# Are liquor stores really essential businesses?



## Phishfry (Mar 27, 2020)

Virginia and North Carolina both have State run liquor store monopolies. No private stores can sell liquor.
Now North Carolina and Virginia have gone into lock-down ordering businesses like hair salons and bowling alleys to close.
Yet both states exempted their liquor stores.
Am I crazy to think this is so wrong?


			Legal Announcement - NC ABCC
		

Closing private businesses but allowing their own monopolies to remain open to the public seems ignorant.
I think that state mandated closed businesses have a legitimate beef here. Perhaps a legal dispute.

We need to make sure that people stay healthy and not drunk during a state of emergency.
The liquor stores close during hurricanes but stay open during a medical emergency. That is ludicrous.

My feeling is that we should also stop the sales of cigarettes. Last thing we need during a medical crisis is people polluting their lungs.

What do you think?


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## Alain De Vos (Mar 27, 2020)

Here barbers are closed. Next month I have a Robinson Crusoe look.
Here everything is allowed to be opened if the main activity of what is sold is to be eaten or drunk.


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## eternal_noob (Mar 27, 2020)

Alcohol kills viruses. So it's important to be able to buy alcohol.








						Why whisky could kill the coronavirus (but not if you drink it)
					

The virus that causes Covid-19 appears more vulnerable than Sars, which means whisky could be enough to kill it on the hands.




					www.scmp.com


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## joplass (Mar 28, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> Virginia and North Carolina both have State run liquor store monopolies. No private stores can sell liquor.



Is that mean Joe Shmoe can't just come to VA or NC and open up a liquor store?


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## Hakaba (Mar 28, 2020)

My first impression was lile yours.
But alcoholic persons need alcohol and if all store are closed, they probably so something stupid to find their needs.
No ?


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## ralphbsz (Mar 28, 2020)

How many people have died of Covid-19? Thousands.
How many of suicide and domestic violence? Many more thousands.
If lack of alcohol causes even a relatively small number of people to become dangerous to self or others, that will make the crisis even worse.

The trick is to retain a balance between society sort of functioning (where public safety, distribution of essentials, and a semblance of normality are preserved, for the benefit of mental health) while minimizing the amount of virus transmission. This requires sometimes odd decisions.

I think when analyzing the response to the crisis, we will eventually find that many more people were killed by the attempts to prevent the spread of the pandemic than by the pandemic itself. As an example, in India there are serious concerns about famine: that country doesn't have the kind of food stockpiles to make it through an extended shutdown. In a country where a very significant fraction of the population are still in the industries that support agriculture (such as tractor repair, electrical parts to keep food processing going, trucking, ...), a full shutdown is simply not possible.

Even here in Silicon Valley, a significant fraction of industry will have to restart relatively soon. Sure, programmers can work from home. But as an example, my wife works for a company that makes cancer treatment hardware. Right now, a lot of non-urgent cancer treatment is deferred: people will have chemo or radiation treatment in a month, not right now. But at some point, deferring that no longer works. At that point, cancer treatment will require consumables (as an example, specialized chemotherapy drugs, not what my wife makes but a similar example). For a few weeks or months, hospitals will have enough stockpiles of those consumables. But within a few weeks, manufacturing of that stuff will have to restart, or else people will die of cancer. Exactly the same applies to heart problems (stents, artificial valves), broken limbs (a friend of ours is a mechanical engineer in a company that makes titanium knees and elbows), and so on. Once more and more people HAVE TO go to work to save lives, more and more of the society's infrastructure will have to be put back in place. For example, families will need schools or childcare again, so the parents can go work and save lives. That means more bus drivers, school janitors, and so on.


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## Phishfry (Mar 28, 2020)

joplass said:


> does that mean Joe Shmoe can't just come to VA or NC and open up a liquor store?


Yes that is exactly what it means. Beer is sold at many retail locations but the state government owns all the liquor stores.
You will also find state owned liquor stores in Pennsylvania. Another "commonwealth" state.

My gripe is that the government is protecting their own monopoly from closing while closing other businesses as 'non-essential'.
I fail to see how liquor is essential.

I have several bottles on a shelf but do not indulge much myself. More for my guests.



Hakaba said:


> But alcoholic persons need alcohol and if all store are closed, they probably so something stupid to find their needs.


Yes but I fail to find that argument persuasive. Liquor stores close at night and they used to close on Sundays.
If you are an alcoholic and need liquor then you should stock up.

We are experiencing a grocery store system failure in my area.
We have a run on bread, eggs, milk and fresh meats. The very staples that many live on.

Consider the farmer who raises chickens. He has a coup which holds 40K birds. They harvest every 3 months.
He cannot produce more chickens on a whim. He is on a set timetable and has to allow his crop to mature.
So our food supply system is not well equipped for surges in demand.

This whole crisis had made me consider raising some of my own foodstock.
It feels like hurricane preparedness (where everyone stocks up)  but the supply system shock is lasting much longer.


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## Crivens (Mar 28, 2020)

Phishfry In Venezuela people started to build iron cages to lock up some relatives. Some people would get by in normal times, even without meds. Some don't. But in that situation, many would then be off their drugs (legal or others) and go raving mad. Howling at the moon and throwing stuff at street gangs is not a survival strategy. And that might come to all of us. I'm just happy I don't have important meds and for those family members who need it we have some weeks reserve.

And the tax from the sales might matter in that decision, too.


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## recluce (Mar 28, 2020)

Here in Canada, liquor stores are certainly essential businesses. You would not want a riot, right?

Seriously, why the heck can so many Americans only perceive a good drink as "sin" or a drug?


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## Crivens (Mar 28, 2020)

recluce You have tried american beer, have you? For any german that stuff is an abomination. 
So that may be a sin right there.
But I might need to stock up my scotch reserve. For medical reasons, you know.


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## fernandel (Mar 28, 2020)

ralphbsz said:


> How many people have died of Covid-19? Thousands.
> How many of suicide and domestic violence? Many more thousands.


You cannot compare them with Covid-19 which is the new deases and we do not have any drugs agait it. You can compare with Spanish Flu.


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## balanga (Mar 28, 2020)

The dangers from Covid-19 are vastly over exaggerated. In the UK 15,000 people die from flu every year and no one bats an eyelid.
So far 800 people have died from this virus and the country has come to a standstill. 99% of people infected by the virus recover within a short period. Of those that die almost all have some underlying health problem which effects their immune system. Those problems include obesity (apparently 30% of Americans are obese), heart disease, lung disease, diabetes and high blood pressure.

What very few people realise is that George Soros and Bill Gates orchestrated this mass panic in order to make big money out of it.

https://politicalmoonshine.com/2020...gates-billionaires-coronavirus-and-the-w-h-o/
https://civilianintelligencenetwork...gates-partner-with-china-on-coronavirus-drug/

Also Bill Gates controls WHO - the organisation that declared this to be a pandemic and has everyone in the world running around like headless chickens.





_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uWriZEC8BQ&t=4s_





_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRJpP83MqNs&t=1244s_





_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-727K585amo_


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## fernandel (Mar 28, 2020)

balanga said:


> T


Try to read what scientist, virologist, epidemiologist around the wotrd say about Covid19 and you will have better view on the disease. All other are speculations.
BTW I never seen in my life and I am not young that so many people died in one day in Italy and I am not in panic but I know something about deaseses which I learned on my study of pharmacy/pharmachology and long work in genetics research.


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## eternal_noob (Mar 28, 2020)

balanga said:


> conspiracy theories


Free speech is important but what you are saying is quite irresponsible and dangerous. Please read reputable news rather than such filth like politicalmoonshine and civilianintelligencenetwork.


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## blackhaz (Mar 28, 2020)

Crivens said:


> recluce You have tried american beer, have you? For any german that stuff is an abomination.



How long since you've last been to the States? Lots and lots of very good craft beer there.


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## Crivens (Mar 28, 2020)

blackhaz said:


> How long since you've last been to the States? Lots and lots of very good craft beer there.


I'm not going to go there. The squeeze with TSA&Friends is not worth the juice. That's a pity imho as there are a lot of nice people and places over there. If only going over there wasn't like checking into club fed...

Last Time I was in Canada I got a sixpack at a local store. The label said "rich & flavourful" and it was such a dishwater.


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## balanga (Mar 28, 2020)

fernandel said:


> BTW I never seen in my life and I am bot young that so many people died in one day in Italy



Sometimes it's worth reading behind the headlines - it looks like most of Italy's Covid-19 victims are really victims of other underlying illnesses and Italy compiles its statistics differently.



