# upgrade old FreeBSD home server



## Todd McComb (May 17, 2021)

Hello, hopefully I've found the right place for my rather general inquiry.

I have been running FreeBSD at home since the 1990s, and have not updated my desktop/home server hardware in around ten years.  It is far past time.

My only "specialty" need is two network connections, so that I can run my home network.  Otherwise, it's basically a desktop machine, so I need memory, storage....

Is there a standard recommendation for where to start for a basic system like this?  I don't stay up to date on hardware at all, but unfortunately must do my own IT.  I don't want to skimp on costs, but I also don't need anything special.  Just something that's going to be rock solid for years, hopefully.

Thanks for suggestions.


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## PMc (May 18, 2021)

That's quite vague. I was in a similar situation 9 years ago, then I bought a consumer asus board with ivybridge i5 CPU, and it is still running stable (24/7) and fitting most of my needs. 
I think there are two decisions to make: 1. go with Intel or AMD? (I'm not sure if there is something else) 
2. is consumer stuff good enough or workstation/server board preferred? The latter gets expensive, but then a used one may do.


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## decuser (May 18, 2021)

I agree w/PMc... pretty vague. I've got two dell optiplex 755's that will run until the next millennium, or until some hardware fails and when it does, I'll prolly go on ebay and buy their replacement. 

The hardware notes is prolly a good place to start:
https://www.freebsd.org/releases/13.0R/hardware/

There used to be a hardware compatibility list, but I don't know where the updated version is.

If you stick to a known video card, I don't think you'll have problems with most reasonably standard hardware even on the latest machines (maybe not bleeding edge).


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## bakul (May 18, 2021)

You have lots and lots of choices. See https://bsd-hardware.info/ for what is known to work.


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## Todd McComb (May 18, 2021)

Sorry for the vagueness.  My needs are pretty straightforward, but it's almost the fact that there are too many choices that makes it hard to start.

Right now I have AMD consumer hardware, so that's probably fine.

As far as video, I'm just using what's on the motherboard right now. It needs to be able to run a modern web browser.  That's the most intensive app on the system, although running the network puts a pretty constant background load on the machine (not super high, but a load...).


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## Jose (May 18, 2021)

If I was going to build a low-power server from scratch, I would probably use one of the Pcengines APU systems that Phishfry recommends:








						Building 4G/LTE Router
					

I would like to build my own FreeBSD based 4G/LTE Router and am looking at possible components....  I think I would like something like this, but am not sure if I could install FreeBSD on it...




					forums.FreeBSD.org


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## Todd McComb (May 18, 2021)

Something that's a lot quieter would also be a nice upgrade to my current machine....


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## bakul (May 18, 2021)

I am using an inexpensive laptop ($300, Ryzen 3500U, 8GB, 256GB NVME -- alas no longer available) as my everything-but-the-fileserver-server. A laptop mainly to avoid a UPS (PG&E country. Have had outages > 30min and frankly most inexpensive UPS are crap). Its fan only goes on when I am running `make -j8 build{world,kernel}`. I use a GBe USB dongle as a second ethernet port . Plus the builtin GBe port.

The things to consider:

If you want to run games etc. you may want faster cpu & more memory. If you want to run VMs, you may want more cores & memory. If you are the kind who has 100+ browser tabs open go for more than 8GB.
If you don't want extensibility (more IO boards) got for a mini PC (about the size of Intel NUC) or a laptop.
Unless you want to store petabytes of data, avoid HDDs. May be even avoid SSDs (SATA interface). NVMEs are good enough. Buy two to mirror.Most desktops have a few SATA ports but why pay for them if you are not going to use them.
If you want to use less energy go with a laptop. Not sure they will last as long as desktops though.
4k 27" displays are not too expensive and definitely worth the money.


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## Deleted member 30996 (May 18, 2021)

I only buy older Thinkpads off ebay that are either business lease returns or from private sellers.

I have two Thinkpad W520 laptops with these same specs. One I paid a little over $200US for a few years ago and purchased the one I'm using now last summer for $286US delivered. Both are business lease returns and run like new:

Thinkpad W520
Intel Quad Core i7-2760QM (2.40GHz, 6MB L3, 1600MHz FSB, 45W)
8 GB RAM PC3-10600
Hitachi Travelstar 500GB HDD @ 7200 RPM
Nvidia Quadro 1000M with 2GB DDR3 and 96 CUDA cores with Optimus
15.6" TFT display with 1920x1080 (FHD) resolution with LED backlight

Here is this one ATM running FreeBSD 12.2-RELEASE-p6 with urxvt ,xfe, audacious, gkrellm2, firefox-esr, some leafpad text files open in the tray and gimp for the shot using a wallpaper I made with it:


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## Todd McComb (May 18, 2021)

A laptop is an interesting idea, but I was thinking about just a standard case, etc. There would seem to be more flexibility, especially for the future, and it's something I'll be wiring into place.

I won't be playing games, so don't need that level of graphics, but I don't want to skimp on memory.  That's why the current computer won't run a browser adequately anymore.

And no, not petabytes of data, but I do store my backups there.  A couple of terabytes is probably fine.

I'd ask a computer salesman what the "sweet spot" is for buying hardware, but they won't know anything about running FreeBSD....


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## SirDice (May 18, 2021)

Any local computer shops selling so-called "upgrade" kits? Those typically consist of a mainboard, CPU (with cooler) and memory. I often build new machines around such package deals. Then it's just a matter of adding a fitting case, a PSU and some storage (ssd, disks, NVMe, whatever you fancy or budget allows). Depending on what the mainboard of that package deal supports note that because it already comes with memory you might want to add more, so if it has 4 slots and only two are used with the packaged memory you can easily add more memory later (if you need it). But if it only has two slots and both are already in use then you would need to replace it with larger modules.



Todd McComb said:


> I'd ask a computer salesman what the "sweet spot" is for buying hardware, but they won't know anything about running FreeBSD....


It's likely not going to matter, FreeBSD should run fine on most mainboards. Just be wary of things like built-in Wifi, get a mainboard without it. You can always add a Wifi card later and you'll have more control _which_ card to pick. You can't swap it out if it's builtin on the mainboard. The less "optional" features a mainboard has the better in this case.


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## covacat (May 18, 2021)

get a 2nd hand graphics workstation. they are big and ugly but have higher quality components and good cooling, ecc ram good nics, server chipsets
i use to have a hp xw as a small office server. it was very quiet and reliable. you can get the manufacturer refurbished with warranty etc


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## decuser (May 18, 2021)

Trihexagonal said:


> I only buy older Thinkpads off ebay that are either business lease returns or from private sellers.


I'm with you on Thinkpads - I heart my T430, but how can you tell if they're business lease returns?


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## Todd McComb (May 18, 2021)

Tangentially, what's the preferred way to put the OS onto a new machine these days? USB stick?

I guess I'll still want an optical drive, because I do find myself ripping CDs still.  (I run a small music non-profit.)


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## BostonBSD (May 18, 2021)

I think I've mentioned it on this forum before, but this is what I have, it runs FreeBSD with Xorg better than it ever ran Windows.  Very silent (with SSD), low cost ( usually <$250 on ebay), very low power ~65 watts.

They do have the wifi option, although mine doesn't, which is actually a positive aspect of it.

HP Elitedesk 800 G3 Mini

This one replaced my old HP DC7900 Core2Quad, which lasted for over ten years.
It would have lasted longer but the the cooling system, started to fail.

(compiling the kernel with the -j4 option takes less than 30 min)


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## jdakhayman (May 18, 2021)

Just a few questions:

1. How many systems will be on the network?
2. using wireless?
3. Running any services that need to be reached from the outside?

If your just looking for a newer system that will act as a gateway for your outside network, ebay has plenty of good deals on used desktops that are typically from business lease returns

But if you are running additional systems on the lan and need other services, I would look into separting some of them out into diferent machines to try and avoid single failure points. The PC engines APU2 is a very nice choice to run as a gateway and firewall appliance. 

More information on what you need will help to make suggestions.

jda


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## Todd McComb (May 18, 2021)

To the questions above:

1. A handful at any given time, maxing out to like a dozen.  But the old server handled this fine.
2. It is like this: outside internet connect <-> computer I am discussing <-> switch <-> wifi router <-> devices (& sometimes devices wired to switch)
3. Only the server under discussion needs to be reached.

Are people running networks through those workstations?


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## mark_j (May 18, 2021)

As I see it you have a few options depending on local vendors:
1. Build your own. This takes some investigation work & some knowledge of current hardware: RAM, CPU, motherboard, graphics card etc. The beauty of this is you get exactly what you want.
2. Purchase a pre-built one from a local Computer shop or a known manufacturer like Dell, Apple, HP etc.

It all depends on your skill level, purchasing power and needs.
Personally I would go for option 1, but I understand people selecting option 2.

There's always a Raspberry Pi 4 with 8gb RAM.

