as I say over and over. Not one of the people who lecture me on the community porting process has expressed interest in having the product, they are singularly focused on the process for someone here doing something that no one seems to want.


sidetone said:


> Ports don't magically appear, is a fact.


Nor has anyone asked for a port to magically appear.


sidetone said:


> I said this, after the person doesn't respect the porting process, doesn't respect learning about porting, and was rude to those who explained early on about ports.


Here is a review of this thread. I asked a question to gage interest in Swift on FreeBSD. Some people here misinterpreted that question to be a request that someone here do a port. I clarified that my only interest is in determining interest in having the product to which the response was not: ”Oh, I see how we misinterpreted what you were asking“, but no matter what you say you are asking, we want to talk about something else.

Further when people actually comment on the real question (interest in Swift on FreeBSD), they are exclusively negative. Now it is certainly possible that there is a great majority of people who are dying for this port to happen, but they have never posted a question about interest in having it (either here or on the Swift Forum), and that they are afraid to say anything about their interest because, no matter how in capable of doing a port themselves they might be, they did not want to get lectured about expressing that opinion, but I think that is unlikely.


sidetone said:


> Swift itself as an Apple product.


Yes, it is. They themselves has ported it and its libraries to three different Linux distributions and provide primary (or secondary) support for several other versions. They also have directly supported development of many server side tools.


sidetone said:


> That in itself may be advertising or pr for their company and product. I can't predict if it would be in Apple's interest, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did or considered it.


Apple has clearly decided that they see a benefit in Swift being as widely available as is possible, hence their expanding porting effort. They have also decided that Swift on the Server is valuable, going as far as including sessions about it in the World Wide Developer Conference this year. Given that, it seems reasonable to expect (despite the pronouncements by someone on here), that if there was a large expressed interest for it on this platform, Apple would do a port themselves.


sidetone said:


> MBA's are expected within such a group. Not necessarily from Harvard, or any other particular university.


In Apple’s engineering organization, there are very few MBA’s and the commenter was very specific that he was talking about Harvard MBAs in particular.


sidetone said:


> Because it is. It's veiled, but at the same time apparent enough to notice it in the tone.


No, it is not. I respond over and over clarifying my request and keep getting told that it does not matter what the plain meaning of my words is, but that they mean something else. It is just odd.


sidetone said:


> << I want it ported. I didn't ask anyone to port it, except for 1 person I asked to port it, because they brought up porting it.


No, I am interested in having Swift on FreeBSD. I have not ever asked anyone here to port it. I repeat that over and over, and keep being told that is what I want. When people tell me that is what I am asking, I never agree with them, but again clarify that all I want to know is is there interest, and keep getting told that is not what I am asking.


sidetone said:


> I didn't ask anyone to port it,


I did not ask anyone to port it, I asked if there was an interest in having the product. These are not the same thing no matter how much you seem to want them to be.


sidetone said:


> I asked Apple to port it.


On the Swift Forum, I am one of a small number of people who expressed interest in having Swift on FreeBSD. On this forum, I did not ask Apple to do anything. I said that if there was enough interest, it would be likely that Apple would do a port.


sidetone said:


> I won't acknowledge that if Apple doesn't port it, the only way it can be ported is if a volunteer ports it.


Actually, that is not the only way it could be ported, nor is even necessarily the most likely way for it to happen, but is certainly one way it could happen. I have never disputed that, I just have said, that is not my interest, nor have I requested that.


sidetone said:


> I don't have respect for the contributions of volunteers.


I very much respect the contributions of volunteers and I am keenly aware of the issues with deploying scarce resources (including my own). That is why I keep saying that my interest is in determining if there is interest in having the product. If there was enough interest, including from enough people who control budgets, a group on here could directly fund a port, without having a single volunteer work on it.


sidetone said:


> I'm going to Linux, but I'm still here demanding it be ported.


I have quite a few FreeBSD systems, and never said I would move any of their tasks to Linux. What I did say is that, since there seems to be no interest in having the product, I was resigned to using it for the deployment of my server side swift applications. Again, not once have I demanded anything, let alone a Swift port.


sidetone said:


> Why isn't it ported? I didn't ask why it wasn't ported. Don't explain the porting process to me, I don't want to know about it, I just want it ported. I'm not interested in the porting process, I just want it ported. >>


A summary of this thread: Me: Is there interest in Swift on FreeBSD? This forum: No, stop demanding that we volunteers do work for you. Me: I am not demanding that you do anything, just asking if people are interested in using this product. This forum: See, there you go again demanding we do a port for you! Here is a long lecture on how our community porting process works. Me: I am not asking anyone to do anything, and certainly not demanding it, I just want to know if there is interest. This forum: You are terrible, you keep making demands. Me: What demands have I made? I am just asking if there is interest. This forum: Swift is only used for writhing UI based applications on Apple products and even if it were to be available it would have no value, and here is another lecture on our porting process. Me: I am not asking anyone here to do a port, I am asking if anyone would want to use a port. This forum: There you go demanding a port again, despite your stating the exact opposite, we clearly know what you mean and despite your plain words, you clearly are demanding something from us. Stop it.

