# My Amazon rant



## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2018)

It was nice to see I am not the only one who thinks poorly of Bezos.
Several walkouts today and I spotted this in an article:


> "What we’re saying is Jeff Bezos, you’re the richest man in the world, you have the wealth and ability to make sure your workers are treated with respect and dignity," Rix said. "You as the wealthiest man in the world would prefer to spend your wealth on space travel rather than on the people who create your wealth.



Note: I moved some threads of mine to this thread. I didn't want to impose on another technical minded thread.


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## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2018)

How about this stark truth:

In my hometown the police + IP lawyers do SWAT raids on poor little Pakistani convenient markets.
The are SWAT RAIDED for counterfeit products like NFL caps. Splashed on the news like real criminals.

Now compare that with the treatment of Amazon fake products.
No splashy SWAT raids for them. Warehouses in every state containing counterfit product.
Amazon seems to have a free pass to sell anything counterfeit they like.

What about the sales tax exemption. It all came about by small mom and pop catalog firms, Like Lillian Vernon.
Now we have a major counterfeiter shuttering many local businesses and our state sales taxes really are taking a hit.
Totally unfair.

https://www.retaildive.com/news/app...s-listed-as-notorious-counterfeit-mar/538731/
https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/31/fulfilled-by-amazon-counterfeit-fake/
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/amazon-may-have-a-counterfeit-problem/558482/


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## Crivens (Nov 24, 2018)

You will not find someone filthy rich or powerful who is not, in some part, a psychopath or worse. They had to reach their position somehow or at least stay there for the time being. So nothing to be surprised about.


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## fernandel (Nov 24, 2018)

My questions are: Are rich people buying on Amazon? Are rich people loosing money? Why local people don't support local businesses?


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## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2018)

Yes but look back at the history of Anti-Trust in the US.
We broke up Standard Oil because they got too big.
Now we have a monopolist trying to corner many markets and you can forget any regulatory worries.
In only 100 years time our whole business regulation system has been corrupted.

My state bribed Amazon $1 Billion+ dollars in incentives to locate half their HQ2 here.
Really shady deal that must be kept secret.

Yes Virginia, this is still America. Bribes and secret deals. That is what 2018 looks like.
To think we talk about corrupt regimes like we are holier than thou. Business as normal here in hypocritical America.
Cloaked in the esteemed "economic development" vehicle.
They are literally going to take money from the poor to give to the richest man in America.
Giving a "subsidy" of $22,000 per job of the taxpayers money in a secret deal. Quite literally corporate welfare.

God forbid Amazon has to answer to someone. No FOIA for you. We will squash you.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/38396/virginia-wooed-amazon-state-incredibly-absurd-ashe-schow
Sorry -very partisan site here- The full details are not widely being reported.


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## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2018)

Reading about Amazon and Anti-Trust
https://phys.org/news/2017-07-antitrust-crackdown-amazon.html

This line of argument baffles me:


> "It's not an antitrust violation just to be dominant. You have to perpetuate or attain your dominance through anticompetitive means," said Daniel Crane, a professor at the University of Michigan Law School specializing in antitrust.


I think the first 3 articles I posted above prove that.
They are being anti-competitive by allowing fakes (or third party sales if you will), that drive out legitimate sellers selling REAL products. One article said GAO investigation found that 43% of the products are fake there. What more needs to be said.
Send in the SWAT team.


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## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2018)

fernandel said:


> Why local people don't support local businesses?


That could be a whole rant in itself.

That one starts in the 1950's when we mastered mass production of high quality goods.
Joe McCarthy was holding hearings on Un-American activities like being left leaning or worse yet, Communist.

Fast forward to today and we import a large quantity of our goods from Communist China.
They are also a large holder of our national debt.
McCarthy is spinning in his grave.

"Why" though was the question. I guess it is because we are cheap.
We would rather have a cheap China-Made plastic chair then a quality wooden chair that is locally produced.
Loss of values is what I would call it. Rome didn't fall in a day. Many small cuts.