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		


As far as pandemics go, this is is no where near as bad as it is being portrayed. It has been marketed as "We're all going to die" and people have been brainwashed into being terrified, yet the number of casualties does not merit the over exposure. In 1919 there was a real pandemic when 50,000,000 people died.  In a normal year 1.5 million people die of pnuemonia and no one even notices. Could that be because no one stands to gain from pneumonia but certain people have invested quite a bit of time and money to take advantage of the scaremongering behind Covid-19.


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## Phishfry (Mar 28, 2020)

recluce said:


> Seriously, why the heck can so many Americans only perceive a good drink as "sin" or a drug?


I don't. My problem is commerce. The state controls the liquor stores and is looking out for their own intrests while closing other businesses and bankrupting them.
The state has no business determining winners and losers. They should be ensuring an level playing field. Not rigging the system.

I do agree on stopping liquor sales during natural emergencies, like hurricanes and I think the same philosophy should be followed during a medical emergency.
Liquor reduces you bodies immune system at a time when we have a medical emergency.








						Alcohol and the Immune System
					






					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## balanga (Mar 28, 2020)

freebsd_noob said:


> Please read reputable news



New York Times, Washington Post, CNN .... ?


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## eternal_noob (Mar 28, 2020)

balanga said:


> New York Times, Washington Post, CNN .... ?


I know what you mean. The trick is to read them all (including foreign media) and then separate the wheat from the chaff using common sense.


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## ralphbsz (Mar 28, 2020)

Crivens said:


> recluce You have tried american beer, have you? For any german that stuff is an abomination.


The problem with the US (and Canada and Australia) is that it has some very good beer. Blackhaz already mentioned the craft beer industry, and I think there is way more variety from small breweries in places like Oregon, California and Massachusetts than in Germany. On the other hand, the generic beer that's sold in huge quantities is pretty awful. Everyone knows the joke, right? Why is "Miller Lite" like making love in a canoe? Ha ha.



> But I might need to stock up my scotch reserve. For medical reasons, you know.


I hate scotch and bourbon. I think they taste like distilled rat poison. On the other hand, I love a good brandy or cognac. And I know people who like scotch. Which proves "de gustibus non est disputandum".


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## fernandel (Mar 28, 2020)

balanga said:


> New York Times, Washington Post, CNN .... ?


https://examine.com/ is more real than yours...


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## Crivens (Mar 28, 2020)

Please no contest in posting nonsense.


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## Phishfry (Mar 28, 2020)

I like to read a good conspiracy theory. That does not mean I believe them all.
CNN had NY governor Cuomo on and he stated that they had a shortage of ventilators and hospitals were having to share them between patients. Then I read that NY had a bunch of ventilators in storage from the Federal Government. Cuomo stated that the ventilators were being stockpiled for the peak of the pandemic.
So which one is it? Short on ventilators or hoarding them?
Politicians are the last people to believe and CNN seems to have a bias.
They are not reporting on events but manufacturing news to fit their narrative just like conspiracy theories.


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## fernandel (Mar 28, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> I like to read a good conspiracy theory. That does not mean I believe them all.
> CNN had NY governor Cuomo on and he stated that they had a shortage of ventilators and hospitals were having to share them between patients. Then I read that NY had a bunch of ventilators in storage from the Federal Government. Cuomo stated that the ventilators were being stockpiled for the peak of the pandemic.
> So which one is it? Short on ventilators or hoarding them?
> Politicians are the last people to believe and CNN seems to have a bias.
> They are not reporting on events but manufacturing news to fit their narrative just like conspiracy theories.


https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...ssible-a-549d1e18-8c21-45f1-846f-cf5ca254b008


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## gpw928 (Mar 29, 2020)

freebsd_noob said:


> The trick is to read them all (including foreign media) and then separate the wheat from the chaff using common sense.


Well said.
For anyone who thinks that the dangers have been over blown, worldometer is a good site to watch over the next few weeks.  It's an education in exponential arithmetic.
The numbers are available by individual country.  The US is shaping up to be absolutely scary!
I sincerely hope that the miracle cure hydroxychloroquine being touted by the right wing press works as well as Trump hopes.


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## recluce (Mar 29, 2020)

Crivens said:


> recluce You have tried american beer, have you? For any german that stuff is an abomination.
> So that may be a sin right there.
> But I might need to stock up my scotch reserve. For medical reasons, you know.



As a German Canadian, I know where you are coming from. American beer in general is an abomination, even though there is a small silver lining in some of their craft beers. In Canada, the industrial brews are just as bad. However, there is a huge selection of craft beers and some of them are really great. I still typically buy German beer, though.


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## Crivens (Mar 29, 2020)

Some nice visualization (also scary) 



_View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=54XLXg4fYsc_


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## Crivens (Mar 29, 2020)

recluce said:


> As a German Canadian...


Maybe one day I'll follow that route. Maybe...


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## mark_j (Mar 29, 2020)

Crivens said:


> Some nice visualization (also scary)
> 
> 
> 
> _View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=54XLXg4fYsc_


China lies. 








						Stacks of urns in Wuhan prompt new questions about virus's toll
					

The long lines and stacks of ash urns greeting family members of the dead at funeral homes in Wuhan are spurring questions about the true scale of coronavi




					www.japantimes.co.jp
				



The Chinese dictators deliberately tried to hide the outbreak & now they're hiding the deaths & infections.
What else to expect from a dictatorship. I'm pretty sure tiananmen square happened... China would tell you otherwise.

I just can't understand how any chart could contain a reference to china as a success. They're almost as delusional as Trump.


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## Crivens (Mar 29, 2020)

The thing is, numbers don't lie. They depend on humans for that. According to that article you may need to adjust the reported numbers by a factor of 20.


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## shepper (Mar 29, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> My gripe is that the government is protecting their own monopoly from closing while closing other businesses as 'non-essential'.
> I fail to see how liquor is essential.
> 
> I have several bottles on a shelf but do not indulge much myself. More for my guests.
> ...



Medically, it is true.  Full Blown, Alcohol withdrawal, aka delerium tremens, is a medical emergency.  Untreated, it carries a 25% mortality rate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens


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## Phishfry (Mar 29, 2020)

Call me cruel but I have no sympathy for a self inflicted disease. Calling it a disease belittles real medical diseases.
That we have over 10% of the population with this disease is embarrassing for our country.
49% growth in 20 years is ridiculous.


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/08/11/study-one-in-eight-american-adults-are-alcoholics/
		

88,000 people die a year from alcohol. Wow. Maybe the temperance movement had it right.


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## recluce (Mar 29, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> Call me cruel but I have no sympathy for a self inflicted disease. Calling it a disease belittles real medical diseases.
> That we have over 10% of the population with this disease is embarrassing for our country.
> 49% growth in 20 years is ridiculous.
> 
> ...



The American view: alcohol is drug, sin or both. If you drink alcohol, you are an addict. That view is not global, though. Good wine, beer and some spirits are part of the culture in many countries and the majority of people there handle it responsibly. So no, I do not share your view at all.

Doing something for health in the USA? Well, look at the Opioid Crisis, lack of access to health care and obesity / diabetes due to fast food and snack foods first. If you get these under control, you may stop the trend of the declining life expectancy in the US. Yes alcohol abuse is a problem, but takes a back seat to some other issues in the USA.

See here: Forbes on declining life expectancy in the USA


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## shepper (Mar 29, 2020)

It is more trying to avoid hard choices.  For example, a 50yo Alcoholic Housewife, who still cooks and gardens, goes into withdrawal, has a seizure and vomits.  She aspirates some of the vomit into her lungs and goes into Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome.  At the same time a recently retired, otherwise healthy, 65yo Male who volunteers in the community, arrives at the ER with Respiratory Failure from COVID-19 pneumonia.  You have one ventilator.  If you let the 50yo Alcoholic Housewife stay drunk, you don't have to make the decision.


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## Crivens (Mar 29, 2020)

shepper These decisions usually need more data than you have in that moment. Also, the past is not a perfect predictor of the future. I know at least one guy who, after visiting one of his drinking buddies in hospital, got his act together and has not failed in the last 20 years.

Yes, there are those who can't be saved. There are those who _don't want to_ be saved. But you need more info beforehand to make that call. And I don't say that out of the blue, as a trained military first responder that comes with the job. And I'm fsck-ing happy I never had to make that call.


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## rigoletto@ (Mar 29, 2020)

mark_j said:


> China lies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After the initial mess China was updating the data daily (I had the link but I lost it) and it does not seems they were hiding the amount of deaths, but in order to legally tell someone died of the consequences of COVID-19 there must have proofs (and not just some doctor opinion) and the tests, all of them, are new and unreliable. A few days ago a guy died of COVID-19 in here (Brazil), that was clearly COVID-19 and all tests were negative to COVID-19 ever the one done right after he died then he should not be counted as a COVID-19 death.