As I said, it is just odd.


----------



## zirias@ (Sep 30, 2021)

TL;DR


----------



## jbo (Sep 30, 2021)

I really didn't want to jump back in here but I think this is getting out at of hands. At this point we're just wasting each other's time by being nit-picky about specific wording and getting hung up on details instead of seeing the bigger picture: The OP asked whether there is any interest, apparently there is not much on this forum right now (which is only a small portion of FreeBSD users) and that is it. 

I'm certainly sorry for my part in this. Neither of my messages was intended to start a discussion like this. I do understand OPs response in that my post did not help at all and seemed like I didn't read the original post. While that was not the intention, I see how it happened.

So how about we drop this non-sense now. OP got his answer - with a some miscommunication in-between and that is it. I feel like anything from hereon is just driving people apart unnecessarily in the hopes that somebody gets to proof their point (which probably won't happen either).


----------



## Jose (Sep 30, 2021)

majortom said:


> Here is a link to Apple’s leader ship page: https://www.apple.com/leadership/ among the 18 people listed, there are 5 MBAs, none from Harvard. Of the 5 MBAs, only Tim Cook would be in the management chain at all for the software engineering organization. Even the VP of Marketing, Greg Joswiak has a BS in Computer Engineering from Univ of Michigan, (no MBA at all) and the SVP of Software Engineering is a MS and BS in EECS from UCB, so you can believe what you wish, but I would be shocked if anyone on the Swift team reported to anyone with a Harvard MBA, or in fact even had a Harvard MBA anywhere in their management chain.


You have access to Apple's entire engineering and product org chart? Wait a second.

Member with 28 posts. 27 of them are in this thread. No activity since 2014 before this thread. Things that make you go hmmm...


----------



## eternal_noob (Sep 30, 2021)

He's Tim Cook and wants us to do the work for him. For free.
Hey Tim! Your company sucks, go away!


----------



## Jose (Sep 30, 2021)

eternal_noob said:


> He's Tim Cook and wants us to do the work for him. For free.


I very seriously doubt Tim cares about Swift. I would be surprised if he knew about server side Swift at all. Apple under him is rapidly becoming a smartphone company. I'm sure Swift on the server will die a horrible death in a few years, like Mac OS X server before it. Maybe it'll become a zombie like Darwin.


----------



## astyle (Sep 30, 2021)

This is getting out of hand... majortom seems to be just missing the whole point of Open Source development, and how it works in general. Trying to drum up (and assess) interest is one thing. In the world of business, there's also such a thing as 'Feasibility Study'. OP's feasibility study should show that while there's *some* interest in Swift for FreeBSD, it's not strong enough to motivate people to sit down and put in the effort it takes to port Swift to FreeBSD. If that's a problem for OP, then he should just start coding and problem solving himself, and see where that takes him. 

What can Swift do that other languages cannot? 

As a side note, Sun Microsystems' Java language appeared on the scene in 1996 because C/C++ was suffering from memory safety issues at the time. IIRC, Java did not make it into FreeBSD ports until 2004. Back then, there were not that many programming languages even in existence, let alone ported to FreeBSD. If a language was ported to FreeBSD, that was because there was enough motivation (for whatever reason) to put in the required effort. These days, we are spoiled for choice as to what language to use to do programming on FreeBSD, and Swift is just a blip on our radar.


----------



## kpedersen (Sep 30, 2021)

astyle said:


> Java did not make it into FreeBSD ports until 2004.


I remember those days. There was considerable interest in Java. So much so that FreeBSD Foundation made a (paid?) deal with Sun Microsystems to provide us with a bespoke Java binary (JRE/JDK was still closed-source then). This binary (package) was the DiabloJDK. Cool name! Later revisions of the open-source JDK actually bootstrapped themselves of this aging DiabloJDK blob for a long time after that.

Though I am now getting off topic. Though it does demonstrate that if there is sufficient interest, anything can be made to run on FreeBSD. I imagine Swift is easier to port than an entire JavaVM runtime + tools.