Your question on installation media: USB is way, way, way faster than DVD/CD. I haven't had a CD/DVD/Bluray player in a desktop in ~10 years, but I understand you still use one. Just don't use it to install.


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## BostonBSD (May 18, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Are people running networks through those workstations?


I am not running a network through this workstation, although I see no problem with it for personal use (a heavily used network would require more research).


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## jdakhayman (May 18, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> To the questions above:
> 
> 1. A handful at any given time, maxing out to like a dozen.  But the old server handled this fine.
> 2. It is like this: outside internet connect <-> computer I am discussing <-> switch <-> wifi router <-> devices (& sometimes devices wired to switch)
> ...


It is my understanding that you are using the machine in question as both a gateway and as a desktop system? The one you want to upgrade?

jda


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## Jose (May 18, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> To the questions above:
> 
> 1. A handful at any given time, maxing out to like a dozen.  But the old server handled this fine.
> 2. It is like this: outside internet connect <-> computer I am discussing <-> switch <-> wifi router <-> devices (& sometimes devices wired to switch)
> ...


You could run into performance problems if your Internet connection is relatively fast. I used a Soekris net4801 (basically a 486) as my gateway and firewall running Openbsd for years. Then I upgraded my Internet connection to 100 Mbps, and discovered that old box could only do 30 Mbps. I have a small form factor motherboard in a rack-mount case now that routes and firewalls my Gbps connection with no problems. The problem with the Soekris box was IRQ load. I shop for Intel NICs with IRQ and DMA coalescing features.


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## Todd McComb (May 18, 2021)

Yes, I am doing double duty on the box as both a gatway and my desktop.  (It grew that way organically, adding a home network to a single computer....)  I haven't really run into trouble doing double duty, and it's easy to administrate this way.  (The other devices are consumer devices, including the laptop I'm typing on now. Because my "main" computer can no longer handle a web browser.)

As far as handling the network load, the old computer has been adequate, although demands will surely only increase....

Regarding the options from Mark_j, I'd assumed I'd probably need to do #1.  If I had someone where I'd have confidence for #2, I'd go for it though.


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## PMc (May 18, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Yes, I am doing double duty on the box as both a gatway and my desktop.  (It grew that way organically, adding a home network to a single computer....)  I haven't really run into trouble doing double duty, and it's easy to administrate this way.  (The other devices are consumer devices, including the laptop I'm typing on now. Because my "main" computer can no longer handle a web browser.)
> 
> As far as handling the network load, the old computer has been adequate, although demands will surely only increase....


I don't think there would be a performance issue. I would rather see a security issue (depending on what is done on the desktop). In my setup the gateway is not used interactively and is protected in all directions. Then everything on the inside becomes a real intranet. And there is no switch - the server has to do that. (I bought a switch only once - it was linux inside and full of bugs.)


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## Todd McComb (May 18, 2021)

I used to be more worried about intranet security, but now all of our intranet devices are also "travel to random public networks" devices, so there is nothing left to be sheltered....


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## Tieks (May 18, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Yes, I am doing double duty on the box as both a gatway and my desktop.  (It grew that way organically, adding a home network to a single computer....)  I haven't really run into trouble doing double duty, and it's easy to administrate this way.  (The other devices are consumer devices, including the laptop I'm typing on now. Because my "main" computer can no longer handle a web browser.)
> 
> As far as handling the network load, the old computer has been adequate, although demands will surely only increase....
> 
> Regarding the options from Mark_j, I'd assumed I'd probably need to do #1.  If I had someone where I'd have confidence for #2, I'd go for it though.


If you go for option #1, don't go for state of the art stuff, because you might buy something that that isn't supported yet. It is best to go for hardware that was top of the bill 1-2 years ago. That will be supported by now. The difference in performance will be minimal, and you will agree to the difference in price.


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## Todd McComb (May 18, 2021)

Tieks: I totally agree with you.  I don't want "very old" but a little old.

Unfortunately, it's the newest stuff that will be hyped....


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## Todd McComb (May 19, 2021)

So I take it that I shouldn't really worry about ethernet drivers these days?

The last time I bought hardware, that was a concern, i.e. that some wouldn't be adequate (I was told).
(Edit: Yes, I have a true Intel PCI double ethernet card running fxp.)

Now as long as I can connect two ports to it, it'll work OK?

I ask because that's really the only difference hardware-wise from e.g. a refurbed business desktop.


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## bakul (May 19, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> So I take it that I shouldn't really worry about ethernet drivers these days?


You have worry but much less! And more likely that refurbed desktops have ethernet h/w that is supported.

I haven't had great experience with used stuff. The two used thinkpads I bought didn't last all that long (but may be laptops are less reliable in general). I generally buy *new* hardware but *not the latest* hardware so that I get warranty and can extend warranty for 3 years or so.


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## PMc (May 19, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> The last time I bought hardware, that was a concern, i.e. that some wouldn't be adequate (I was told).
> (Edit: Yes, I have a true Intel PCI double ethernet card running fxp.)


It's now called em(4), I recently got a dual for 1.5€ and a quad for 5€ (not yet in active use, and the quad is a bit old and power-hungry) at the bay. In active use is alc(4) (works well) and re(4) (really low end). People seem to be going for 10Gbit, so these are dumped.


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## Deleted member 30996 (May 19, 2021)

decuser said:


> I'm with you on Thinkpads - I heart my T430, but how can you tell if they're business lease returns?


It's all about looking on ebay at the right time ready to buy, and if you don't see what you want today it could be there tomorrow.

A business lease return lot will have a larger number of the same model Thinkpad. A W520 is considered to be a workstation and can be upgraded to 32GB RAM. It's also the last Model that had the old style keyboard, which most people consider to be the best laptop keyboard made:

"Thinkpad W: High-end mobile workstations for CAD and digital art, supersedes the entire T series 'p' variants."

Be sure to check the sellers rep on past sales and pass them by if they have a history of problems. Other than that you can't depend on the picture of the laptop they present because that's representative of the Model and it's the luck of the fraw which one they pick up off the stack for you.

If there's a problem be ready to work with them to make it right and don't file a complaint unless it comes down to that. I didn't get a valid Win10Pro key with my first one and he worked with me outside ebay (which is against the rules but I caught what he meant) to make it right so they wouldn't see him send me a key. The last one arrived a little late but that was the fault of the Postal Service.

Both run and look like new. The first one stays offline serving as my MP3 player and I've been using the other for daily use the last month or so.  I have screenshots posted of them both at work.


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## Todd McComb (May 19, 2021)

What do people look for in a tower case these days? Ease of manipulation...

Even there, the choices are dizzying.


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## SirDice (May 19, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> So I take it that I shouldn't really worry about ethernet drivers these days?


Intel is always good, except those new 2.5Gbit ones, they're not supported, 1 or 10GBit Intel shouldn't be a problem. 



Todd McComb said:


> What do people look for in a tower case these days? Ease of manipulation...


Lots of spaces for adding case fans both front and back, computers run hot these days, good airflow going in on the front and out the back is important. Lots of space for drives (both 2.5 and 3.5 inch). That's usually it. Only my main desktop is a tower model. All my other machines are in 19" rack mountable cases and I usually outfit those with hot-swappable drive bays so I don't have to take it apart when a drive dies (every drive eventually does).


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## Todd McComb (May 19, 2021)

Where does running hot & lots of fans leave us with noise?


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## covacat (May 19, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Where does running hot & lots of fans leave us with noise?


i had one of those 





						HP xw8600 Workstation Product Specifications | HP® Customer Support
					






					support.hp.com
				



was very quiet (worked very well too) (big fans low rpm)


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## SirDice (May 19, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Where does running hot & lots of fans leave us with noise?


Aftermarket fans are reasonably quiet. I have 3 8cm case fans in my tower and it's super quiet.


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## Todd McComb (May 19, 2021)

I guess my point of view is distorted because my current computer is very loud. That's what I ended up with when I didn't specifically think about it last time.


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## PMc (May 19, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Where does running hot & lots of fans leave us with noise?


I run them only on demand. Boards still have a serial interface, and this provides for two wires that can easily be switched from software. Some BD137 transistor can then switch about 1 Ampere. That way I can monitor all disks via smartctl in addition to the CPU.
Got rid of my temp problems that way; no more of these mishap's:

```
9 Power_On_Hours          -O--C-   089   089   000    -    83114
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        PO--C-   100   100   060    -    0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       -O--CK   100   100   000    -    996
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count -O--CK   082   082   000    -    22181
193 Load_Cycle_Count        -O--C-   082   082   000    -    22182
194 Temperature_Celsius     -O----   176   176   000    -    34 (Min/Max 18/68)
196 Reallocated_Event_Count -O--CK   100   100   000    -    58

0x05  0x020  1              68  ---  Highest Temperature
0x05  0x028  1              18  ---  Lowest Temperature
0x05  0x050  4           30220  ---  Time in Over-Temperature
0x05  0x058  1              60  ---  Specified Maximum Operating Temperature
```


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## mark_j (May 20, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> What do people look for in a tower case these days? Ease of manipulation...
> 
> Even there, the choices are dizzying.