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## gpw928 (Mar 29, 2020)

These moral questions are always difficult if you think about them hard enough.

Would you allow one American to die, if that was all that was required to save the US economy from its pending doom?

How about ten?  You know where this is going...

I'm not convinced that the political class are up to contemplating the deep ethical dilemma.  I'm not even sure that I am.  And what ever the resolution, there are those who won't be pleased.


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## rigoletto@ (Mar 29, 2020)

gpw928 said:


> I'm not convinced that the political class are up to contemplating the deep ethical dilemma. I'm not even sure that I am. And what ever the resolution, there are those who won't be pleased.



This is clearly they are not and that also does not matter. In order to proper impose controls one must have the right tooling to do it.

Asian countries in general, not just China but also Japan, Korea, Singapore[1], Russia etc. can easily suppress people rights if they need and this is fundamental in regards to logistics and national mobilization, and those are exactly the countries dealing with more ease with this crisis. Also, in those countries, except Russia[2], the people are generally homogeneous and the sense of community naturally do exist, a very difference situation of the excess of freedom in the western world and its people diversity fanaticism.









						EU called to use cruise ships to move migrants from Greece to Germany
					

The German pro-migrant organization Sea Watch has an innovative idea for how the European Union can deal with the ongoing migrant crisis in Greece: get some cruise ships and ship migrants to Germany.




					voiceofeurope.com
				




[1] not a very good example btw.
[2] Singapore is historically a different situation


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## Andy Mender (Mar 29, 2020)

Last I saw proper liquor stores was in Chicago, Illinois. In Vienna we don't really have them. Most of the regular stores, malls, etc. are closed at the moment. However, if you wanna get _tanked up, _you can still buy alcohol of absolutely any sort in a bigger grocery store like Billa or Merkur. Also, since the country is under lock-down, people are highly advised to stay home. Not everyone treats this seriously enough, though.


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## rigoletto@ (Mar 29, 2020)

In regards to USA, the concerns of its Government is not just about the economy after the crisis but a very major problem. This is well know by the economic folks, and the USA opponents are working their strategies around this fact (specially Russian and China), the USA will completely bankrupt around 2035, when its (IIRC) 34 trillion debt will make _the call_.

The drama around it now is, in order to save/organize the USA economy after this crisis that debt will need to increase dramatically quite anticipating that (2035) date. For when, nobody know yet.

The fact they just spent trillions in a bunch of crap, like the F35 "always miss the target" Jet, Zumwalt-class "useless" destroyer, Littoral "aluminum superstructure" Combatant Ship doesn't help at all.


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## ronaldlees (Mar 29, 2020)

gpw928 said:


> I sincerely hope that the miracle cure hydroxychloroquine being touted by the right wing press works as well as Trump hopes.



I haven't had a cold or the flu for about 12 years.  No sickness whatsoever.  Haven't been to a hospital in almost thirty years.  Don't have a doctor.  I'm in my mid sixties.  Anyway, I attribute my fortune to one or more of several possibilities.  One - I taught myself to *never* touch my face.  There's a trick for doing that.  Two - I exercise a lot - at least 4 miles/day up to about 8 miles/day walks.   Three - (and this is maybe not as sure as the first two) - I pretty regularly drink tonic water, which has a significant (but supposedly non-therapeutic) amount of quinine (the chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are synthetic versions of this, where the hydroxy one is sort of buffered).

Just saying.


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## ronaldlees (Mar 29, 2020)

Of course, some drunks get the tonic too - but i think the gin part probably counteracts the tonic.


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## aragats (Mar 29, 2020)

ronaldlees said:


> I pretty regularly drink tonic water, which has a significant (but supposedly non-therapeutic) amount of quinine (the chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are synthetic versions of this, where the hydroxy one is sort of buffered)


Dr. Vladimir Zelenko has now treated 699 coronavirus patients with 100% success using Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, Zinc and Z-Pak


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## eternal_noob (Mar 29, 2020)

Desperation can be deadly.


> A man in Arizona died after he and his wife drank a poisonous fish tank cleaner that contained the same active ingredient; his wife said she recognized the chemical name when Trump talked about hydroxychloroquine on TV.











						Trump’s reckless promotion of hydroxychloroquine to fight coronavirus, explained
					

It might not be the "game changer" Covid-19 treatment the president promised.




					www.vox.com


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## ronaldlees (Mar 29, 2020)

Well, sodium pentothal is different than sodium hydroxide.  One little element makes a big difference.  Hydroxychloroquine is different than hydroxychloroquine phosphate (the latter was used in the fish tank cleaner). Even if the ingredient was exactly the same, a grade of that chemical that was not made for human consumption could have dangerous qualities.   You're right about the desperation thing.  We should leave the prescriptions to the doctors I believe.  I'm neither a doctor nor chemist, but still I wouldn't drink something like that!


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## eternal_noob (Mar 29, 2020)

ronaldlees said:


> We should leave the prescriptions to the doctors I believe.


Absolutely! People are losing their minds over this. Yesterday, a Minister of Finances in Germany (the hessian one) killed  himself by train. So sad.


			https://www.thelocal.de/20200329/german-minister-commits-suicide-due-to-coronavirus-worries


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## mark_j (Mar 29, 2020)

rigoletto@ said:


> After the initial mess China was updating the data daily (I had the link but I lost it) and it does not seems they were hiding the amount of deaths, but in order to legally tell someone died of the consequences of COVID-19 there must have proofs (and not just some doctor opinion) and the tests, all of them, are new and unreliable. A few days ago a guy died of COVID-19 in here (Brazil), that was clearly COVID-19 and all tests were negative to COVID-19 ever the one done right after he died then he should not be counted as a COVID-19 death.



Yes, well call me suspicious, but a stack of urns appearing in various funeral places doesn't add up.

I think you're apologising for China when they need no such excuses. They've lied through this entire pandemic and will continue to lie to not lose face. It would be a convenient excuse for them not to define a death by Covid-19 because it reduces the 'official' figures. No, they're being, as usual, deceitful. A friend often quotes "One man tells a *lie*, dozens repeat it as the *truth *". Donald Trump know this all too well, might I add.

That's why I say, the statistics are faked when it comes to China. Their death toll is probably closer to 10 times what they're saying and I base this not on pure supposition but from friends on the ground.

I'm not directly attacking you on this, I just wish EVERY media outlet would just dismiss Chinese figures as the random numbers of a deranged political system.


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## mark_j (Mar 30, 2020)

rigoletto@ said:


> This is clearly they are not and that also does not matter. In order to proper impose controls one must have the right tooling to do it.
> 
> Asian countries in general, not just China but also Japan, Korea, Singapore[1], Russia etc. can easily suppress people rights if they need and this is fundamental in regards to logistics and national mobilization, and those are exactly the countries dealing with more ease with this crisis. Also, in those countries, except Russia[2], the people are generally homogeneous and the sense of community naturally do exist, a very difference situation of the excess of freedom in the western world and its people diversity fanaticism.
> 
> ...



You are right. With Singapore, they're basically an authoritarian democracy. It sounds weird, but quite a few SE Asian countries have democracy and yet have authoritarian or regal rule. IE: 

Japan is much less so, as is Korea.

I think the key here is as you mention at the end, it's ethnic diversity. In Japan, Korea and Singapore [the examples you cited], they are homogeneous societies. Basically, they're one race. It makes it much easier for a government to say to their constituents "give up your rights to save our race".
I don't know enough about Russia, suffice to say, fuel them up with Vodka and they're happy! 

(Playing with the flag icons...)


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## eternal_noob (Mar 30, 2020)

mark_j said:


> Basically, they're one race.


There is only one race - the human race.

A few reads about this topic:

There’s No Scientific Basis for Race - It's a Made-Up Label:








						There's No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label
					

It's been used to define and separate people for millennia. But the concept of race is not grounded in genetics.




					www.nationalgeographic.com
				




The Concept of "Race" Is a Lie:








						The Concept of “Race” Is a Lie
					

Even the Ancient Greeks knew it




					blogs.scientificamerican.com
				




Are different races subspecies?




__





						Human subspecies or races? | Ask A Biologist
					

Are different races subspecies?No! Races are not subspecies of the human species. There is only one “race”—the human race. So why can’t we sort humans into subspecies like we can with other animals? The answer is that the human species doesn’t have much genetic variation. We are too alike to...




					askabiologist.asu.edu


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## gpw928 (Mar 30, 2020)

rigoletto@ said:


> In order to proper impose controls one must have the right tooling to do it.


