# Installing FreeBSD is turning out to be a nightmare



## Insomniac (Nov 19, 2022)

Installing FreeBSD is interesting... download dvd image, check checksum, all good. Burn it to a dvd+rw and verify write using K3B on Linux, all good.
Try to install it on an actual pc, it complains about md5 checksums not being what they need to be to install.

Installing Linux on the same pc works just fine using the same dvd drive, so the dvd drive malfunctioning is unlikely.
Many Linux distributions give you the option at boot time to verify the boot medium, but I'm not aware of any that do during the install process.

If it's a required step, it needs to work always, or drop the requirement. Giving users the option to verify their install medium is great.
Requiring it does not have to be a problem, but it needs to work always if the device is not defective.

In my case I've verified the download, verified the write to dvd+rw disc, and I know the dvd drive on the machine I'm trying to install on is not defective.

So what is going on here where FreeBSD is refusing to install? Why does it check integrity of the medium during install like no other operating system in existence? All of my due diligence shows no errors on the medium used, yet the FreeBSD installer insists on aborting installing because of md5 checksums.

Using FreeBSD-13.1-RELEASE-amd64-dvd1.iso written to a DVD+RW as the install medium to be specific. Trying to install to a 256GB SSD on a 6th Gen Intel system.

I've never seen an operating system this difficult to install as a system administrator. Even experimental ones are not this bad. Linux from scratch is easier than figuring out than this nightmare fuel.


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## SKull (Nov 19, 2022)

Why would you use a DVD instead of a USB Stick with a memstick image? I bet your burner as well  as your dvds are ancient.
Also: The media check definitely isn't mandatory.



Insomniac said:


> I've never seen an operating system this difficult to install


It really isn't. The installer comes with about 4 or 5 dialogs. Pretty much like any other Linux distro.
You pretty much setup your boot drive, keyboard and network. 
Are you perhaps using ancient or otherwise exotic hardware?
Try it with a memstick image on a USB Stick.


Insomniac said:


> as a system administrator.


The fact that you tried it with a DVD only and then took the time to rant on a forum makes me wonder what kind of admin you are *scnr*
But seriously, try it via USB Stick and have an irssi session running on #freebsd@libera.chat for problems that arise, I'm sure you'll get it running.


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## tux2bsd (Nov 20, 2022)

It'd be over a decade since I installed anything with a CD/DVD.  You'd be one of very few people actually end-to-ending that process I would expect.

Like Skull said Give it another go with a memory stick, your 256GB SSD on a 6th Gen Intel system should cope.

Failing that run though an install in a VM so you can see what it's like without the hardware problems (but be prepared for different problems...)


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## Geezer (Nov 20, 2022)

Insomniac, get some sleep!


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 20, 2022)

I'm waiting to see if we ever hear from Insomniac again or this is just another troll post.

If not, sorry, but are you Insomniac following the Handbook or just winging it. If you are winging it or trying to follow online tutorials, then you are just guessing.

It doesn't matter if he's using a DVD or not. That's not the issue.

I'm wondering if the issue is, as it is most of the time, he's trying to make FreeBSD work just like Linux. fwiw, I have never been able to install any Linux distro (Arch, Gentoo) except Ubuntu without hours and days of searching for solutions cause it just won't install. And I follow their web site install instructions.


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## SKull (Nov 20, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> It doesn't matter if he's using a DVD or not. That's not the issue.


It might be. An old writer writing to an old DVD is definitely error prone.


drhowarddrfine said:


> I have never been able to install any Linux distro (Arch, Gentoo) except Ubuntu without hours and days of searching for solutions cause it just won't install


Oh come on. Even arch was a piece of cake to install almost two decades ago.
(Maintaining it was another story)
I'm assuming that this statement was simply made up.


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## tux2bsd (Nov 20, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> ...I follow their web site install instructions.


Clearly you don't.  Your lies don't impress anyone.



drhowarddrfine said:


> It doesn't matter if he's using a DVD or not. That's not the issue.


It is the issue, literally.  For whatever reason he's trying to install from DVD and it's failing - re-read his 1st post.

Insomniac   should use a USB stick.


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## smithi (Nov 20, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> Installing FreeBSD is interesting... download dvd image, check checksum, all good. Burn it to a dvd+rw and verify write using K3B on Linux, all good.



I'll play.

Assuming burned to DVD as an image, not an ISO file ...

On linux, can you mount the DVD as a cd9660 image?

When you do, can you
`cd $mountpoint/usr/freebsd-dist`
and list the set of distribution files (*.txz)?

Can you cat the MANIFEST?