----------



## Jose (Sep 30, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> I remember those days. There was considerable interest in Java. So much so that FreeBSD Foundation made a (paid?) deal with Sun Microsystems to provide us with a bespoke Java binary (JRE/JDK was still closed-source then). This binary (package) was the DiabloJDK. Cool name! Later revisions of the open-source JDK actually bootstrapped themselves of this aging DiabloJDK blob for a long time after that.
> 
> Though I am now getting off topic. Though it does demonstrate that if there is sufficient interest, anything can be made to run on FreeBSD. I imagine Swift is easier to port than an entire JavaVM runtime + tools.


This bootstrap was done with GCJ over in Linux-land:





						Java - Gentoo Wiki
					






					wiki.gentoo.org
				



Good times.

Yeah, we're redshifting as one of our frequent posters likes to say. I don't get that metaphor, though.

Java managed to develop a large and vibrant community for its language despite Sun's best efforts at stifling it in its crib. The world was very different back then. Heck, proprietary C compilers were still in very wide use. GCC was kind of a sick joke even on x86, not to speak of the horrors that lurked in say, PA-RISC*. Things have improved vastly since then. There are many excellent truly open and community-driven languages and runtimes now, as Eternal_noob points out. Why would I risk breaking my teeth on nuggets of corporate BS by taking a bite of the Swift bread?

* One of my first jobs was working on a product developed in Java for HP-UX. There was a JDK for that platform before there was one for Linux because HP paid to have it ported. It was full of exciting obscure bugs.


----------



## sidetone (Sep 30, 2021)

eternal_noob said:


> He's Tim Cook and wants us to do the work for him. For free.


He would just have his paid employees do it, and stop demanding from volunteers. He would also care about how it would get ported. A smaller company would throw thousands of $ to have someone port it, then be gracious about the processing of porting.

This person is acting like its his place to boss us around. Even if he had paid workers he could tell to do something, this is no way to treat others. He threads a line, so he can claim, he's not doing what he's actually doing. It's disrepectful to any volunteer who would potentially port it.



Jose said:


> I very seriously doubt Tim cares about Swift. I would be surprised if he knew about server side Swift at all. Apple under him is rapidly becoming a smartphone company.


Swift is actually for developing aps on Apple smart phones, and Swift is his company's product. He would know more about what his company is doing than that.



Jose said:


> You have access to Apple's entire engineering and product org chart? Wait a second.


My guess is, he's a fan of Apple. Which is fine.



Jose said:


> we're redshifting as one of our frequent posters likes to say. I don't get that metaphor, though.


Redshift is an astronomy or physics term for a star or galaxy moving away from Earth's position. They observe light similarly to the doppler effect for sound. If it's moving away, it appears redder. If it's moving closer, it appears bluer.


----------



## astyle (Sep 30, 2021)

sidetone said:


> Swift is actually for developing aps on Apple smart phones, and Swift is his company's product. He would know more about what his company is doing than that.


I thought that was Cocoa,  (which was the case in the early days), but Apple doesn't merit enough attention from me to notice something like that. Apple is not getting any of my money.



sidetone said:


> It's an astronomy or physics term for a star moving away from Earth's position. They observe light similarly to the doppler effect for sound. If it's moving away, it appears red. If it's moving closer, it appears blue.


Yeah, I got the metaphor... redshift is moving further and further away from the topic. There's also such a thing as red herring, which refers to the same thing. <--- not my original idea, I got this from another post that I'm too lazy to find and link to, sorry! And in some of my own posts I did say that staying on topic is an essential skill in problem solving.


----------



## obsigna (Sep 30, 2021)

majortom said:


> When Apple first open sourced Swift, someone ported it to FreeBSD. Then,…. Crickets.
> 
> In the meantime, Swift has been ported to Windows, Web Assembly, several additional Linux distributions, has received first class AWS Lambda support, and most recently got an official Amazon AWS SDK. Unfortunately, still nothing on FreeBSD. I have several Server Side Swift applications that I would love to host on my own systems, but without a FreeBSD port, I am stuck adding Linux boxes for them.  It is beyond my ability to do a port, but it would be nice for there to be one. Am I the only person interested in this? There has been a topic on the Swift forum, to add official FreeBSD support, but there has not been much support from the FreeBSD community for it.
> 
> Just wondering if there is something, philosophical or otherwise preventing it from happening?


You want to go to the Swift project page on GitHub.