The Australian federal government has just announced that gatherings of more than two people (outside a household, supermarkets, and some other required exceptions) are banned.
Strong social distancing rules have been in place for some time. 
Whilst I don't anticipate seeing the doors to anyone's condo building getting welded shut any time soon, the rules are (or will be) enforceable in law, and carry heavy fines.  Special police squads have been formed to do the enforcement.
The vast majority of people are complying.
Anyone can now consult a GP or psychologist by electronic media for free (bulk billed to the federal government).
The elected leaders of our federated states (equivalent to US governors) sit down each day (virtually) with the Prime Minister to take advice from the experts, thrash out the issues, and maintain a common, negotiated position.
The long game is now being openly discussed.  i.e. are we aiming to comprehensively infect the population at rate sufficiently slow that the medical facilities can cope, or are we holding out to minimize infections until a vaccine (or miracle cure) is available.

I think that the tooling we have in Australia is reasonably well suited to the democratic society in which it operates.

However, I would agree that the USA seems to be comprehensively challenged in this regard.


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## aragats (Mar 30, 2020)

freebsd_noob said:


> The Concept of "Race" Is a Lie


Such articles are rather paying tribute to modern "fashion" of banning words... It's a substitution of concepts! 
The identity of genomes doesn't mean identity of morphology etc. The same genes can be more or less active depending on many conditions. It's not a secret that Asian people cannot "digest" alcohol as good as European, black people use different cosmetics because their skin's secretes are different and so on.
Such political correctness overkills.


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## eternal_noob (Mar 30, 2020)

aragats said:


> Such political correctness overkills.


The term "race" is just wrong when it comes to sort humans. Just nitpicking, no political correctness intended.


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## ralphbsz (Mar 30, 2020)

rigoletto@ said:


> In regards to USA, the concerns of its Government is ...


You can stop right there, because anything else you will say in the rest of the sentence will be wrong. The USA has (famously) more than one government. And they are remarkably independent of each other. Most people in the US are governed by 4 governments: Federal, state, county, and city; some by only 3 (those that live in a part of a county that is not organized into a city or town). The equivalent of "county" in Germany is the Landkreis or Kreis, in Brasil there are separate comarcas and municipios. (We are in a funny situation: while we are not in a city, in theory we are only in 3 political subdivisions. But because our house is only a few hundred m from the dividing line between two counties, and 90% of our life takes place in the county that we don't live in, we are regulated by two different counties: one for building our house, taxation and such, and the other for shopping, working, and traffic.)

And you can be sure that the concerns of the various governments do not agree. And the constitution explicitly creates a complicated system of which areas which subdivision is in charge of. Here is a random list of things that are disagreements: The state of California and the coastal (rich and leftist) counties would love to make guns illegal, or at least regulate them as strictly as in many European countries; as it is, California has tighter gun control laws than most European countries. However, the federal constitution guarantees the right to some gun ownership, so many things that California would like to do (like mandatory psychological tests before buying guns) are simply legally impossible. On the other hand, in the area I live in, it is virtually impossible to get a license to carry a gun in public, but in some counties about 2 hours east of me (in the conservative, poor and agricultural or mountainous areas), getting such a license is trivial. Next example: Possessing, using and growing marijuana is not only very legal in California, but in most coastal areas it is a big business, with large farms, dispensaries a common sight, and the smell of it coming from many bars and nightclubs. It remains federally illegal to do any of that, and in particular growing and selling it is a very serious crime. But even within California, there are divisions: when the Coronavirus quarantine hit, some cities (San Jose in particular) declared marijuana dispensaries as "essential" businesses, so they could stay open. Most other businesses were closed. In particular, all gun stores were closed pretty much immediately (sometimes under considerable pressure, I've heard stories of the policy showing up heavily armed and forcibly closing gun stores. In contrast, some county sheriffs in the Sierra mountains have declared gun stores to be essential businesses (because in particular in a dangerous and uncertain situation such as this the people need to be able to restock ammo and buy more guns).

I have no idea what the concern of the Government of the US is. I know many people who work in that government, and I know what they individually want (and they don't often agree). It's quite clear to me that President Trump is both insane and stupid, and has no idea what he's talking about, but fortunately his guidance is often ignored.



> ...  and the USA opponents are working their strategies around this fact (specially Russian and China), the USA will completely bankrupt around 2035, when its (IIRC) 34 trillion debt will make _the call_.


I'm old. I've heard that the US will go bankrupt since the mid-60s (when I was a little kid), when my parent's friends were saying that the expense of the Vietnam war was going to bankrupt the US. Every 5 or 10 years someone discovers a different reason for that to happen. For some odd reason, it hasn't gone bankrupt in the past 50 years yet, and has actually not even come anywhere close. The closest any signifcant part of the US ever got to that was the city of New York in the 70s, but even then, it was always clear that they would be bailed out. There are some smaller cities in the US that have declared bankruptcy (Detroit is the only large one, both Stockton and San Bernadino are relative near me), but in all these cases, all debts were paid after some delay. In the meantime, many other countries have had to revalue or destroy their currency, stop paying debt, or be shored up by donors (all I need to say is PIIGS). The probability that the US will "call" its debt seems to be zero, if the past is any guide.



> The fact they just spent trillions in a bunch of crap, like the F35 "always miss the target" Jet, Zumwalt-class "useless" destroyer, Littoral "aluminum superstructure" Combatant Ship doesn't help at all.


A lot of that stuff is  very dumb, I agree. But on the grand scale of things, many other political efforts are dumber and more expensive, even within the US. But less visible. Contrariwise, the US military (even if bloated, inefficient, too expensive) is still a rather dangerous and powerful machine, which most other countries either fear or try to emulate, often with similar stupidities.


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## mark_j (Mar 30, 2020)

freebsd_noob said:


> There is only one race - the human race.



Rubbish.

The common meaning of race is nicely stated by wikipedia:
A *race* is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society.

Now, if you like to argue a Swahili tribesman is the same as a Ainu of Japan, then go for it.

No one, least of all me, said that race is based on genetics. It's a made up problem.


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## eternal_noob (Mar 30, 2020)

mark_j said:


> The common meaning of race is nicely stated by wikipedia


No, the article you quoted is "about human races as a social concept".


mark_j said:


> Now, if you like to argue a Swahili tribesman is the same as a Ainu of Japan, then go for it.


It's the same race from a biological point of view.


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## rigoletto@ (Mar 30, 2020)

mark_j said:


> I don't know enough about Russia, suffice to say, fuel them up with Vodka and they're happy!



Russia include more than 100 Ethnicities. To have an idea of the problem there is a TV in Russia airing programs in about 54 different languages[1]. Most are tribal groups but several of them play important roles in the borders security.



ralphbsz said:


> You can stop right there, because anything else you will say in the rest of the sentence will be wrong. The USA has (famously) more than one government. And they are remarkably independent of each other. Most people in the US are governed by 4 governments: Federal, state, county, and city; some by only 3 (those that live in a part of a county that is not organized into a city or town). The equivalent of "county" in Germany is the Landkreis or Kreis, in Brasil there are separate comarcas and municipios. (We are in a funny situation: while we are not in a city, in theory we are only in 3 political subdivisions. But because our house is only a few hundred m from the dividing line between two counties, and 90% of our life takes place in the county that we don't live in, we are regulated by two different counties: one for building our house, taxation and such, and the other for shopping, working, and traffic.)
> ...



Yes, I know that, but the economy (tax != economy) and defense is controlled by the Federal government in both USA and Brazil.

In Brasil in particular the real power of the states and municipalities are minimal since theoretically (by the Constitution) Brazil is a Federation but in practice a Federal Republic. The majority of the taxes are collected by the states and municipalities but the gross of it is then handed to the Federal Government which later redistribute in the way they want.

In practice São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Paraná and a couple of more states collect by far (I would need to have a look into the current numbers) the larger part of the taxes and receive almost nothing back, about 75% goes to the Northeast states (and nobody knows what they do with that money). In short, the richest states pay the mess they do in the Northeast while live almost only of ICMS, and the municipalities of some minor specifics taxes[2].



ralphbsz said:


> I'm old. I've heard that the US will go bankrupt since the mid-60s (when I was a little kid), when my parent's friends were saying that the expense of the Vietnam war was going to bankrupt the US. Every 5 or 10 years someone discovers a different reason for that to happen. For some odd reason, it hasn't gone bankrupt in the past 50 years yet, and has actually not even come anywhere close. The closest any signifcant part of the US ever got to that was the city of New York in the 70s, but even then, it was always clear that they would be bailed out. There are some smaller cities in the US that have declared bankruptcy (Detroit is the only large one, both Stockton and San Bernadino are relative near me), but in all these cases, all debts were paid after some delay. In the meantime, many other countries have had to revalue or destroy their currency, stop paying debt, or be shored up by donors (all I need to say is PIIGS). The probability that the US will "call" its debt seems to be zero, if the past is any guide.