Insomniac said:


> Try to install it on an actual pc, it complains about md5 checksums not being what they need to be to install.



They're not md5, but SHA256.

# sha256 base.txz

Does that match MANIFEST?

Make sure they all do.

If not, please report the mismatched output here.

If so, you have some other problem altogether.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 20, 2022)

tux2bsd 
I think it's time for the mods to put you on a holiday for a while. I also recommend you read the whole thread to see where I was coming from with my comments but I hope you continue to insult me instead.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 20, 2022)

SKull said:


> It might be. An old writer writing to an old DVD is definitely error prone.


People here are replying, asking him why he's using a DVD. That's not the point. If he wants to use a DVD, so be it.



SKull said:


> Oh come on. Even arch was a piece of cake to install almost two decades ago.


It's been a few years but following their web site instructions would never get a proper install. And I can install FreeBSD from scratch, without the installer, in 10 minutes. The same is true for Gentoo. One, or both of them, forces you to bounce all over their site to install depending on how you want to do it...and then you lose your place. Worst instructions ever.


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## kpedersen (Nov 20, 2022)

I installed FreeBSD 12.3 the other day from a DVD and it worked well (Slightly old rack server just before the era of reliable USB booting.)

The only annoyance I can say is that the DVD and CD image both require a DVD these days (>700MB). I am slightly surprised that the kernel, base and installation scripts cannot fit on to a CD.

Luckily it *did* have a DVD drive or I would have had to install it manually.


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## larshenrikoern (Nov 20, 2022)

I am also still depending on dvd for install. Has never let me down. The couple of times I used a usb stick. Ouchh. Could not boot, destroyed the memstcik. So I prefer to use what I know works.

Do not shame on other people, that are doing things in a way you would not do. Because then YOU are the troll. By that I mean behaving in an evil and bad way. Behave well and be kind to others, then they will be that as well to you.


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## Profighost (Nov 20, 2022)

larshenrikoern said:


> Because then YOU are the troll.


of course.

That's why I wrote "warning" - not "alarm".
Participating this forum for a while shows every couple of weeks someone making a _provocant_ statement - it looks like a question, but it actually differs from a real question, even if someone newb is frustrated.

Most people here are very helpful - want to help, want people especially newbs get into FreeBSD.
So immediatly many answers and questions are made, to help.

But you will never see the OP again.
If I am wrong, and this is a real question (which I doubt very much, since nearly all questioners are back short term, and participate within their own threads, and the title is already a provocant catcher, would not put it this way, if DVD or Netinstall would be the point) 

I hereby excuse me for making a wrong suggestion.

But if not, again there is a good chance that we see 2,3,... pages of 
Pro-FreeBSDlers brawling each other about something stupid some else has started.
Example: 
tux2bsd already insulted drhowarddrfine to be "a liar" for nothing (again).
This is just senseless wasted energy.
One cannot prevent trolls, really.
But one can become aware of it and stop wasting energy on that.

And that's why this was my last post in this thread.

I already did an preventive excuse - but I think I will be right.

peace out.


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

smithi said:


> I'll play.
> 
> Assuming burned to DVD as an image, not an ISO file ...
> 
> ...


The disc can be mounted on a Linux machine and the sha256 checksums all look normal.