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## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2018)

My whole field of machining and repairing goods is also going away. Not totally but more in some areas than others.
Why pay to repair a part when you can buy a new one for not much more.
So to amend my answer.
"Why" - It is our disposable society which values low cost over quality.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Nov 24, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> Why pay to repair a part when you can buy a new one for not much more.
> So to amend my answer.
> "Why" - It is our disposable society which values low cost over quality.



I've never done business on Amazon. They want me to jump through too many hoops to buy from them and prefer ebay.

I go for quality and if I can get it cheap so much the better. I love a good deal. New and shiny things don't necessarily attract my attention but if you can get a new one for the price of a repair, I can see the logic in that.

I bought my Pioneer SA-520 amp in the early 1980's, my Optimus Equalizer in the mid 90's and got my Jensen Model 4 speakers as a present for my 15th birthday. The only computer of the 9 I own that I bought new is my Sony from 2007 and they're all from that timeline. So if something works the way I like it, it's probably still good enough for me.


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## scottro (Nov 24, 2018)

I remember a friend saying, Amazon's evil but they're just so convenient, which is true.  I'm pretty old, and I remember Staples wiping out all the small business office supply store, Barnes and Noble wiping out the small booksellers, and so on. Now, Amazon is doing to them what they did to their competitors.  Though I don't think any of them were as evil to their own employees as Amazon, although Walmart seems just as bad.  Like Crivens said, to reach that level of wealth you have to be a bit of a psychopath. Gates seems to be trying to make up for some of his evil now with his philanthropy, maybe Bezos will as well one day.


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## getopt (Nov 24, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> Joe McCarthy was holding hearings on Un-American activities like being left leaning or worse yet, Communist.
> 
> Fast forward to today and we import a large quantity of our goods from Communist China.
> They are also a large holder of our national debt.
> ...


Phishfry
Getting applause from the wrong side is sheer mockery. So trying to prevent you becoming a laughing stock I'd like to know what made you referring to "Joe"  McCarthy and whether he is spinning in his grave?

So why does it even need to think about McCarthy. Why?


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## Sevendogsbsd (Nov 24, 2018)

Well put  scottro - I've never liked Walmart but the fact is people will shop there to save $. You can take a stand and say "I am not going to shop at Walmart, Amazon, etc", and if you can buy elsewhere and afford it, fine, but many people are not going to spend extra $ to make a statement. I for one am a huge Amazon shopper, for convenience mainly, although I do compare prices before I buy. I work at home and am a bit of a hermit (read that as lazy and hate shopping), so having everything delivered to my door is perfect for me.

I support small businesses whenever possible and always shop around first - big conglomerates are certainly taking over the retail market but that's the way capitalism works, good or bad.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Nov 24, 2018)

I wasn't going to mention Walmart but I don't care for them either. They ran Krogers and the other stores I used to shop at out of town. Even K-Mart and their bawdy Blue Light Specials couldn't compete with the stupendous StuporStore in selection or savings.

I live within walking distance from a discount grocery store where they have a butcher on the premises and a dollar type store where I can go for other stuff. It's not bad if you know what to look for. 

Sometimes it's a necessary evil to make the trip to WallyWorld and I try to go in the middle of the night when it's least busy. Now you can check yourself out (how convenient of them) so I can usually make the trip without interaction on a personal level from frenzied shoppers or staff. 

And hopefully not encounter an egregious ex-wife.


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## Birdy (Nov 24, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> Reading about Amazon and Anti-Trust
> https://phys.org/news/2017-07-antitrust-crackdown-amazon.html



Take two: Jeff Bezos and All He Owns Must Be Destroyed.


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## fernandel (Nov 24, 2018)

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-asked-police-in-spain-to-intervene-warehouse-strike-2018-11

The Spain should kick out Amazon. They must do as local law ask for. They are in foreign country!
The best should be they all quit the job.


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## Crivens (Nov 24, 2018)

Phishfry, today china is about as communist as todays US (and most other western states for that matter) are free or democratic.

And the Gates foundation, hell bent to save africa (applause from me here) has heavily invested in oil companies poisioning the niger delta and bringing much suffering over small folks there. Booo. It's not all easy or bad/good.