						GitHub - apple/swift: The Swift Programming Language
					

The Swift Programming Language. Contribute to apple/swift development by creating an account on GitHub.




					github.com
				




Then enter FreeBSD into the GitHub search bar and select this repository, now find out, that a lot of work is done for FreeBSD. Finally find this one:








						Fix build on FreeBSD by drexin · Pull Request #38335 · apple/swift
					

These changes make Swift build on FreeBSD (tested on 13.0-RELEASE-p1). There are some tests that I had to XFAIL, but the majority works. SourceKit tests are very unstable and seem to fail when too ...




					github.com
				




So, there is a pull request for letting the current Swift project build on FreeBSD 13.

My advice is, to forget the Swift noobs on these forums, but instead try to build Swift on FreeBSD 13 after applying said pull request, and ask for help on the Swift project page.


----------



## majortom (Sep 30, 2021)

obsigna said:


> You want to go to the Swift project page on GitHub.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! Thanks. I will go try this and ask there.

Super helpful.


----------



## intini (Oct 1, 2021)

Answering the OP question: Yes! I would love to see Swift ported and maintained on FreeBSD. I like the language very much and it would be wonderful to see it running on our favorite OS. Of course, it would be even greater to see also some sort of GUI library for it.
I went to GitHub and asked there too.


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## DaBrooklyner (Oct 1, 2021)

Would be happy to assist in the port as much as I can. I am more of a sysadmin than a coder, but I do have an M1 MacMini that is supposed to be used for swift development and got my initial training from Apple.


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## majortom (Oct 1, 2021)

intini said:


> Answering the OP question: Yes! I would love to see Swift ported and maintained on FreeBSD. I like the language very much and it would be wonderful to see it running on our favorite OS. Of course, it would be even greater to see also some sort of GUI library for it.
> I went to GitHub and asked there too.


Thanks. I would also suggest going to the Swift Forum and adding a post there to this thread:









						FreeBSD and Swift
					

So Landon Fullers swift-freebsd was active when Swift became open source in Version 2, but is now over 40000 commits behind master.  By now besides that version we have an active port of 3.1.1_5 FreshPorts -- lang/swift: Swift programing language and apparently simply installing Swift from...




					forums.swift.org


----------



## astyle (Oct 1, 2021)

majortom said:


> Thanks. I would also suggest going to the Swift Forum and adding a post there to this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is getting closer, but still feels like you're ordering people around, rather than handing out an invitation.


----------



## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

And it's still expecting posting stuff to a forum will make things happen. Not a good bet…


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## majortom (Oct 1, 2021)

astyle said:


> This is getting closer, but still feels like you're ordering people around, rather than handing out an invitation.


Against my better judgement, I am going to respond to you.

You have no interest in this using Swift on FreeBSD. Your comments ("I thought that was Cocoa, (which was the case in the early days), but Apple doesn't merit enough attention from me to notice something like that. Apple is not getting any of my money.") make it clear that this is not for you.

Why do you insist in inserting yourself in a conversation between two people actually concerned about the topic to provide an etiquette lesson, taking offense at a comment that has nothing to do with you? It is just bizarre.

The person to whom I responded, said he had posted on the previously linked Github page. In response to *him* (not you, not any of the others who only seem to spend their time on explaining why everything is wrong), I suggested that he also express interest on the Swift Forum.

When you you actually decide that you are interested in Swift, and you learn why it is being used extensively for server side applications by many companies whose services you probably use (like Amazon), I might consider responding to you again.

Until then, good luck and have a great life.


----------



## majortom (Oct 1, 2021)

Zirias said:


> And it's still expecting posting stuff to a forum will make things happen. Not a good bet…



Again, you do not care about this product as you have made abundantly clear. Why do you care what those who are interested in it do?

When you have some interest in using Server Side Swift and have actual knowledge of the product that is more recent than "a long time ago", I will consider your remarks.

Until then, good luck and have a nice life.


----------



## astyle (Oct 1, 2021)

majortom said:


> Against my better judgement, I am going to respond to you.
> 
> You have no interest in this using Swift on FreeBSD. Your comments ("I thought that was Cocoa, (which was the case in the early days), but Apple doesn't merit enough attention from me to notice something like that. Apple is not getting any of my money.") make it clear that this is not for you.
> 
> ...


There is such a thing as forum etiquette, in addition to forum rules:









						FreeBSD Forums Rules
					

This section contains general FreeBSD Forums rules which should be followed by all members in order to keep the quality of these forums on a high level.  Though many of the FreeBSD development members read this forum, we cannot always guarantee that we will get to your questions in a timely...




					forums.freebsd.org
				



As a member of this forum, I have the freedom to call out other posters who don't respect the etiquette or the rules. FreeBSD forums are for problem solving, not for ordering people around.