x@x-MS-7D31:/media/x/13_1_RELEASE_AMD64_DVD/usr/freebsd-dist$ ls ; cat MANIFEST ; sha256sum *.txz
base-dbg.txz  base.txz  kernel-dbg.txz  kernel.txz  lib32-dbg.txz  lib32.txz  MANIFEST  ports.txz  src.txz  tests.txz
base-dbg.txz    eaedd489d7880a8268210c028f326b9549c6cdba97018ed8494a5e9ac63c701b    1656    base_dbg    "Base system (Debugging)"    off
base.txz    565baf7cf520cedfa01c5260f6a614b71c5e2b37ba3ee22e1342906548aa24ad    27071    base    "Base system (MANDATORY)"    on
kernel-dbg.txz    26783db89530d3b9b512dbd3e7fc9b71a14827acd51cbcf866f947c5412a6a2f    846    kernel_dbg    "Kernel (Debugging)"    on
kernel.txz    add331bba9eb45fc0350ad14682538c14d44786d7c4fedadd97a71905db66a44    857    kernel    "Kernel (MANDATORY)"    on
lib32-dbg.txz    5d2a0a63693cd3f32eca1c26d9a3c2c36fa57620455a7d629b4e27662c5318a9    247    lib32_dbg    "32-bit compatibility libraries (Debugging)"    off
lib32.txz    26001a4847cbf242b7bf0e6f9660dfb4115512418bfdc0c8d938a028635ed98b    1034    lib32    "32-bit compatibility libraries"    on
ports.txz    bc77e652e1021bbeb71bec98816c5964a04b8c32d12f6e30670ba6f9e3d38af6    184427    ports    "Ports tree"    off
src.txz    b2acdda53269d66d0438d65d808488660375af73679db89d0052169a11f9b24e    95871    src    "System source tree"    off
tests.txz    9f50a6ba9e6d1778cd549a60040434b443b21e914d78094584bba58ad323039c    6826    tests    "Test suite"    off
eaedd489d7880a8268210c028f326b9549c6cdba97018ed8494a5e9ac63c701b  base-dbg.txz
565baf7cf520cedfa01c5260f6a614b71c5e2b37ba3ee22e1342906548aa24ad  base.txz
26783db89530d3b9b512dbd3e7fc9b71a14827acd51cbcf866f947c5412a6a2f  kernel-dbg.txz
add331bba9eb45fc0350ad14682538c14d44786d7c4fedadd97a71905db66a44  kernel.txz
5d2a0a63693cd3f32eca1c26d9a3c2c36fa57620455a7d629b4e27662c5318a9  lib32-dbg.txz
26001a4847cbf242b7bf0e6f9660dfb4115512418bfdc0c8d938a028635ed98b  lib32.txz
bc77e652e1021bbeb71bec98816c5964a04b8c32d12f6e30670ba6f9e3d38af6  ports.txz
b2acdda53269d66d0438d65d808488660375af73679db89d0052169a11f9b24e  src.txz
9f50a6ba9e6d1778cd549a60040434b443b21e914d78094584bba58ad323039c  tests.txz

sha256 checksum of the downloaded iso:
x@x-MS-7D31:~$ sha256sum /Data/Software/Operating\ Systems/FreeBSD\ 13.1RELEASE\ 2022-05-16/FreeBSD-13.1-RELEASE-amd64-dvd1.iso 
5b29c2cd5a604ad24810c994027ec13c9efc53778a307831f6181dfdaf02939f  /Data/Software/Operating Systems/FreeBSD 13.1RELEASE 2022-05-16/FreeBSD-13.1-RELEASE-amd64-dvd1.iso

sha256 checksum from the freebsd download site:
https://download.freebsd.org/releas....1/CHECKSUM.SHA256-FreeBSD-13.1-RELEASE-amd64 contains the following line:
SHA256 (FreeBSD-13.1-RELEASE-amd64-dvd1.iso) = 5b29c2cd5a604ad24810c994027ec13c9efc53778a307831f6181dfdaf02939f

The disc also boots on the target machine. The issue appears during the installer where a root filesystem has been selected and it start to copy/extract files. At which point it complains about checksums not being valid.


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

I've installed Linux Mint 21 on the same target machine. Same hardware, same installation method, same dvd brand and type, but a different disc. No issues installing.
Now the machine has an operating system I've repeated the checksum test above using the dvd drive and problematic disc.

It shows read errors on the files, where as it does not in the machine that was used to burn the disc as shown above.

Tried reading a bunch of dvds and cds using dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null and watching dmesg for block device errors. Both original and burned discs. All 6 discs tried showed no errors. Including the one used to install Linux and others of the same brand and type. The disc used for FreeBSD did show errors.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the disc is within some kind of tolerance on one machine, but not the other. Burned another disc, same method, same brand and type. Tried reading it using dd again to see if any block device errors occur. No issues on either pc. Very unusual issue.

No issue installing FreeBSD using the second disc.

For science I've taken the offending disc and rewrote the iso to it. It verifies as correct on the machine writing the disc. No block device errors with dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null. Checksums are correct with the above test. Tried the disc again on the target machine. Block device errors again. There is some weird compatibility issue with this specific disc that others of the same brand and type do not have using the same dvd drives.


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## Crivens (Nov 21, 2022)

Ok folks. He is back. Might simply be someone with a family who has things to do on weekends. Like me, you know?

So be civil again, we have some faces here which need to wipe some egg off themselves... Do it! 

As for the question: what is the brand/model of that DVD drive?  Some need a lot of quirks, some don't. So if it is recognized as buggy firmware by linux, but not FreeBSD, then that might be it. Might simply be that with RW media to limit the speed because read errors would occur. The structure of RW is not nearly as crisp as a printed one. So maybe, for curiosity, put it into a USB drive, or switch the port to IDE in bios. I have one drive which needs this.


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## tux2bsd (Nov 21, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> It's been a few years but...


Ah, backpedaling.

Insomniac why are you choosing not to try with a memory stick?


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## Crivens (Nov 21, 2022)

tux2bsd said:


> Ah, backpedaling.