I either used Thermaltake (Soprano the latest used) or Antec cases. The Thermaltake case has a 16+cm front fan that is only heard when I put my ear down directly on it.

Often the case fans (nowadays) are not the problem, the problem is graphics card fans. I always go for cards that are rated between 20 and 30dBA. Fortunately, most cards marketed as quiet meet this (at least when I last bought one). Of course, they would get noisier should you play some graphically intensive game. Equally you could dispense with a graphics card and use the on-board one. That's an area I know nothing about.

Another point is power supply. These can be noisy, so pay a little extra, get a gold+ rated one (basically means converts more voltage and produces less heat). I use Antec and have never had aproblem.

Welcome to the slippery slope of computer purchasing/building.


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## Jose (May 20, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Where does running hot & lots of fans leave us with noise?


I'm using 14 cm Be Quiet! and Noctua fans (1, 2), and have no noise to speak of. The fans that come preinstalled in computer cases are crap and they'll be noisy eventually if they're not noisy right away. My video card is water cooled.


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## SirDice (May 20, 2021)

I do need to replace my fans every so often. My home is quite dusty (it's almost 100 years old) and fans just clog up and start whining after some time. More expensive fans are typically better and will last longer, but those too will need replacing from time to time.


Jose said:


> The fans that come preinstalled in computer cases are crap


Yeah, those usually don't last long in my house. They're easily replaced so it's not that big of an issue for me.


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## Tieks (May 20, 2021)

Bigger fans means less revolutions, hence less wear and noise. The worst fans in terms of noise are the small ones on graphics cards. If you don't play games you could use a passively cooled card or, as mark_j pointed out, go for on-board graphics. Power supplies are equipped with a fan too, don't pick the cheapest one. A good power supply will pay off with less noise and lower energy use.
I have been running two 14 cm fans on the 5 volt line of a molex hdd plug since 2015. Very silent. They are slightly dusty by now. I live in an old house too, but I use a vacuum cleaner once a year.


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## decuser (May 20, 2021)

SirDice said:


> I do need to replace my fans every so often. My home is quite dusty (it's almost 100 years old) and fans just clog up and start whining after some time. More expensive fans are typically better and will last longer, but those too will need replacing from time to time.



I use canned air to blow my systems out every few months and that seems to keep the fans alive a lot longer.


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## Todd McComb (May 20, 2021)

Yes, my intent is the onboard graphics card.  That is what I have been using, assuming it's still going to be good enough for web browsing....


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## decuser (May 20, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Yes, my intent is the onboard graphics card.  That is what I have been using, assuming it's still going to be good enough for web browsing....


 of course it is. Onboard graphics these days are better than specialty graphics cards from back in the day (anybody remember viper)- you can watch 1080p, do limited video processing, and even play games that aren't super demanding.


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## Deleted member 30996 (May 20, 2021)

I use an Opolar gaming fan on my laptops when compiling ports or some of them will overheat and shut down at 100C.

They are well worth the little coinage they cost.


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## mer (May 20, 2021)

I've been using pretty generic systems for a while.  I prefer Gigabyte motherboards, I've had good luck with either Intel or AMD cpus.  I tend to get "1 generation back from latest" because FreeBSD support seems better and I'm not losing anything for a desktop.  Intel i915 integrated graphics work fine, generic Nvidia cards also work fine.  I also tend to max RAM right up front (32GB is plenty for just about everything on a desktop).

Cases:  again, generic mid-tower sizes have always worked for me.  Enough space for a bunch of drives and still enough empty space for airflow.  Make sure to get adapters for SSDs so they you can just fit them in.
Power Supplies:  I tend to spend a bit more money on these up front.  A little bigger and higher quality because they seem to last longer.
Fans:  Noctua NF-F12 fans have always done good for me.  Nice design, quiet so far lasting pretty well.

Fans and Power Supplies, I think "gaming" labelled are reasonable places to start.

Extra NICs:  I've never had an issue with any Intel chipsets in any bus type (PCI, PCIe, etc).

As one who remembers building up x286 systems, the level of integration on todays motherboards/chipsets is amazing;  you wind up with lots of empty space in a case.

My opinions, based on what's worked for me.


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## ralphbsz (May 20, 2021)

decuser said:


> I use canned air to blow my systems out every few months and that seems to keep the fans alive a lot longer.


Yes, or have a compressor and just use shop compressed air. But one thing to be careful of: Don't let fans spin madly. It's fun, they make a nice whining noise, and the extremely high RPM ruin their bearings. So put one finger on the hub of the fan when cleaning it with compressed air.

Oh, and making sure it is clean air (no water or oil) is obvious too.


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## gpw928 (May 20, 2021)

My thoughts on system building are pretty similar to mer.

Fans are one item that I don't skimp on.  I always buy Noktua PWM (4-pin) "premium" fans.  The 4th pin allows automatic control.  Every case has at least two.

I have two mid-tower servers (4 SSDs, and 9 spinning disks), a large monitor, a Raspberry Pi, and a few switches on my UPS, and it's pulling 225 Watts.  Admittedly it would be a lot more on start-up.  But my point is that without high-end video cards, your PSU does not need to be huge (less capacity and more quality is my focus).

Do your power budget carefully, and get the best quality power supply you can afford.  Modular is best.  The last one I bought for a server was a 450W Seasonic Gold.

Minimise the moving parts.  Do you really need spinning disks?  Consider the advantages of a smaller case, and lower power consumption.

Think about whether you want ECC memory, and a motherboard and CPU that supports it.

ATX power supplies are supposed to blow air into the case, and cool all components inside the case using positive air pressure.  Make sure that your PSU and all the fans are cooperating to achieve this outcome (i.e. they must all blow inwards).

You may want USB 3 for backup with external disks.  Do your homework on the motherboard USB ports.  USB 3 is not a single standard (but USB 3.1 Gen 2 is generally compatible with USB 3.2 Gen2).


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## diizzy (May 21, 2021)

Todd McComb
The easy and cost effective solution is to go for a entry level server, it'll do ECC (which you'd want if you do storage) and just work.
While it isn't the most brand spanking new hardware on the market a Dell T40 will probably do the job just fine. You can find the Xeon variants around ~350-400 EUR here in Europe although be aware of the x86 vulns regarding the CPU however this is most likely not an issue for a home user. https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/threads/dell-emc-poweredge-t40.1247593/ will give you most information you'll want/need (use Google translate if you don't speak german)

Other similar variants would be Lenovo ThinkSystem ST50, HPE ProLiant ML30 Gen10 (these might not use Intel NICs), Fujitsu Primergy TX1330 M4

If you don't care about ECC I'd suggest that you look for a business PC model, depending on where you live HP, Dell, Lenovo etc might have online outlets.


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## Todd McComb (May 24, 2021)

I'm not knowledgeable about ECC, so don't know about that....

Are there issues with builtin video on AMD Ryzen motherboards?  So many people seem to think I need a GPU, but I don't know what they think I'm doing... just ordinary web browsing (& text stuff!).  I did note the issue with the 2.5G ethernet drivers.


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## ralphbsz (May 24, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> I'm not knowledgeable about ECC, so don't know about that....



In this case, I will help, and teach you everything you need to know about it: YOU WANT IT, REALLY BAD.

Here's what happens. Computers have been getting bigger, and have more and more memory. Today's file systems use memory very efficiently, as buffer caches: Data that was read or written recently is likely to be re-read soon, so let's keep it in memory; and data that is soon to be written can be held in memory for a while before actually going to disk. The problem is that memory hasn't gotten any more reliable, but we have more of it, and keep data in it for longer: more potential for data corruption. Data on disk is quite reliable, as disk interfaces have good error detection/correction while the data is on the wire, and disks have reasonably good error detection (with a published rate of one bit error per 10^-17 bits, which I believe). This is particularly problematic since the better file systems (such a ZFS) now protect data on disk and over the wire with extra checksums, but data in memory is completely unprotected: so if a bit flips, that corrupted bit will be written to disk, or served to an application.

Enter ECC = Error Correcting Code memory: We store a few extra bits for every word in memory, and that allows the motherboard to (automatically and transparently) correct any single-bit error (one bit in a word damaged), and detect any two-bit error (and typically do something sensible, and crashing the OS is not a bad thing to do, as double bit errors are extremely rare, and recovering fro them is not easy).

Relatively cheap insurance, and it fixes what is today probably the largest source of silent data corruption.


----------



## PMc (May 24, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> I'm not knowledgeable about ECC, so don't know about that....


It's a weird story. Somebody came up with the stance that one must use ECC when using ZFS. It boils down to the claim that ZFS would kind of "amplify" data corruption from memory errros. But that appears to be bogus. 
What remains is that a cosmic ray can and will flip memory cells - and that means data corruption, which, without ECC, will go undetected. But a cosmic ray hits about once a year (except when You're at high altitude) and many memory cells aren't critical - except when You're running ZFS in a fileserver, where most memory is used as file cache. 
So You can calculate the odds.


