# The Tragedy of Systemd



## justinnoor (Feb 15, 2019)

Excellent presentation by Benno Rice titled “The Tragedy of Systemd.” I checked briefly to see if this was already posted and did not see any similar posts. Please inform me if it was so it can be removed.

The Tragedy of Systemd


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## forquare (Feb 15, 2019)

I watched it the other day and felt he made some very good points.

I was a little surprised he didn't add SMF from Solaris into the comparison.  While I dislike administering Linux systems for the unfamiliarity of systemd commands, I was very happy with SMF when I was a Solaris admin.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 15, 2019)

Sorry to say this but _Systemd_ is not necessarily considered as a "_Tragedy"_ for a Linux developer.
There are many Linux developers that are very fine with _Systemd_.

However, the real Unix developer might have quite different vision about it.

By the end _Systemd_ is very good for Linux. It allows to make Linux more like Windows - good for a large majority of Linux users. Remember that Linux is used largely for Desktop


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## justinnoor (Feb 15, 2019)

Benno Rice explains why Systemd is _considered _a tragedy. He’s not claiming it is. The title can be misleading.


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## Sevendogsbsd (Feb 15, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> Sorry to say this but _Systemd_ is not necessarily considered as a "_Tragedy"_ for a Linux developer.
> There are many Linux developers that are very fine with _Systemd_.
> 
> However, the real Unix developer might have quite different vision about it.
> ...



Why on earth would anyone want to make an OS more like Windows? Windows is a horrific nightmare: overly complex, bad UI, and don't even get me started on the registry, or the broken patch process.


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## forquare (Feb 15, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> Sorry to say this but _Systemd_ is not necessarily considered as a "_Tragedy"_ for a Linux developer.
> There are many Linux developers that are very fine with _Systemd_.



You might like to listen to the talk


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## Spartrekus (Feb 15, 2019)

forquare said:


> You might like to listen to the talk



This talk gives known opinions.
The title might be intended to catch attention. He started his talk with the choice of title.
Edit: I added "Desktop" above.


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## Rand0m (Feb 15, 2019)

I watched this talk on YouTube in a BSD conf and then here. I didn’t like its tone in the Linux conference (the one here). Personally I felt this version was a bit negative and (kind of) condescending in some ways.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 15, 2019)

blueCub said:


> I watched this talk on YouTube in a BSD conf and then here. I didn’t like its tone in the Linux conference (the one here). Personally I felt this version was a bit negative and (kind of) condescending in some ways.



Maybe look at it from observer point of view... if it helps.
It is not so much critical. He gives his opinion about it, answer questions.
Anyhow this talk is not so much impacting on BSD.


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## Rand0m (Feb 15, 2019)

The BSD conf version of the talk was great. I didn’t enjoy the Linux one though.

It’s good and healthy to criticise the BSDs and tohave different opinions to the mainstream way of thinking, but it’s not super nice to mock others for simply not agreeing with your opinions. That’s how I personally felt, and it’s a common thing in Benno Rice appearances. Constructive at BSD conf and not much repeating the same talk in front of Linux users.


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## Sevendogsbsd (Feb 15, 2019)

Listening to it now - I like it, great talk and very informative. Dispels a lot of myths that I have heard and provides what appears to be an unbiased view of systemd. It's not what I was expecting. Thanks for providing the link.


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## Rand0m (Feb 15, 2019)

A better version of this talk


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## client (Feb 16, 2019)

fail to see the "excellent/very good/great in it; you can't dispel something if you use the same L. P. logic.


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## ralphbsz (Feb 16, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> Remember that Linux is used largely for Desktop


False.  Linux is mostly used as a server operating system.  Linux has a very small market share in the desktop market ... a few percent at most; if you include tablets and cell phones in the consumer computer count, then Linux' market share drops to less than 1% (the big ones are Android, iOS, and Windows, in that order).  It has an extremely high market share in the server market, depending on who you ask it is somewhere between 50% and 90%.  In some specific server markets its share is even higher.  For example, among supercomputers (the big scientific and national security machines), Linux market share is 100%: every single machine on the top500 runs Linux.  Among the big server companies (like Alibaba, Amazon, Apple, Baidu, Facebook, Google, ...), Linux runs the vast majority of all servers; and those companies have more computers than there are consumer-owned laptops and desktops (today there are more servers in the world).



Sevendogsbsd said:


> Windows is a horrific nightmare: overly complex, bad UI, and don't even get me started on the registry, or the broken patch process.


While you may very well be right from a technical point of view, Windows is also a massive success in the market place, and remains it.  Among desktop and laptop machines (excluding cellphones and tablets), Windows has a market share of ~90%, and only MacOS gets anywhere close.  Linux is in the single-digit percents (I think about 2% or 3%), and non-Linux OSes like FreeBSD are in the tenths of a percent.

For the average non-specialist computer user, Windows is, for better or for worse, the #1 choice.


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## Vull (Feb 16, 2019)

An old analogy I've heard many times is that most users just want a car where they can put in a key and drive without too much tinkering required. That's true of most of the people I know including most industry professionals. What seems to be a large majority of people want something that works "out of the box" which they can drive effortlessly and without worrying too much about how it works. Old chestnut but helps explain the wider popularity of products like Windows, and maybe to a lesser extent, free software like GNU/Linux offers. Helps explain also-- if it's even true-- why FreeBSD developers pay real money to use Mac OS, and also, how Debian derivatives like Linux Mint and Ubuntu can compete so well against Debian.