----------



## shkhln (Oct 1, 2021)

majortom said:


> When you you actually decide that you are interested in Swift





majortom said:


> When you have some interest in using Server Side Swift


No, thanks. We have Swift at home: https://www.freshports.org/lang/smlnj/, https://www.freshports.org/lang/mlton/, https://www.freshports.org/lang/ocaml/, https://www.freshports.org/lang/scala/, https://www.freshports.org/lang/rust/.


----------



## majortom (Oct 1, 2021)

DaBrooklyner said:


> Would be happy to assist in the port as much as I can. I am more of a sysadmin than a coder, but I do have an M1 MacMini that is supposed to be used for swift development and got my initial training from Apple.


I am waiting for the next generation of Apple Silicon machines before I switch. I have a few 2018 Mac mini, that are test beds and an iMac Pro on my desk. My B/F is an editor and artist and he's been working on a 2019 Mac Pro that he loves.

As soon as there are replacements for those two systems, we will switch. He paid off the Pro with the second project he did using it, so we are confident that these new systems will be just as cost effective.  

If you have interest in Server Side applications, go take a look at the Vapor stuff (Vapor.Codes). Their discord community is super welcoming and very active.


----------



## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

Insults won't get you a port either


----------



## majortom (Oct 1, 2021)

obsigna said:


> My advice is, to forget the Swift noobs on these forums, but instead try to build Swift on FreeBSD 13 after applying said pull request, and ask for help on the Swift project page.


Yup. I built it with the patch, it is not yet perfect, but pretty far along. Thanks for the pointers.


----------



## sidetone (Oct 1, 2021)

When people were telling you how it would get ported, you kept being rude, saying you didn't ask that. You were disrepectful to what it would take to be ported.

Like I was saying, it's important how it would get ported. So, now that matters?

You were also making demands it be ported, but then backtracking by saying, you didn't ask anyone to port it. Yet, you demanded that someone specfic in this thread port it. You then claimed, you want Apple to port it, yet, now you decided, that you could get it built. This is also a backtrack.

That goes with what I said, it's important how it would get ported. Show respect to the process of porting, and stop trying to boss people around while weaving in and out of your statements. It's not your place.

The toxic manipulation rubs me the wrong way.

Some whether we had or never had an interest in Swift, noticed the toxic manipulation.


----------



## intini (Oct 2, 2021)

majortom said:


> Thanks. I would also suggest going to the Swift Forum and adding a post there to this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link. I have left a message there too.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

SirDice said:


> There was a port for it; lang/swift





matt_k said:


> perhaps no one cared enough to port it.



There was a port. Please see posts #1 and #2 on page 1.

People, please read page 1, the opening post in particular.



sidetone said:


> … demands …





sidetone said:


> … toxic manipulation …



Food for thought: the opening post #1 made no _demand_.



astyle said:


> … ordering people around …



Food for thought: no such order in the opening post. 



astyle said:


> … etiquette …





Jose said:


> Things that make you go hmmm...



Frankly, FreeBSD Forums. 



eternal_noob said:


> I am so tired of this discussion.



If that were true, why did you make it more tiresome?



eternal_noob said:


> Please stop this nonsense.


----------



## eternal_noob (Oct 2, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> why did you make it more tiresome?


I didn't. I just asked a question and expressed my thoughts on


Jose said:


> Things that make you go hmmm...


----------



## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

But the toxic manipulation came, it didn't matter if it was in the first post or not.

Just because you want to see Swift, doesn't mean to support someone acting by any means, especially if that behavior is making veiled demands, manipulating, and being disrespectful to the porting process, thus to those who volunteer to the porting process or any capacity. And backtracking to hide it.

And this gets me, I've been saying all along, the porting process is important, and suddenly that person jumps to, being enthusiastic about porting it, after being rude about exclaiming he doesn't give a shit about porting. Couldn't even show appreciation to them.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

sidetone said:


> veiled demands, being disrespectful to the porting process, and to those who volunteer to the porting process or any capacity. And backtracking to hide it.



You seem to be twisting people's words. This is debatably manipulative; potentially toxic.


----------



## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

No, it's not. I identify it. and I've seen people who act like that, use those kinds of words and hide it.

I don't speak like that in any capacity. I don't associate with people who talk like that in any capacity either.

I already explained it, you think, any means to get a Swift port, and bossy behavior doesn't matter.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

sidetone said:


> No, it's not.