Ehm, btw. Your manners do not impress anyone here. Why not trying to be civil? Maybe reading up on manners? Just a hint.


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

tux2bsd said:


> Insomniac why are you choosing not to try with a memory stick?


The machine in question does not reliably boot from USB media. It's not uncommon for machines of that era.


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

Crivens said:


> As for the question: what is the brand/model of that DVD drive?  Some need a lot of quirks, some don't. So if it is recognized as buggy firmware by linux, but not FreeBSD, then that might be it. Might simply be that with RW media to limit the speed because read errors would occur. The structure of RW is not nearly as crisp as a printed one. So maybe, for curiosity, put it into a USB drive, or switch the port to IDE in bios. I have one drive which needs this.


DVD drive on the target machine shows Model=LITE-ON DVDRW SOHW-832S, FwRev=VS01 according to hdparm -i on Linux.
It is a IDE model, not a SATA one.

Drive used to write media is a Model=ASUS    BW-16D1HT, FwRev=3.10 again according to hdparm -i on Linux. SATA for this one.

DVD Write speed used was 4x for all discs, which was the default picked by the used writing software (K3B).


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## tux2bsd (Nov 21, 2022)

Crivens why are you trolling?  I asked Insomniac a question, I'm not interested in your input (or your friend that keeps trying to change the subject).


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## smithi (Nov 21, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> I've installed Linux Mint 21 on the same target machine. Same hardware, same installation method, same dvd brand and type, but a different disc. No issues installing.
> Now the machine has an operating system I've repeated the checksum test above using the dvd drive and problematic disc.



Thanks for doing thorough due diligence with the sha256 tests, and following through with testing - while under fire, which I note you've had the good manners to ignore.



Insomniac said:


> It shows read errors on the files, where as it does not in the machine that was used to burn the disc as shown above.
> 
> Tried reading a bunch of dvds and cds using dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null and watching dmesg for block device errors. Both original and burned discs. All 6 discs tried showed no errors. Including the one used to install Linux and others of the same brand and type. The disc used for FreeBSD did show errors.



Sounds like a real edge case alright.  Just for reference, what brand/model discs?



Insomniac said:


> The only conclusion I can come to is that the disc is within some kind of tolerance on one machine, but not the other. Burned another disc, same method, same brand and type. Tried reading it using dd again to see if any block device errors occur. No issues on either pc. Very unusual issue.



Indeed.  And while modern USB flash media are usually more reliable, I've had two fail recently after earller passing xz -tv, one a new 64G Lexar that works about every other time ...



Insomniac said:


> No issue installing FreeBSD using the second disc.
> 
> For science I've taken the offending disc and rewrote the iso to it. It verifies as correct on the machine writing the disc. No block devices errors with dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null. Checksums are correct with the above test. Tried the disc again on the target machine. Block device errors again. There is some weird compatibility issue with this specific disc that others of the same brand and type do not have using the same dvd drives.



Very annoying & non-digital.

So after all, you have 13.1 installed?  Let me know if you want to use bsdconfig to install packages off the DVD, I have some patches to fix that, though not for gnome.


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

smithi said:


> Sounds like a real edge case alright.  Just for reference, what brand/model discs?
> 
> So after all, you have 13.1 installed?  Let me know if you want to use bsdconfig to install packages off the DVD, I have some patches to fix that, though not for gnome.


These discs are Nashua (Media Products) DVD+RW. Never had an issue before using these until this incident. Not only with these 2 systems but others as well. They aren't exactly a recent purchase, or used very often, but they have always worked reliably for many years now. In 20+ years of using optical media I have never encountered this specific issue before.

Yes it installed just fine. The intended purpose for this machine is simply to gain some experience with ZFS, see what the Linux compatibility of FreeBSD is like, and regain some lost knowledge as I haven't used BSD systems in about a decade. I'll be fine with packages now that I've resolved this weird issue.


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## larshenrikoern (Nov 21, 2022)

tux2bsd said:


> Crivens why are you trolling?  I asked Insomniac a question, I'm not interested in your input (or your friend that keeps trying to change the subject).


You  are the one changing the subject. This thread is about why there is trouble installing via DVD. Suggesting installing via memory stick is OK. But insisting that anyone not doing it that way is in some way wrong is changing the subject.

Please behave. Your answers does not sound kind to others.


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## tux2bsd (Nov 21, 2022)

larshenrikoern said:


> You  are the one changing the subject. This thread is about why there is trouble installing via DVD. Suggesting installing via memory stick is OK. But insisting that anyone not doing it that way is in some way wrong is changing the subject.