----------



## bakul (May 24, 2021)

From this paper: https://storage.googleapis.com/pub-tools-public-publication-data/pdf/35162.pdf


> “We find that DRAM error behavior in the field differs in many key aspects from commonly held assumptions. For example, we observe DRAM error rates that are orders of magnitude higher than previously reported, with 25,000 to 70,000 errors per billion device hours per Mbit and more than 8% of DIMMs affected by errors per year. We provide strong evidence that memory errors are dominated by hard errors, rather than soft errors, which previous work suspects to be the dominant error mode. We find that temperature, known to strongly impact DIMM error rates in lab conditions, has a surprisingly small effect on error behavior in the field, when taking all other factors into account. Finally, unlike commonly feared, we don’t observe any indication that newer generations of DIMMs have worse error behavior.



Note that bit flips due to cosmic rays are soft errors.


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## gpw928 (May 24, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Are there issues with builtin video on AMD Ryzen motherboards?  So many people seem to think I need a GPU, but I don't know what they think I'm doing... just ordinary web browsing (& text stuff!).  I did note the issue with the 2.5G ethernet drivers.


I use an  AMD Ryzen 3 3300X 4-Core Processor and AMD X570 motherboard with FreeBSD 12.2 without problems.

The 3300X has no integrated GPU, and I just use a really old ATI Radeon PCIe card.  So I have no experience with integrated graphics.

You don't need a GPU unless you play high-end video games or mint crypto currency.

However you still need graphics for basic web browsing, and  a lot of the Ryzen CPUs come with an integrated GPU, which may be a cost effective way to get video.

Some of the Ryzen 3 CPUs still seem to be in short supply.  If you want to choose one with an integrated GPU, pick one and ask if anyone has one running.


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## Deleted member 30996 (May 24, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> ... but I don't know what they think I'm doing... just ordinary web browsing (& text stuff!).


Laptop.

How much money are you going to spend upgrading the box you've got now with all the nice things suggested in this thread to have a desktop you can do "just ordinary web browsing (& text stuff!)" with?

I have 2 T61 Thinkpads that I paid $50 each for a couple years ago and posted a shot of my ebay page showing the price of one. You can see them both still at work last week in the screenshot thread.

I have the Gateway full sized tall gaming tower that came with Win98SE, a 500MHz Katmai PIII (reported to be NSA Backdoored) and 1GB RAM in my closet. By the time I upgraded it to the specs of the W520 I'm running now I'm pretty sure the price would exceed the $286 I paid for this one.

The W520 has a footprint of approx 15"x10" inches. The tower, monitor and keyboard would be taking up the space the two Thinkpads to my left are sitting in now. The T43 and T400 that is.


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## PMc (May 24, 2021)

bakul said:


> From this paper: https://storage.googleapis.com/pub-tools-public-publication-data/pdf/35162.pdf
> 
> 
> Note that bit flips due to cosmic rays are soft errors.


If I get that right, then "hard error" is something I would simply call "broken device".

But there is one thing strange with this: If this were true, I should have occasional failures that cannot be tracked down to a cause. This is obviousely accepted by the consumer market: if your (Windows etc.) system somehow fails, just do a reboot. But I am running unix because I do not accept it. And, I practically do not experience such errors. I afford the luxury of (almost) always doing a root cause analysis, and they are usually succeessful - i.e. they can be tracked to a software defect, configuration flaw or a defective component (where then replace is successful),

OTOH, I am always running my stuff "on the safe side", not driving it to the limits. And I am indeed a fan of ECC memory, but mostly of regECC, which is slightly slower, but the memory is driven via latches, and so is run under less extreme conditions.

Looking closer into that paper.
They come to more or less the same figure as me: about one error per year (per machine/device). And they don't really know where these come from:


> Conclusion 7: Error rates are unlikely to be dominated
> by soft errors.
> 
> We observe that CE rates are highly correlated with sys-
> ...



Putting it shorter: some chips are crap.


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## Todd McComb (May 24, 2021)

Heh, well, my "web browsing" example is indeed the right reference for my graphic & computational needs.  However this thing will be running 24x7 with various devices behind it, and what I mostly do *at* the desktop is my own writing work, which is neither graphical nor computationally intensive, but I do want good equipment that will last me 10 years.  "Pennies a day" as they say....


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## mer (May 24, 2021)

I'd like to toss out another option instead of a laptop:
NUC format.  If you like a more traditional (monitor, keyboard, etc) layout than a laptop, a NUC works very nicely as a general purpose desktop.  I've got one running an i3 with 16G ram and a 250G mSATA device that works very nicely.  The integrated i915 graphics works fine, plenty of room on the "disk".  NUC is fanless (looks like a big heatsink) so very quiet.  Almost makes me want to replace all the desktops with NUCs and put something like an ixSystems mini in for storage.  Oh, a NUC may be a tad more upfront, but I think you recoup the difference quickly.

Oh, the ECC/cosmic rays discussion:  it happens in the real world.  I've been on the receiving end of it at work a few times.  Pain in the butt to find, take a core file, start walking stack frames and after much eyestrain you find the one stack variable that has a single bit flipped between 2 stack frames.


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## Deleted member 30996 (May 24, 2021)

Well the best I can show is 306 days uptime on a Thinkpad X61 that came with Vista on it that served as my dedicated .mp3 player till it threw a fan error and gracefully shut itself down:






This one and the rest came with Win7 so who knows how much longer any of them will last. But I have 8 of them.


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## ralphbsz (May 25, 2021)

To begin with, I actually run ZFS without ECC. Unfortunately, that's not by choice: If I take all the requirements for my motherboard, and add ECC, then there is no model that will do the job (or at least there wasn't when I bought it, about 4 or 6 years ago). I would like to use ECC, but I can't get there with reasonable effort. It also only has 3 usable GByte of memory.



PMc said:


> It's a weird story. Somebody came up with the stance that one must use ECC when using ZFS. It boils down to the claim that ZFS would kind of "amplify" data corruption from memory errros. But that appears to be bogus.


If you phrase it that way, it is indeed bogus.

But: ZFS is very good at using memory as a buffer cache. We always hear about that from the bad side, when people complain that ZFS and its ARC have eaten too much memory. Look at it from the other side: ZFS is using more memory, for file data buffers,

The error rate of RAM is much higher than cosmic rays make you believe. And I think a lot of "inexplicable" errors and people whining about "low quality Microsoft software" are actually caused by (undetected) memory errors.

But here's the real difference: ZFS is the first free and mass-production file system to have implemented checksum protection for disks, which also protects the path to/from the disk, against undetected data corruption. It used to be that disk were the #1 cause of data corruption (and with it things like file system errors and crashes). With that problem gone, on a ZFS system it makes sense to look at the #2 cause, which is memory errors.

The other thing is that there is so much more memory around, which means that a lot more data is held in memory for the buffer cache, and for longer. I used to run Linux on a 386 with 4 MByte (including XWindows and scientific data analysis), but it was painfully slow, so I upgraded to 16 MByte. Today, consumer laptops are sold with 16 GByte (1024 times more), and servers are measured as 1/4 or 1/2 Terabyte. That makes for a gigantic target for memory errors. Thence the need for protection.


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## covacat (May 25, 2021)

ralphbsz said:


> The other thing is that there is so much more memory around, which means that a lot more data is held in memory for the buffer cache, and for longer. I used to run Linux on a 386 with 4 MByte (including XWindows and scientific data analysis), but it was painfully slow, so I upgraded to 16 MByte. Today, consumer laptops are sold with 16 GByte (1024 times more), and servers are measured as 1/4 or 1/2 Terabyte. That makes for a gigantic target for memory errors. Thence the need for protection.


somehow equivalent to "The faster the computer, the faster it fscks up"


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## Jose (May 25, 2021)

ralphbsz said:


> To begin with, I actually run ZFS without ECC. Unfortunately, that's not by choice: If I take all the requirements for my motherboard, and add ECC, then there is no model that will do the job (or at least there wasn't when I bought it, about 4 or 6 years ago). I would like to use ECC, but I can't get there with reasonable effort. It also only has 3 usable GByte of memory.


Why is it so hard to find reasonably-priced boards that support ECC? The memory market seems to be driven by ever-higher clock frequencies, though I betcha you need very sophisticated benchmarks to notice any difference in speed with faster RAM.



ralphbsz said:


> The error rate of RAM is much higher than cosmic rays make you believe. And I think a lot of "inexplicable" errors and people whining about "low quality Microsoft software" are actually caused by (undetected) memory errors.


I realized this when I started playing World of Warcraft on my Windows 98SE desktops at the time it came out. I noticed the one machine with ECC would never crash while playing the game, but the other one did. Clean install made no difference. After some trial and error, I found several bad sticks of RAM that would "work" just fine until I played the game for a while.