Edited to add: ... and maybe it also helps to explain the success of systemd which is purported to make some things easier, but I'm not really convinced yet, and these videos were informative but haven't convinced me either in that regard.


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## Deleted member 9563 (Feb 16, 2019)

Sevendogsbsd said:


> Why on earth would anyone want to make an OS more like Windows? Windows is a horrific nightmare: overly complex, bad UI, and don't even get me started on the registry, or the broken patch process.


Simply because they want it to be like what most people are using. Your comments about it, though I might agree, are irrelevant to most people. This is probably the biggest tragedy in the history of modern computers.


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## Deleted member 9563 (Feb 16, 2019)

Vull said:


> Old chestnut but helps explain the wider popularity of products like Windows,



I don't think so. Windows does not work out of the box very well. It takes a long time to click through a lot of stuff when one gets a new machine. I've done it for others and been surprised at the time it takes - a quick Linux install from scratch is almost comparable. An hour would be reasonable for someone who hasn't done it numerous times before.  I don't know about running Windows on a daily basis myself but all I hear is complaints and horror stories from users - not to mention the press. 

I believe the real reason for the popularity of Windows is the activity of their legal department. I've heard it's their largest, but regardless, the contracts with hardware suppliers is the key. Nothing to do with any qualities of the OS itself. 

One could actually argue that MS is more of a legal contract company than an OS developer. I'd certainly think that with the revenue they have available, that after all these years if they really were a software company foremost, their products would be near bug free by now.

PS: There's probably not a lot of MS-Windows fans, let alone shills, on this forum. But I'd like to add that regardless of the legitimate complaints that one can rightfully hurtle at their operating systems, I do see that a lot of people, including consummate professionals, are able to use it very well to their advantage.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 16, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> False.  Linux is mostly used as a server operating system.  Linux has a very small market share in the desktop market ... a few percent at most; if you include tablets and cell phones in the consumer computer count, then Linux' market share drops to less than 1% (the big ones are Android, iOS, and Windows, in that order).  It has an extremely high market share in the server market, depending on who you ask it is somewhere between 50% and 90%.  In some specific server markets its share is even higher.  For example, among supercomputers (the big scientific and national security machines), Linux market share is 100%: every single machine on the top500 runs Linux.  Among the big server companies (like Alibaba, Amazon, Apple, Baidu, Facebook, Google, ...), Linux runs the vast majority of all servers; and those companies have more computers than there are consumer-owned laptops and desktops (today there are more servers in the world).
> 
> 
> While you may very well be right from a technical point of view, Windows is also a massive success in the market place, and remains it.  Among desktop and laptop machines (excluding cellphones and tablets), Windows has a market share of ~90%, and only MacOS gets anywhere close.  Linux is in the single-digit percents (I think about 2% or 3%), and non-Linux OSes like FreeBSD are in the tenths of a percent.
> ...



A phone, a server (there are)....
It does not matter actually.

One the most amazing system is the Android (Phone, Tablet). That high power consumption thing...
Yes Yes, users accept to access contacts, including involving business contacts and infos in it.
Access to SD card, ... this is amazing that the mass buy Android and accept all this junk of Google INC Corporation.

Corporation might control this planet


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## Vull (Feb 16, 2019)

OJ said:


> I don't think so. Windows does not work out of the box very well.


I essentially agree but Windows offers quick internet access and a usable GUI desktop out of the box, as do Mac OS and most GNU/Linux distributions. Some of the FreeBSD derivatives are also competitive on those particular points because they want to "give the people what they want" as per tried-and-true Madison Avenue-style advertising folklore.

The Windows configuration needs for most people will all be on a GUI interface, which is what casual users usually prefer. Personally I'd rather have a few text configuration files I can easily edit and/or copy over to a new host, instead of having to hand-configure each machine up-close-and-personal on its GUI interface, but there you are. Many of us on this forum are not representative of most people and don't always want what the majority of people want.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 16, 2019)

Vull said:


> I essentially agree but Windows offers quick internet access and a usable GUI desktop out of the box, as do Mac OS and most GNU/Linux distributions. Some of the FreeBSD derivatives are also competitive on those particular points because they want to "give the people what they want" as per tried-and-true Madison Avenue-style advertising folklore.
> 
> The Windows configuration needs for most people will all be on a GUI interface, which is what casual users usually prefer. Personally I'd rather have a few text configuration files I can easily edit and/or copy over to a new host, instead of having to hand-configure each machine up-close-and-personal on its GUI interface, but there you are. Many of us on this forum are not representative of most people and don't always want what the majority of people want.



For educational activities, from early school ... then engineering, computer sciences,.... it is important to start with Microsoft Windows, Office, ... it is a part of education. You won't write on your CV only opensource softwares.


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## Deleted member 9563 (Feb 16, 2019)

Vull said:


> I essentially agree but Windows offers quick internet access and a usable GUI desktop out of the box,


And indeed so does Linux. I don't think I've ever seen it come up without a workable internet connection. That's the first thing it does. And the desktop of your choice too. I honestly don't think Windows has anything on Linux when it comes to having a solid internet connection and a working desktop. I am talking from experience here, but you may have a point if we go back 5 years. Of course if you're not willing to take the distro as it comes out of the box, then all kinds of things can happen.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 16, 2019)

OJ said:


> And indeed so does Linux. I don't think I've ever seen it come up without a workable internet connection. That's the first thing it does. And the desktop of your choice too. I honestly don't think Windows has anything on Linux when it comes to having a solid internet connection and a working desktop. I am talking from experience here, but you may have a point if we go back 5 years. Of course if you're not willing to take the distro as it comes out of the box, then all kinds of things can happen.