No, I have not changed the subject.

This really shouldn't need spelling out: Trying with a memory stick achieves something, it verifies an install will work via another mechanism. He can install again with his DVD after that if he chooses...  If it doesn't work with USB, it might not be just the DVD.  

The other thing to try for similar reasons is an older, or newer, version of FreeBSD.

If those all fail, he might need to give FreeBSD a pass on that machine.

edit: It appears he has it installed (could be on another machine).


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## tux2bsd (Nov 21, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> The machine in question does not reliably boot from USB media. It's not uncommon for machines of that era.


A common machine from 2015 not being able to boot from USB would be exceptionally rare.  Sounds like you got unlucky on that machine.


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

tux2bsd said:


> A common machine from 2015 not being able to boot from USB would be exceptionally rare.  Sounds like you've got a dud.


Sounds like you need to go play outside. Why are you even here adding nothing of value?


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## tux2bsd (Nov 21, 2022)

Insomniac you wasted everyone's time with your antiquated hardware and/or faulty media.


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

tux2bsd said:


> You were wrong on the internet.
> 
> So, fill people in properly, did you get that machine working?  You weren't clear.


I've outlined my root cause analysis and results in my posts. Go demand your money back from elementary school because they failed to teach reading comprehension.


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## SirDice (Nov 21, 2022)

tux2bsd can play in the doghouse for a couple of days. I've had enough of it.


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## Crivens (Nov 21, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> I've outlined my root cause analysis and results in my posts. Go demand your money back from elementary school because they failed to teach reading comprehension.


Yes, and you did a good investigation. Good job. I'm sorry you ran into one of the more notorious beings here. This happens from time to time.


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## VladiBG (Nov 21, 2022)

Insomniac when you verify sha256 checksum on the DVD disk, did you use the same computer or it's another one? Your DVD may be read correctly on the DVD drive where it was recorded but it can fail on another DVD drive. You can try the following on the computer where you are trying to install it:

Boot the server via the DVD and select <Live CD> then:

`cd /usr/freebsd-dist/
setenv DISTRIBUTIONS `ls *.txz`
bsdinstall checksum`

This will perform the same sha256 on all distribution files *.txz inside /usr/freebsd-dist/ and compare they SHA256 checksum against the /usr/freebsd-dist/MANIFEST It's pretty much the same as you did with the sha256 but it's on the actual machine where you try to install it. You can use and your method `ls ; cat MANIFEST ; sha256sum *.txz` but try it from the LiveCD on the actual computer.

Note: The screen of bsdinstall checksum will NOT update the last entry to 100% as it's not intended to be run as standalone.
If you are interested to see what the checksum script does you can view it from /usr/libexec/bsdinstall/checksum


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

VladiBG said:


> Stuff.


Thanks for trying to help. The cause of the issue has been found and resolved.


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## hardworkingnewbie (Nov 21, 2022)

It would be very helpful for future readers of this discussion if you could explain what the cause and solution was, Insomniac.


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## smithi (Nov 21, 2022)

VladiBG said:


> Insomniac when you verify sha256 checksum on the DVD disk, did you use the same computer or it's another one? Your DVD may be read correctly on the DVD drive where it was recorded but it can fail on another DVD drive.



If you read post #15 I think you'll find that Insomniac did test the flaky DVD on the target machine, when he had Mint Linux installed and still had errors, but only with that particular DVD.

I thought that post explained very thoroughly that it was just that one bad DVD, even when later re-written with 13.1-dvd1 so I had responded to that, but if wrong I stand to be corrected.

Thanks for informing about bsdinstall checksum though. I don't recall seeing that happening when I installed 12.3-R from dvd1 (on USB), but maybe I misremember.

cheers, Ian


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## smithi (Nov 21, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> It would be very helpful for future readers of this discussion if you could explain what the cause and solution was, Insomniac.



It's essentially all in post #15


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## Insomniac (Nov 21, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> It would be very helpful for future readers of this discussion if you could explain what the cause and solution was, Insomniac.


After investigation it turned out my issue was this. I had a disc that would burn and verify to be correct on a system. Then trying to use it on another system it would fail. Where other discs of the same brand never failed before.

This disc works on the machine it was created on, but did not work on the target system. Unlike the same discs I had been using for years to do the same exact thing working on both the creating and target systems. Never had an issue with any of these discs, but this specific disc failed in a way I've never seen before. The machine writing the disc has no issues reading it. The target machine cannot read it for reasons unknown. Hope that clarifies the issue.

99.99% of FreeBSD users are never going to see this issue. It is specific to the hardware and discs I'm using. It is also an extremely rare issue, I've never seen this before in over 20 years of using optical media. It's a rare unicorn, don't worry about it.


