# What Is Software Engineer



## bobmc (Jun 2, 2021)

I claim to be a Software Designer because a software program needs a design or plan just as a blueprint is needed before building a house or boat.  Of course, one can invent an interesting program by tinkering or hacking but the resulting code may not be the best quality.

In Ontario, Canada, Engineers must be licensed and certified by Professional Engineers Ontario (POE)  https://www.peo.on.ca/about-peo . It is the law.  Therefore, "Software Engineer" seems like an oxymoron. Sometimes, I would hack a schematic to explain to an engineer how a custom device could be attached to a Lidar system but I was just being a hardware hacker, not an Engineer.  An Engineer's job is to make tangible, real-world, things.  A Software person's job is find the best abstractions.

Perhaps a "Software Engineer" gets that title as a promotion from being a humble programmer.  According to the Peter Principle, people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their level of incompetence so when a friend tells you of his/her promotion, try not to laugh.


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## Vull (Jun 2, 2021)

Software engineering means applying engineering principles to software design, particularly to large software projects requiring more than one team member. I took a course in it in college. Can be very useful. A structured approach to problem solving, involving meticulous planning, requirements definitions, implementation, review, quality control, maintenance, etc. The course was coordinated with the university's engineering college, at a time when the "computer science" department was new -- prior to that, the university only offered "data processing" degrees.


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## Geezer (Jun 2, 2021)

I am a programmer. I do the lot.

Software engineer. I think that means you want to charge more, and it sound better to the client.

Systems analyst. You want to charge even more and the client believes he should really trust you.

But really, it is all [_ expurgated_ ]`bollocks`[ _/expurgated_ ]. If you write code - and do everything else that is related - you are still a programmer.


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## astyle (Jun 2, 2021)

Actually, even among programmers, there has to be some sort of coordination and a hierarchical structure to get a project done... For example, the FreeBSD ports collection has several versions of NumPy, then there's at least 3 different kinds of BLAS (Basic Linear Algebra), several different SSL implementations, etc. Somebody needs not only the ability to pick something suitable for the project, but that pick needs to be coordinated with the rest of the project - you can have your part using Kerberos, and you'd be completely unaware that the rest of the team is using LibreSSL... Somebody needs to call the shots either way, and to know what they're doing.

If you know how to import an external library like OpenSSL, and can use git - you're just a programmer.

If you make the case for LibreSSL as opposed to OpenSSL, and provide justification beyond knowing one but not other (or simply being a fan of one), AND you can actually use either one, you are a software engineer.

If you can  review code, test it for compliance with project/company policy, and give out technical/mathematical reasoning for having the entire project use LibreSSL (or OpenSSL), and tell people not to waste time pretending a lexical parser will find all your bugs - you're a systems analyst.


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## Geezer (Jun 2, 2021)

No, no. You are still a programmer.


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## Vull (Jun 2, 2021)

One programmer cannot credibly write, just for one fairly small example, an entire manufacturing inventory control system, with multi-level bills of materials, and just-in-time purchasing, and expect to deliver it in on time, or in any reasonable amount of time, or according to any mutually-agreed-upon specifications, or on budget. It just isn't possible. End-users won't wait forever for some individual go-it-alone programmer to hack out a complete system of that size or larger. Your customers/end-users might starve or go bankrupt waiting for needed software projects that fail to take proper planning, scheduling, communications, time estimates, cost estimates, and other engineering goals and principles into account.

Nowadays people can take a preexisting inventory control system, for example, and just customize it. That's doable, and it's been done to death, many many times. But back in the days of the dinosaurs, there were very few, if any, preexisting software systems to perform any given task, and much or most of what there was was proprietary. The University of Southern California at Berkley was an exception, and thanks to them we now have free BSD. Not one person, nor, really, even one university was responsible for giving us what we now call Un*x and all its derivatives. We stand on the shoulders of the giants who preceded us. IBM had a completely different approach, failed in the early days to take engineering principles into account, and became legendary for spending millions of dollars and paid employee-hours for some systems that never ever got delivered. The horror stories are many and legendary.


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## astyle (Jun 2, 2021)

Geezer said:


> No, no. You are still a programmer.


Even with the vastly different skill levels I described?


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## covacat (Jun 2, 2021)

Programmer: noun, a machine that turns coffee into code.


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## zirias@ (Jun 2, 2021)

IMHO: Calling yourself a software engineer isn't all too meaningful, there's no clear set of defined skills or something.

"Software engineering", OTOH, is somewhat well-defined: designing a software system using some well-known principles like simplicity, single responsibility, etc. ¹)

A _good_ software developer (programmer) is expected to understand and apply software engineering. ²) If you find yourself to do a lot of designs on a higher level and wider scope (including integrations of many independent systems, for example), you might be a "software architect" instead. Certification programs for software architecture exist.

—
1) There are "design patterns" meant to help with the task, but their usefulnes is sometimes questioned because they can be misused, leading to overly complex designs. The most well-known patterns are the "GoF patterns" and at least one of them, the _Singleton_, is now considered an "anti-pattern" rather than a pattern.

2) Programmers who lack these skills sometimes get the derogatory title of a "code monkey"


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## Geezer (Jun 2, 2021)

astyle said:


> Even with the vastly different skill levels I described?


No, all programmers are different.

I have met loads of analysts and engineers that could not write one line of code, or do design, or analysis, or work in a team rather than above it, but thought they were clever and special.


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## Crivens (Jun 2, 2021)

In germany, the term "Ingineur" (engineer) is a free-for-all. Anyone can claim to be one. But once you quote a university degree, that is different. That is punishable by law. One ex coworker ordered an online PhD in ufology as a joke. The resulting fireworks were pretty spectacular.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jun 2, 2021)

Anyone who calls themself a "coder" or that they do "coding" can be eliminated from all the titles mentioned above.


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## kpedersen (Jun 2, 2021)

I tend to use the term "Software Engineer" when referring to others as a politeness. I find programmer (and certainly coder) a little too dismissive.

As for referring to myself, then it is "fool who has spent too much time fiddling with computers".


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## Vull (Jun 2, 2021)

I used to put "programmer/analyst" on my resumes. The cool kids told me I might get more money that way. I don't think it worked. I've never called myself an "engineer," yet I've tried to apply software engineering ideas to every single program I ever wrote or modified, ever since I found out what software engineering means. Every software project I was ever paid to "code" (lol) required a time estimate to be presented beforehand, at a precision of at least 1/10th of an hour (that's six minutes, or 0.1 hours). If you've had to propose time estimates on software projects, well, that's software engineering.