Linux can harm your router/ ... it does not well the networking. 
Check for instance the live distro of devuan into /usr/sbin/....


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## Vull (Feb 16, 2019)

OJ said:


> And indeed so does Linux.


Okay but just to be clear, that's what I said after the comma where you clipped my sentence.


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## ShelLuser (Feb 16, 2019)

At the risk of diverting the topic a little bit, but...



OJ said:


> Windows does not work out of the box very well. It takes a long time to click through a lot of stuff when one gets a new machine.


I have to disagree on that   I recently got a new machine running on Win10 and the setup process didn't take longer than 5 minutes or so. Another thing you're overlooking (or so I think) is that the whole process can also easily be automated if you want to. A few simple scripts are enough, and then you don't have to click through anything. This was already possible back in the XP days.

And well....  Windows easily detected my printer and installed the drivers for it whereas Linux requires me to muck around with CUPS. Which did manage to detect the printer (Samsung SCX 4623, an older machine), claimed to have a driver available but that driver never worked for me   (and others, according to some Google searches).

Everything is easy if you know how to do it, yet if you don't know then an environment such as Windows can do a whole lot for you.



OJ said:


> I don't know about running Windows on a daily basis myself but all I hear is complaints and horror stories from users - not to mention the press.


Problem with such comments is that most people are more inclined to share their horror stories and will take it for granted when things work just the way they want.



OJ said:


> I believe the real reason for the popularity of Windows is the activity of their legal department. I've heard it's their largest, but regardless, the contracts with hardware suppliers is the key. Nothing to do with any qualities of the OS itself.


You'd be surprised.

Windows goes a lot deeper than you think. I've been both a Solaris and Windows admin and I can tell you that underneath the GUI Windows is a lot more like Unix than many people are willing to believe. Example... back in the days; checking the logs of several servers to see if nothing went wrong. All I basically needed was one simple PowerShell script and that's it. Roughly something as this: _*Get-EventLog -ComputerName server1,server2,server3,server4 -LogName system -EntryType error -Newest 5*_, and wham; I get the last 5 error messages in the system log for 4 servers at once.

Powered by a management service that has been part of Windows ever since XP.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to insinuate that Windows is perfect, but it's a lot more structured and designed than most people give it credit for. Which is understandable given the fact that most people don't look beyond the GUI and all those annoying options 

For the record: I'm using Win10 on a daily basis and I actually enjoy it. For servers I fully rely on FreeBSD which I also enjoy working with.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 16, 2019)

Hej, Windows is just junk because you do not have the source code.
Therefore it is useless to use a closed source operating system for any single use.

All software should be free, at least in school and universities, and readily opensource for educational interests.

Education should be first reason, for not using Windows.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 16, 2019)

I must have been substituting caffeine for sleep because I either misplaced a 500GB Travelstar HDD with Win10Pro I was playing Oblivion on or it's running FreeBSD 12 now. I have the game backed up and a 200GB Scorpio Black I can load Win7 on my W520 with a disk and it be recognized as valid install through the BIOS when I get around to it.

I won't be taking it online but when I set up Win10 spent a whole day looking for this .exe to do this and one to do that, locking it down before ever going anywhere but a MicroSoft site and still felt like I was vulnerable to exploit the whole time I was online. It was nerve wracking. 

Windows beats Wine but isn't good for anything but gaming as far as any use I may have for it.

I couldn't care less about SystemD as long as we don't use it.


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## tommiie (Feb 16, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> Hej, Windows is just junk because you do not have the source code.
> Therefore it is useless to use a closed source operating system for any single use.


That is nonsense.


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## justinnoor (Feb 16, 2019)

I interpreted this presentation not as a selling point, but as an invitation to be open minded in terms of understanding why Systemd emerged, and why it was so widely adopted.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 16, 2019)

systemd reported as mem hog








						RHEL7: "Systemd" deamon is consuming huge memory - Red Hat Customer Portal
					

Memory leak issue in systemd-219-19.el7_2.13.x86_64 Server response is slow due to high memory usage. "top" output shows 'Systemd' daemon is consuming high % memory. top - 08:50:34 up 39 days, 9:18, 1 user, load average: 2.69, 2.66, 2.44 Tasks: 145 total, 5 running, 140 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0...




					access.redhat.com


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## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 16, 2019)

ShelLuser said:


> For the record: I'm using Win10 on a daily basis and I actually enjoy it. For servers I fully rely on FreeBSD which I also enjoy working with.



One of the better things I found when trying to lock down Win10 was Glasswire for GUI network monitoring. It will start at boot and tell you the first time an app accesses the net and other useful information of that type IMO.

It claims to be a firewall but I wouldn't trust it over the resident Windows firewall or considered it as such, but the price is right.


P.T Barnum must be rolling over in his grave at the depths I've sunk in promoting Windows...


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## Spartrekus (Feb 16, 2019)

Trihexagonal said:


> One of the better things I found when trying to lock down Win10 was Glasswire for GUI network monitoring. It will start at boot and tell you the first time an app accesses the net and other useful information of that type IMO.
> 
> It claims to be a firewall but I wouldn't trust it over the resident Windows firewall or considered it as such, but the price is right.
> 
> ...