Edit: All the bad sticks would passed every memtest I could find with flying colors. They had to be stressed for hours before they became flaky.


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## diizzy (May 25, 2021)

Jose said:


> Why is it so hard to find reasonably-priced boards that support ECC? The memory market seems to be driven by ever-higher clock frequencies, though I betcha you need very sophisticated benchmarks to notice any difference in speed with faster RAM.
> 
> 
> I realized this when I started playing World of Warcraft on my Windows 98SE desktops at the time it came out. I noticed the one machine with ECC would never crash while playing the game, but the other one did. Clean install made no difference. After some trial and error, I found several bad sticks of RAM that would "work" just fine until I played the game for a while.
> ...


It's not? Most (not all) ASRock and ASUS AM4 boards using B550 or X570 supports ECC


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## Jose (May 26, 2021)

diizzy said:


> It's not? Most (not all) ASRock and ASUS AM4 boards using B550 or X570 supports ECC


Those are very new AMD core logic chipsets. Also, I avoid Asrock motherboards, the only two that I've bought have flaky BIOSes. I love ASUS boards, but they tend to be expensive.


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## gpw928 (May 26, 2021)

The last time I checked, AMD leave the ECC componentry in their Ryzen CPUs and chip sets, but they don't test it.

It was left to the individual motherboard manufacturers to do that.

I don't know if that policy has changed recently, but would be reluctant to believe it has without seeing a statement form AMD.

There's certainly clear evidence that Ryzen ECC could be problematic, on at least some motherboards.

I would not assume that a Ryzen motherboard would perform ECC correctly unless I saw a clear statement from the manufacturer (beyond the assertion that ECC DIMMs will fit into the memory slots).


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## gpw928 (May 26, 2021)

Oh, and... most motherboard manufacturers publish a Qualified Vendors List (QVL) of memory modules that they have had tested with the motherboard.

If you can find ECC memory in the QVL, then you have some basis for confidence.


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## diizzy (May 26, 2021)

https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1045186/ ?


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## gpw928 (May 27, 2021)

Thank you for that.  I see that it's quite recent, and relates only to B550 and X570 chipsets, and only to some CPUs.  But it is certainly good news.


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## Todd McComb (May 27, 2021)

So are these boards supported by FreeBSD?  What I have now is an ASUS Athlon motherboard....


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## gpw928 (May 27, 2021)

I use an AMD Ryzen 3 3300X 4-Core Processor and AMD X570 motherboard with FreeBSD 12.2, without problems, on my ZFS server.

The old AM3 motherboard died suddenly, and had to be replaced quickly, last October.  My ECC research on AMD X570 back then was inconclusive.  I really hoped it would work, but was not sure.

The new motherboard (ASUS ROG STRIX X-570-F Gaming) has PCI 4.0, two M2 slots, eight SATA headers, external USB 3.2 (Gen 1 and Gen 2), and (I now know) ECC capability!

It's a little expensive, but well suited to ZFS server, since, with 2 x M2 slots, and 8 x SATA ports, I don't need to use an additional disk controller.  Plus I have PCI 4.0 moving forward.

The USB 3.2 Gen 2 ports allow me to export ZFS snapshots to external USB disks.  I use USB 3.1 Gen 2 to SATA adapters with free standing 3.5" SATA disks for this.

The re-build is still in progress.  I used some non-ECC memory, and still use the very old LSI SAS2008 disk controller for the ZFS tank, and the root is still on a pair of 2.5" SSDs (separate ZFS mirror).  I need to buy some M.2 SSDs for the root mirror and ECC DDR4, plus retire the LSI SAS2008 to complete the rebuild.


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## Todd McComb (May 27, 2021)

That is more or less the price range I had in mind....

So I guess I am getting closer to putting this together....


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## gpw928 (May 27, 2021)

My only reservation is that I have not verified that FreeBSD will boot from an M.2 SSD.  Also note that:

the AMD Ryzen 3 3300X is currently a pretty sweet spot in CPU price/performance, but had no GPU;
so you have to use one of those PCIe slots for a graphics card; and
not all PCIe slots on the ASUS ROG STRIX X-570-F Gaming are necessarily usable (read the fine print very carefully).


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## jmos (May 27, 2021)

gpw928 said:


> I use an AMD Ryzen 3 3300X 4-Core Processor and AMD X570 motherboard […]


Just a few weeks ago I didn't catch the PCIe 4 ride, and stayed on the "old" chipsets; The only part that would make use of it would be a NVMe disk, and all my researches told me: No one has real benefit of transfer rates above 2.5 GB/s in home scenarios (and even PCIe 3 goes up to nearly 4 GB/s). On the other side those chipsets need bigger heatsinks (and some even fans!). That means more power is used as a heating. Also a closer look on the available NVMe disks tells me that PCIe 4 has to be cooled, while my NVMe disk with PCIe 3 stays always below 40°C (at the moment and normally: 31°C). Comparings with the official power consumptions of these components didn't reflect those facts, but I think that belongs to the testings scenarios… Reality:

I'm using two NVMe disks: Corsair MP510 1,92 TB (PCIe 3, without heatsink), and Corsair MP600 2 TB (PCIe 4, with heatsink). The newer MP600 should use less power, but on the same chipset it is always ~8°C warmer than the MP510 - and that despite of its heatsink. And so far I cannot notice anything of the fact that the MP600 can make use of PCIe 3s furthest corner.

So I still wouldn't go with a X570 (or any other PCIe 4) mainboard. And when the word "home" is used I would go with the lowest heating, and fans as quiet as possiple (or even fanless where possible). Since ~10 years I don't use the fastest components I can get for my money, but the most usefull.


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## diizzy (May 27, 2021)

PCIe 4.0 support is troublesome although AMD is working on fixing it however I highly doubt you'll notice a difference in performance in the end.


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## Todd McComb (May 27, 2021)

OK, noted. I'm sure PCIe 3 is sufficient for me.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 14, 2021)

So please let me clarify, a PCIe 4 might not work, or I simply won't get full performance?


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## diizzy (Jun 14, 2021)

People have reported instability with the USB subsystem (random disconnects) related to PCIe 4.0 and AMD have released BIOS patches for it however it doesn't seem to be the proper fix for everyone. Keep in mind that X570 also have worse SATA performance B550 in some cases.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 14, 2021)

So maybe B550 then....

What about the 2.5G ethernet issue? If that is a problem, does it fall back to 1G well enough?

I ask these questions because what is available & on sale now, etc....

USB I don't use much, so I don't know if I care.  Presumably stability will increase with time, i.e. new OS versions?

Or maybe I need to keep looking at older motherboards....


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## diizzy (Jun 14, 2021)

1. https://reviews.freebsd.org/D30668
2. You will care if your keyboard, usb drive etc randomly disconnects. It's a hardware related issue, not OS but AMD are working on it.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 14, 2021)

So that link is telling me the 2.5G ethernet is now supported?

I'm not accustomed to reading those pages.  To what version of FreeBSD does that refer?


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## Todd McComb (Jun 14, 2021)

Maybe I should be thinking B450? But is there ECC?


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

It's patch that needs a review (preferably) to be committed to the tree (-HEAD branch) and may be backported to 13-STABLE (not guaranteed).

I would personally take a closer look at:
Asus ROG Strix B550-F / Asus ROG Strix B550-A (color schema seems to be the only difference)
Asus ROG Strix B550-E (3x PCIe 16x slots (all are not 16x however)), Intel WiFi but don't expect support anytime soon
Depending on what kind of requirements regarding expansion you have
These all depend on the 2.5G driver however depending on what revision you get you may need to do some additional work
Ref: https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/k4alab/is_the_i225v_chip_issue_resolved/ (Google if you want more information)
Regarding ECC Asus says this: https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1045186/ + specs on product page

Most other B550 boards comes with Realtek LAN which can be a very mixed bag (prepare yourself to get a separate nic)
If you're deadset on 13 or such you might need to get a temporary NIC at least.

Here's a pretty nice summary of all boards:


			https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wmsTYK9Z3-jUX5LGRoFnsZYZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/edit
		


I wouldn't recommend getting a B450 board unless you're on a very tight budget and I have no idea about ECC support on those boards.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

But aren't you the same person saying the keyboard might randomly disconnect on a B550 system?


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

And I don't mind getting an extra card to do what I want, just as long as it's supported and there's somewhere to plug it in!


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## gpw928 (Jun 15, 2021)

If you need PCIe bus (and SATA) capacity, the X570 chipset has a lot more to offer than B550 (which admittedly has 2.5 Gb Ethernet -- but you have to be able to use it).

I now have two X570 motherboards.  One runs FreeBSD 12.2 and the other runs Debian 10.  They run a variety of legacy PCIe cards (Intel Ethernet, LSI SATA/SAS, ATI and Nvidia video) without issues.  However I don't have any PCIe 4.0 cards.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

Ha ha, I feel like I go in circles!  But thank you for the comments....  If getting PCIe 4.0 is not going to be a problem, then that makes sense to me.  I do want the possibility of various expansion, so want enough slots.