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## ronaldlees (Nov 24, 2018)

scottro said:


> I remember a friend saying, Amazon's evil but they're just so convenient, which is true.  I'm pretty old, and I remember Staples wiping out all the small business office supply store, Barnes and Noble wiping out the small booksellers, and so on. Now, Amazon is doing to them what they did to their competitors.



Yeah - what comes around goes around.   But, the tendency of capitalism is for one entity to eventually own everything.  What always happens when you play monopoly? At the end of the game, you know who's going to win, and it isn't much fun anymore (unless you're the winner).   There is a certain tripping point, at which time capitalism hits the end-game phase that is in the experience of every schoolkid monopoly player.  Communism isn't the answer, but at the extremes of capitalism it isn't much different.  

The problem is that one company can get so much bigger and better than other companies simply by having too much capital advantage.  So, the barrier to entry, or the barrier to staying alive, is pushed up to a level where all the other players cannot compete.  This is why our laws are lacking.  Simply being too much bigger than others is an "anti competitive" factor.  But, the law currently doesn't accept that very obvious fact.  Maybe the people who make the laws should get together with their legislative chums and play some monopoly.


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## yuripv (Nov 24, 2018)

Crivens said:


> Phishfry, today china is about as communist as todays US (and most other western states for that matter) are free or democratic.



Don't really care about amazon, but this made me smile.  I always find amusing the hypocrisy of "free and democratic" western countries being just as bad as the regimes they are set to struggle against (China and Russia being the "evil empires").


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## Deleted member 30996 (Nov 24, 2018)

yuripv said:


> ...(China and Russia being the "evil empires").


The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!

ILUXA has been kind enough to translate the Cyrillic on my Soviet Era Russian watches for me. I'll have to make a page someday to show them. The Russian Federation is the 2nd largest visitor to my site.


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## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2018)

getopt said:


> So why does it even need to think about McCarthy. Why?


Those that ignore history are bound to repeat it.
The reason I used that topic is to show how extreme my country can be. In only 70 years we went from Communist witch-hunt to the extreme of a Communist country buying our debt and supplying most all our retail goods.
In only 70 years we flip-flopped from one extreme to another.

The same reason I used Standard Oil. They were not the first big breakup, but in my mind it was not really needed.
Rockefeller was not hurt in the long run. He reconstituted into Esso and ExxonMobil is still a major player.
Xerox breakup in 1980 was one of the last big Anti-Trust actions. So perhaps for 40 years since we have acted on the problem would be more accurate. Once again I was contrasting the extremes.

Think about AIG being too big to fail compared to Standard Oil case.
The fact that we allowed these mega-banks to become too big to fail is a scathing indictment on the lack of anti-trust enforcement.
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/the-good-reasons-why-lehman-failed/


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## Crivens (Nov 25, 2018)

The big question is why there is only one office of anti-trust and monopoly control


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## scottro (Nov 25, 2018)

In the US, at least, the rich make the laws, and only rarely is there a president or other politician, with enough power and/or charisma and inclination to actually try to help those they're supposed to help.  (Such as Teddy Roosevelt, who, while not perfect, was pretty awesome.)


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## Crivens (Nov 25, 2018)

This is what   happens, around the world.


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## Sevendogsbsd (Nov 25, 2018)

scottro said:


> In the US, at least, the rich make the laws, and only rarely is there a president or other politician, with enough power and/or charisma and inclination to actually try to help those they're supposed to help.  (Such as Teddy Roosevelt, who, while not perfect, was pretty awesome.)



Not to mention big business, who are by definition, rich . Big business has an incredible amount of influence in the US government.


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## Birdy (Nov 25, 2018)

Crivens said:


> The big question is why there is only one office of anti-trust and monopoly control



George Carlin: It's a big club, and you ain't in it!

Things currently heating up in France though.


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## Crivens (Nov 25, 2018)

More power to them.

One difference between france and germany: when the order is given for all males to be at the town hall on sunday to have their balls cut off to fight rape, 90% of germans would be at the town hall. In france, 90% of the town halls would mysterialy burn down...