Is twisting people's words more often positive than it is toxic?


----------



## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

I didn't twist anyone's words. Those statements by that person are classic manipulation, and it's often spoken by those who manipulate others. Are you trying to twist mine?


----------



## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

grahamperrin : If you click on a couple back-references, you will see the post where I first mention the part about ordering people around:


astyle said:


> This is getting closer, but still feels like you're ordering people around, rather than handing out an invitation.


What do you think I was responding to?

sidetone : I think it would help you with making a point if you use the [QUOTE]tags, and refer to the post you're responding to.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

sidetone said:


> I didn't twist anyone's words.



With respect: I see otherwise, and I hope that you can eventually see it for yourself.


----------



## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

majortom said:


> When you you actually decide that you are interested in Swift, and you learn why it is being used extensively for server side applications by many companies whose services you probably use (like Amazon), I might consider responding to you again.
> 
> Until then, good luck and have a great life.


If that's not an example of being toxic, I don't know what would be. That kind of tone was awfully prevalent from OP.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

majortom said:


> Thanks. I would also suggest



astyle "Thanks" is common courtesy. Etiquette. 

A courteous suggestion is *not* an order.



astyle said:


> If that's not an example of being toxic, I don't know what would be.



Misrepresenting a courteous suggestion as an order is debatably toxic.


----------



## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> astyle "Thanks" is common courtesy. Etiquette.
> 
> A courteous suggestion is *not* an order.


I agree with the part about saying "Thanks", but the sentence


majortom said:


> I would also suggest going to the Swift Forum and adding a post there to this thread:


really sounds like a boss telling a clueless subordinate what to do. This might fly in the workplace (depending on the country and industry), but I think that on the forums, that would be a breach of forum etiquette. I think that saying something like "Can I ask you to post this on the Swift forums?" AND providing a link to the thread - that would be much better tone. To top it off, some kind of appreciative follow-up would be good. That's just my opinion here, of course.
edit: Double-checking made me realize that the link was in fact provided.


----------



## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

I have posted quotes, basically the whole thing. The person dances around it and makes excuses and backtracks. A lot of it is context.

Just the whole, she wants to see a port, but expresses how she doesn't care what FreeBSD does or how it would port it. Uh, how else would it get ported? If they wanted Apple to exclusively port it, then that person needs to go on that forum. People are telling someone how a port is made, or what it takes, and basically, they get told, I DIDN'T ASK THAT. You didn't ask that, but it's relevant to everything about how a port gets done. If you don't care how something is ported, don't ask people to "express" interest in how it's ported excuse me, it being ported. How it's ported is fundamental to it being ported, whether Apple or a volunteer does it.

This is just plain rude.


majortom said:


> I guess Linux it is.


That's like emotional blackmail.


majortom said:


> I have quite a few FreeBSD systems, and never said I would move any of their tasks to Linux.





grahamperrin said:


> With respect: I see otherwise, and I hope that you can eventually see it for yourself.


Well, you're accusing me. When I at least have respect for the porting process, and don't treat people like I'm making demands. Even if I were paying someone to do something, I don't boss people around or treat them like how the OP is.

They're veiled orders. That's why they're veiled.



majortom said:


> I just find it funny, that not one person who has responded to this thread has expressed interest in using Swift on FreeBSD (the actual question being asked), but all have tried to explain why someone else should spend energy on maintaining it.


Yet, this same person shows a bossy tone.




majortom said:


> Glad you are looking out for my career future. If I was worried about this from a CV standpoint, learning to use Linux, the dominant OS and Cloud hosting platform, would be way more valuable than being the maintainer of an open source port on FreeBSD.





majortom said:


> However, it seems clear that there is no interest from this community. Great that people are super excited about explaining process and their their lack of interest in the product though.





majortom said:


> I asked a question if there was interest in Swift on FreeBSD. I did not ask a question about how I could become the maintainer of a port, how ports get done





majortom said:


> That was not the question I asked. Again, lots of great explanations about the ports process, and none expressing interest in Swift on FreeBSD.





majortom said:


> If you are not interested in Swift on FreeBSD, why do you think it adds value to this thread to respond on topics not asked?





majortom said:


> Not once did I ever suggest that anyone in this community should do anything other than express interest or lack there of in using Swift on FreeBSD. Not one single response to my post responded to the question I asked.
> 
> Not one.





majortom said:


> That was not the question I asked. Again, lots of great explanations about the ports process, and none expressing interest in Swift on FreeBSD.





majortom said:


> My original post asked a question "Is there interest?", and made some observations about the current state. I did not complain about anything. If you are not interested in Swift on FreeBSD, why do you think it adds value to this thread to respond on topics not asked?





majortom said:


> Instead, I got people lecturing me on how the ports process here works, complaining that I was selfish for asking others to do a port, valuable career advice (from people with no knowledge of me at all), someone who pronounces what Apple will or will not do (with no evidence or support of his statement), and two people who specifically are not interested in having it happen (one who explained that even if it did happen it would have no value because it would be so incomplete that one would not be able to use it anyway).
> 
> All super helpful.