I don't know how the people got on that conclusion on that time, but the main two reasons USA kept/keep doing fine with international crisis are well known:


US Dollar is the standard foreign trade currency;
currencies are by default dollar-backed.
With this situation wherever economic problem USA have they can (for instance) print money like crazy, like they did in 2008, and spread their misery around the whole world. The change is these both two points are not completelly true anymore and are changing in a reasonable fast peace, and the USA have a debit which is almost the double of the GDP (and growing fast).

Since some time, but specially after 2008, several countries[3] have being switching back to gold-backed plus a mix of currencies. China, Russia, India, Poland, and many others have been buying gold like crazy for that in the last ten years. Russia in particular spent the last decade buying dozens of tons of gold every year. If you ask people who deal with currency exchange, specially in the asset protection market, you will discover the Russian Ruble is today considered near as safe as the Swiss Franc.

Also, completely on the contrary of what the media tell, the Russian economy is among of the most stable in the world, to the point of being stagnated. This is not a problem because that was made on purpose in this way. The idea was/is to sit in a huge amount of cash and then re-shape the country and the economy with ease. Russia is sitting in about US$ 580 billion of reserves, plus an equivalent of 7% of its GDP in a fund ready to be spent with wherever they want, plus the gold, and they have little to no debt.

In this right moment the Duma (Russian parliament) has several groups (different economic ideals) working on several projects to re-shape the Russian economy and make it grow faster and sustainable. At the same time there are several (called) 'National Projects' begin prepared with in depth details to attack its major problems, like health system (which also link with programs to reduce road accidents etc.). If they will succeed or not is another story but Russia already is a VERY different country of what it was 20 years ago, when Duma was not able to became with anything and when they came that was impossible to implement...



ralphbsz said:


> A lot of that stuff is very dumb, I agree. But on the grand scale of things, many other political efforts are dumber and more expensive, even within the US. But less visible. Contrariwise, the US military (even if bloated, inefficient, too expensive) is still a rather dangerous and powerful machine, which most other countries either fear or try to emulate, often with similar stupidities.



IIRC the DoD budget for this year will be close to 800 billion, and there is no way to make this number too lower in the future because of the Defense Doctrine the USA follow, which is *expeditionary*.

If you pay attention you will almost always see the US Navy sailing with a Carrier (main vessel), and a fleet composed of a destroyer and some frigates. While Russia, China, India, etc. (basically everyone else, with minor changes) use a destroyer as capital ship, and they often sail alone. Russia in particular have its defense strategies based on submarines. Those are the most important vessels for them, and they are very effective with them, the only carrier they have are likely to be scrambled soon ever before they decide to build the new project - they have little use to it.

The reason is the USA doctrine impose them to be prepared anywhere in the world at anytime, and so they need to carry everything everywhere, including maintaining a ton of bases everywhere. I will not get into of what I think in regards of the effectiveness of this doctrine because this would be a long story.

The others doctrines, but specially the Russian one[4], is based on keep the equipment they need to control/repel any attack against them or their allies[5], and if that fail they can bring the nuclear weapons into the game to dissuade their opponents.

In practice, the USA doctrine is useless against its true opponents because they (USA) will never actually attack any of them except if they have absolutely no choice (and would need a lot of more than what they have in cache around its opponents). We can't really say anything about China and India but this is very clear Russia would not blef if they need to actually launch a nuclear weapon -  and everybody knows that.

A change may partially happen in the USA doctrine but incidentally. Philippines, a former USA colony btw, just expelled their base in there (and that is the most important one in the region because is the one facing China) and at least a partial cascade effect is expected in the region. China have some quite more effective method to expand its influence:





_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9E0NVroum0_


*Side note:* I really like Singapore, specially how they actually *designed* (IMO this is the right term) the country and still manage to properly re-design it every time they need/want. Not bad for a country that was expelled form Malaysia[5] and managed start from a backwards fishing country to one of they key players in Asia (and worldwide), in one generation.

[1] there is a video about it but I fail to record where.
[2] this is one of the good reasons of why the Brazilian South region still have some separatist mind.
[3] not ever getting into how the € affected and affect the situation.
[4] the Chinese and Indian are based on the Russian. In fact 'Admiral Gorshkov' is the hero of the Indian Navy...
[5] likely the only country which became independent against its will.


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## ralphbsz (Mar 30, 2020)

Just a few tiny comments:



rigoletto@ said:


> Yes, I know that, but the economy (tax != economy) and defense is controlled by the Federal government in both USA and Brazil.
> 
> In Brasil in particular the real power of the states and municipalities are minimal since theoretically (by the Constitution) Brazil is a Federation but in practice a Federal Republic. The majority of the taxes are collected by the states and municipalities but the gross of it is then handed to the Federal Government which later redistribute in the way they want.



And that's different in the US. In the US, local and state government has a lot of power. Just one example: Sitting across the room is an elected board member of our local school district (my wife). She and her four colleagues have the power of deciding how to spend the money the school district gets from local taxpayers, and how much to tax them, which teachers to hire, whether to paint the classrooms or to buy new laptops, and so on. There is an enormous amount of local power and local spending. Now obviously my wife and her colleagues can't do silly things with the about $15K or $20K per student that they have to spend (matter-of-fact, they never have enough to run the school reasonably, so most decisions are about what NOT to do with the money, and how to find more money).

I can do a really simple measurement of the relative power of local versus federal government by measuring where my taxes go: About 50% go to the federal government (income tax); about 25% to the state (also income tax plus a fraction of sales tax, known as VAT in the rest of the world), and about 25% to local government (sales tax, plus real estate tax, plus school-specific taxes). If I were in a city, the split would be somewhat different. Now, the federal government does a lot of "redistributing", and California is a net payer into the federal government (most small states are net receivers, with some states like New Mexico or Montana being fundamentally unable to survive except for federal grants). But the power is not at all centralized in the federal government, even if that is the thing that is most visible from outside.

It's also visible in daily life. There is very little federal police, and the federal courts are not involved in everyday life of most people. In daily life, you interact with either state or local government, with a few exceptions being federal regulation (for example transportation) and national parks.



> In practice São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Paraná ... about 75% goes to the Northeast states (and nobody knows what they do with that money).


The social difference is very large in Brasil, not only between rich and poor, but also between localities. I've been to Campo Grande several times for extended visits, and to the rural areas of Mato Grosso do Sul, but I've also been to Rio and Sao Paulo (I was born in Campinas). The difference is staggering, like between first world and third world. The US also has economic differences (Mississippi and Montana are nothing like New York and California), but they are not as extreme.



> Russia is sitting in about US$ 580 billion of reserves, ...


That's about the same amount as the cash being held by Amazon, Apple, Berkshire Hathaway, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft. Matter-of-fact, most of those companies have between $50B and $100B in cash sitting around, and the top ones way over $100B.

A while ago President Trump (in one of his frequent attacks of insanity) suggested that the US wanted to take control of Greenland. The difference is this: Jeff Bezos together with Amazon could simply buy it. They could make the Danish crown an offer that would be awfully hard to refuse. While the US government would have a really hard time finding the cash to pay for Greenland, in particular since nobody in congress likes Trump.


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## rigoletto@ (Mar 30, 2020)

ralphbsz said:


> That's about the same amount as the cash being held by Amazon, Apple, Berkshire Hathaway, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft. Matter-of-fact, most of those companies have between $50B and $100B in cash sitting around, and the top ones way over $100B.



But I don't think they will burn their cash just to try to destabilize the Ruble because this is all these 580 billion (in particular) is about, reserves to stabilize the Ruble if necessary, and with it heavy gold-backed now that amount seems quite excessive. 

Many Russian numbers are not super impressive to USA standards but Russia considerably cheaper than USA to develop things, the largest infrastructure/energy companies like 'Rosneft' or the most important shipbuilders etc. are state-owned or partially state-owned, and they have a preference to develop everything they can in-house which can make things ever cheaper.


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## recluce (Mar 31, 2020)

ralphbsz said:


> The problem with the US (and Canada and Australia) is that it has some very good beer. Blackhaz already mentioned the craft beer industry, and I think there is way more variety from small breweries in places like Oregon, California and Massachusetts than in Germany. On the other hand, the generic beer that's sold in huge quantities is pretty awful. Everyone knows the joke, right? Why is "Miller Lite" like making love in a canoe? Ha ha.