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

gpw928 said:


> If you need PCIe bus (and SATA) capacity, the X570 chipset has a lot more to offer than B550 (which admittedly has 2.5 Gb Ethernet -- but you have to be able to use it).
> 
> I now have two X570 motherboards.  One runs FreeBSD 12.2 and the other runs Debian 10.  They run a variety of legacy PCIe cards (Intel Ethernet, LSI SATA/SAS, ATI and Nvidia video) without issues.  However I don't have any PCIe 4.0 cards.


SATA performance is however quite noticable lower on X570 (appears to be a design issue), chipset fan (in most cases) and you're usually fine with B550 in most cases despite having fewer channels.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

So will FreeBSD boot from an M2 slot?


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## Jose (Jun 15, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> So will FreeBSD boot from an M2 slot?


Yes.


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## astyle (Jun 15, 2021)

Athlon??? that's an old name... used to be 'crappy server' hardware from AMD back in 1990s, but the name Athlon recently revived by AMD for lower-end chips with integrated graphics.

I'd stay away from newer ROG Strix line - it's overpriced by a pretty fat margin - ROG Strix GPUs are roughly a 30% price premium over Tuf Gaming cards on Amazon.com, and for motherboards, the price disparity on Amazon is even worse - ROG Strix can be 200-300% more expensive than a Prime board with similar specs. A board that takes a Threadripper will drive the price north of $500, easy.

I paid $90 for my B350-Prime back in 2017, and promptly fried it with a crappy $19.99 PSU from Apevia. Fortunately, components attached to the motherboard did not fry, and I became a believer in Asus motherboards. Had to get a replacement B350-Prime, and a $40 EVGA (known good brand) PSU.

I should have invested in a better GPU when they were reasonably cheap back in 2017... my Asus Radeon RX 550 4 GB was around $100 back then - and now a Radeon RX 550 cannot be found on the Internet for less than $250. Gonna wait until next year to build my next rig, I guess...


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

astyle 
Please actually look before stating such facts, there's no premium in this case at all since there are no equivalent boards available. See the docs.google link or Asus website for reference


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## astyle (Jun 15, 2021)

diizzy said:


> astyle
> Please actually look before stating such facts, there's no premium in this case at all since there are no equivalent boards available. See the docs.google link or Asus website for reference



ROG Strix RX 6900 XT on Amazon: $2,850
Tuf Gaming RX 6900 XT on Amazon: $2,450 --> Otherwise same cards!
Tuf Gaming X570 motherboard, no wifi: $177
Tuf Gaming B550 motherboard, no wifi: $155
ROG Strix X570 motherboard, no wifi: $322
ROG Strix B550 motherboard, no wifi: $178.
Prices picked up in the last 10 minutes of this post. ROG Strix line does command a premium over Tuf Gaming, and I have yet to see why. Most egregious premium is in the x570 motherboard.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

I'm being told that neither the B550 nor X570 motherboards support using the onboard graphics with Ryzen 3000 CPUs. So I would need a separate graphics card with either chipset. Does that sound right?


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## astyle (Jun 15, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> I'm being told that neither the B550 nor X570 motherboards support using the onboard graphics with Ryzen 3000 CPUs. So I would need a separate graphics card with either chipset. Does that sound right?


Not correct. integrated graphics are on the CPU. Some Ryzen 3 chips come with integrated graphics, and the more recent Athlon chips come with integrated graphics. As long as the chip physically fits into an AM4 socket, you're good to go with either B550 or x570 motherboard. I'd recommend B550, though, it's cheaper.


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

astyle said:


> ROG Strix RX 6900 XT on Amazon: $2,850
> Tuf Gaming RX 6900 XT on Amazon: $2,450 --> Otherwise same cards!
> Tuf Gaming X570 motherboard, no wifi: $177
> Tuf Gaming B550 motherboard, no wifi: $155
> ...



I don't see anyone talking about video cards but perhaps I missed something (ie it's irrelevant) same goes for X570 motherboards (which weren't the discussion).

Now, comparing your two examples which would be the B550 -F model I listed and B550-Plus you're referring to.
TUF lacks a 1x 4-pin power connector, comes with Realtek LAN (instead of Intel on the B550 -F model), slightly worse audio codec
I honestly don't see how ~20$ is a Premium at all given that you get noticably better LAN, slight better power distribution and slightly better audio codec


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> I'm being told that neither the B550 nor X570 motherboards support using the onboard graphics with Ryzen 3000 CPUs. So I would need a separate graphics card with either chipset. Does that sound right?


AMDs marketing division had a bit of fun when naming their CPUs, Ryzen CPUs ending with G have integrated graphics and "all" motherboards supports integrated graphics.
If you'd want a Ryzen 3000 (Zen 2) CPU with graphics you'd need ot look at 4000-series. 3000G-series would be Zen+ ie Ryzen 2000-series)









						Zen 3 - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Zen 2 - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				








						Zen+ - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

So I was also told I'd need a 3000 series CPU, that 4000 wouldn't work with FreeBSD.  And it looks like 3000G series don't do ECC? I guess because it is "really" a 2000 series....


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> So I was also told I'd need a 3000 series CPU, that 4000 wouldn't work with FreeBSD.  And it looks like 3000G series don't do ECC? I guess because it is "really" a 2000 series....


I would imagine that "wouldn't work" possibly refers to video as Ryzen 5000-series worked in 12.2.





						Running BSDs On The AMD Ryzen 5000 Series - FreeBSD vs. Linux Benchmarks - Phoronix
					






					www.phoronix.com
				



That said, I haven't tried itmyself. Here's what Asus says about ECC support in general, https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1045186/


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## jmos (Jun 15, 2021)

astyle said:


> Athlon??? that's an old name... used to be 'crappy server' hardware from AMD back in 1990s, but the name Athlon recently revived by AMD for lower-end chips with integrated graphics.


I really wouldn't call my 2017 bought Athlon X4 845 "crappy hardware from the 90s" (also my 2010 Athlon II X2 250e). You haven't used any of the 2010er Athlons, am I right? IMO they were much better than their reputation.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

(I have an Athlon now!)

So maybe it's foolish to be insisting on graphics from the CPU when I can just get an inexpensive PCIe graphics card to do web browsing?


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

The FM-platform were a disaster for AMD in general, most cases Intel's counterparts (price-wise) were noticably faster


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## astyle (Jun 15, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> (I have an Athlon now!)
> 
> So maybe it's foolish to be insisting on graphics from the CPU when I can just get an inexpensive PCIe graphics card to do web browsing?


Ummm.. this is exactly where you'd be better off with integrated graphics... those are on the cheaper CPU's. PCIe card (i.e., GPU) prices are through the roof right now, and the cards themselves are scarce. Save your dough for next year.


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## astyle (Jun 15, 2021)

diizzy said:


> The FM-platform were a disaster for AMD in general, most cases Intel's counterparts (price-wise) were noticably faster


Somebody was telling me to go get the links when I started making claims about prices. Your turn to do that, diizzy .


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

So what's the deal with the X570 PRO mbs that have both Intel & Realtek ethernet?


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

And my issue with integrated graphics is in getting a CPU/mb that is supported by FreeBSD and does ECC.  Adding the graphics to that equation is starting to seem like a complication.

Edit: I guess I can get a 3000 G series & use a PRO motherboard.  Or I can get a non-G and get a cheap external graphic card.  Per the ASUS ECC chart posted above anyway.


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## astyle (Jun 15, 2021)

Don't worry too much about LAN speed on a motherboard - that's only really relevant if you run active enterprise-grade databases that crowds of people have to use. For home use (even if you run a server), realistically speaking, what matters is the speed of the Internet connection from your ISP.

I like the idea of ECC, but it's usually only available on server-grade hardware that costs thousands of dollars (Think AMD EPYC 7003) and may not even be readily available on Amazon.

For Integrated Graphics, FreeBSD generally does better with Intel chips, but recent low-end AMD Athlon chips (like this Athlon Gold with Radeon Vega Graphics) should play fine with FreeBSD.


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## astyle (Jun 15, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> get a cheap external graphic card.


no such animal. I said so earlier, graphics card prices are through the roof right now.


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> So what's the deal with the X570 PRO mbs that have both Intel & Realtek ethernet?


Since they're usually older they come with the older I211-AT which is well supported, avoid Realtek like the plague and those are usually found only on value/el-cheapo models. In many causes getting a separate NIC will drive the price up to the same level as one with Intel nic built in but they X570 boards are however usually more pricey. I would advice you to carefully evaluate going below Zen 2 hardware as performance will suffer. If you can get hold of a fairly new (like 5-7y old video card) that's a better option than getting a CPU with integrated graphics.

If you don't need all the performance perhaps a prebuilt system with an Intel H or T-CPU would be a good tradeoff in terms of price / performance and compatibility? I still think a Dell T40 or such might be a viable option tbh.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

I guess I was thinking a pre-built system would only cost more....