A few more quotes: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/swift-5-5-for-freebsd.82225/post-534003

There's hypocrisy too. I keep saying, the porting process matters, then someone keeps slamming, that they didn't ask about the porting process and doesn't care. Without a porting process, a port doesn't happen.


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## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

sidetone said:


> This whole thread is bullshit.


To be honest, I agree... and yet we all keep posting to it. I guess it's some kind of psychological pull - instead of simply getting up to have a beer, or even ignoring it completely, we keep beating this horse.


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## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

I wish the person would show respect to the porting process, and this would stop.

"I would also suggest going to the Swift Forum and adding a post there to this thread." I think that one's ok.


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

grahamperrin , you're the one twisting words here. No surprise to me of course.


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

astyle said:


> clueless subordinate



Your words, not his hers, and your words are inflammatory.



> etiquette



Etiquette often begins with respect to an opening post. Proper reading thereof.

If there's a question, focus on answering the opening poster's question.

Ignorance and going off-topic are poor etiquette.



sidetone said:


> I wish … this would stop.



You're perpetuating. The *Unwatch* button exists.



sidetone said:


> That's like emotional blackmail.



This conveniently ignores the emotion that came first.

The opening post, which was hugely disrespected.

The opening post, which showed love for FreeBSD:



majortom said:


> I have several Server Side Swift applications that I would love to host on my own systems, but without a FreeBSD port, I am stuck adding Linux boxes for them.


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## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

Considering how something gets ported has everything to do with how something gets ported, telling lots of people, I didn't ask how it gets ported is disrespectful. Yet, the person ultimately wants it ported.

Telling people the unwatch button exists? What's that?


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

From the first sentence of the opening post:



majortom said:


> Swift, someone ported it to FreeBSD.





sidetone said:


> Without a porting process, a port doesn't happen.



This mistreats the opening poster as if they were a clueless subordinate. It's inflammatory.



astyle said:


> clueless subordinate





sidetone said:


> Telling people the unwatch button exists? What's that?



Don't feign confusion.

Your psychological expertise and textual analysis skills should have triggered a sense of you being mistreated _as if_ *you're clueless*.

There.

Now.

How do *you* feel? Mistreated? Inflamed?


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## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

Um no. This is 100% fact. Again.


sidetone said:


> Considering how something gets ported has everything to do with how something gets ported, telling lots of people, I didn't ask how it gets ported is disrespectful.


I can't speak for astyle 's quote, but it was self-explanatory he was describing someone's behavior.



grahamperrin said:


> Your psychological expertise and textual analysis skills should have triggered a sense of you being mistreated _as if_ *you're clueless*.


So, you admit you're being a jerk. If that hadn't happened, I could say, you're a jerk, and you would deny as the next person.

BTW, it wasn't confusion. I was hinting on out how asinine it was.


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

> admit you're being a jerk.



Will you?

Recalling past conversations with Zirias: 



grahamperrin said:


> please don't put words in my mouth.





grahamperrin said:


> Again: *stop putting words in my mouth*. If you must go round in circles and read between the lines, please be correct about what's between.



Now:



Zirias said:


> you're the one twisting words here. No surprise to me of course.



Hello. Any other pots?


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## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

What does that have to do with this? That was his perception that he thought you were making an assumption. I didn't see someone saying, that you said some words. It looked to me like one person wanted to see results, and expecting someone else to keep pace with an expectation.

I argued with him before, but I didn't hold onto a grudge. I've said what I thought another time, and that was it.

I'm irritated at this thread. Again, telling someone about the porting process isn't disrespectful, that has to do with how it gets ported. Telling everyone, "I didn't ask how it gets ported," but you want it ported.


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

sidetone said:


> I'm irritated at this thread.



This is far from FreeBSD Forums at its best. 

sidetone please consider the possibility that some of what you write is objectionable, adding to the irritation. The greater the irritation, the greater the likelihood of you receiving asinine responses. 



astyle said:


> … we keep beating this horse. …



There's an occasionally ugly side to FreeBSD Forums, with an occasionally self-congratulatory attitude from the minority who create or exacerbate the ugliness. 