Nope. With 1539 breweries in Germany (a quarter the population of the US) and most of them centuries-old craft breweries, there is no contest from Canada, the US or Australia in this discipline either.

Edit: wrong number of breweries corrected


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## gpw928 (Mar 31, 2020)

recluce said:


> Nope. With 1539 breweries in Germany (a quarter the population of the US) and most of them centuries-old craft breweries, there is no contest from Canada, the US or Australia in this discipline either.


When I was a lad, working in western Queensland, there were just two brands of beer.  You either drank XXXX or Gold Top.

Wanting to drink anything else was certainly effete.  Ladies were, of course, permitted a dash of lemonade in the beer.

Things have changed somewhat since then.  There are, according to Wikipedia, 717 craft breweries in Australia.

So Australia has 29.1 craft breweries per million population.  Germany has 18.6.

I intend to wile away my isolation home brewing with Coopers wort concentrates and White Labs yeast, a combination which (with appropriate  temperature control, and additions of hops) can produce results worthy of any craft brewery.  So make that 718.


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## ralphbsz (Apr 1, 2020)

Depending on where you look, there seem to be slightly over 7000 breweries in the US, the vast majority craft breweries (I bet 80% of the beer comes from the top 10). That works out to 21 breweries per million people.

But the beer market is clearly very different in Germany versus the US. In the US, it is (by volume) dominated by a few large national brands: Bud, Coors, Miller, Michelob, and a few others. While they account for a huge fraction of overall beer sales, I honestly don't think I've had any of those in about 30 years, not since having been a grad student. I think they're awful. Even at places like baseball games you find craft beers. Some craft beers are nationally sold (like Samual Adams and Sierra Nevada), and many others that I can't even remember are local only. In addition, there is a huge amount of imported beer sold: As students, we used to drink more Foster, Sapporo and Dos Equis than mass-market stuff.

Germany is different. National brands exist (Krombacher, Becks, Warsteiner), but they don't dominate, and they're reasonably good. And in many pubs, they won't get served much. Beer and beer taste is much more local. In any given city, a very large fraction of the beer consumed is the local stuff from the city. If you go to the Altstadt in Duesseldorf, you will probably drink Diebels, Uerige, or Fuechschen. If you ask for a "Pils" style beer, the nice lady behind the counter will look at you funny, but she will be polite and find one for you (probably even on tap), and she will speak in high german to you (instead of dialect), because she immediately knows that you are from far away. If you are drinking Rhenania, you are very likely in Krefeld. If you are drinking a Gleumes, you are sitting in Gleumes' brewpub in Krefeld (I don't think the beer is available anywhere else). Conversely, if you go to Gleumes' brew pub and ask for a Pils-style beer, the Koebes (waiter) will more or less politely tell you that you should try a lemonade or mineral water. My wife made that mistake EXACTLY ONCE (she doesn't like dark beer), and the waiter was very polite, because it was clear that she (a) is a tourist (she only speaks English), and (b) is associated with a group of people who speak dialect and drink the correct beer (my siblings and in-laws). The next time we're there, she ordered a mineral water, to prevent repeating the scene.

If you go to a pub in Hamburg or Muenchen and ask for a Diebels, Rhenania, or Gleumes, you will either get a polite "sorry, we don't have that here", or a blank stare. Unless you are in a beer specialty place, but those are rare. And if you were stupid enough to ask for a Duesseldorf- or Krefeld-style Alt beer in Koeln (Cologne), or for a Koelsch in Duesseldorf, on a Friday night in a busy pub, your nose might get broken and you might find yourself lying outside the door of the pub waiting for an ambulance. While the folks in the lower rhine area are generally friendly towards foreigners (Berliners, Bavarians, French), Koeln is the enemy (and vice versa). By the way, the two cities of Cologne and Duesseldorf are only 50km apart from each other, which makes the hatred more intense.

I lived in Hamburg for two years, and ended up drinking lots of donkey piss diluted with seawater, but that's because my taste is calibrated towards the beer from the Rheinland and Niederrhein. The beer in Hamburg is so bad, they add lemonade to it and sell it as Alsterwasser! OK, I'm sure a person from up north would rather stick his head in the Rhine and inhale than drink the stuff I enjoy, but to each his own.

So Germany has a lot of decent beer, and lots of really good stuff. The US has an enormous amount of garbage that is sold as beer, and also a lot of good stuff.


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## Crivens (Apr 1, 2020)

ralphbsz I once said I'd invite you to a beer if the chance would arise. As someone whose beer taste was calibrated where you can see the tides in the road ditches, I think I'll make that a glass of tab water. It looks to be too dangerous, otherwise.


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## unitrunker (Apr 2, 2020)

There are so many flavored craft beers. Taste is not great. It seems they add flavoring to cover up a bad brew.


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## eternal_noob (Apr 2, 2020)

unitrunker said:


> There are so many flavored craft beers. Taste is not great. It seems they add flavoring to cover up a bad brew.


According to the 1516 Bavarian law, the only ingredients that could be used in the production of beer were water, barley and hops.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot


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## Crivens (Apr 2, 2020)

freebsd_noob said:


> According to the 1516 Bavarian law, the only ingredients that could be used in the production of beer were water, barley and hops.
> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot


I see your 1516 AD and raise you a 1754 BC.


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## free-and-bsd (Apr 3, 2020)

gpw928 said:


> When I was a lad, working in western Queensland, there were just two brands of beer.  You either drank XXXX or Gold Top.
> ...


For that matter, when I was a lad, down here in Russia, we used to have 2-4 kinds of beer. One was served in ... ok let's call them "pubs" he-he. It was from the brewery -- nothing fancy but we drank it.
The other 2-3 were bottled beers. Sour $#@&! But I didn't care much, as you don't when you're 18 .
Back in those days I could drink a lot of beer, but now they all seem to me to come from the same tank. I have changed, though, don't drink at all.
Back then I always dreamed of going to Chekhoslovakia (as it was called back then), which has a reputation of where beer was originally "invented"...


rigoletto@ said:


> Russia include more than 100 Ethnicities.


 More than that, I'm sure... but the thinking across this diversity is pretty similar, when it comes to certain questions.


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## PMc (Apr 4, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> I fail to see how liquor is essential.



Well, it depends. And a lot on Your individual viewpoints.

There are people who think that "sex & drugs & rock'n'roll" is basically bad (or "the devil's") and should be banned anyway.
But then, otoh, sex and drugs and ritual music are the main ways to alter your state-of-consciousness, and people were always interested in that. This is as old as mankind, and is probably what actually holds mankind together.

Then there is the questions how dangerous things should be handled. And things that can alter the state-of-consciousness are somehow dangerous and need special care (you can run your brain into a system-crash just like you can a computer). Some people say such dangerous things should be controlled by government - others say it should NOT be controlled by government because the government is corrupt. (Even though I agree to the latter, I don't have a final stance on that question.)

And then there is the question inhowfar the government should be allowed to limit the freedom of the citicens. And I think that's the wrong question, because at first the citicens should learn to not rely on a government and become able to manage their own crap. Because, for the government holds true what Dostojewskij said, about taking away the people's bread in order to distribute it among them.



> Consider the farmer who raises chickens. He has a coup which holds 40K birds. They harvest every 3 months.
> He cannot produce more chickens on a whim. He is on a set timetable and has to allow his crop to mature.
> So our food supply system is not well equipped for surges in demand.



That makes sense, as people also cannot eat lots more of chicken suddenly. And you cannot store chicken (dead ones) unless you make yourself dependent on electricity.



recluce said:


> Seriously, why the heck can so many Americans only perceive a good drink as "sin" or a drug?



Well, I think you know that answer. Because quite an amount of the original settlers were christian religions extremists driven out of Europe. (Or read Max Weber about 'protestant ethics': about how it is considered "good" to make money off others, and how it is considered "bad" to enjoy your life.)


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## PMc (Apr 4, 2020)

freebsd_noob said:


> According to the 1516 Bavarian law, the only ingredients that could be used in the production of beer were water, barley and hops.
> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot



Hehe... here is the interesting part:


> to suppress the use of plants that were allegedly used in pagan rituals, such as gruit, henbane, belladonna, or wormwood.



These are witches brews. Or, in other words: aphrodisiacs.


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## PMc (Apr 4, 2020)

ralphbsz said:


> I hate scotch and bourbon. I think they taste like distilled rat poison.



Alright back to topic: What exactly do english-speaking/american people understand by "scotch"?