Using Win10, come on!


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## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 16, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> Using Win10, come on!



I plead Not Guilty to the astonishing allegation against me as a Daemon in relatively good standing and acrimoniously act as my own attorney in this slanderous slam on my stature, sensibilities, style, spirit and skill, Sir Spartrekus. 

At the grace of the court, at this time I'd like to submit my previous statement into evidence as Exibit #1 and reserve the right to submit a screenshot to the appropriate thread, if the court so allows:



Trihexagonal said:


> I must have been substituting caffeine for sleep because I either misplaced a 500GB Travelstar HDD with Win10Pro I was playing Oblivion on or it's running FreeBSD 12 now.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 16, 2019)

Trihexagonal said:


> I plead Not Guilty to the astonishing allegation against me as a Daemon in relatively good standing and acrimoniously act as my own attorney in this slanderous slam on my stature, sensibilities, style, spirit and skill, Sir Spartrekus.
> 
> At the grace of the court, at this time I'd like to submit my previous statement into evidence as Exibit #1 and reserve the right to submit a screenshot to the appropriate thread, if the court so allows:



OK, Enjoy any OS you would like 

May the FreeBSD Force be with you, always, Sir Trihexagonal.


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## Deleted member 9563 (Feb 17, 2019)

ShelLuser said:


> Everything is easy if you know how to do it, yet if you don't know then an environment such as Windows can do a whole lot for you.


In my experience it is rare to meet anybody who actually  knows how to do much with computers other than run a few applications. Scripting is so far advanced that it might as well be brain surgery to the common user, and I don't think that anybody who even knows what that is makes up a measurable percentage of Windows users. Not in Western Canada where I live, anyway. I don't think the majority even install extra programs.

As for the Windows install, sure that's easy for you, but for me the multiple screens that one has to click through when a computer arrives fresh from the store with Windows on it requires some contemplation. This is what I was thinking about, the initialization of a machine as it arrives from the local store. Installing from a disk is only something that I've tried once, and it didn't work because it complained about product keys or something like that which is outside of my expertise - not that I couldn't learn if it was important enough - (un)fortunately it wasn't.  The whole world of proprietary software and its DRM has it's own learning curve which I think is often ignored because it's not considered "technical". It is however a stumbling block if one doesn't know how it works.

In any case we are indeed drifting off topic.  You and I don't need to argue about this anyway, since I do understand what you're saying. Also, the irony here is that I actually dropped Linux as my main OS to come to FreeBSD about 10 years ago, exactly because I felt Linux was moving in the Windows direction.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 17, 2019)

OJ said:


> In any case we are indeed drifting off topic.  You and I don't need to argue about this anyway, since I do understand what you're saying. Also, the irony here is that I actually dropped Linux as my main OS to come to FreeBSD about 10 years ago, exactly because I felt Linux was moving in the Windows direction.


 
or actually give a try:


			Life in UNIX® V7: an attempt at a simple task | Virtually Fun


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## justinnoor (Feb 17, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> systemd reported as mem hog
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This presentation does not focus on the minutia. The author is not trying to sell Systemd. He highlights the big picture, showing how Systemd is a reaction to the realities of our time, despite its imperfections. Today, a sysadmin is expected to implement cloud deployments, microservices, and devops pipelines. This _fact _has a huge impact on service and process management, and vastly changes the ways in which our systems connect with the rest of the world, both internally and externally.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 17, 2019)

justinnoor said:


> This presentation does not focus on the minutia. The author is not trying to sell Systemd. He highlights the big picture, showing how Systemd is a reaction to the realities of our time, despite its imperfections. Today, a sysadmin is expected to implement cloud deployments, microservices, and devops pipelines. This _fact _has a huge impact on service and process management, and vastly changes the ways in which our systems connect with the rest of the world, both internally and externally.



Process management is made "easy" with systemd. 

Luckily for the moment FreeBSD is systemd free...
If FreeBSD goes to Systemd, then, it is better to move to NetBSD.


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## linux->bsd (Feb 17, 2019)

systemd is an abomination. The only ones not convinced of this are those that don't administer systemd systems. That's the disconnect between the glowing praise from the speaker and reality. Point-by-point I can direct you to documentation from systemd's own developers of how to fix what systemd breaks _by preventing systemd from doing what it was designed to do_. The theory behind systemd is great: make all of these different Linux systems adhere to a general standard, so that knowing how to administer one translates to being able to administer all the others. But systemd is garbage in practice, unable to meet up to the lofty goals it set for itself.

The biggest reason I left Linux is because of the low quality standards adopted by its community -- everyone is so desperate to get their new toy published and get praised for it that they don't bother putting in the effort to make a high-quality product. FreeBSD suffers much less from that. It is a well-throughout operating system, where development decisions just make logical sense (for the most part).

Yes, the BSDs could benefit from a well-designed and well-implemented type of "systemd" (the opposite of existing systemd), which is what the presenter was trying to convey, but he's clueless about systemd in the real world.


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## justinnoor (Feb 17, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> Luckily for the moment FreeBSD is systemd free...



Once again, nobody in the presentation, or in this post, is advocating for Systemd. This presentation highlights the challenges that Systemd attempts to address, and how various communities have reacted to these challenges, including the BSDs. That’s the gist of this presentation.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 18, 2019)

You point clearly that BSD is not refuge. "BSD for refuge is a crap idea"
Yeah, because BSD will evolve too. If there is no evolution, it will simply no longer exist. Innovation is necessary for evolution.