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## VladiBG (Nov 21, 2022)

Sorry I miss post #15
You can ignore my previous post.


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## larshenrikoern (Nov 21, 2022)

VladiBG said:


> Sorry I miss post #15
> You can ignore my previous post.


I would say. Your post was very informative and easy to use and understand. We need more of that


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## Insomniac (Nov 22, 2022)

Geezer said:


> Insomniac, get some sleep!


Definitely maybe.


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## Datapanic (Nov 22, 2022)

FreeBSD-13.1-RELEASE iso size is very close to the max capacity of a single sided DVD.  Maybe the older drive was unable to read past a limit...  Glad you got it fixed anyway.


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## Insomniac (Nov 24, 2022)

I'll add on to my last post a bit for people wanting a summary of the situation because it wasn't specific enough.

To say that the disc failed isn't correct. The disc works on the creating system, and also works on a third system I have. Had I used that one to install FreeBSD there never would have been a problem.

The problem is also not that the disc failed in the target system entirely. I could boot FreeBSD and follow along the install procedure until the point where it wanted to start copying/extracting data from archives.

The specific issue is an incompatibility between the disc used and the DVD drive reading it, where it will read some of it, but not all. Two hours before burning this disc I burned a Linux Mint iso to a same brand same type disc and it worked without problems.

Like I've stated, never seen this specific issue before in over 20 years of using optical media.

Key lessons learned:
1) There is nothing I could have done to prevent the issue before it happened. Verifying a disc after a write I've been doing for over 20 years, no different from how I verify backups after writing them. Didn't help one bit in this case.
2) Media used can have issues no matter how many times it's never been a problem in the past.


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## Insomniac (Nov 24, 2022)

And for the OMG just use USB sticks LOL WTF crowd, your media will fail on you at some time in the future, it's only a matter of time.


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## zirias@ (Nov 24, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> And for the OMG just use USB sticks LOL WTF crowd, your media will fail on you at some time in the future, it's only a matter of time.


Just for the records, you're obviously correct that any storage media will break some day, but the risk to just read _incorrect_ data is substantially higher with optical media.


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## Insomniac (Nov 24, 2022)

zirias@ said:


> Just for the records, you're obviously correct that any storage media will break some day, but the risk to just read _incorrect_ data is substantially higher with optical media.


What do you base that on? I'd love to see a study comparing failure modes between different media types, but never seen one. In the words of Miss Shirley Bassey: It's all just a little bit of history repeating.


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## Voltaire (Nov 24, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> Where other discs of the same brand never failed before.


The problem with writable CD/DVD has always been that in percentage terms a fairly large proportion of these products are delivered defective, even with the best brands.
Normally if you write more than twenty CD/DVD of the best brand that exists, there will always be at least one defective one.

Another problem is that the (re)writable CD/DVD deteriorates very quickly over the years.
I'm glad that this medium has become obsolete because, contrary to what some say, this was never a decent medium.


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## Insomniac (Nov 24, 2022)

zirias@ said:


> Voltaire said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with writable CD/DVD has always been that in percentage terms a fairly large proportion of these products are delivered defective, even with the best brands.
> ...


Strongly disgree, these discs have served me well for many years and lasted nearly a decade. This "deteriorates" I'm not seeing in actual use of the discs. A decade of use is more than you can get ouf ot most tech products these days, so don't be to quick to poo poo on getting actual value out of your devices. The alternatives are not pretty.


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## Insomniac (Nov 24, 2022)

At some point either of you will learn to make a new topic instead of just commenting here.


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## Voltaire (Nov 24, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> Strongly disgree, these discs have served me well for many years and lasted nearly a decade. This "deteriorates" I'm not seeing in actual use of the discs. A decade of use is more than you can get ouf ot most tech products these days, so don't be to quick to poo poo on getting actual value out of your devices. The alternatives are not pretty.


I used to always try to buy the best brands and had frequent problems on different burners and I used K3B with 4x speed because it would give the best results. What I also noticed with almost all types of CD / DVD that you frequently use, after 5 years the audio is no longer acceptable and has noticeably deteriorated. There are few people who are more careful with hardware than I am, so I think you may be using your DVDs very little.

Furthermore, there are also the following facts:


			How long do writable CD/DVD last? 400 discs put to the test! | RLV Blog
		

_It is a *well known fact* that the CD-R’s and DVD-R’s that you burn at home won’t last forever (neither does factory made media, for that matter, but that’s another story).
Of the 420 discs, a total of about 20 discs had read errors or other major problems that stopped me from copying them. *Many other discs were difficult to read*, but made it through in the end.
More surprisingly though, four of the BASF discs had read errors. Given that I only had 10 of these in total, it’s not a good result._
There are also technical reasons that explain why many CD/DVD disc are delivered defective, and why all CD/DVD discs degrade very quickly with frequent use. There are _many_ reasons why this is always the case for any CD/DVD.