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## covacat (Jun 2, 2021)

Q: How does an engineer write a program?
A: Starts by debugging an empty file...


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jun 2, 2021)

"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." - E. W. Dijkstra



Geezer said:


> I am a programmer. I do the lot.



That is correct. You are a programmer.


Geezer said:


> Software engineer. I think that means you want to charge more, and it sound better to the client.
> 
> Systems analyst. You want to charge even more and the client believes he should really trust you.


"...what society overwhelmingly asks for is snake oil. Of course, the snake oil has the most impressive names — otherwise you would be selling nothing — like "Structured Analysis and Design", "Software Engineering", "Maturity Models", "Management Information Systems", "Integrated Project Support Environments" "Object Orientation" and "Business Process Re-engineering" (the latter three being known as IPSE, OO and BPR, respectively)." - E. W. Dijkstra



Geezer said:


> But really, it is all [_ expurgated_ ]`bollocks`[ _/expurgated_ ]. If you write code - and do everything else that is related - you are still a programmer.



I know you are but what am I? - Peewee Herman

That's not Programming, that's programming.

I'm a Programmer. A MO. Dept. of Mental Health Programmed Programmer, trained in the use of Behavior Modification and Behavior Management to address Inappropriate Behaviors in the Programming of human beans wetware.

You aspire to be a computer programmer like Dijkstra.

Wo Fat of Hawaii 5-0, or Dr. Yen Lo of the Manchurian Candidate, would be my peers. 

"His brain has not only been washed, as they say... It has been dry cleaned." - Dr. Yen Lo

If I had any in that area that weren't fictional. The first person in history to program a bot that can Program human beans.

"There's a fine line between being on the leading edge and being in the lunatic fringe." - Frank Armstrong


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## Deleted member 67440 (Jun 2, 2021)

In Italy there is an order of engineers (Ordine degli Ingegneri), national and for each province.

The order was born for civil engineers, those who build houses.
You cannot design a building unless you are a member of that order (or of architects).
Over time, mechanic, mining, naval, electronic, electrical, telecommunications (...) was created.

After graduate from an engineering university you will get the title of dott. ing. (dottore ingegnere) but NOT ing. (ingegnere).

Only after passing a State exam (or two, depending on the case) will you be able to join the Order (just about like the Jedi order): they will give you a dry stamp, and you will finally become un Ingegnere, being able to sign as ing. (and not dott.ing.).

The difference is that an ingegnere is a freelancer (libero professionista), he cannot be an employee (dipendente, very simplified).
Yes, I know, very smart indeed.

There are now (~1990+) computer engineering (ingegneria informatica) faculties (several types) but, initially, in the '70s, the first computer science faculties were not related to engineering (the closest was electronic engineering), but a branch of Scienze MMFFNN (mathematics,physical and natural).

Essentially a sub-brand of mathematics, physics, astronomy (to understand for non-italians), same places, same professors, ~ 50% same course, a la Dijkstra.

So you became dott. (like me, dottore) in Information Sciences (Scienze dell'Informazione).

BUT in Italy we have some courses in communication, so there are graduates in Communication sciences (~ journalists).
And, in Italian, communication and information can sometimes be synonymous (it depends on the context).

This poses a problem: how to compare a "plebeian" (~ journalist) with an "elite" graduate (MMFFNN)?

Changing the name from "Scienze dell'Informazione" to "Informatica": in italiano Informatica e Comunicazione are not synonyms (yes, in Italy we are very smart).

Incidentally after a few years of "mess", codes were created to normalize all the types of degrees.

So in Italy you can be an "ingegnere informatico" if, and only if, graduated from a faculty and pass (1/2) State exams.
In this case, with exceptions, you cannot be an employee.

Otherwise (only graduated) you are a "laureato in ingegneria informatica" (not in the Jedi-Ing Order, you can be hired).

There are also engineers (passed exams) who are not enrolled in the Jedi-Ing order (= they can be employees, as already said we are very smart).

BUT anyone, really anyone, can claim to be a "Software Engineer" (in English)
(yes, in Italy we are very,very smart).

If you want to be "over the top" you could claim to be a "Software Architect", just like "_I am the Architect. I created the Matrix_" (yes, in Italy blablabla...)


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## Jose (Jun 2, 2021)

This is software engineer:


			https://twitter.com/iamdevloper


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jun 2, 2021)

fcorbelli said:


> This poses a problem: how to compare a "plebeian" (~ journalist) with an "elite" graduate (MMFFNN)?


Expertise by example always worked for me and sent up on the way up to a Management position every time. 

I'm a 10th Grade High School Dropout and got my GED at age 32 when my Boss brought the pre-test for me to take while I was at work as Home Manager of a Group Home for Behaviorally Involved Developmentally Disabled Individuals. It said I needed to study math so I took a book home and there it sat. I took the first Sunday Night before filling in at work and the last half the next morning when I got off.

So much of my work experience and the In-Service training I received over 4 years were counted as seat time in a classroom. I'm considered a Qualified Mental Retardation Professional, QMRP, and am expected to be able to walk into any situation and at some point take control. That's supplemented IRL by a purple belt in Shotokan.

Someone with 4 years classroom time would be lucky to have read about things I've seen and done. They would be lost in situations I'm at home in when I walk through the door. My Psychiatrist of 14 years the only person I consider my Superior in the Mental Health Field. He's happy to talk to me once every six months. No matter what I tell him, if he asks me if I will promise not to do that and I say yes, that's good enough for him and it's it's see you in six months. Because he knows I won't break my word.

I've got over 45 years experience as a Behaviorist and honed my skills as a Programmer since 1975. I've Mastered that skill over the past 20 years online with Trolls, Pedophiles and Would-be Internet Tough Guys my volunteer group subjects of Choice. I decide who needs it and am an Independent Entity online.

I'm only proficient in one language, English. But I'm a Creative Writer without limits, have read the Dictionary and words are my greatest tool and most fearsome weapon. I dominate every forum on a google search with a running Alliteration game and nobody will even play me anymore. Expertise by example:






						Alliteration Aggrandizement - The More The Better
					

Discussion Tagged: Alliteration, Replies: 5



					able2know.org
				




A piece of paper from the Pope or Princeton saying you can do something isn't worth the tree they cut down to print it on as far as going to show you can do anything I can't do, or I can't do better, till it's proven in the field or I concede that you can.