(Maybe I'd also show up there, but I'd be kinda clanking when I walk)


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## boris_net (Nov 25, 2018)

Birdy said:


> Things currently heating up in France though.



Well not really - it is currently just warming up with a tiny percentage of the population trying something. What the most obvious has been to me though is the way medias cover the topic - it is not even funny how much it is just propaganda for the government in place to keep the country in check...

It is very much "nothing significant to report, we are going to continue our reforms, Sincerely, Your Gov".

Those reforms have been presented at the election in 2017 as "give more to the richs so that it will go back to the masses" - 24% voted for that on the first round of the presidential elections while there were 4 major candidates, the remaining three scoring respectively 21.30% (extreme right), 20.01% (right) and 19.58% (extreme left).
What a divided nation...


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## fernandel (Nov 25, 2018)

boris_net said:


> Well not really - it is currently just warming up with a tiny percentage of the population trying something. What the most obvious has been to me though is the way medias cover the topic - it is not even funny how much it is just propaganda for the government in place to keep the country in check...
> 
> It is very much "nothing significant to report, we are going to continue our reforms, Sincerely, Your Gov".
> 
> ...



France changed as all the world which start boiling...


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## sidetone (Nov 25, 2018)

I read an article that said the richs' programs for social equality are token at best. They want to keep the system that makes it difficult for the average person, so that they can remain at the top. I think of these programs as a facade, or maybe tax cuts for donating to their own (often meaningless) non-profits.

One example was a bank's program to help those with housing. It pointed out, maybe the banks should stop having a system that exploits homeowners financially causing the largest banking crisis and housing crisis. Then this program that barely helps people wouldn't be needed.

I like what Bezos does for news enlightenment, but I don't like how he conducts business. Amazon monitors _every second_, literally, of a worker's productivity, which is excessive, and it causes injured workers who are not compensated appropriately. There is no way good workers can be in the zone with this kind of treatment, where they cannot even talk to coworkers for a few seconds at a time while working. This is terrible for morale. With this type of monitoring, Amazon's workers are treated as disposable. This also sets a bad precedent.

There's irony in how Bill Gates ripped off competitors and workers to be at the top, then he has one programs for giving back financially one the most to society. I saw Steve Jobs as some kind of obnoxious loudmouth psychopath. Bill Gate's abuse had less to do with his temper, and more to do with exploitation of workers, partners and competitors.

It's better to call them out on specifics, despite if they otherwise do good for society, which is often meaningless.



fernandel said:


> Why local people don't support local businesses?


 This question has a lot to do with Walmart.


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## ralphbsz (Nov 26, 2018)

fernandel said:


> My questions are: Are rich people buying on Amazon?


Because it's cheap and convenient.  Latest example: I needed some garden stuff (a 4L = 1 gallon jug of herbicide, we needed to remove tall weeds for fire protection, and poisoning the plants first before mowing them prevents the roots from re-sprouting).  Before jumping in the car, I checked the web sites for local big-box stores (Lowe's and Home Depot).  Both in theory carried the herbicide, for $23 each.  Neither of them had it in stock, not even by driving an extra hour (and driving 1.5 hours each way for a $23 jug of herbicide is insane).  They had another brand though which cost over $50 for the same quantity.  My wife quickly checked at the local small hardware/garden store: yes, they carried it, but it was about $100 for the same quantity (they only sell it in small bottles).  In contrast, Amazon had it in stock, for the same $23 as the big-box stores, and with free shipping.  So instead of having to drive 10 or 20 minutes to get to a local store (or 1.5 hours to get to one that actually has it in stock, or stopping at several small stores to get many small bottles), I didn't have to waste any time, and it showed up at my house two days later.  And I didn't pay any extra for the convenience.



> Why local people don't support local businesses?


Sure, we could all do that.  By buying at a place that is expensive and inconvenient, you are wasting your own time (lots of extra driving), and you are throwing money away.  In effect, that amounts to making a donation to the local store.  So here is a more efficient and simpler suggestion: Order your stuff from Amazon.  Then go to the local business and hand them a $100 bill as a donation ... just so they stay "in business", which means not selling anything to anyone.