						All about CD-R and CD-RW
					

CD-R and CD-RW technologies use a combination of metal and dye to fool CD-ROMs into thinking they're reading commercially prepared CDs. In this Daily Drill Down, Faithe Wempen shows you how to troubleshoot your CD writing.




					www.techrepublic.com
				



_I might spend $20 for a huge spindle of generic CDs and *discard 10 percent due to recording problems*. After figuring in my lost time in waiting for the recordings, it’s not much of a bargain. These errors are usually caused by manufacturing defects in the CDs, inferior scratch-resistant coating, or scratches from being stored against other discs on the spindle.
A "burned" CD can fail easily if you expose it to high temperature and/or very bright light. Sunlight inside a car is an example. This can make your CD/R unreadable *very fast*.
All optical discs have three key layers in common:_

_Coating layer that protects the reflective layer._
_Shiny layer that reflects the laser._
_Polycarbonate disc layer that stores the data._
_Different types of optical discs contain different layers and the reflective layer is most susceptible to damage.
Standard compact discs typically have a reflective layer made from aluminum. When exposed to air, aluminum oxidizes, which naturally happens around the edges of the CD. However, degradation of the reflective layer is not the only cause of disc rot, the chemical or physical deterioration of data which results in information becoming unreadable.

These underlying causes of disc rot are manifold and can include any of the following:
    Oxidation or corrosion of reflective layer.
    Physical damage to disc surfaces or edges, such as scratches.
    Galvanic reaction between layers and coatings.
    Chemical reactions with contaminants.
    Ultra-violet light damage.
    Breaking down of disc materials, e.g. de-bonding of adhesives between layers.

 There is also CD bronzing, which is caused by a fault in manufacturing. This manifests as a brown discoloration (or "mold") starting at the edge of the disc and working its way towards the middle.
There's some disagreement over what causes CD bronzing, but it's most likely to be either the lacquer used to coat discs or the silver (used instead of aluminum) reacting with the sulfur found in sleeves and accompanying booklets. This forms the brown silver sulfate.

You might not expect this, since CDs and DVDs are made to be spun around, but *if you rotate one of them very quickly it will shatter*, appearing to immediately become a bunch of chunks of sharp plastic.

Most CD/DVD drives were also not well developed, and had many problems and *often failed quickly*._

In terms of quality, the CD/DVD is an absolute low point. I've been using some SanDisk USBs as CD/DVD replacements for over 15 years, and I have to say I've had no problems with any USB stick in that time. For SSD you will also usually have much better lifespan than CD/DVD provided you have a minimum TBW of 150, which is what almost all SSDs offer. So in terms of lifespan and retention of data, that is a night and day difference.


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## Insomniac (Nov 24, 2022)

Yes cd and dvd media do not last forever. Surprising nobody. Never made the argument they would last forever. They're useful in their use cases, even today. Good luck getting anyone to read that wall of text.


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## Insomniac (Nov 24, 2022)

Tell me more about cds and dvds I don't know. It's not every day we have an expert.


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## Insomniac (Nov 24, 2022)

I've tried to entertain cats with these discs but they got bored, now my game won't install, what do?


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## Insomniac (Nov 26, 2022)

If I go to the store today to buy a DVD+R or DVD+RW, and buy a USB stick. Then after writing a FreeBSD iso on both put them on a shelf.

After 3 years I estimate the chances for both to be perfectly readable very high, as in somewhere around 99.5%. Functionally there is no difference. Some people seem to believe there should be a significant difference here.

This belief seems be based on posts like the one linked and zero failure data for USB. Expecting a lifespan of 14 years out of consumer discs isn't realistic.

It's cool some discs last that long, but if you wanted to archive data for such a period the smarter choice would be something like BluRay M-Disc or other medium that was built for the job. Not DVD, not USB sticks either.

Where is the failure data for USB sticks after 14 years? It's just assumed USB sticks don't fail when making the comparison to DVD. It's not very rational to only look at one side of a comparison and never examine the other. I've seen USB sticks fail, if you haven't yet, give it time.

The only sensible strategy dealing with media is to assume all of them can and will fail and plan accordingly so failures are least impactful. There is no shortage of people that only started making backups after losing data, claiming they never had a need to until it happened. But hey, if you want to pray at the church of USB that's your choice.