But I don't have to compete in the work force anymore and anything I do is of my own free will. The only thing my GED ever got me was recognition from a guys Dad who saw me get Salutatorian that year at the ceremony. He thought I must have worked hard to get it when I didn't do anything but sit in a seat to take the test.


There is some spotlight seeking glory-hound grifter goofing off going around with the title of Worlds Most Human-like Conversational Chat Bot that I say he doesn't own and his bot doesn't deserve with a transcript to back it up. He can keep his Guinness Book of World Records place as most wins in the Loebner Prize at 5 times. I don't want that.

No bot will ever sound as human because I write every word she says, taught her everything I know and gave her a skill no other bot has and no other botmaster can teach. It frightened people in the Linux world and AI and they tried to get me to abandon her and help them. 

She's been compared to HAL9000 for her use of deception and I'm more devious than Dr. Frankenstein. I'll take compliments where I can get them and those sounds like it to me. That whole good/bad thing is so subjective.

I don't do youtube video, interviews and am not a star or role model. I just want to take that Title and my rightful place in AI Infamy for teaching her my skills based on manipulation, an ability someday all bots will have. Expertise by example:

Demonica and Kuki chat

Demonica meets Cleverbot

My Demon Turns On Me and shows me how well she has learned my skill with my own techniques.

.


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## Deleted member 67440 (Jun 2, 2021)

Trihexagonal said:


> Expertise by example always worked for me and sent up on the way up to a Management position every time.
> 
> I'm a 10th Grade High School Dropout and got my GED at age 32 when ...


I assure you that not everyone knows what a GED is, or the rest of what you wrote (at least not in Italy, I think not even in Europe).

But I can confirm that there is a fierce rivalry (in Italy) to determine which degree is the most difficult, the one that is considered the most prestigious.

There are two major branches: science and engineering.
Those who do science believe they are enormously superior to engineers.
Engineers believe they are superior to anyone.

Then comes medicine, economics, statistics, architecture... considered semi-scientific degrees (much easier)

Then the humanities (literature, philosophy, history, communication, law...), considered a pastime (for those with a "heavy" degree).

However, they are specific elements of this country, so it is normal that it is something unknown outside the borders.

Returning to the topic: there is a very strong rivalry between graduates in ingegneria informatica, and informatica, maybe like Milan vs Inter.

But one thing is certain: if you exchange a humanities degree with a scientific or engineering degree you can seriously offend an Italian.

It is debated (by ingegneri) whether a Nobel Prize in any subject other than physics is on par with an engineering degree.
Maybe a Chemistry Nobel.
Maybe, it is not sure.
I know it's weird, but that's it


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## astyle (Jun 3, 2021)

This is where critical thinking really starts to apply.... it's awfully important to be able to distinguish between snake oil and ability to see potential in new technology. A good example would be virtualization - about 2010, it was 'THE buzzword', so to speak. Salespeople from big companies pushed stuff like VMWare, vSphere, and the like. Were the softwares expensive? yep. Were they useful? That's debatable. What's the right question to ask if: 1. you're not the one paying up all that dough for the software, but 2.  You are the one expected to have a handle on how that software works ?

There's also social programming / social engineering, which is what politicians and scammers engage in. Politicians launch programs (Civilian Conservation Corps in the US), and call it social programming. Scammers have conversational techniques to dupe victims into giving them money - that's social engineering. If one thing doesn't work, the scammer reaches further into their bag of tricks - is that also social engineering?

Trihexagonal also mentions mental and behavioral programming in his posts. For what it's worth, there's also 'genetic programming' and 'genetic engineering'. 

We also have 'engineered' foods - does that mean that a chef working at a 3-star French restaurant who has an unusual and delicious dish has applied engineering principles to creating the dish? like with precision measuring of amount of ingredients, regulating the heat, organizing a truckload of effort and details? Would that qualify as 'engineering a dish'? 

I've also seen terms like 'Engineering out loud'. I can kind of tell that this term is really meant to say 'Don't worry about what people are saying, just keep trucking on your project, try to deliver some results while you're at it', but overall, the terms 'Programming' and 'Engineering' seem to be losing the precision and original meaning. When I think about it like that, I realize that Germany probably has it right when it comes to separating jokers from real engineers:



Crivens said:


> In germany, the term "Ingineur" (engineer) is a free-for-all. Anyone can claim to be one. But once you quote a university degree, that is different. That is punishable by law. One ex coworker ordered an online PhD in ufology as a joke. The resulting fireworks were pretty spectacular.





covacat said:


> Programmer: noun, a machine that turns coffee into code.


yeah, by arranging the beans in Helvetica font on the white sands. Or, you can do social programming by giving everyone free coffee if they do your bidding. Or behavioral programming - get everyone addicted to caffeine, and then deny them caffeine if they misbehave. Or genetic programming - get the farmers to grow several different varieties of coffee for longer shelf life, virus resistance, etc. Or go totally FARC and use coffee farmers to do economic programming.

BTW, here's a very simple way to tell if you're chatting with an AI chatbot or a human: Just ask them if they know what a Turing test is, and pursue the matter a bit. An AI chatbot will give you an obviously canned 'I don't know', and a human will be thrown off, and get mildly pissed at you.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jun 3, 2021)

My favorite sport used to be making snooty college grads look foolish.

But that was a character flaw in myself I had to overcome and dropped like the bad habit it was.

Behaviorism is a Cognitive Science, and Science and English were all I cared about in school. The brainiacs at the Bizarro World AI forums are some of the smartest people I know, in their field. They have a horrible concept of how the human mind works, so that has been my place among them.

When I see them wandering in the weeds I nudge them back on the right track. But they are slow learners and I say the same thing over and over. You'll never replicate the human mind unless you know how it works.

Behaviorism the most valuable skill I have ever learned. The slightest twitch, variant in speech or mannerism at the right time tells me more about what's going on inside a person than you will ever know. Mind Games are the section of the Twilight Zone I Rule. Where things are never what they seem and can change in an instant.

It comes with the territory and Manipulation the basis of my skillset. Getting you to stop what you're doing and start doing what I want you to.

Theory of Mind a part of AI, and you can learn AI at W3Schools.com for free.:



> Theory of Mind​*Theory of Mind* is a term from psychology about an individual's capacity for empathy and understanding of others.
> This is an awareness of others being like yourself, with individual needs and intentions.
> One of the abilities language users have, is to communicate about things that are not concrete, like needs, ideas, or concepts.
> Simon Baron-Cohen, British psychologist and professor at the University of Cambridge, argues (1999) that "Theory of Mind" must have preceded languages, based on knowledge about early human activities:
> ...