By the way, just to be clear: There are many items for which local businesses work much better than Amazon.  For example fresh food; clothes that need to be tried on; items where one needs personal advice and consultation; heavy and bulky items (buying a metric ton of gravel from Amazon is stupid, but that's something I go buy in my pickup truck); emergency or urgent supplies (like plumbing parts to fix a leak); service items (like a music store that also repairs instruments); and items that one needs to examine in person to figure out what they are.  There is also the question of local retail as an "experience": some people enjoy shopping, and go to stores to have fun.  But from an efficiency, cost and convenience point of view, using local businesses as a distribution / logistics mechanism is an idea whose time has come and gone.

P.S. What I forgot to mention: Before ordering anything from Amazon, I always look for other online sources; if I find the same thing elsewhere at the same price or a better price, Amazon is always my last choice.  Because it has become so big that it is nearly a monopoly, and I'd prefer it to be less of a monopoly.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 26, 2018)

John Naisbitt wrote a few books titled "Megatrends". These were not predictions but trends he would report on by reading hundreds or thousands of newspapers from around the world. By doing so, he stated--not predicted--that automobiles would be made and shipped to the USA, or built in the USA from parts made around the world, about 20 years before when everything was still made in Detroit. One of his last books talked about "high tech, high touch". This was before 2000. He said people would be ordering products online and have them shipped to their door or a local store. The problem with that was that people would still want to be able to see and touch what they were ordering beforehand. I don't recall if he stated a solution but I do think he said this is why brick and mortar stores will never go away. It gives the customer the chance to see and touch in person a product ahead of time to make sure it's what they're comfortable with. Of course, the issue with that is when you want it now and can't wait.

Another advantage of ordering online is the reduction of pollution. Rather than some number of people driving around town searching for a product, you just find it online and only one truck drives around town delivering all of them. Returns are what bothers me, though. I haven't gotten myself into the habit of ordering everything online, like clothes, because I don't want to have to pay for return shipping. I don't know where that stands at the moment. I once asked my wife but don't remember what she said.

The absolutely coolest experience I have ever had was renting a suit for my son's wedding. What kind of company sends you a thousand dollar suit for free to try the service with free return? Then, when you email a question about an adjustment on an early Sunday morning, calls you back within an hour to talk about it and offers to pay for you to take it to a local tailor.


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## getopt (Nov 26, 2018)

Crivens said:


> More power to them.
> 
> 
> One difference between france and germany: when the order is given for all males to be at the town hall on sunday to have their balls cut off to fight rape, 90% of germans would be at the town hall. In france, 90% of the town halls would mysterialy burn down...
> ...



There is no bottom for stupidity. And this is no more joke when a moderator is leaving necessary skills behind.

I could of course make biting jokes too about what is called "American Dream" and the broad absence of intellectual resources in contemporary populism, but I prefer not to.

Moderators *should* show exemplary behavior in writing, at least at some minimum standards. With all respects, you are failing here. Moderate yourself.

Crivens you are fueling a discussion with resentments on German and French people. Here on the FreeBSD forums there should be no place for dumb jokes on cutting balls and burning down town halls. In France two people died in what you want more power to them.

The FreeBSD forums is shared by people with a great variety of nationalities. We should not make dumb jokes here on the cost of any nationality.

Language is the most valuable asset we share. Do not let it deteriorate here. The FreeBSD should be kept free from violent, hatred and racist speech.


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## aht0 (Nov 26, 2018)

Crivens said:


> You will not find someone filthy rich or powerful who is not, in some part, a psychopath or worse. They had to reach their position somehow or at least stay there for the time being. So nothing to be surprised about.


Most people are said to be psychopaths to a degree. Some are just tad more. Psychopaths also are not entirely lacking empathy, it's usually sort of "off/on-switchable" at will. To give you rough example: you happen to be reading/hearing off some disaster somewhere, where bunch of people have died. You do think: "horrible" but not without really meaning it. Only when you focus yourself on them and try to imagine what any of the individuals had to feel - you start imagining the horror involved. For psychopaths that threshold of sensitivity is even further off. You can usually feel empathy towards people around you, they would have more trouble with it.


