# The 15-Minute Bug Initiative (KDE)



## CuatroTorres (Jan 24, 2022)

What no one dared to say about KDE:









						The 15-Minute Bug Initiative
					

In my 2022 roadmap, I mentioned something called the “15-Minute Bug Initiative.” Today I’d like to flesh it out and request participation! This blog post is not only informational…




					pointieststick.com


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## Jose (Jan 25, 2022)

Wow that's depressing! How many bugs are triggered in the 16th minute? I haven't used KDE in more than a decade, and that piece makes me thing I can wait another before trying it again.


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## zirias@ (Jan 25, 2022)

It's just someone trying to improve KDE quality, and that's a good thing. But I think it gives a wrong impression. KDE already is a great desktop, and I have the impression it works better on FreeBSD than some other desktops (well, especially GNOME....)

Although I don't use it myself much (I prefer my "desktop" around fvwm3 with a few extra tools), I installed it on my mother's notebook after the bundled OEM Win7 went EOL. So, she's now using FreeBSD; easier for me to fix little things remote than with Windows, and she never had a problem related to KDE so far...


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## Menelkir (Jan 25, 2022)

Talking about _improving KDE quality_.








						Ads may be coming to KDE, the popular Linux desktop
					

While it's doubtful you'll see ads in KDE's core applications, it would be possible for distributions that wish to further monetize their work to fork these applications, placing ads in them.




					www.neowin.net


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## CuatroTorres (Jan 25, 2022)

Zirias said:


> It's just someone trying to improve KDE quality, and that's a good thing. But I think it gives a wrong impression. KDE already is a great desktop, and I have the impression it works better on FreeBSD than some other desktops (well, especially GNOME....)


Sure, it's not as buggy as it was years ago, but three things I can think of didn't get much attention:

I am always greeted with a bug in kwin on the first start of a new installation which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The lock screen stays dead until you decide to enter the password blindly, getting into a loop of input and error.
The cycle of entering the root password and applying for each change in the preferences is absurd. A global session is required that lasts until you close the preferences window.


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## zirias@ (Jan 25, 2022)

Menelkir said:


> Talking about _improving KDE quality_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, now _that_'s a classic example for FUD. So Qt adds a feature to their UI framework they _sell_, targeting mobile as well, a feature lots of "shareware" and "freemium" software publishers want, and this article starts talking about KDE, just because it uses the Qt opensource edition.  Well, at best a stupid clickbait.



CuatroTorres said:


> I am always greeted with a bug in kwin on the first start of a new installation which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


I remember having seen kwin crash, but not really often, more like less than 5 times in several years...


CuatroTorres said:


> The lock screen stays dead until you decide to enter the password blindly, getting into a loop of input and error.


Never seen that myself. Would probably make sense to further investigate the conditions for triggering it.


CuatroTorres said:


> The cycle of entering the root password and applying for each change in the preferences is absurd. A global session is required that lasts until you close the preferences window.


Not a bug but a feature request. Would probably be nice, but keep in mind these are separate tools just integrated in a common UI, and only the one tool you currently need runs with elevated privileges. So, what you suggest could be dangerous, there's some potential for security bugs...


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## CuatroTorres (Jan 25, 2022)

It's a compositing issue. In the preferences it shows a warning that OpenGL has caused a KWin crash in the past and is probably due to a driver error. I always got this on my Linux boxes with integrated Nvidia/Intel card. It's not nice even though it's not a real Plasma issue.

On the lock screen, it's displayed but not the username and password input field, which appears a long time later. Mouse, Esc key or spacebar doesn't fully wake up the screen, you must enter the password blindly, press Enter and cross your fingers, or press Enter and wait for a while after the password field with the wrong password message directly.


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## Jose (Jan 25, 2022)

Zirias said:


> Wow, now _that_'s a classic example for FUD. So Qt adds a feature to their UI framework they _sell_, targeting mobile as well, a feature lots of "shareware" and "freemium" software publishers want, and this article starts talking about KDE, just because it uses the Qt opensource edition.  Well, at best a stupid clickbait.