We have an opportunity to address a troublesome set of behaviours, and I'm in no mood to be delicate with indelicate troublemakers who find shared amusement in the end result. 

These troubles are off-topic from expressions of interest in Swift 5.5 for FreeBSD, but I'll not be blamed for the early derailing of this topic. Here we are.


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## sidetone (Oct 2, 2021)

I've repeatedly clearly said what the problem is, and you keep defending it. And this drama got dragged out.

When someone mentions a program on FreeBSD, in order to use it, it must be ported. That's what they want, for it to be ported. When the topic of porting comes up, I think, "how would it get ported." Getting the continued response, "I didn't ask how it would get ported," is annoying. Or saying, is there a reason, why it's no longer ported, then saying, I didn't ask about why it's not there anymore. It would require a porter. If the person wants Apple to exclusively port it, and doesn't care about the porting process, then Apple would be the place to ask. If you ask here, it means the porting process, and a volunteer. And with that attitude, why should anyone do anything for someone who doesn't respect the porting process. They may anyway, but oh well.

Could a thread occur without this?


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 2, 2021)

sidetone said:


> I've repeatedly clearly said what the problem is,



Your contribution to this topic began with what I saw as an unnecessary mis-characterisation and ignorance of the opening post.

You continue to mis-characterise.

Such things are problematic.



> … this drama …



– which you dramatised, when, instead, you could have done something better.

If you don't want drama, don't add to it.


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## intini (Oct 2, 2021)

I am new here. I apologise if I said something wrong that made matters worse. I love FreeBSD and I love Swift too. I replied to the OP with my honest wish that Swift would get ported and I went to the links he provided only because I truly want it ported. I didn't feel forced to do it at all nor did I feel being bossed around whatsoever.  But reading on the thread I understood that we (as in the FreeBSD comunity) can also participate and work for this wish to materialize. I even thought how I could help. But I have to be honest I was afraid to reply anymore as I didn't understand why there was so much fight going on and I was scared to make things even worse by saying anything else. Please, don't fight. We all love FreeBSD. Maybe we can all start over and understand each other and work towards the common goal of seing this beautiful operating system thrive - maybe with a nicely maintained Swift 
Thank you all for keeping this amazing project.


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## majortom (Oct 2, 2021)

intini said:


> Answering the OP question: Yes! I would love to see Swift ported and maintained on FreeBSD. I like the language very much and it would be wonderful to see it running on our favorite OS. Of course, it would be even greater to see also some sort of GUI library for it.
> I went to GitHub and asked there too.


If you have not yet seen it, Swift by Sundell is a great site for learning about Swift, as is TheSwiftDev.com. John Sundell has a great Swift Static Site generator that is really easy to use, while in contrast, Tibor ( the author from TheSwiftDev) has been developing _Feather_, a Swift-based CMS. Check them both out on Github (both have lots of interesting repos).


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## intini (Oct 4, 2021)

majortom said:


> If you have not yet seen it, Swift by Sundell is a great site for learning about Swift, as is TheSwiftDev.com. John Sundell has a great Swift Static Site generator that is really easy to use, while in contrast, Tibor ( the author from TheSwiftDev) has been developing _Feather_, a Swift-based CMS. Check them both out on Github (both have lots of interesting repos).


Thank you! I will check it out indeed!


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## DaBrooklyner (Oct 7, 2021)

Followed the link and made a post, will see what (if anything comes of it).

It is probably worth stating that I did not feel pressured in the least. Maybe we New Yorkers are just thick skinned, but I found the original posts on this thread and the infighting that followed rather amusing.


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## jimc99999 (Dec 1, 2021)

I came across this thread while checking to see if there's been any updates on Swift support on FreeBSD, since I prefer setting up FreeBSD over Linux. It's nice to see there's some progress and I added a vote of support on the swift forums post regarding FreeBSD support.


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## zoujiaqing (Feb 25, 2022)

Swift on OpenBSD ported​








						swift/OpenBSD.md at main · apple/swift
					

The Swift Programming Language. Contribute to apple/swift development by creating an account on GitHub.




					github.com


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## Jose (Mar 1, 2022)

zoujiaqing said:


> Swift on OpenBSD ported​
> 
> 
> 
> ...




```
$ doas pkg_add bash cmake e2fsprogs git icu4c ninja py-six python3
...
$ doas ln -s /usr/local/bin/python2.7 ~/bin/python
```


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