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## scottro (Nov 26, 2018)

I used to try, when I had more money, to make at least one big purchase a year at BestBuy or J&R (which closed but should reopen) just to try to contribute to brick and mortar stores. Living in Manhattan, I am fortunate in that I can often see a product before buying. Both of them (BestBuy and J&R) would usually price match--yes, BestBuy is overpriced as a rule and their geek squad has done things like report what was on the hard drive to the police, but still, it is a place where I can go and look at something before buying.  

Someone mentioned B&H, they also have a store not too far from me and they have always been very nice. Once they let me try out a USB to wireless adapter on a FreeBSD laptop I had because it was a situation where two models with the same part number, depending on chip set would work or not work. 

But, much as Amazon is evil, it does look out for customers. I was trying to find a a Japanese version of a stupid anime.  They had it on video but also had a DVD disk. I knew the DVD had both Japanese and English. I asked their customer service if the online rentable version had a Japanese audio.  It didn't so the customer service rep gave me a credit for the cost of the DVD.  (Which was relatively cheap, about 10 bucks).  

So, yes, I do look for alternatives but I still buy from them.   By the way, from what I hear from tech friends who work there, as a tech employee, it's apparently much better than it is for those described in the various articles, both warehouse and white collar workers.  Not that makes them less evil but seems worth mentioning.


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## sidetone (Nov 26, 2018)

It's not difficult to avoid Walmart. There are a few chains with lower prices. Some have their own name brands, which go from ok to great. Those small variety budget (mini-department like) stores have put a few Walmart locations of business.

Amazon is a little more difficult to boycott when it comes to older but more specialized replacement products. There are products that you can get from Frys, Microcenter, Target, Costco or Sears. I don't understand why for some, if its so easy to boycott Target (which I don't agree with the poor judgement that company made at one time), why it's difficult to boycott Walmart. There are even a few localized electronics stores, some owned by other chains. For books, if you haven't been disappointed by Barnes and Nobles' customer service, I often order from the book publishers.

I would still pay more to buy from stores that are more expensive than Walmart. Luckily, Walmart's costs are slightly higher than that of other stores. I'm aware of Amazon's practices, and I haven't bought from them in a while.


scottro said:


> But, much as Amazon is evil, it does look out for customers.


 That's because it's their business model how they make their money off of customers. Their workers are disposable, their customers aren't. If Walmart has proven similar to local economies, Amazon can take it up another step. Amazon can afford to lose customers who were once former employees, because they will have accounted for a small fraction of the population. Amazon can really crank it up, and people will still buy from them, because it was manifested by Walmart. Seeing how they easily boycotted Target, it shows *selective outrage*. Boycotting them is fine by me, but if you can easily do that, then why not boycott Walmart too. Those who buy from there shouldn't complain about their jobs going overseas, when they wanted to save a few dollars in the short term. About 40% of people don't buy from Walmart, more people will shop at Amazon, no matter what hits the news on their employment practices, until a formidable competitor comes along.

Some of those mom and pop hardware stores are annoying. They provide customer service, and sometimes that's convenient, but it's annoying when they try to make small talk or make jokes. Their prices are marked up for this.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Nov 26, 2018)

With ebay I get to buy from real people, can do business all over the world, choose the person I want to deal with by looking at their feedback from previous sales, deal with them personally if need be or have ebay back me if a sale goes bad and still get the convenience of home delivery. They own PayPal too so it's an easy purchase. Sometime easier and more palatable than going to Walmart if I can have it in 3 days.

Out of approx. 200 transactions 2 didn't go as smoothly as I would have liked, only one of which did I report because they were selling an HDD caddy that didn't fit and needed to contact their country "Ministry of Finance" for prior authorization to issuing my $7 refund.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 26, 2018)

sidetone said:


> It's not difficult to avoid Walmart. There are a few chains with lower prices.