There's no indication that this new feature is restricted to the paid version of Qt. Some corporate flack contributed the following in the comments section:


> Just to make things clear, we are offering the opportunity to startups, *open source users* and commercial Qt users to create new business models monetizing from running ads inside their Qt runtime. We are giving the opportunity to new ideas to come to life, to startupper or *OSS developers* to generate revenues in their early stage, to validate MVPs or absorb some investment costs.











						Monetizing cross-platform use cases faster and easier with Qt Digital Advertising Platform
					

Qt Digital Advertising plugin enables you to manage and run monetization campaigns on your Qt-based application.




					www.qt.io
				



(Emphasis mine)

Looks like ads are coming soon to Qt apps in KDE and any other DE.


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## bsduck (Jan 25, 2022)

Qt allowing ads doesn't mean its users will jump on the possibility. I don't think many free software projects will try that, it would be a sure way to annoy and loose numerous users.


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## Jose (Jan 25, 2022)

bsduck said:


> Qt allowing ads doesn't mean its users will jump on the possibility. I don't think many free software projects will try that, it would be a sure way to annoy and loose numerous users.


Well, we're gonna find out one way or another. I'm pessimistic. There are too many idiot product managers out there intent on "disrupting" things.


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## ct85711 (Jan 25, 2022)

I know I for sure will either downgrade to an older version and/or stop using the software with ads in it (hence why I refuse to touch ubuntu).  Otherwise, I've done enough compiling that I am perfectly comfortable compiling my own software, so I also have the option of ripping the ads out.


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## Jose (Jan 25, 2022)

I feel you, and will likely do the same. However, my experiences with Systemd showed the limits of such resistance. At some point it becomes too much for one person or even a small team to do. Look at the GTK 2->3 fiasco, the MATE desktop, etc. Eventually the large and well-funded organizations will win.

The only way this dies is if there's a large and sudden resistance to these developments. Again, I'm pessimistic. People are getting increasingly accustomed to being bombarded with ads in all aspects of their online lives. I expect young people will come to regard ads as a normal part of using computers.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 25, 2022)

CuatroTorres said:


> What no one dared to say about KDE:



What do you mean? Here's the follow-up:

This week in KDE: You wanted stability? Here’s some stability! – Adventures in Linux and KDE


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## astyle (Jan 25, 2022)

I thought the original topic of this thread was the 15-minute bug initiative, not the blowback over QT's decision to sneak ads into OSS software.
--
For the 15-minute bug initiative:  I think that's a big-time misnomer. You kind of have to be awfully familiar with the project to realize what's a quick fix, and what's not. Applying a verified patch can very well be a 15-minute chore even for a competent programmer. Coming up with a 10-liner that solves a pain point without messing things up elsewhere - think that's easy? A quick-and-dirty fix may turn out to be worse than the problem it solves.
--
QT's decision to sneak ads into OSS software: NO FRIGGING WAY. I really hope KDE stands its ground and keeps its branched copy of QT free of that.


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## zirias@ (Jan 26, 2022)

So, the FUD obviously works, wording like "sneaking in" proves it...

The title of this article doesn't even talk about Qt, but about KDE, which is completely unrelated here. If that's not a clickbaiting fallacy, I don't know ... don't fall for such stupid nonsense.

As for Qt, they don't "sneak in" anything, they offer a new feature. Again, Qt is sold as a product, for example to publishers of (Windows) shareware, or mobile apps. These customers will probably like that feature, so it makes sense.

Trying to force ads on someone using some open-source software running locally is one of the weirder ideas. First thing that would happen is patches removing it again (and they will be quite simple). So, it makes no sense at all.


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## astyle (Jan 26, 2022)

Zirias said:


> First thing that would happen is patches removing it again (and they will be quite simple).


If that's the case, I would think that such a patch should definitely qualify for the 15-minute bug initiative. I want my KDE install to be clean, and ad-free.


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## Beastie7 (Jan 26, 2022)

I wouldn’t mind an ad or two in there that says “USE BSD”.


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## eternal_noob (Jan 26, 2022)

Ads in KDE won't happen. I suggest to come back to the topic.