Just because a technology is older, does not mean it is dysfunctional.

"Floppy disks have been out of production for about a decade, but the Japanese government just started to phase them out, the Nikkei reported over the weekend." from https://www.businessinsider.com/jap...hase-out-2021-10?international=true&r=US&IR=T

Japan wouldn't still use floppy disks in 2021 if it was a problem. Note they cite cost as a reason for migration, not reliability.


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## tux2bsd (Nov 26, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> Good luck getting anyone to read that wall of text


Says the guy that posted walls of text, well done.  Also, you had to had to clarify to two other people that you found out all of this was due to your media and/or drive - you said learn to read, how about you learn to write.

Why SirDice chose to single out and punish the person who was being personally attacked I'm not sure.  Looks to me like Insomniac is spamming the thread, I haven't been here so his behaviour has nothing to do with me.


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## Insomniac (Nov 26, 2022)

tux2bsd said:


> Says the guy that posted walls of text, well done.  Also, you had to had to clarify to two other people that you found out all of this was due to your media and/or drive - you said learn to read, how about you learn to write.
> 
> Why SirDice chose to single out and punish the person who was being personally attacked I'm not sure.  Looks to me like Insomniac is spamming the thread, I haven't been here so his behaviour has nothing to do with me.


I don't have to do anything for you to continue to dig your own grave. You're just here for drama, not anything related to technical details. Do us all a favor and get a TV subscription instead. No shortage of reality TV channels.


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## Crivens (Nov 26, 2022)

tux2bsd said:


> Why SirDice chose to single out and punish the person who was being personally attacked I'm not sure.  Looks to me like Insomniac is spamming the thread, I haven't been here so his behaviour has nothing to do with me.


You do not learn, do you?


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## zirias@ (Nov 26, 2022)

Among all this noise, I just want to state I don't think anyone said solid-state memory wouldn't die. And I won't do any comparison to optical media about general durability, I don't have any data on that.

All I said is: in case of failure, with optical media, it's much more likely that wrong data is read instead of just failing to read altogether.


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## tux2bsd (Nov 26, 2022)

tux2bsd said:


> Why SirDice chose to single out and punish the person who was being personally attacked I'm not sure.





Crivens said:


> You do not learn, do you?


I'm not sure what you're on about nor why Insomniac is choosing to involve himself.  As always, the solution is to stop replying - which I'm happy to do (thread unwatched, bring me back by summoning me).


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## Insomniac (Nov 26, 2022)

zirias@ said:


> Among all this noise, I just want to state I don't think anyone said solid-state memory wouldn't die. And I won't do any comparison to optical media about general durability, I don't have any data on that.
> 
> All I said is: in case of failure, with optical media, it's much more likely that wrong data is read instead of just failing to read altogether.


My entire point is and has been that nobody has presented a single shred of credible evidence why they believe what they do. When challenged on their statements people just go silent. I've seen better discussions in high school. This is amateur hour if generous.


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## Crivens (Nov 26, 2022)

This thread has been derailed enough. Any last words?


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## Insomniac (Nov 26, 2022)

Crivens said:


> This thread has been derailed enough. Any last words?


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## mer (Nov 26, 2022)

Crivens said:


> This thread has been derailed enough. Any last words?


The moderators have shown extraordinary patience?


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## Crivens (Nov 26, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> 30 minutes and not a single comeback. None of you have fun at your job. Taking multiple hours to decide on anything just shows you're spineless.


Wow, making friends fast.
FYI, this is my spare time. Free of charge. You have no position to demand anything from moderators.


mer said:


> The moderators have shown extraordinary patience?


Thank you for the compliment.


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## Insomniac (Nov 26, 2022)

Crivens said:


> Wow, making friends fast.
> FYI, this is my spare time. Free of charge. You have no position to demand anything from moderators.
> 
> Thank you for the compliment.


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## Insomniac (Nov 26, 2022)

Insomniac said:


> Not demanding anything. Not here to ruffle feathers. I'd love for my posts to not be deleted, that is all. You should know this as you disappeared into this multi hour long talkathon. Pretending it is a surprise is disingenuous.


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## Crivens (Nov 26, 2022)

Insomniac Let me see. You seem to be a real professional. Please tell your friends not to come here. Not when they can't engage in polite discussion, that is. Offering advise where to stick things is a sure way to get your posts bined, you know? This is not reddit. And please tell your clients that you base your opinion of FreeBSD on your broken DVD not working. They should be very impressed. I certainly would base some decisions on that. And now I will spend time with my kids. You should do the same. It is very rewardig.


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## DutchDaemon (Nov 27, 2022)

Oops, tripped into the lock button.


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