A refuse to "change" is actually not positive. Because this world is moving in a given direction ; to refuse to move in its direction has something to do with anarchism.

Why to use still a terminal, when there are modern technologies?

Practically, there is no choice. Just to follow the technological evolution. Reality is a bit like this. You get up in the morning and have no choice. Indeed, in large companies, there is the standardization. Which means that your IT arrives in the morning to your office, - "hello", he gives you a Windows Win10 PC machine (+ a smartphone), same as your colleagues. There are necessary software's, which are recommended. If you need a specific software, call IT.


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## Deleted member 9563 (Feb 18, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> Why to use still a terminal, when there are modern technologies?


For sure. The ultimate modern technology would be to just get someone else to do it. I don't even need to know what they did.


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## kpedersen (Feb 18, 2019)

OJ said:


> For sure. The ultimate modern technology would be to just get someone else to do it. I don't even need to know what they did.



I used to think that and it was a little bit depressing but after a while I realised that either due to greed, bloat or skills shortage this "ultimate modern software product" will disappear and we will "regress" again back to using the good old classics following the KISS principles.

Just look at a simple organism like a tardigrade, it keeps on going in absurd environments due to its "relative" simplicity compared to us fleshy weak humans who can't even survive a couple of hundred degrees 

So something like Java will never survive against something like C because it is too complex, unportable and unmaintainable. Only a very few developers would know even where to start, just for the VM alone.

Likewise this all encompasing systemd will never win against a few shell scripts. All it takes is a slightly radical environment change (clustering?, quantum processors?, increased isolation / security) and so much will have to be rewritten in systemd so naturally everyone will revert back to simple ductape scripts. An example is that I could easily port a simple FreeBSD 12 startup script to FreeBSD 7 but I could not port a Debian 9 startup script to Debian 4. And it will go both ways. You wont be able to port a Debian 9 startup script to Debian 19 but you likely will be able to port a FreeBSD 12 script to FreeBSD 22 due to simplicty and lack of change.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 18, 2019)

OJ said:


> For sure. The ultimate modern technology would be to just get someone else to do it. I don't even need to know what they did.



It has something to do with knowledge access, how to do things. If an engineer learn not to be capable to use sockets or do file operations in C, Pascal, Assembler,... the better. Microsoft will help and get excellent _free_* software's ready for your activities. You cannot keep the _terminal_ endlessly, you need to go for modern shining desktops and user interfaces, where there is lot of money. But, this is just for today.


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## fryshke (Feb 19, 2019)

Trihexagonal said:


> I won't be taking it online but when I set up Win10 spent a whole day looking for this .exe to do this and one to do that, locking it down before ever going anywhere but a MicroSoft site and still felt like I was vulnerable to exploit the whole time I was online. It was nerve wracking.



You have mental problems.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 19, 2019)

fryshke said:


> You have mental problems.



Please detail them for me, I'd be most interested in hearing your opinion on my mental state.

And, please, be brutally honest...


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## tommiie (Feb 19, 2019)

There is too much mud slinging and personal assaults on these forums :-(


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## fryshke (Feb 19, 2019)

Trihexagonal said:


> Please detail them for me, I'd be most interested in hearing your opinion on my mental state.
> 
> And, please, be brutally honest...


Youtube some videos of people who are paranoid or germophobes. Now look at yourself. Uncanny, eh?

Also, take a look at flat earthers and how false beliefs make them look. 

I mean... dude... Millions if not billions of people use Windows daily and not everyone is h4xx0r3d, get a grip on yourself. Jesus...


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## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 19, 2019)

fryshke said:


> Youtube some videos of people who are paranoid or germophobes. Now look at yourself. Uncanny, eh?
> 
> Also, take a look at flat earthers and how false beliefs make them look.
> 
> I mean... dude... Millions if not billions of people use Windows daily and not everyone is h4xx0r3d, get a grip on yourself. Jesus...



You mean the Earth isn't flat?

But having a background in the mental health field I can appreciate your view.


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## fryshke (Feb 19, 2019)

Trihexagonal said:


> You mean the Earth isn't flat?
> 
> But having a background in the mental health field I can appreciate your view.


You can't, stop trolling.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 19, 2019)

fryshke said:


> You can't, stop trolling.



Is it wrong of me to question you in your eyes? I can't tell.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 19, 2019)

it is likely faster to code oneself a tiny application under Unix (BSD), rather than googling for several  freeware or "closeware" to  suit the need under Win.

Actually, it is just 10 min coding, instead.

Additional benefit, if you make use of your term or ncurses, you can compile it on any other nix operating system.
If BSD is no longer, then plan B, plan 9 from outer space Plan9 : it's rock.


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## ralphbsz (Feb 19, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> it is likely faster to code oneself a tiny application under Unix (BSD), rather than googling for several  freeware or "closeware" to  suit the need under Win.
> 
> Actually, it is just 10 min coding, instead.


I want to see you code up Visio in 10 minutes.  Or Excel.  You are off by many orders of magnitude.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 19, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> I want to see you code up Visio in 10 minutes.  Or Excel.  You are off by many orders of magnitude.


Excel and Visio with ncurses is not possible. Maybe fltk? I don't know. 

a simple lotus like in DOS like, just about 1 hour.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 19, 2019)

tommiie said:


> There is too much mud slinging and personal assaults on these forums :-(



There isn't usually. It seems some new members are trying to find their place in the natural pecking order by being quite aggressive. They will get bored and return to their beautiful Microsoft garden soon enough (or their OS will break itself and render itself unusable). Either way, it won't affect us .