I don't need a ton of performance, it's true. I'm mostly just concerned with reliability (e.g. per NICs).

Was thinking an older graphics card wouldn't even be desirable for crypto & such, so no reason for a high price....


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## diizzy (Jun 15, 2021)

I would argue that https://slickdeals.net/f/13561696-d...-e-2224g-8gb-1tb-hdd-dvdrw-no-os-349-free-s-h is pretty hard to beat (not available right now however) unless you have specific requirements..


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## astyle (Jun 15, 2021)

diizzy said:


> going below Zen 2 hardware as performance will suffer. If you can get hold of a fairly new (like 5-7y old video card) that's a better option than getting a CPU with integrated graphics.


Mine is Ryzen 5 1400, which I think is a Zen 1... I was an eager early adopter, but even this has served me surprisingly well. 

Todd McComb : Don't go too old on cards, either - NVidia recently dropped support for Kepler GPU's, and that was on Phoronix... Older cards may or may not have PCIe 3 or 4 compatibility. Even if you have software drivers, hardware compatibility is plenty important. And even there, GPU's with just 512 or even 256 MB (NOT GB) of RAM are going for ~$100


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

I guess maybe I forget about ECC, and the rest is pretty much decided then....


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## Todd McComb (Jun 15, 2021)

So just to clarify, any Ryzen 3000 series processor with included Radeon Vega graphics should work on any of the B450/X470, B550/X570 motherboards?  I.e. if it's graphics included in an AM4 slot, it'll work?


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## Todd McComb (Jun 16, 2021)

Well there's an interesting chart on


			https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570
		


It says yes to X570 for 3000 graphics APUs, but no for B550.


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## gpw928 (Jun 16, 2021)

That


Todd McComb said:


> Well there's an interesting chart on
> 
> 
> https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570
> ...


I wonder if that's wrong or recently changed, since it's directly contradicted by the tech spec for the ROG STRIX B550-E GAMING motherboard, which explicitly claims support for an "integrated graphics processor". The tech spec also indicates the presence of physical HDMI and Display Port adapters on the "Back I/O Ports" which could only be used by a graphics processor integrated with the CPU.


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## astyle (Jun 16, 2021)

gpw928 said:


> That
> 
> I wonder if that's wrong or recently changed, since it's directly contradicted by the tech spec for the ROG STRIX B550-E GAMING motherboard, which explicitly claims support for an "integrated graphics processor". The tech spec also indicates the presence of physical HDMI and Display Port adapters on the "Back I/O Ports" which could only be used by a graphics processor integrated with the CPU.


Thanks for pointing that out - Looks like I can make a couple conclusions:

For OP right now, it makes more sense to get an x470 motherboard (widest compatibility).
For me - My board is a b350, so I can go up to Ryzen 3000 (both with and without integrated graphics), but if I want a Ryzen 5000 series, I should be prepared to shell out for an x570 or b550 motherboard.


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## diizzy (Jun 16, 2021)

Just read what that CPU support actually is on the manufactorers website for said mainboard and it makes no sense getting x470 today unless it's dirt cheap.


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## olli@ (Jun 16, 2021)

For a home server that runs 24/7, I recommend something that is small, quiet and doesn’t consume much power. For example, one of the mini PCs from MinisForum that is based on a mobile CPU. They have models with 2 network ports, and even space for up to three storage devices (one NVMe SSD + two 2.5” SATA), and if you need more, you can always attach disks via USB3. I particularly like their HM50 model; it has a good 6-core mobile Ryzen with a large 10cm fan that is very quiet. It’s probably also suitable as a desktop PC – it supports up to three (!) UHD/4k screens, and the box is small enough (15cm × 15cm) that you can attach it on the VESA mounts on the back of your screen.


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## diizzy (Jun 16, 2021)

olli@ said:


> For a home server that runs 24/7, I recommend something that is small, quiet and doesn’t consume much power. For example, one of the mini PCs from MinisForum that is based on a mobile CPU. They have models with 2 network ports, and even space for up to three storage devices (one NVMe SSD + two 2.5” SATA), and if you need more, you can always attach disks via USB3. I particularly like their HM50 model; it has a good 6-core mobile Ryzen with a large 10cm fan that is very quiet. It’s probably also suitable as a desktop PC – it supports up to three (!) UHD/4k screens, and the box is small enough (15cm × 15cm) that you can attach it on the VESA mounts on the back of your screen.


Except that USB is unreliable as f for storage especially with enforced spin-downs randomly and you can most likely pretty much forget any kind of aftermarket service. Since they don't list chipset used I'm going assume that they're using Realtek NICs have not that great track record especially on FreeBSD.


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## olli@ (Jun 16, 2021)

diizzy said:


> Except that USB is unreliable as f for storage especially with enforced spin-downs randomly and you can most likely pretty much forget any kind of aftermarket service.


USB storage works very well. For example, I have several Samsung T5 that I use for data exchange between FreeBSD and other systems, and one of them is connected to my WiFi router (FritzBox) for NAS and media server. The only issue is that FreeBSD does not support the UAS protocoll (UASP), so it falls back to the old bulk-only protocoll (BOT). This means I only get about 120 MB/s from the T5 (it’s much faster on Windows). Not a big deal for me, though. Most importantly these things are rock-stable.
 
BTW, Samsung provides a warranty of 3 years for these products. So far, none of them has failed me (I own four T5 of varying capacities, and one T7, and I use them a lot).
 


> Since they don't list chipset used I'm going assume that they're using Realtek NICs have not that great track record especially on FreeBSD.


That was the case with the old 8129/8139 chips (using the rl(4) driver), twenty years ago. They had a lot of issues. But recent Realtek chips work fine with FreeBSD.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 16, 2021)

I guess my only reason to choose x470 would be if x570 is not quite stable or supported in ways I might need. Presumably the older board will have fewer question marks....


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## diizzy (Jun 16, 2021)

B550 (which would be a better choice than X570 imho) appears to work just fine (except for LAN for which there is no driver by default), no need to find an old X470 board.
https://www.truenas.com/community/threads/freenas-installation-failed-network.87700/ etc


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## Todd McComb (Jun 16, 2021)

On a different topic, are there any compatibility issues with optical drives?  As noted I want to get a new/faster one while I'm doing this, since I still receive optical media.


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## astyle (Jun 16, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> On a different topic, are there any compatibility issues with optical drives?  As noted I want to get a new/faster one while I'm doing this, since I still receive optical media.


If you do an internal DVD drive (which connects via IDE cables to the motherboard), there's no compatibility issues to worry about. Back in the day, I could even boot FreeBSD off an external USB DVD drive, but in that case, correctly configuring the drive had nothing to do with FreeBSD per se. If you want to attach an external DVD drive via USB, the handbook will be helpful in figuring out how to do that. But no special drivers are needed, just a bit of attention to the Handbook. Brand of the drive just doesn't matter.


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## gpw928 (Jun 16, 2021)

Optical drives these days use SATA.  I'd be quite surprised if you had any issues.  But I don't have any optical drives on my FreeBSD X570 system.  I do on a Debian X570 system (running MythTV with a Blu-Ray) and it works fine.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 17, 2021)

Yes, I mean an internal drive. I don't really intend any external drives etc., but who knows down the road I guess.


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## diizzy (Jun 17, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> On a different topic, are there any compatibility issues with optical drives?  As noted I want to get a new/faster one while I'm doing this, since I still receive optical media.


Works fine, I've used both PATA and SATA internal ones with USB-adapters (SATA adapters might need a new firmware). You might want to do some research about drives though, in general old ones are better than new ones and if you want a bluray unit Asus BW-16D1HT is one of the last models where you can make use of a "loophole" for reading blurays (https://forum.makemkv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19113 , https://www.dvd-cloner.com/knowledge/uhd-friendly-drive-list_377.html).


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## olli@ (Jun 17, 2021)

I’ve got an external BD drive connected via eSATA (not USB). Works fine with FreeBSD, too.


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## Jose (Jun 17, 2021)

I just buy reasonable DVD R/W drives and haven't had one not work in a really long time.

```
cd0 at ahcich2 bus 0 scbus2 target 0 lun 0
cd0: <HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GH24NSC0 LY00> Removable CD-ROM SCSI device
cd0: Serial Number KLIJ9P14455
cd0: 150.000MB/s transfers (SATA 1.x, UDMA6, ATAPI 12bytes, PIO 8192bytes)
cd0: 0MB (1 0 byte sectors)
```


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## Todd McComb (Jun 22, 2021)

I assume getting a PCIe v. 1.0a NIC will not be an issue?


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## diizzy (Jun 22, 2021)

Usually not, just being very dated


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## Todd McComb (Jun 22, 2021)

Well I am not understanding why the newer ones are so expensive, I guess.

Edit: I guess because they do 10G, but my internet is not as fast as that anyway, obviously.