Because, I for my part do not like Whisky as it is commonly served.
But what I actually do like, highly appreciated, are the single-malts: the Lagavulin, the Glenlivet, the Oban, ... - they are very specific, they do each apply to a certain individual mind-state, and then sometimes they do extend that mind-state in a creative way, almost similar to what people experience with Absinthe.


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## ralphbsz (Apr 4, 2020)

Actually, I sort of agree. I don't like generic Bourbon (whisk(e)y made in the southern US) or Scotch (whisky made in Scotland). By the way, I remember that there is a difference between whisky and whiskey (the e matters), but I don't remember why or how.

However: I've occasionally had some very good Irish or Scottish whisky, and it is surprisingly not bad. Not great ... I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a bottle, because I wouldn't enjoy it *THAT* much, but I'll have a glass at someone's house to be social. On the other hand, I've been known to spend hundreds on a bottle of brandy (Cognac, other french or european brandies), and I love drinking them. And I'll enjoy a $15 bottle of brandy much more than a $100 bottle of single-malt collector scotch.

The most expensive bottle we ever bought was over a quarter century ago; my sisters and me bought a bottle of 1933 vintage Cognac for our father's 60th birthday. It was several thousand (and I don't remember whether it was US-$, Euro, or Mark, but it was a lot).


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## rigoletto@ (Apr 4, 2020)

Some funny news:








						US sidestepped OWN SANCTIONS against Russia to save American lives from Covid-19... If only it cared as much about Iranian lives
					

When it comes to saving American lives, sanctions are not an obstacle to the provision of life-saving medical equipment. Ramping up sanctions on struggling Iran is okay however – which goes to show the US price tag on human life.




					www.rt.com
				











						US snatches masks from Germany in act of ‘modern piracy’ – Berlin senator
					

With Covid-19 infections climbing, Washington has diverted shipments of vital protective masks from its allies in Germany and Canada to the US. A Berlin senator described the move as “modern piracy.”




					www.rt.com
				











						‘So cute! What are their names?’ Indian couple calls newborn twins COVID and CORONA
					

Coronavirus fever has taken a strange turn in India, with a couple naming their newborn twins Corona and Covid – reportedly to remind them about the hard times they are enduring amid the epidemic.




					www.rt.com


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## Crivens (Apr 4, 2020)

Some other reference for disappearing goods: https://www.rbb24.de/politik/thema/...hutzmasken-berlin-innensenator-geisel-3m.html (in german).
This looks fishy, in my opinion.


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## rigoletto@ (Apr 4, 2020)

Crivens said:


> Some other reference for disappearing goods: https://www.rbb24.de/politik/thema/...hutzmasken-berlin-innensenator-geisel-3m.html (in german).
> This looks fishy, in my opinion.



These days if you want to receive your order better use a charter flight and get it directly from the seller door.









						US hijacks face masks meant for France
					

A shipment of face masks destined for France was hijacked by an American delegation as it was about to leave the airport in Shanghai.




					voiceofeurope.com
				











						Trump seeks to block 3M mask exports and redirect masks from its overseas customers
					

WASHINGTON (NYTIMES) - The Trump administration is using a Korean War-era law to redirect to the United States surgical masks manufactured by 3M in other countries as part of a heated pressure campaign to force the Minnesota company to cut off sales of surgical masks abroad.  Read more at...




					www.straitstimes.com


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## userxbw (Apr 4, 2020)

alcoholics will die if they go cold turkey .. even hospitals give them alcohol as part of there prescription. how or who sells it to them, even a ABC store even, that is America's Capitalistic ways, it is was the U.S.A. is built on. That is there core system.


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## getopt (Apr 6, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> We need to make sure that people stay healthy and not drunk during a state of emergency.
> The liquor stores close during hurricanes but stay open during a medical emergency. That is ludicrous.
> 
> My feeling is that we should also stop the sales of cigarettes. Last thing we need during a medical crisis is people polluting their lungs.
> ...


Isn't the NAVY playing it awesome?


> Quarantined sailors are not allowed to leave their rooms. Their meals are placed on the floor outside their hotel doors three times a day, and alcohol and outside food are not allowed in.
> These sailors have not even been given keys to their rooms. If they try sneaking out, the doors will lock behind them and they will need a military police officer — one of whom is keeping watch on every floor — to let them back in. They do have access to Wi-Fi and cable television, and are allowed to smoke on their balconies, if their room has one.



Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/us/politics/coronavirus-aircraft-carrier-roosevelt-crozier.html

The cure is Wi-Fi + smoking on the balkony.
But don't do this at home kids! You need lungs like a SEAL.

With your hypothesis "no alcohol" you certainly could qualify for a rear admiral as long as you won't seek advise from Internet forums.


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## drhowarddrfine (Apr 6, 2020)

(I am not following this thread but...) I saw my first CDC television spot which tells people to calm down, essentially, and that you're not likely to get the virus and even less likely to die from it. That comes on the heels of ads from toilet paper manufacturers and food vendors telling people to quit hoarding these things cause there is no shortage. Voices of reason are starting to make their appearance, finally, as people have learned to turn off the television "news" fear mongering (which such things they live for).


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## getopt (Apr 6, 2020)

drhowarddrfine said:


> I am not following this thread but...


Yeah, probably the best way to contribute here ...


drhowarddrfine said:


> spot which tells people to calm down, essentially, and that you're not likely to get the virus and even less likely to die from it.


See what Bert the Turtle has to deliver: Duck and Cover



			https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Duck_and_Cover_1440_x_1080_01836081.webm
		


The postmodern variation is to hide one's head in the sand, as the virus won't enter the backside.


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## a6h (Apr 6, 2020)

Popper, Karl. The Open Society and Its Enemies. Routledge, 1945.


> Again, we have only to read the daily papers to observe that propaganda (the modern counterpart of rhetoric) depends largely for its success on confusing the meaning of the terms.
> If politicians were compelled by law to define any term they wished to use, they would lose most of their popular appeal, their speeches would be shorter, and many of their disagreements would be found to be purely verbal.


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## Phishfry (Apr 6, 2020)

getopt said:


> you certainly could qualify for a rear admiral as long as you won't seek advise from Internet forums.


I was an enlisted man so Command Master Chief would be more in line.
Maybe I was brainwashed, by my time in the Navy, into these decisions.
To me it seems more like a common sense decision.
I would like to add vaping to that list. Probably three times worse for your lungs.


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## getopt (Apr 6, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> Command Master Chief would be more in line


Go NAVY!


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## fernandel (Apr 6, 2020)

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/483528-coronavirus-world-capitalism-barbarism/


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## getopt (Apr 6, 2020)

fernandel and other Russia Today propadanda "readers".
Our FreeBSD Forums do not deserve this political propaganda.

This is a call for for a wise and decent decision to close this thread.


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## fernandel (Apr 6, 2020)

getopt said:


> fernandel and other Russia Today propadanda "readers".
> Our FreeBSD Forums do not deserve this political propaganda.
> 
> This is a call for for a wise and decent decision to close this thread.


Slavoj Zizek is well known philosopher around the world. I red above link in the europen news and when I search for the link I found on RT and I didn't search more because was the same as I did read.
If you have a time and patients you will find more around in the France newspapers and in British too.


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## getopt (Apr 6, 2020)

fernandel said:


> I red above link in the europen news and when I search for the link I found on RT and I didn't search more because was the same as I did read.


fernandel, don't get this wrong. While I respect your and others personal opinion, and philosophical thoughts are always welcome, please select your sources more carefully when linking.

We have got the forum rules "no politics" and we should respect them even if moderators seem to be absent. But for sure we do not deserve spreading propaganda bullhorn sources here.


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## unitrunker (Apr 7, 2020)

Politics ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_One_on_the_Right_Is_on_the_Left





_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76CpZgOKHOQ_


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## Crivens (Apr 7, 2020)

getopt said:


> Go NAVY!


Not exactly. In the military, nobody _goes_. Your DI will see to that. And the only navy using feet for movement would be using those ships of the desert.

And with this we go back to the original topic, which broadly would be "which infrastructure is essential now?".


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## eternal_noob (Apr 7, 2020)

Crivens said:


> which infrastructure is essential now?


While i think liquor stores are essential indeed, i propose gun stores are not.
Looks like americans are hoarding guns while the rest of the world is hoarding toilet paper and alcoholic beverages.


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## getopt (Apr 7, 2020)

Crivens said:


> Your DI will see to that.




```
> wtf -o DI
wtf: I don't know what `DI' means!
```

But I know the term 'Go Navy' which you don't.