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## malavon (Feb 19, 2019)

tommiie said:


> There is too much mud slinging and personal assaults on these forums :-(


Having read certain recent people's posts, I'm starting to think that a few people discovered this forum, noticed it was a pretty peaceful place and decided to stir it up intentionally.
One of the reasons I've long abstained from creating a username on this forum (and only did that to post about something very specific), is that I wanted to make
sure the community was actually a positive one. It is, and a few people won't change this at all. Just don't get triggered and let them be. They'll get bored fast.

I'll try to steer this thread back on topic.
Even though Systemd has been received with mixed feeling across the communities, that shouldn't mean there is no value in it at all. Since I'm not a Linux user at all
and am really content using FreeBSD as my day-to-day OS, I lack experience with it. I would however be very much interested if someone with experience could list
up the benefits that he/she has experienced. Even people who don't like it must have something positive to say about it


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## Minbari (Feb 19, 2019)

Bla bla bla bla. If you don't like systemd then don't use it. Mod close this mess!


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## Deleted member 9563 (Feb 20, 2019)

There are many reasons to use, or not use, systemd. One doesn't need to tally up various theoretical technical points. Personal preference is a perfectly good reason.


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## aragats (Feb 20, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> Windows is just junk because you do not have the source code.


Logical fallacy.
QNX is a great OS, but it's closed-source.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 20, 2019)

OJ said:


> There are many reasons to use, or not use, systemd. One doesn't need to tally up various theoretical technical points. Personal preference is a perfectly good reason.



High resource usage is sufficient to not use it. 
Furthermore a single Big program to control everything is not unix.


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## recluce (Feb 21, 2019)

Moderator, please close this thread.

If there was a single post that addressed the factual issues with systemd (and there are plenty), I missed it due to all the noise.

BTW: I stopped listening to the OP's linked video at the point where the presenter stated in regard to the systemd portability limitations that Unix is dead and "today you have Linux and some rounding errors".


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## cynwulf (Feb 22, 2019)

It's interesting that systemd can be so contentious that even FreeBSD users are fighting over it...

What is clear to me is that FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, TrueOS, DragonFly, etc, etc, etc, will forever be a "perpetual downstream" (so far as ports/desktop stuff goes), working with and around, the crap coming down the pipe from the Linux/systemd/freedesktop/gnu world.


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## kpedersen (Feb 22, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> will forever be a "perpetual downstream" (so far as ports/desktop stuff goes), working with and around, the crap coming down the pipe from the Linux/systemd/freedesktop/gnu world.



Thats actually fine. I would rather have to handle a fossilised dinosaur turd than a fresh one!

I almost like to think of Linux in general being the CURRENT or UNSTABLE branch of UNIX. Then when things are finally correct, they are available for less hobbiest users. I also note that so much Linux stuff actually disappears (after making such a massive noise) before it ever hits production, so I am quite happy to wait rather than waste my time learning it only to see it get replaced next week.

The biggest example is Wifi and networking. There are so many different ways over the last few years to set this up:

/etc/network/interfaces
/etc/systemd/network/25-wireless.network
/etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifcfg-wlan0
I am quite happy to wait until they finally decide on one... Or stick with how FreeBSD has done it for ages. I think the most radical change we ever had was that you needed to create the wlandev before using it (FreeBSD 9?).

That said, I don't dislike Linux. I do however dislike "modern" Linux and what it is becoming. A massive time waste in many aspects.


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## linux->bsd (Feb 24, 2019)

Minbari said:


> Bla bla bla bla. If you don't like systemd then don't use it. Mod close this mess!



Sorry, but that is an extremely naive statement. systemd slowly engulfed the most popular Linux OSes one by one: Fedora (2011), Arch (2012), CentOS (2014), SuSE (2014), Ubuntu (2015), leaving fewer and fewer options to "just don't use it." That's how free software and services works: if not enough people forcefully reject what they see as bad practice, then bad practice becomes the norm. There is a pattern being set by systemd, which Linus himself worried about: it is a rejection of giving people choice -- Google did it with Android and Chrome, so Mozilla followed suite with Firefox; Apple does it with all of their products. They force people to accept what benefits their companies at the expense of personal freedom of the consumer (choice). What good is the freedom to choose when the options are all the same garbage in different flavor?


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## drhowarddrfine (Feb 24, 2019)

A former client of mine offered me a boatload of money if I would write some Linux drivers for their product line. To do some preliminary investigation, I started installing a few Linux distros to see which one I would use to do the work. 

Linux is a zoo. Not the St. Louis Zoo or the San Diego Zoo. It's not Marlin Perkins' Wild Kingdom even. It's like wandering the bad parts of town and seeing rats creeping out of every corner. And I'm not done yet. And I AM being nice.

I might do a brief write up about this in a few days.


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## tedbell (Feb 24, 2019)

Minbari said:


> Bla bla bla bla. If you don't like systemd then don't use it. Mod close this mess!



Thank you. This anti-systemd stuff is getting out of hand. I didn't like it that much either when it took over in Arch Linux but I never had any problems with it beyond "a stop job is waiting for..." and a couple error messages at shutdown.


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## ralphbsz (Feb 24, 2019)

kpedersen said:


> I almost like to think of Linux in general being the CURRENT or UNSTABLE branch of UNIX. Then when things are finally correct, they are available for less hobbiest users.