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## diizzy (Jun 22, 2021)

..or just get a pulled NIC from a server etc


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## gpw928 (Jun 23, 2021)

diizzy said:


> ..or just get a pulled NIC from a server etc


I have quite a few Intel PRO/1000 single, dual, and quad port Ethernet cards that came from decommissioned servers via eBay.

I have never had a problem.  But do look at the Intel spec sheet carefully before buying.  The multi-port cards don't necessarily have enough grunt to drive all ports at full speed.  This generally comes down to the number of Gigabit controller chips soldered onto the board.  My single port cards have one.  The quad port cards have two.  All this means is that to get full throughput, I only use two of the four ports on each quad port card.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 30, 2021)

Which video output port should I be looking to use with my old VGA monitor, "HDMI port" or "Display port"?

So just get a simple adapter?

What about an old KVM switch (only for purposes of doing the config from old->new),  slap a video adapter on it?


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## astyle (Jun 30, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Which video output port should I be looking to use with my old VGA monitor, "HDMI port" or "Display port"?
> 
> So just get a simple adapter?
> 
> What about an old KVM switch (only for purposes of doing the config from old->new),  slap a video adapter on it?


You might need to buy an adapter... VGA port is shaped differently than HDMI or DP. If your monitor only has a VGA port, but your PC does not, then you need an adapter. You can get those from Amazon for about $15-20. A KVM port might work for than, but only if it has both VGA and (HDMI or DP).


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## Todd McComb (Jun 30, 2021)

Should I prefer DP or HDMI?

And the KVM question is separate, to use both systems at once temporarily....


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## diizzy (Jun 30, 2021)

Won't matter, I would however recommend to get a "branded" one such as one by HP, Dell, Lenovo instead of some random cheap run of the mill as they tend to be dodgy a best.
In general though if your monitor only has VGA I would seriously recommend you to upgrade, it's going to save a lot of eye-strain.


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## Todd McComb (Jun 30, 2021)

Actually I guess my monitor has HDMI, but my old computer has the VGA port.

So trying to figure out how to transition this....


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## diizzy (Jun 30, 2021)

Get a HDMI cable or DisplayPort to HDMI (latter is more expensive), done?


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## Todd McComb (Jun 30, 2021)

The transition involves using both computers simultaneously to copy/configure for the new, so switching (for a short time...) between the two. With one having VGA port & one HDMI, this seems to be a challenge for KVM.


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## Jose (Jun 30, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> The transition involves using both computers simultaneously to copy/configure for the new, so switching (for a short time...) between the two. With one having VGA port & one HDMI, this seems to be a challenge for KVM.


Yeah. Two monitors, keyboards, and mice might actually be easier.

Can you ssh to one from the other?


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## Todd McComb (Jul 1, 2021)

I don't want to buy another monitor obviously....

Yeah, maybe I just plan to unplug the k/v/m from the old computer and access it via ssh....

Not very elegant, especially since I intend to take my time getting things configured to my liking, but I suppose it'll work....


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## astyle (Jul 1, 2021)

Jose said:


> Yeah. Two monitors, keyboards, and mice might actually be easier.
> 
> Can you ssh to one from the other?


That takes either a crossover cable or going via a router. 

Back to monitors: You have two ends of the cable to check: one for monitor, and one for PC. And don't confuse monitor cable with network cable.


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## Jose (Jul 1, 2021)

If you have monitor with VGA and HDMI inputs you could conceivable connect it to to both computers and switch back and forth using the monitor's input settings. You'd still need two keyboards. Still sounds like a pain.


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## astyle (Jul 1, 2021)

Jose said:


> If you have monitor with VGA and HDMI inputs you could conceivable connect it to to both computers and switch back and forth using the monitor's input settings. You'd still need two keyboards. Still sounds like a pain.


Actually, that's the case for a KVM switch...


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## Todd McComb (Jul 2, 2021)

Well I ordered all this stuff today. Hopefully it goes smoothly. Thanks for the discussion.

(I don't know what to make of the reported delivery times via newegg. It might be a while before I'm building this thing....)


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## olli@ (Jul 5, 2021)

Just a small – but important – note on converters …

Usually, signal converters can be used in one direction _only_. For example, a VGA-to-HDMI converter will _not_ work as HDMI-to-VGA (except if it’s explicitly bidirectional, but these are very expensive). So be sure to buy the right one.

Unfortunately, vendors don’t all use the word “to” in the same sense. In some cases, “VGA-_to_-HDMI” refers to the direction of the video signal, meaning VGA on the PC and HDMI on the monitor. But in some other cases, the same name refers to the direction of the peripheral connection, so it’s VGA on the monitor and HDMI on the PC. So you have to read the description of the adapter carefully, in order to find out what connector is supposed to connect to what side.

Of course, all of that doesn’t apply to passive converters, like DVI to HDMI, or VGA to DVI(-A). These are always bidirectional because they don’t contain electronics for converting signals.


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## mtu (Jul 5, 2021)

olli@ said:


> Of course, all of that doesn’t apply to passive converters, like DVI to HDMI, or VGA to DVI(-A). These are always bidirectional because they don’t contain electronics for converting signals.


They still manage to introduce directionality, by having a plug/socket direction


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## astyle (Jul 5, 2021)

mtu said:


> They still manage to introduce directionality, by having a plug/socket direction


Well, if you mess up even the socket direction, there's always a cheap coupler/direction changer plug you can buy. I think the important point that people tend to miss is that cables have two (2) ends to check, not one (1).


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## Todd McComb (Aug 23, 2021)

OK, after some delays in shipping, taking a vacation, waiting for my son to visit to help with physical build....

Installing FreeBSD 12.2 today.  But I have an issue with the
Intel Pro/1000 Intel PRO/1000 PT Dual Port Server Adapter EXPI9402PT​This is an older card (PCIe2) but I thought it should be compatible with my X570 motherboard?

Anyway, it shows in dmesg as em0/em1 so that all looks good. But no internet, and in fact the little lights next to the network port don't stay lit.

Is there something I need to enable for compatibility? Or maybe it's just a bad card?


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## Todd McComb (Aug 23, 2021)

Alright, well, after trying a dozen different combos of plugging cables etc., and giving up, and using the onboard re0 interface instead, which promptly worked....

I tried plugging a cable into the dual Intel again, and now the lights are on.  (The same cable as I started with.)

So I'm very confused.


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## astyle (Aug 23, 2021)

X570 boards usually have perfectly capable onboard ethernet ports. Unless you actually need more than one ethernet port on your rig, I'd just skip that Intel server adapter, and let a router handle the networking duties. 

Sometimes, a reboot/power cycle wakes some odd circuit up, and it begins to work. Maybe that's what happened in your case.


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## diizzy (Aug 23, 2021)

There are a number of fixes in 13-STABLE so if you're able just try to boot the installer and see if you get a connection. I would also try another cable and/or another port on the switch/gateway if possible.


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## Todd McComb (Aug 23, 2021)

Yes, I guess it needed to be woken up somehow.  I'd tried various ports/cables/etc already....

(Yes, I need 2 nics to run my home network off this thing.)


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## Jose (Aug 27, 2021)

It should work with the em(4) driver. Others on the forum have had luck with it:








						Does that controller work for us?
					

Anybody know such a thing and if it may work with FreeBSD (amd64)?  https://www.ebay.de/itm/Quad-Port-Gigabit-Ethernetadapter-Intel-4-PORT-PRO-1000-PT-PCIe-x4/124260093026?hash=item1cee7a8c62:g:t9EAAOSwfkVfDdPt  I currently have a bunch of network connectors (for telephony etc) on PCI-X64 cards...




					forums.freebsd.org
				




Is it possible the card itself is bad? Those do seem to be pretty old.


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## Todd McComb (Sep 2, 2021)

Well it turns out that this system requires 13.0 in order to run Xorg (in other than "frame buffer" mode).  That's because of the onboard Vega Radeon graphics with the Ryzen CPU.

I wanted to be conservative on my version choice, with 12.2, and that turned out to be unworkable due to "drm-kmod" driver needed being too old in 12.x system.  So after carefully setting up a new 12.2 system over the course of a couple of weeks, I hastily made a 13.0 system today. And it does run Xorg. (Now I just have to think what I forgot when being hasty!)


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## Todd McComb (Sep 2, 2021)

(I did have everything else working the way I wanted it, other than X, when I moved to that step. Oh well.)


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## astyle (Sep 2, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> (I did have everything else working the way I wanted it, other than X, when I moved to that step. Oh well.)


Next up, ZFS, bectl, and Poudriere.  Not even Linux can boast of such conveniences.


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## Todd McComb (Sep 2, 2021)

Ha, well, I've been running FreeBSD since the 90s. Getting the right hardware configured drives me nuts, but once we're in software, I do OK.


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## astyle (Sep 2, 2021)

Todd McComb said:


> Ha, well, I've been running FreeBSD since the 90s. Getting the right hardware configured drives me nuts, but once we're in software, I do OK.


FreeBSD used to really lag in hardware support - but these days, it's catching up to  recent hardware very nicely.


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