I always feel dirty going in there. Embarrassed I might be seen by someone I know. That said, I was looking for something a while back and didn't want to spend any money. Walmart was the only place that had it cheap. When I was there, I walked past Electronics and saw some cables I also wanted to get cheap. I was astounded they even carried them.


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## sidetone (Nov 26, 2018)

The only justifications I can come up with for going to that store is if I need something late or at 2 am in the morning, like boots before work at 3 am, to needed items, to trivial stuff, which for me is rare, because I can usually wait a few hours, or an emergency item like a car battery within walking distance. As long as someone tries to go elsewhere first, that's usually enough, IMO. I was just venting, that's everyone's choice what they want to do, I just wish they realized the store doesn't represent what they say they support.

Some Walmarts are closed past midnight, others the gardening center closes after midnight. Because of this, they aren't a choice for me late at night.

Back to the topic, Amazon will do a lot that many don't like, and will have the ability to remain in business, for example like some of its predecessors have.


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## ronaldlees (Nov 28, 2018)

The US was founded on the sky-is-the-limit, pie in the sky, rationale for living.  Seemed good at the time, because there were no large multinational corporations.  In 1928, just before the crash, there were still over a hundred different automobile brands.  Now, that's competition!  But, in a few hundred years, we have changed into a country where every single industry is dominated by one or a few players.  Automobiles are easy example.  At the level of three players, the small number of juggernaut companies can collude with a wink, and no paper trail is necessary.  They can set prices as they like.  So, that's how the top 1 percent have > 50 percent of everything.

It may seem draconian to some, but I think there should be an upper limit to how big a company can get.  Once the big three entities in any particular field are entrenched, there is no longer any competition, really.  We need the 124 car companies of 1928 again.  Not three.  The only real competition came from a few Asian countries (with devastating effect).  The reason the US counterparts stagnated is that they had no real competition until then.   Nobody needed to innovate.

Amazon isn't intentionally doing anything bad.  They just got really good at internet marketing.  But, they're so big and so good at it, that they make the barrier to entry like a cliff scale against machine guns.  Impossible.  Only the early entrants in such a game win.  So, Ebay was early (not as early as Amazon) - and they are still operating.  The answer I don't have is "how to scale them back".  It will seem to be against the sky-is-the-limit philosophy.  Unfortunately, the sky is the limit only for a few.


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## sidetone (Nov 28, 2018)

The way it works is, a few companies of each category or niche will rise to the top, by luck, skill, hard work or ruthlessness, unless the markets are limited to geographic location. The markets are so that everyone wants what they think is one of the best of a particular niche, and eventually other companies don't sell as well. If there are 100 niches or micro-niches for each category, then it's possible for all of those companies to do well. The more competition there is, the lower the profit margins are. When it gets to the point, big companies are changing laws for their benefit at the disposal of the people and other businesses, and are getting tax shelters is where it gets ridiculous.

Generic medicine (especially where the patent expired) is cheap to manufacture, but it can be marked up from $3 to $1,000. When another company decides to sell that medicine for $500, the other one undercuts them by half, until finally, the prices are less than $20. Then the company that tried to create competition cannot make a profit selling that medicine for $4, while the other company takes the losses to run the competitor out of business. It doesn't work very well, because the competitor spent millions on research and getting approved by the FDA, only for the company that profited from the high prices to lower their prices to accept temporary losses to run the company that invested big out of business. If a non-profit or organization whose goal is to treat people steps in, then prices have the potential to become reasonable. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-01-19/why-hospitals-aren-t-in-the-drug-business

The only _few_ who I've noticed that wasn't evil is Elon Musk, but he is eccentric and he does or says things that make him the target of criticism. He easily gets misunderstood. The owner of Borders was successful but was passive about competition (he let Amazon take care of his online book sales), so his company went under.