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## Jose (Jan 26, 2022)

Zirias said:


> So, the FUD obviously works, wording like "sneaking in" proves it...
> 
> The title of this article doesn't even talk about Qt, but about KDE, which is completely unrelated here. If that's not a clickbaiting fallacy, I don't know ... don't fall for such stupid nonsense.


The article I linked is specifically about Qt, and published on the qt.io domain. It contains statements from someone who works at Qt that explicitly state this new feature is aimed at open source developers and projects. What you or I think doesn't matter. The intentions of the developers of Qt are clear and explicitly stated.

There's no FUD or clickbait there.


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## Jose (Jan 26, 2022)

Zirias said:


> Trying to force ads on someone using some open-source software running locally is one of the weirder ideas. First thing that would happen is patches removing it again (and they will be quite simple). So, it makes no sense at all.


Yup. No chance anyone would try this.








						Audacity users stick the knife – and fork – in to strip audio editor of unwanted features
					

New name needed. How about Impudence? Or maybe Pluck?




					www.theregister.com


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## zirias@ (Jan 26, 2022)

Jose, first of all, I wasn't talking about *your* link. Is it that hard to understand the context of a thread? I was talking about a silly nonsense article titled "Ads may be coming to KDE [...]".

Second, the one you cite just adds "OSS developers" as *one* target to a list. It's definitely not the best one, and your emphasis is very misleading.

And finally, your last link just confirms what I said. People will patch it away if someone tries this with open-source software, so it's pretty pointless.


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## D-FENS (Jan 26, 2022)

Jose said:


> Wow that's depressing! How many bugs are triggered in the 16th minute? I haven't used KDE in more than a decade, and that piece makes me thing I can wait another before trying it again.


What DE do yo use? I used Gnome 3 for quite a while but their dialogs started being so unusable that I was forced to switch to KDE and keep my sanity. The latter is not far behind Gnome though, for example - where is the button "Go 1 directory higher" when browsing or selecting something in the dialog? Where can I paste my file system path in the dialog? In general those GUIs are simply impossible to use productively with keyboard only. The scrollbars are tiny and you are lucky if you could succeed dragging the damn things.

I have not been turned off by the bugs in KDE to be honest, but certain parts of its UI design need serious changes.

These products used to be nice and slick, then something changed and they turned our mighty workstations into smartphones with large screens. I hate it.
I wish I had time to reprogram the dialogs once and for all but I am simply too preocupied writing my own junk.


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## Jose (Jan 27, 2022)

Zirias said:


> Jose, first of all, I wasn't talking about *your* link. Is it that hard to understand the context of a thread? I was talking about a silly nonsense article titled "Ads may be coming to KDE [...]".


Does KDE not use Qt apps?


Zirias said:


> Second, the one you cite just adds "OSS developers" as *one* target to a list. It's definitely not the best one, and your emphasis is very misleading.


I see no evidence that Qt expects more or less use from the OSS community. They are targeted just as much as commercial developers.


Zirias said:


> And finally, your last link just confirms what I said. People will patch it away if someone tries this with open-source software, so it's pretty pointless.


Yeah? How many forks of Audacious are there? Do any of them have as many users as Audacious? How about a year from now?

I expect Audacious will follow the same path Plex and Kodi (XBMC) followed after they split.



roccobaroccoSC said:


> What DE do yo use?


I don't. Openbox + terminal is all I need and want. I forced Xfce on my family when I forced Linux on them. It was just ok, and I stopped that a decade ago.


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## zirias@ (Jan 27, 2022)

Jose said:


> Does KDE not use Qt apps?


How is that relevant? Does KDE have to use _every_ feature Qt has to offer?


Jose said:


> I see no evidence that Qt expects more or less use from the OSS community. They are targeted just as much as commercial developers.


This has nothing to do with the target audience of _this specific new feature_. Sure, it _could_ be used on opensource software. But it's much more likely (and, useful) in shareware and similar stuff.


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## astyle (Jan 27, 2022)

Zirias said:


> How is that relevant? Does KDE have to use _every_ feature Qt has to offer?