Nevertheless I appreciate that you set a clear signal with


Crivens said:


> And with this we go back to the original topic, which broadly would be "which infrastructure is essential now?".


and I hope moderators keep an eye on that 
and enforce the forum rule "no politics".


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## unitrunker (Apr 7, 2020)

Drill Instructor


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## Crivens (Apr 7, 2020)

getopt said:


> But I know the term 'Go Navy' which you don't.


You have no Idea what I know or maybe don't know... what makes you think you do?


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## getopt (Apr 7, 2020)

Crivens said:


> You have no Idea what I know or maybe don't know... what makes you think you do?


Absolutely! It's all about hypothesis testing.
I tried to understand what you might mean by


Crivens said:


> Your DI will see to that.


Do you address me personally with 'Your'?


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## Crivens (Apr 7, 2020)

That is a generic 'you'. If _you_ ever had a DI, personally, there is little chance not to notice that guy or forget that he existed.

But back on topic - I just learned that one brewery decided to donate the alcohol from the 0% beer process to hospitals et al. They are using the existing botteling system they have, so you might run into complete cases of brand bottles containing stuff closer to 100% than expected. So yes, liquor stores are important and the medic with that green bottle may be carrying sanitizer and no beer.


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## Phishfry (Apr 7, 2020)

The Navy called bootcamp personal 'Company Commanders'. I was never called rock so many times in my life...

He is the official US list of essential personal that was used at work to justify my shipyard staying open.
Ship Repair falls under two categories for my shop. Transportation and Defense Industrial Base.




__





						Identifying Critical Infrastructure During COVID-19 | CISA
					

There are 16 critical infrastructure sectors whose assets, systems, and networks, whether physical or virtual, are considered so vital to the United States that their incapacitation or destruction would have a debilitating effect on security, national economic security, national public health or...




					www.cisa.gov
				



I don't see Liquor Stores anywhere on the list.
Liquor stores are non-essential unless they are government owned. Then government makes their own rules so they can fake it..


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## getopt (Apr 7, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> I don't see Liquor Stores anywhere on the list.
> Liquor stores are non-essential unless they are government owned.


Yes, you might be right about that. But honestly I don't see a reason why this should be discussed here on a IT-related forum that is not dedicated to US domestic Gov matters. There are more demanding problems in these times like triaging humans for ventilator access.


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## aragats (Apr 7, 2020)

Phishfry said:


> I don't see Liquor Stores anywhere on the list.


They definitely go into the highlighted category, see a quote from your link:


> FOOD AND AGRICULTURE
> Workers supporting groceries, pharmacies, convenience stores, and other retail (including unattended and vending) that sells human food, animal/pet food and pet supply, and *beverage products*, including retail customer support service and information technology support staff necessary for online orders, pickup and delivery.


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## Crivens (Apr 8, 2020)

getopt said:


> There are more demanding problems in these times like triaging humans for ventilator access.


Ahem, not here. Triaging is when the sticky brown stuff has hit the rotating whirly bit. We don't do this here. And even in times of trouble you need some soul food. That is why even in combat rations, there is some sweets and coffee/tea. It holds up your spirits, your body could survive on stuff like the Seven Seas Ship Rations, but after some days you wish it wouldn't.

And that is how I see a beer in the evening, or this thread. When it is so bad that we can't spare the time for this or the beer/chocolade/coffee/whatever we are in real trouble. Then it impacts your will to carry on.

And you should not use triage as an argument, ever. Those who have to do that mostly never forgive themselves, some implode later on. Those who don't need watching. Those who crave it need close watching, preferably trough a scope.


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## getopt (Apr 8, 2020)

Crivens said:


> Ahem, not here. Triaging is when ..


Triaging is done, when short resources (for whatever reason) have to be allocated due to increased demand (for whatever reason).

Triaging is done all the times everywhere on earth. Usually you (generic you) don't see, hear or smell it. And in peace times you don't call it triage. Therefore let me use the more appropriate term allocation.

Want some not so scaring examples?

Say you have left a small number of SARS-Cov2 test sets. Outside are lining up big numbers of persons who need to be tested. The usual method is first come first serve. But due the fact the shortage is known and the crowd has been seen, you were told to use the remaining tests in a most productive manner. Now you have to allocate your sets by practicing selection: You get the test and sorry you do not get it. It is not told to the people is such a cruel manner. Most people is told to show up on a later time, but a few is told to line up in room XY. In some regions donations/paying "handling fees" can speed up the process significantly after having heard "come tomorrow". Obviously you need some method and rules for doing allocation as corruption increases in times of shortages  (FFP-masks: rubbery even on top state level).

And in certain places resources are hold back even if man on the street started dying. Those resources are reserved to relevant VIPs in case they need it without delay.

If you are telling a cancer patient that his operation has to be postponed you don't tell him that he got triaged.

If a collided and almost died biker was sent to a long distance trip instead to the nearby medical center which could do it perfectly, he was triaged.

Keep on saying "not here"?

For not missing some IT-related thoughts here in our glory digital era where distributed apps are expected to 'save the world': Why not using an algorithm for decisions that scares the staff? Algorithms could perfectly hide the triage problem from everyone.

The remaining question is: Why got we hit on short resources? Why do markets fail? Why are the huge profits from normal/peace times (in a few pockets) not a solution for suffering populations?

Sixpacks in the fridge tend to prevent thinking about such questions. Therefore alcoholic beverages for the masses are system relevant.


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## PMc (Apr 8, 2020)

getopt said:


> But honestly I don't see a reason why this should be discussed here on a IT-related forum that is not dedicated to US domestic Gov matters.



Well, then, let me help You out on a reason. First and very important, this is not an US forum, it is planetscope (that includes Russia).
Second, what is "essential" for people should also not be decided solely by the US.

Another example: 
My mom complains that she cannot buy the seeds to plant her food (now is the season, this cannot be done later), because government has banned the sale of gardening equip & seeds (i.e. growing the food for the next winter) as "non-essential".
They appear to have eagerly grabbed the chance to finally get rid of people growing their own food and force them to buy the monsanto-junkfood from the supermarket instead (and buy a car first to even get there and fetch the crap).

Those who are dependent on the liquor-stores are in a later stage of this same process: they have already given up on making their own schnaps, and are now slaves of the government.

What has this to do with IT? Nothing.
And, what has this to do with FreeBSD? Everything.

Because, we are in the same process: the powers-in-place do not like us. They would prefer us to throw away our computers, and buy windows computers instead, then buy some games, buy some music clips, buy some tv-on-demand, and that is all we are supposed do. And they will be looking for ways to force us to do so.

So, if you don't like discussions about politics, then at some point you may not have a cause to discuss Berkeley either, because there will be no Berkeley anymore.

I cannot see any substantial difference, between

someone growing their own food instead of buying it from the supermarket
someone crafting their own OS instead of buying windows
someone distilling their own schnaps instead of buying it from the liquor-store
someone entertaining their own thinking instead of buying pre-fabricated learning-targets from 'established' media.
The powers-in-place and the government hate all of these likewise, because this is all about the same: about DIY, about staying independent from gratification/withdrawal experiments in behaviourism.


getopt said:


> The remaining question is: Why got we hit on short resources? Why do markets fail? Why are the huge profits from normal/peace times (in a few pockets) not a solution for suffering populations?
> 
> Sixpacks in the fridge tend to prevent thinking about such questions. Therefore alcoholic beverages for the masses are system relevant.



Indeed, these are good questions. But I don't subscribe to Your viewpoint about alcohol. It reminds me of the viewpoint of Theodor Adorno, who thought that the masses would start to think if you only make them suffer enough.

That doesn't work, it is a sadist's viewpoint. People do think when they feel a delight in thinking, just like they do gardening when they feel a delight when doing so, or hack computers because they have fun doing that, or, like my eastern friends, make their own beverages because they enjoy to do so.


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## getopt (Apr 8, 2020)

PMc said:


> It reminds me of the viewpoint of Theodor Adorno, who thought that the masses would start to think if you only make them suffer enough.


Could it be that you got Adorno a little wrong? May you give us a cite, please?


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## PMc (Apr 8, 2020)

getopt said:


> Could it be that you got Adorno a little wrong?



No, certainly not. I had a lifelong exposure to that agenda. It destroyed everything that was joyful and dear to me, beginning with the hippies.



> May you give us a cite, please?



Isn't it enough that I quoted You argueing in the same direction? Btw, who is "us"?


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## getopt (Apr 8, 2020)

PMc said:


> Because, we are in the same process:


BTW who is "we" and who is "they" thereafter?

My "us" meant those reading here.



PMc said:


> Isn't it enough that I quoted You argueing in the same direction?


You mean I do argue like Adorno?


----------