You seem to be saying that Linux is used by hobbyists, and by implication that Linux development is driven by the needs and wants of hobbyists.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The vast majority of all Linux installations are used as servers, by "professionals", such as the FAANGs (Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Google, and by implication other large cloud-based companies such as Alibaba or IBM), by industry in general (GE, GM, and other companies whose names starts with "General"), by government (whether is is weather forecasting or national security), and by supercomputers.  And the number of machines in these uses is gigantic.  For example, look at the Top500 list of supercomputers: Every single one runs Linux, and each of them are somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^3 to 10^6 CPUs.  The big data centers of the FAANGs have millions of Intel chips too ... mostly running Linux.  The Linux ecosystem is dominated by professional server use, if you count the numbers.

Or look at public-facing servers.  There is a reason it's called a "LAMP" stack: They all have Linux.  There is some debate about Linux' market share among public-facing servers (depending on how you measure it, the number is between 50% and 90%), but the number of these machines is still huge.

It gets even more stark if you look at the money flow. Linux today is a big industry, with the two largest players being RedHat and SUSE.  Those are multi-billion dollar companies.  They drive the development of Linux packaging and the Linux kernel, together with IBM and Intel (both of whom contribute large amounts of manpower and money to Linux development, to some extent through the foundation).  Both RedHat's and SUSE's revenue comes from customers who pay for supported versions of the OS (famously RHEL, where the "E" stands for enterprise).  In RedHat's case, they de-facto control Fedora (through their sponsorship) and CentOS (which is just a free clone of RHELs packaging).  There are many million Linux machines that get their OS distribution and support through these support contracts; very few hobbyists pay for support.  So if you measure influence by the amount of money changing hands, hobbyists are even more irrelevant to the Linux ecosystem than by raw machine count.

Face it: Systemd exists because several large Linux entities (foremost RedHat and SUSE) think it is a good idea.  And these people are neither stupid nor criminals.  Systemd does indeed solve a real-world problem, namely that the whole mess of how to start processes and services had become unmanageable complex.  In my personal opinion, systemd is low-quality software, which is focused on the wrong use case (Lennart cares about his desktop experience, and grudgingly supports server features), and written by a famously sociopathic person.  But it is (for better or worse) still preferable over the alternative, which is why the Linux big companies continue to not just support but embrace it.

Personally, I use and manage quite a few Linux machines with systemd, and have even have to write services that work under it (including configuring systemd).  It's painful at first, and after a while you get it to work.  Would I prefer to do it in a RC-based or Init-based setup?  Absolutely, but I don't get to make that choice.


----------



## aragats (Feb 24, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> Would I prefer to do it in a RC-based or Init-based setup? Absolutely, but I don't get to make that choice.


I'm involved in a commercial project based on Beaglebone Black, and I have made that choice: I switched Debian to _openrc_ – it's still possible in "official way".
So far, so good: hundreds of such controllers work in production for more than a year. From time to time I perform system updates using official Debian repositories, haven't seen any impact of missing _systemd_.


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## forquare (Feb 24, 2019)

pyret said:


> I'm unclear how systemd doesn't meet the "off topic" rule:
> 
> Since systemd isn't a part of any BSD operating system, not sure how this technical debate about Linux is allowed to continue.



I guess because the talk in the OP was given by a FreeBSD developer, although the recording was taken at a Linux event it originally debuted at a BSD event.

I must admit that I though of posting it here in the hope it would generate interesting discussion about a BSD "System Layer".  I then thought that a certain maturity was needed for such discussions so decided against it.  It's been fun watching how the thread developed


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 24, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> You seem to be saying that Linux is used by hobbyists, and by implication that Linux development is driven by the needs and wants of hobbyists.  Nothing could be further from the truth.


Obviously what you say is true. Linux is very much a staple of enterprise systems because it is convenient for servers.

However, when it comes to desktop Linux, I very much think the opposite is true. It is aimed towards hobbyists pretty much exclusively. The many Wifi systems, beta (albeit default) Wayland on many distros, experimental systemd features are all things that are keeping the Linux desktop back, pretty niche and far from fit for business purposes.

I think the main reason why we think otherwise is because many *developers* choose Linux; but I don't really think that is for the merit of the OS but purely because it is the closest match to their production setup.

But many distros are quite honest with this. Fedora is an early access to RHEL features (basically a beta) and thus the users of it can't really be anything other than hobbiests and enthusiasts. When you then realise that most other distros follow suite with the _same_ versions of things like systemd because all distros kinda update their software at the same time... surely that makes their users also beta testing enthusiasts?


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## ralphbsz (Feb 25, 2019)

Honestly, I don't know what fraction of desktop Linux users are hobbyists and religious believers.  A lot of software developers use Linux on the desktop (usually laptop), but in addition to the correct reason you give (matches their server production setup), there is also the reason that many software developers are diehard open source fans, and will refuse to use Windows or Mac or a Chromebook, because it is not "pure" enough; that's religion or dogma.  But to each their own ... if they want to run it on their desktop, fine with me.

I know that there are non-hobbyist non-expert computer users who download and use Linux.  Recently I've found a few examples among elderly (and often not very wealthy) people, for whom Linux is an inexpensive and easy-to use choice.  And I know that there are corporations where Linux is the standard OS given to employees; usually those companies use supported versions (such as RedHat and SUSE).  But I don't know whether this adds up to a significant number.  It can't be a lot, given that the market share of Windows and MacOS together in the desktop/laptop market is about 97% or 98%, depending on whom you ask.