I don't think that it will be out of question for ads to appear anyway, even if the API for the monetization is not explicitly used. It's a common practice to bake an annoying feature in so hard that it's next to impossible to remove. Does anyone remember Carrier IQ debacle from a few years ago? That one 'feature' was impossible to remove or disable without completely messing up the phone. Definitely not a 15-minute chore to just patch up the phone. I don't want QT to go down the same road. 
--
Carrier IQ was intended for something different, but it shouldn't be that difficult to imagine how advertising networks took advantage of it. Tying it all back to the topic of this thread: Including a "Monetization API" is a move by QT that I really don't like - and I imagine it won't be a simple 15-minute fix to undo the damage.
--
If somebody actually sees a 15-minute fix, I think they should have the opportunity to do it, or publish a solution.


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## zirias@ (Jan 27, 2022)

astyle "difficult to remove" in some mobile OS – you _are_ aware these aren't open-source? It's an entirely different topic. Mobile vendors often try to prevent you from installing some open-source OS.

A new feature in Qt won't hurt any open-source software. If any open-source software makes use of it and you don't like it, it will always be trivial to change that.


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## astyle (Jan 27, 2022)

Zirias said:


> A new feature in Qt won't hurt any open-source software.


I do have my doubts about that.


astyle said:


> I don't think that it will be out of question for ads to appear anyway, even if the API for the monetization is not explicitly used.


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## zirias@ (Jan 27, 2022)

You may have doubts as much as you want, but open-source software is trivial to modify (that's the point of it), so if people don't like ads, they won't have them...


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## Jose (Jan 27, 2022)

Zirias said:


> How is that relevant? Does KDE have to use _every_ feature Qt has to offer?











						KDE Free Qt Foundation
					

The KDE Free Qt Foundation is an organization with the purpose of securing the availability of the Qt toolkit



					kde.org
				





Zirias said:


> But it's much more likely (and, useful) in shareware and similar stuff.


That's just like, your opinion, man.


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## zirias@ (Jan 27, 2022)

I guess it makes little sense to continue this. At least not if you're just throwing completely unrelated links in  My "opinion" is well founded on arguments, you're free to disagree anyways...


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## Jose (Jan 27, 2022)

Zirias said:


> At least not if you're just throwing completely unrelated links in


KDE and Qt are unrelated. Got it 


Zirias said:


> My "opinion" is well founded on arguments, you're free to disagree anyways...


Arguments are nice. I'm going to take the word of the people who actually produce Qt, though. They clearly mean for this feature to be used in open source projects.


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## zirias@ (Jan 27, 2022)

Jose said:


> KDE and Qt are unrelated.


Your words, definitely not mine. That's no base for a somewhat sane discussion.


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## D-FENS (Jan 28, 2022)

Jose said:


> I don't. Openbox + terminal is all I need and want. I forced Xfce on my family when I forced Linux on them. It was just ok, and I stopped that a decade ago.


Be careful, your family could rebel.  Try persuading them instead of forcing.


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## CuatroTorres (Jan 28, 2022)

It's Friday and this thread has gotten stale. Have a beer over the break, this thread has been invaded  and developers  will want to see their revenue grow with open source software at some point in their lives anyway.


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## Jose (Jan 28, 2022)

roccobaroccoSC said:


> Be careful, your family could rebel.  Try persuading them instead of forcing.


They did. Hence the unfortunate melange of Apple and Windows we have now.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 29, 2022)

CuatroTorres said:


> … this thread has been invaded  …



Almost on topic, 



grahamperrin said:


> … for giggles, I allowed the file system checker to perform repairs. *More than ten million lines of output* from ffsck_ffs(8), so much that it was impossible to save a log of the session in its entirety. …



Probably not arising from the _15-Minute Bug Initiative_, but I was pleasantly surprised to find a KDE merge request for the bug: 

Draft: Fix bug 447820 unlimited history overflows cell positions - Make cell position 64 bit (!590) · Merge requests · Utilities / Konsole · GitLab

Hats off to the developers.


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