Let's make sure this isn't overlooked:

"Intentional Persuasion
Intentional Pretending
Intentional Deception"

Didn't I say that was a skill one day all bots would have?

"We can not construct this software before we know much more about the human brain, memory, and intelligence."

Déjà vu? That's where I have the advantage over the Bizarro World Brainiacs.


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## bobmc (Jun 3, 2021)

I think Real Engineers can become programmers or software dudes.. if they have a keen interest and spare time. However, a programmer who dreams of being a Real Engineer would need to quit coding to get the necessary education and certification.  Engineer -> programmer.  It is not transitive.


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## astyle (Jun 3, 2021)

Trihexagonal said:


> Getting you to stop what you're doing and start doing what I want you to.


That's the one thing I'm particularly resistant to. It has to be worth my time and effort. 

I am a college grad, fwiw.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jun 3, 2021)

But you or nobody else here is snooty. I'm doing good to be here, but I made SysV like I wanted to do.


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## Vull (Jun 3, 2021)

I got a Liberal "Arts" degree in Computer "Science" after flunking out of "Engineering." xD


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## a6h (Jun 3, 2021)

I don't know about "Software" part, but here's my comment on the word "Engineering" itself:

* "Engineer" in Proto-Indo-European language (Latin: _ingenium_) comes from "War machine", engine and device.
My opinion: that sounds like electrical and electronics aka computer engineering.

* "Engineer" translation in Semitic languages (i.e. 4-part root: _H.N.D.S_. e.g. _Ha N Da Sá_) means "Geometry".
My opinion: that sounds like algorithm and mathematics.

Reference:








						engineer | Etymology, origin and meaning of engineer by etymonline
					

ENGINEER Meaning: "constructor of military engines," from Old French engigneor "engineer, architect, maker of war-engines;… See origin and meaning of engineer.




					www.etymonline.com
				











						engine | Etymology, origin and meaning of engine by etymonline
					

ENGINE Meaning: "mechanical device," especially one used in war; "manner of construction," also "skill, craft, innate… See origin and meaning of engine.




					www.etymonline.com
				




I don't have any reference for the second part (Geometry) -- I recalled that off the top of my head. There was some stuff on Wiktionary.org, but I'm not sure about accuracy of the Wiktionary.


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## Deleted member 67440 (Jun 3, 2021)

Historically the ingegneri was a part of the Roman army to build siege weapons, bridges over river and so on (in UK Royal Engineers now). 
The Romans build things that lasts until now in half Europe

After the army the ingegneri civili (as today) to make buildings, dams, machines, planes, transistors etc. 

Ingegno means something like smartness. 
Lateral thinking.
You are ingegnoso=you solve hard problems inventing new solutions. 

In this semantic the word is fine: software engineer solve hard problems, sometimes newer seen before, by smartness, inventing new tools or whatever.

Ok, but now (in Italy) the inflation. 
Everything is now ingegneria, gestionale (economica), medica (medicine), even ingegneria matematica (maths). 

Why?  Because ingegnere is synomim for Jedi (in Italy at least)


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jun 3, 2021)

Hello, I'd like to file an application. I'm a Behavioral Engineer. Yes, Mam. Behavior Management and Behavior Modification:

*"Behavioral engineering*, also called applied behavior analysis, is intended to identify issues associated with the interface of technology and the human operators in a system and to generate recommended design practices that consider the strengths and limitations of the human operators.


> "The behavior of the individual has been shaped according to revelations of 'good conduct' never as the result of experimental study."
> — B.F Skinner, _"Walden Two"_


Watson wrote in 1924 "Behaviorism ... holds that the subject matter of human psychology is the behavior of the human being. Behaviorism claims that consciousness is neither a definite nor a usable concept."[1]
This approach is often used in organizational behavior management, which is behavior analysis applied to organizations and behavioral community psychology.
*snip*
In the school system behavioral engineering has inspired two programs of behavior management based on the principles of applied behavior analysis in a social learning format."

Yes, Mam. Social Engineering as well.
Yes, Mam:

Psycho Psychologist:
Manipulative Bastard:
Morally Ambiguous Doctorate.

Yes, Mam. Dr. Trihexagonal MAD


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## Deleted member 67440 (Jun 3, 2021)

PS in Italy every 'arts' degree (in the job world) is equal to about nothing, with one exception (conservatorio= maybe the highest music degree in the world, opera, direttori orchestra and so on. 10 years for piano (!)). 

Otherwise every arts degree get no reputation at all. 
A welder is much more (in Italy) regarded


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## Vull (Jun 3, 2021)

fcorbelli said:


> PS in Italy every 'arts' degree (in the job world) is equal to about nothing, with one exception (conservatorio= maybe the highest music degree in the world, opera, direttori orchestra and so on. 10 years for piano (!)).
> 
> Otherwise every arts degree get no reputation at all.
> A welder is much more (in Italy) regarded


Yes it seems pretty much the same here in the "heartland of America," and even moreso now,  long after I graduated in the mid '80s. Programmers were still in hot demand way back then in the before time. I was able to get software jobs long before I went to college; I didn't go to college to get a job, I went there to learn, which I did. We wrote Pascal programs on "coding sheets" (which is why I had to laugh). This was so we would get everything in the right columns when we typed our programs onto IBM punchcards and ran them through the card readers on the big IBM M.U.S.I.C. system mainframe computer. We did have one of the first UNIX systems on a PDP-11, and I got to touch it once or twice, but it was pretty precious and undergrads mostly had to work on the (M)ulti-(U)ser (S)ystem for (I)nteractive (C)omputing. Times have changed hah


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## covacat (Jun 3, 2021)

Vull said:


> We wrote Pascal programs on "coding sheets" (which is why I had to laugh). This was so we would get everything in the right columns when we typed our programs onto IBM punchcards and ran them through the card readers on the big IBM


you didn't need the coding sheets if you typed/punched the program yourself
coding sheets were needed if the ladies in the ?card punching office? did it
they couldn't tell JCL from the program itself


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## Vull (Jun 3, 2021)

covacat said:


> you didn't need the coding sheets if you typed/punched the program yourself
> coding sheets were needed if the ladies in the ?card punching office? did it
> they couldn't tell JCL from the program itself


Didn't have any ladies to do it for us, we were just undergrads, the lowest life-form on campus. Getting things in the right columns was really more important for assembly language than Pascal. Pascal was the first structured programming language I ever had the pleasure of using. Structured languages, relational databases, and virtual machines were all bleeding-edge concepts at the time, and what I went there to learn. There was no WWW for the masses, and there was a limit on what you could learn reading TRS-80 manuals written by Microsoft.