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## ronaldlees (Nov 28, 2018)

Musk goes up against the big three, who are (understandably) upset about looking like luddite tech companies.  Result?  Attack from all corners: unions, state governments, Fed SEC, music biz people, environmental groups ... you name it.  The reason such innovation as Musk delivers hasn't happened before is that 1) no "eccentric" willing to do it.  2) Most non-neo rich people know they will be rowing upstream against the "system".  Notice how all the new stuff is from the neo rich, from people like Musk and Bezos.  The others "know their place," so as to not be trampled.  In a rigged game, the riggers demand true attention to the rules, because it's the rules that have been rigged.

Speaking of innovation, it shouldn't be pointed in the direction that it currently is, by any company.  The focus needs to be innovation with the survival of the planet in mind.  Don't see it happening, but the neo-rich are more inclined to lean that way.


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## hrsetrdr (Nov 28, 2018)

Crivens said:


> You will not find someone filthy rich or powerful who is not, in some part, a psychopath or worse. They had to reach their position somehow or at least stay there for the time being. So nothing to be surprised about.



Most often the the route to material acquisition is traveled on the necks of the many.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 29, 2018)

It should be pointed out that there are anti-competitive measures in place to break up companies that get too large and block competition. It happened to ATT, one of the car companies(?), and almost happened to Microsoft. The main problem is when one wants to compete with a dominant company that has done no harm. That is, a company that may own 90% of the market but is a good corporate citizen and does nothing to block others from entering the market. To say, no, you can't get bigger, means that company has no incentives for investment and hiring. It's anti-capitalism. 

Of course, when one gets that big, it's easy to to think everything you do is for the good no matter what anyone else says and that's when they get themselves into trouble.


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## Crivens (Nov 30, 2018)

I have thought long and hard about this.
Should I let this ad hominim slide past?

No. It would be a bad example.

First, you may be under the wrong assumption that I am from the US. I am not, and I was making a joke including me, because you see, I am also a German citizen. But I don't trust my government. And neither should anyone.

Second, I find your call for censorship ... interesting. GG Art 5 section 1 applies. Should I have misread this call for moderation, sorry, I am not a native speaker.

Third, yes, there have been causalities. That is to be expected when you protest on, by blocking it, an access road to a hospital. And then parents with sick children come into the equation, what do you expect? "Would kind Sir/Madam please step aside? I happen to travel with a sick/wounded/cramping child and we find us in a bit of a hurry? Jolly good! Thank you so very much."?

Having done exactly that, I can tell you that blocking such a road can be considered second rate suicide. So no matter how well founded your protest is, the moment you threaten the live of your next person with it, your credibility is void and you will face the law. Threaten the life of children, and you will face irrational and highly motivated parents. I'd prefer the law.

Fourth, language is most important, as you can learn from reading "1984", and that is why I not only oppose  censorship, but also refuse to hand over the definition of meaning over to "well meaning people". You should do the same.

All in all, this has little to do with big box business entities getting away with what they do. So I apologize to the OP for wasting space on this thread. Should anyone have a problem with what I wrote, there is the PM option on the message and also a handy 'Report' button.



getopt said:


> There is no bottom for stupidity. And this is no more joke when a moderator is leaving necessary skills behind.
> ...


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## getopt (Nov 30, 2018)

Crivens, your rebuke shows your lack of knowledge on the FreeBSD Forum Rule 3 or willingness to apply it:



> The FreeBSD forums aim to build and maintain a friendly and co-operative user community. As such, you agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, *political,* religious, threatening, sexually-orientated or otherwise divisive or combative material, or anything that may violate any applicable laws. _Such posts will be removed without any warning and attempts to introduce material of this nature can lead to an infraction or you being temporarily or permanently banned from these forums._



As being moderator you not only missed to apply the rule prior to your post, but you joined in fueling politics instead of acting according to the rules.

I doubt your skills as a moderator because you obviously have a misunderstanding of censorship and free speech on the FreeBSD Forums. Here, like on any forums that have binding rules, the forum rules precede free speech as free speech includes all above what is banned by rule.

For this reason I call on reviewing this thread by other moderators.


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## DutchDaemon (Nov 30, 2018)

Yeah, that was fun. Mind the squirrel when you back out of the driveway, everyone. Reddit Ave. is third on the left.


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