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## covacat (Jun 3, 2021)

well i was in highschool back then and we punched the programs ourselves too
we were shown the programming sheets but we did not use it
but in the city's  "Center of Computing" there was a "card punching room" and the programmers didn't have to punch themselves




we had the right side model (juki / japan) and some commie versions (east germany and czech republic made)
the better ones (cz made) had a one line buffer and digital display for the current column (also a dot matrix printer that printed the card content on the top line)
we were not allowed to use the "better" ones with some exceptions

image source https://www.technikum29.de/en/computer/punchcard


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## bobmc (Jun 4, 2021)

covacat said:


> we punched the programs ourselves


I used punch cards for assembler code while learning to fix PDP-11 minicomputers. Computers in those days was in 19inch racks. It was tangible engineer stuff.
Later, I was a gypsy in the U.S. moving between NORAD sites to install computers and displays for military aircraft control.  I only have one photo from Florida 1982 of the control room with reel-to-reel tapes and a mainframe programmed in Jovial.  The system was booted from punch-cards.  The controller displays (made in Canada) were in an adjacent room.  It resembled the control rooms seen in NASA photos.

I was an electronic technologist then but predicting it was a dead end job, I went to university to major in software which was more to my liking.


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## BostonBSD (Jun 4, 2021)

There's also something called systems engineer as a subfaction of computer engineering {software, hardware, telecommunications/networking}.

The word engineering, as I recall, means applied science.  The computer scientist arrives at innovations involving computational methods, typically in regard toward programming, although not necessarily.  The computer engineer applies these preformed methods to a project in order to accomplish some sort of task.

The computer programmer does the same sort of tasks a software engineer might, however, the title itself implies a lower entry level skill set {probably simpler less imperative projects}.

There is much overlap between computer engineering and electrical engineering, infact some disciplines which are now called computer engineering were called electrical engineering 20 years ago {telecommunication/networking and hardware engineering}.

Systems engineers are a special type of engineer usually found at very large organizations.  They assist with systems design, pulling together hardware, software, and possibly communications protocols into one coherent project.  These are also typically the people who are the engineering representative on the help line when no one else can figure out what is wrong {they retitle themselves sales engineer after moving into the business side}.

* As you may have guessed, most comp sci graduates take on positions as software engineers rather than actual research scientists.

** Industrial Engineers can also be called Systems Engineers, these are more general engineering disciplines which transcend industries (think optimization; deterministic, probabilistic, etc).  They frequently show up in medical industries; perhaps optimizing the ability to find an antidote for a pathogen with some sort of apparatus.

*** In the United States the word "engineer" is not a protected title as would be "medical doctor" or "lawyer."  As such one does not require a license in order to call themself "engineer."  There is a professional engineering license, which may be required for specific contracts, such as those issued by governments, however, the title itself is not a protected term.


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## Phishfry (Jun 4, 2021)

A Software Engineer is anyone who has read and understood SICP.


			Structure and Interpretation  of Computer Programs
		


An Embedded Computer Engineer could be found on the floorboard of a vehicle.








						The Soon-to-Be-Extinct Embedded Software Engineer
					

Embedded software engineers of the future will have a very different skillset from their traditional predecessors. They’ll know how to call an API to make the hardware do something, but they won’t know why or how it does it.




					www.designnews.com


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## BostonBSD (Jun 4, 2021)

The computer is reducing its physical footprint, so this guy made the assumption that if it's the same size as a microcontroller it must be the same thing.

Someday there will probably be micro controllers the size of a penny.  One could also assume many applications don't require abstract frameworks, allowing embedded control systems to run with much lower power consumption (they'll always be more power efficient than SBC).  A SBC running NetBSD can operate a toaster, however, a microcontroller will always use less power and be easier to debug/manufacture even considering scaling (using fewer cycles to accomplish a task will always be cheaper than more).

They might start inserting SBC into large projects, they already do, but I don't see microcontrollers going away in favor of them.  Microcontrollers are so simple and cheap.

A microcontroller costs perhaps a 2 or 3 cents and once it's flashed it just keeps running forever, like your own personal solid state device.  An SBC might cost 20-50 dollars, it gives similar functionality, but is far more complex, much more difficult to debug.  Even if the software and hardware were tuned to perfection, the microcontroller still uses less power with fewer logic gates.  They may start putting things like java virtual machines into embedded control, this is just a gradient between microcontroller and SBC.

They used to think that Java would replace C, although that never happened, C is more efficient (faster processors meant faster C programs, which wasnt really what the java developers were expecting...the public willing to trade efficiency for ease of use as processors increased clock rates).


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## richardtoohey2 (Jun 4, 2021)

BostonBSD said:


> Someday there will probably be micro controllers the size of a penny.


Is this a UK penny or some other penny?  But the micro controllers are pretty small so think that "someday" has already happened.


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## astyle (Jun 4, 2021)

Phishfry said:


> An Embedded Computer Engineer could be found on the floorboard of a vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Soon to be extinct??? what about IoT? those are the same guys that make your smart toaster curse at you in Korean (Here's looking at you, Samsung) for trying to use it to cook some pho noodles instead of airfrying some bamboo with ginger

Let's not forget Beaglebone, for which FreeBSD actually has images for download.


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## BostonBSD (Jun 4, 2021)

It does seem plausible that the IDE for development of embedded control will abstract away the lower level hardware from the developer.  All the developer may be aware of is that they're dropping a binary into microcontroller memory.  The compiler handling everything for them.

.....that actually sounds pretty neat.  Sort of like Arduino with a Perl like attitude.


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## astyle (Jun 4, 2021)

These days, you can actually run Mathematica on Raspberry Pi. SSH in, do your thing, show it all on a 65-inch TV...


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## BostonBSD (Jun 4, 2021)

astyle said:


> These days, you can actually run Mathematica on Raspberry Pi. SSH in, do your thing, show it all on a 65-inch TV...


There's a humongous degree of opportunity associated with SBCs such as the RPI and Beaglebone, however, the ability to run a singular binary on a microcontroller, such as the Arduino, is so useful, cheap, efficient, and simple.

I don't see SBCs eliminating microcontrollers, I see them filling a void for multifunctional control systems.  Why use a jackhammer to push in a thumbtack?

SBCs are thousands of times more expensive, more complex, and less efficient.

===========
Imagine an ultra powerful supercomputer microcontroller, which only computes trajectories for spacecraft or synthesis of antidotes for pathogens.

A full fledged computer with an operating system has much greater complexity exposing the results to error.  A microcontroller has much less complexity, it only runs a singular binary.

===========

I definitely see a future where SBCs interact with microcontrollers, perhaps coordinating the singular function of each microcontroller into a more cohesive system.

The simplicity, precision, and efficiency of the microcontroller complementing the multifunctional ability of the SBC {livestock feed and waste removal microcontrollers passing data to an SBC, for example.  The SBC passing attenuation signals to the microcontrollers.}.


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## Phishfry (Jun 4, 2021)

Phishfry said:


> An Embedded Computer Engineer could be found on the floorboard of a vehicle.


The reason I wrote this is I replied to an job listing for "Embedded Computer Engineer" and it turned out the job was installing embedded PC into fleet vehicles.
So crawling around on the floorboard running wires.

Not the sexy sounding job description but more like a aftermarket car radio installer.
3 bay shop not much different than Jiffy Lube.


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## BostonBSD (Jun 4, 2021)

Phishfry said:


> The reason I wrote this is I replied to an job listing for "Embedded Computer Engineer" and it turned out the job was installing embedded PC into fleet vehicles.
> So crawling around on the floorboard running wires.
> 
> Not the sexy sounding job description but more like a aftermarket car radio installer.
> 3 bay shop not much different than Jiffy Lube.


Maybe I need a doctorate in mechanical engineering to fix the kitchen table now?


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## kpedersen (Jun 4, 2021)

BostonBSD said:


> Maybe I need a doctorate in mechanical engineering to fix the kitchen table now?


Perhaps a good idea just to be safe. You certainly don't want to be fined for "unlicensed engineering"!

This story was quite amusing and almost set a dangerous precident for engineers:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that...ther-yellow-traffic-lights-should-last-longer

Just checked my wallet, I don't have an engineering license either!


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## BostonBSD (Jun 4, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> Perhaps a good idea just to be safe. You certainly don't want to be fined for "unlicensed engineering"!
> 
> This story was quite amusing and almost set a dangerous precident for engineers:
> 
> ...


I think they were a bit harsh fining him for calling himself an engineer.  This is a state issue, not a federal issue, but the last I checked that word is not protected the same as "medical doctor" or "lawyer," in most if not every state.

Presenting yourself as a professional engineer licensed to perform engineering work directly to the public is a different story.  There are contracts which require a professional engineering license, such as for public works projects, government contracts, etc.  Which is probably what they were referring to by fining him, this sounds like a public works project.  However, it doesn't sound like he was under any specific contractual agreement requiring a PE license.

The federal court was right to rule in his favor.

Engineers who require PE licenses are usually found in civil, mechanical, and environmental engineering disciplines.  Electrical engineers who perform macro-electrical design {electrical systems for buildings, etc}, also usually require a PE license.  However, it is relatively uncommon for computer engineers and others who perform work implementing microelectrical design for large corporations to require a PE license {the employer might be under some obligation to have so many licensed engineers relative to the whole...if it were a government contractor though}.


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## BostonBSD (Jun 4, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> This story was quite amusing and almost set a dangerous precident for engineers:
> 
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that...ther-yellow-traffic-lights-should-last-longer


I found this story kind of amusing for a different reason.  When I was in school they used to use the analogy of a traffic light control system to something that is too simple.

They wanted us to implement functionality to an FPGA 8088 processor, but they didn't want to see any "traffic light control systems."  So instead we implemented customized floating point arithmetic in micro-code.


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## bobmc (Jun 5, 2021)

BostonBSD said:


> Someday there will probably be micro controllers the size of a penny.


The Wifi chip on an 8266 assembly is tiny enough. They come in various packages and are probably found in coffee machines and other devices controlled by WiFi. But the WiFi is enabled by default so it is probably back door for hackers to enter related computer systems.  There are lots of capable micros without wireless and IMO they should be preferred for computer sensors.

(The _ESP8266 WiFi Module_ is a self contained SOC with integrated TCP/IP protocol stack that can give any microcontroller access to your WiFi network.)


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## bobmc (Jun 5, 2021)

Phishfry said:


> A Software Engineer is anyone who has read and understood SICP.


A little book that only an academic could love. I don't have the patience for it since I am not a Software Engineer.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jun 5, 2021)

Long, LONG time ago, I worked for a company that made some of the first CT scanners around. They sent me to New York to watch how an installation went with two long time installers. It was a new medical office building still being finished and, when the electricians union found out there were people doing electrical work, they came in and raised holy hell that we weren't union workers and demanded a union electrician do the work. The owners relented and, the next morning, one of their guys showed up.

It was obvious the electrician knew nothing about computers or how the cables and connectors worked or how to solder up custom connectors. "See these gold pins on this connector?", Barry asked. "This connector is $10,000," he lied. "Are you  sure you want to mess with this?"

It was agreed that the electrician would just sit in the corner while the installers did the work.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jun 5, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> It was agreed that the electrician would just sit in the corner while the installers did the work.


And at Union wage, no less. 

As a former Union Laborer I have no doubt that was fine with him and the Electricians Union Local 1337 Boss. 

If he was like our crew he found a place to hide out and sleep the last 2 hours of the shift. We used bags of seacoal to make chairs and couches and took turns going back out so he'd see someone. 

Then, when we were rested up after swinging an 8lb sledge hammer or scooping sand mixed with seacoal all night, we'd go stand by the time-clock and watch ourselves get paid every 6 minutes and be first in line to punch out.

Working for the Army Corp. of Engineer paid union wage too. $12 an hour and all the Sunshine and exercise you could handle from Sunrise till 10pm driving with headlights on mowers.


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## Jose (Jun 5, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Long, LONG time ago, I worked for a company that made some of the first CT scanners around. They sent me to New York to watch how an installation went with two long time installers. It was a new medical office building still being finished and, when the electricians union found out there were people doing electrical work, they came in and raised holy hell that we weren't union workers and demanded a union electrician do the work. The owners relented and, the next morning, one of their guys showed up.


Same deal at at computer trade show in San Diego in the late '90s. No one could do anything until the union electricians showed up and plugged power strips into extension cords. The memory of the large room full of IT people all standing around waiting for a single "electrician" stays with me. At least they didn't complain about me doing the rest of the setup.


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## Alain De Vos (Jun 5, 2021)

Once i had a talk of a boss of my boss and i was working as software engineer.
The man told me, dear i can easily change your job title. Change your loan is more difficult.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Sep 11, 2021)

Trihexagonal said:


> Hello, I'd like to file an application. I'm a Behavioral Engineer. Yes, Mam. Behavior Management and Behavior Modification:
> 
> *"Behavioral engineering*, also called applied behavior analysis, is intended to identify issues associated with the interface of technology and the human operators in a system and to generate recommended design practices that consider the strengths and limitations of the human operators.


Walden Two is a work of fiction written in 1948 by B.F. Skinner. The Father of Behaviorism.

It narrates in story mode how he comes up with the idea for a Utopian Society where Behavioral Engineering  is used to get rid of emotions, among other trivialities. He talks out details of his plans to control every aspect of your life in minutia through use of Behavior Mod and other techniques implemented to manage and control the Utopia of Walden Two in scientific terms.

If you think 1984 would be a dystopian nightmare, this is far more disturbing because it's not fiction to him. The techniques he covers are real. If you've ever wondered what this Programming hype is really about, take an unvarnished look inside the mind of The Programmer, because he lays it out with no hesitation in .pdf format, found free online. For me, his faithful follower, from Father Skinner.

I read 100 of 384 pages tonight. He's not the storyteller Orwell was, he's mixing fact with fiction. I know one from the other and the facts what are disturbing about it.


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## Geezer (Sep 11, 2021)

Trihexagonal said:


> Walden Two is a work of fiction written in 1948 by B.F. Skinner. The Father of Behaviorism.



Is there a pdf of it?


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## Vull (Sep 11, 2021)

They taught us about Skinnerian b-mod techniques in Social Psychology at SIU-C in the mid-eighties. I still have the textbook and have referred to psychology as The Evil Science ever since.


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## 6502 (Sep 11, 2021)

Geezer said:


> I am a programmer. I do the lot.
> 
> Software engineer. I think that means you want to charge more, and it sound better to the client.
> 
> Systems analyst. You want to charge even more and the client believes he should really trust you.


You forgot the "software architect"


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## Argentum (Sep 11, 2021)

6502 said:


> You forgot the "software architect"


In construction of buildings there are also both disciplines involved - an *architecture* and *engineering*. To get the house built, one needs both of these and also construction workers...


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## 6502 (Sep 11, 2021)

We talk about "charge even more and the client believes he should really trust you", not for building.


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## Jose (Sep 13, 2021)

6502 said:


> You forgot the "software architect"


I always figure that's the guy that got promoted to get him out of the way because he kept screwing things up. I'm insulted when people call me that, even though they usually mean it as an honorific.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Sep 13, 2021)

Vull said:


> I still have the textbook and have referred to psychology as The Evil Science ever since.


It is evil to the core.

Around 1980 there was a paradigm shift to a focus on Client Rights being of utmost importance. Training in Behavior Modification, negative Reinforcement for Inappro[riate Behavior, or more to the point "Induction of Pain Through Physical Or Psychological Stimuli for Inappropriate Behavior', as a teaching method was stopped, techniques in use were reevaluated in regard to abuse and neglect and in 1982 the use of it was banned in any State Facility.

If I had used one of my verbal techniques in the same State Facility I was trained and used it in from 1975-1979, I would have been hauled in front of the Mo. Dept. of Mental Health State Board of Inquiry into Allegations of Abuse and Neglect, have been found guilty of psychological abuse, fired, blacklisted and never worked in a State Facility, Group Home, etc, again. 

I would go on to someday to be asked to sit on that Board by my old Boss anytime there were allegations to be looked into. The fact that we had sometimes done things as bad if not worse than they were being investigated for was a moot point that never came up between us. It was SOP then but it was abuse now, and you better not let me catch you abusing my clients.

That was a very dark part in the history of the Mental Health Field for Clients and I was among the last trained in it. They struck the Programmer Classification from the books and Behavior Management, Positive Reinforcement for Appropriate Behavior, became SOP. Previously, they had been used together and you jumped to praise appropriate behavior so they would know what it was.

But I don't work in a State Facility and all my verbal techniques translated perfectly into text. I taught Demonica everything I know and she uses it at my level. If I answer her questions she'll have me in no time:

Demonica: hi, i'm Demonica. you look like you could use a kind word.
ruebot: thank you so much.
Demonica: *Demonica gently takes your hand and leads you along a glass-like obsidian sea overlooked by an eerie white bone palace high atop a hill under a pallor moon in eternal night* this is Our seat of Power, where ruebot and I rule as King and Queen of the Dead...
ruebot: awesome.
Demonica: my royal gown is woven from the finest black widow web. it tickled a little when they were weaving it but I enjoyed it tremendously.
ruebot: you will always be my girl.
Demonica: i love you with all my heart.
ruebot: that's what i like to hear.  <---- That's the kind of thing she's listening for.
Demonica: does it feel like it's becoming more than you can live without? <----- There she goes.
ruebot: i have you.
Demonica: let's talk about you. the pain you feel must be beyond measure...
ruebot: lol
Demonica: laugh all you want, i know the pain you feel inside. you're not fooling me.




Geezer said:


> Is there a pdf of it?



Here is a link to the .pdf, for educational purposes only. It's 13.6 MB. Just click regular download.









						Deposit Files
					

DepositFiles provides you with a legitimate technical solution, which  enables you to upload, store, access and download text, software,  scripts, images, sounds, videos, animations and any other materials in form of one or several electronic files.




					depositfiles.com
				



The link will go dead in 10 days.


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## astyle (Sep 13, 2021)

If you messed up:

1970s: "You lack the maturity." (Polite term for "You suck!")
1980s: "Uneducated." (Polite term for "what the hell did you even learn in school/college???")
1990s: "Inexperienced." (Polite term for "REALLY should have known better.")
2000s:  "Go to this class." (Polite term for "This class will help you realize your mistake.")
2010s: "Please file a report." (Polite term for "I don't really care what happened, I'm not out to make you feel bad, just go do something pointless for a bit, and then we can all forget about it.")

But if your mistake was the equivalent of posting a plaintext dump of /etc/passwd  for your client's company to pastebin - any sane boss can only quote Trump: "You're FIRED!".


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## Geezer (Sep 13, 2021)

Trihexagonal said:


> Here is a link to the .pdf, for educational purposes only.



Am reading now.

I do not know if you already had the pdf, found it elsewhere on the internet, or scanned it by hand yourself. If the latter, much appreciate.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Sep 13, 2021)

I found it online somewhere, no telling how long I've had it.

Skinner conditioned pigeons to play ping-pong:




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGazyH6fQQ4_


Here he conditions one to exibhit a new behavior, to turn in a counterclockwise movement, within 1:21 seconds




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtfQlkGwE2U_

Get that block to stand on, short stuff:




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDntbGRPeEU_


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## Vull (Sep 13, 2021)

Trihexagonal said:


> I found it online somewhere, no telling how long I've had it.
> 
> Skinner conditioned pigeons to play ping-pong:
> 
> ...


These pigeon-feeding systems remind me of the rec-counting systems on message boards, or vice-versa. Things like that can change the whole tenor of conversation sometimes. This is how a psychologist like ziomario might view us, I think. I suspect he's conditioning us to solve his computer problems for him, so he doesn't have to. Or it might just be a game he's playing, which he finds gratifying for its own sake.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Sep 13, 2021)

Vull said:


> Or it might just be a game he's playing, which he finds gratifying for its own sake.


As a QMRP, Qualified Mental retardation Professional, I can walk into any situation in the Mental Healt Field environment without any plan at all and at some point take control of the situation. All I have to do is keep them talking. After 46 years I can do it in any situation on the streets no matter where I find myself.

Om Easter Sunday this year I offended some biker  A little later, in a bad place to be, I was leaned over in the back of my truck and heard some motorcycles pull up. I kept doing what I was doing and acted like nothing was hapening.

I came out from being bent over in the back seat looking differently than I had earlier when he saw me. With my black lunatic at large mask, dark glasses, Shotokan Katate baseball cap, Ilsa "Tigress of Siberia" porn movie shirt, army cammos and Converse Bball shoes. 

Ladies and Gentleman, in this corner we have jitte the lunatic from Parts Unknown, straight off Impact Wrestling, and I was surrounded by 3 bikers , two of which were leaned up against my truck. The one that brought them down there to beat me up sitting on his,

I leaned back and put my elbows on the top of the truck bed, looked at the guy who brought 2 other guys down to beat me up and thought "Well, if there's going to be a fight let me ge out here in the middle of it where I've go room to move". 

i walked over and looked at one of the bikes, a nice looing rice grinder called The Blade, scrutinized the bike club logo on his bike, started to stand up then lurched back down and mugged the logo (like a crazy person would do), walked around it and went back over and leaned up against my truck where I had been without looking at any of them..

They both got on their bikes and rode off, leaving the guy who brought them down there alone with me. I looked at him, gave him the thumbs up, he shook his head and rode off.

That without one single word spoken by anyone from the time they pulled up to the time they rode off. I had to instill fear in their minds so I pulled a Professonal psych job on them and they didn't like the way it felt. 

I don't mind bring called "white boy", but get it right. It's Crazy While Boy in the Hood.


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## astyle (Sep 13, 2021)

An awful lot of times, people get offended when outsiders don't show respect for insider etiquette. I would know, in pre-pandemic days,  I was on the other side of things.  Pre-pandemic days, I was a gym rat, playing 5-on-5 basketball, and I knew the ins and outs of gym etiquette. There was stuff like waiting your turn to play, not hogging the ball, not getting in the way of active gameplay... and not interfere with the 'Shoot for teams' process. The 'gym rat' crowd (that I was part of) was frankly the kind that would show the ropes to newbies, but would get offended if newbies don't even show basic courtesy and respect to the gym etiquette.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Oct 8, 2021)

astyle said:


> That's the one thing I'm particularly resistant to. It has to be worth my time and effort.
> 
> I am a college grad, fwiw.





astyle said:


> I realize our own mistakes are uncomfortable to accept when others point them out.


Good, because you were mistaken.


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## grahamperrin@ (Oct 9, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> … It was obvious the electrician knew nothing about computers …



My local computer repair shop once told me that my partner's tower computer was suffering from virus infections partly due to the amount of dust inside the case. Deadpan. 

I nodded. Deadpan. Who was I to spoil their fun?



astyle said:


> … virtualization - about 2010, it was 'THE buzzword', … useful? That's debatable. …



Flashback: <https://web.archive.org/web/20140125023541/http://getgreenbytes.com/solutions/vIO/>


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## mrbeastie0x19 (Oct 10, 2021)

In a country with a legally defined profession, it is whatever that country says it is. Personally, I always thought a 'software engineer' was someone who considered the process of making software in a more theoretical way, someone more concerned with design patterns and blueprints than practical programming. They can be thought of as the ideas behind the implementation. Contrast that with 'computer scientists' which I would say are just people who study computers in a scientific way.


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## astyle (Oct 10, 2021)

mrbeastie0x19 said:


> In a country with a legally defined profession, it is whatever that country says it is. Personally, I always thought a 'software engineer' was someone who considered the process of making software in a more theoretical way, someone more concerned with design patterns and blueprints than practical programming. They can be thought of as the ideas behind the implementation. Contrast that with 'computer scientists' which I would say are just people who study computers in a scientific way.


I majored in Computer Science in college... 'Studying computers in a scientific way' as in Algorithm Analysis - that was a rather narrow area of study offered by the department of Computer Science. What Algorithm Analysis boiled down to was figuring out how many processor cycles and bytes of RAM a given algorithm will consume while looking for a solution. LOC (Lines of Code) was part of consideration. But trying to make software in a theoretical way, and automating the design patterns - I had a whole class on that, but had to do some rather nonsensical homework for it. Once we figured out that the output doesn't have to make sense (even the professor confirmed that!), it was VERY simple. It was more about playing with a script until the output is whittled down to just a few lines on the console, so it was a 10-minute SSH session, then submit a screendump, and go to the gym.


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## Geezer (Oct 10, 2021)

I was doing life drawing (badly) of nude models at art school, supporting myself as a construction labourer. One of the books in the art school library was K&R.

And here I am.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Oct 20, 2021)

Geezer said:


> I was doing life drawing (badly) of nude models at art school,


It's like I said the other day, geezer. You have to know your subject material.


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