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## drhowarddrfine (Feb 25, 2019)

I am of the firm belief that 80% of all computer users wouldn't even own a computer if it weren't for games. All the other things they now use it for are coincidental. Note the uprise in people eschewing the desktop in favor of laptops and, now, phones alone that can play games.


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## ProphetOfDoom (Feb 25, 2019)

Maybe it's because I'm not a "power user" but I would never have known I was _even using_ systemd if I hadn't witnessed other people moaning about it.
I never play games. It seems a frivolous thing to do given my impending death.
I like coding . And I use my smartphone to keep in touch with those I love.
(It's a Huawei phone with a Google userland so it is probably the most Orwellian phone I could have chosen - lol).
Sorry for drifting off topic as usual...


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## bookwormep (Feb 25, 2019)

I tried to research the systemd issue about five years ago. I collected references, blogs, newsfeeds, and 
articles written pro and contrary. In fact, the very reason I started FreeBSD was that it was absent.
But, that does not mean I would throw away an entire learning-curve or experience all at once. This gave me some space to experiment both "with" and "without" systemd environments.

The history of software development has many waves of innovation that can improve performance and
reliability. There have been many, many litigation cases that steer the software developments which
exist in the world today. Basically, don't go against the stream of development. Complain and argue
the merits, and when there are breaches of ethical standards - then yes, please speak up.


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## Woolie Wool (Feb 26, 2019)

linux->bsd said:


> systemd is an abomination. The only ones not convinced of this are those that don't administer systemd systems. That's the disconnect between the glowing praise from the speaker and reality. Point-by-point I can direct you to documentation from systemd's own developers of how to fix what systemd breaks _by preventing systemd from doing what it was designed to do_. The theory behind systemd is great: make all of these different Linux systems adhere to a general standard, so that knowing how to administer one translates to being able to administer all the others. But systemd is garbage in practice, unable to meet up to the lofty goals it set for itself.
> 
> The biggest reason I left Linux is because of the low quality standards adopted by its community -- everyone is so desperate to get their new toy published and get praised for it that they don't bother putting in the effort to make a high-quality product. FreeBSD suffers much less from that. It is a well-throughout operating system, where development decisions just make logical sense (for the most part).
> 
> Yes, the BSDs could benefit from a well-designed and well-implemented type of "systemd" (the opposite of existing systemd), which is what the presenter was trying to convey, but he's clueless about systemd in the real world.



You've met plenty of people who administer systemd systems and haven't had those problems, but you haven't noticed because people don't write long stories on the internet about how their software does exactly what it's designed to do. Unix stopped being a "lean and mean" "worse is better" system in the '80s and the sky hasn't fallen. Most of the major Linux distros (including distros targeted to "serious" admins like Arch) have switched to systemd and the sky hasn't fallen. The entire Android ecosystem, which is fragmented across hundreds of device manufacturers and at least two ISAs, runs on Java, and the sky hasn't fallen. Windows keeps getting bigger every year but the sky hasn't fallen. Lean software obsessives might as well be a rapture cult at this point. *_* software ecosystem is certainly going to collapse under its weight _this_ time! Just you watch!

But it. Never. Happens.



AlexanderProphet said:


> Maybe it's because I'm not a "power user" but I would never have known I was _even using_ systemd if I hadn't witnessed other people moaning about it.
> I never play games. It seems a frivolous thing to do given my impending death.
> I like coding . And I use my smartphone to keep in touch with those I love.
> (It's a Huawei phone with a Google userland so it is probably the most Orwellian phone I could have chosen - lol).
> Sorry for drifting off topic as usual...


The Huawei part doesn't even matter--unless you're Chinese, the Chinese government couldn't care less about whether you're a dirty subversive. Worry about your own government.

Also IME the entire point of systemd is fading invisibly into the background, automating key aspects of system administration so you can direct your attention to more interesting things. Interfering with systemd doing its job is likely to do more harm than good.


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 26, 2019)

The systemD concept is actually very good and was not new when they brought that, and so there were not just SMF for them to get ideas, but also there are some good ideas from Amoeba etc.

The real problem is the problem of almost all software inside the Linux ecosystem: *low quality*. Those who rely heavy on Linux, like Google or big irons (aka IBM), usually do a lot of in-house engineering  to make that reliable (and of course never release the code), inclusive their own release engineering - so in practice it is not the _same_ Linux we can freely download.

One thing I really don't understand is how they are able to have so many poor designed and implemented stuff. They are quite competent into that.

The Linux Foundation is supposed to support Linux, and looking on their Members it is really easy to guess they should get *at very least* `x15` more money than the FreeBSD Foundation and still have a crap sound stack, with an ever worse sound server, crap graphics stack etc.

It is not like the Linux Foundation need to rely on some individual willing to write a (e.g.) great audio/sound stack and server on his/her free time for them, like they do. They could simply contract specialized professionals to design and implement one (like the FreeBSD Foundation does when there is money available for that).

*[EDIT]*

If I had to use Linux for something like development or desktop I would probably settle with Arch Linux but using Ravenports instead of their build/package system.


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## Phishfry (Feb 26, 2019)

rigoletto@ said:


> The systemD concept is actually very good and was not new


Yes but certain things like journald came with it.
Binary logs really make me sad. There is no way I should need a log reader to look at my logs.
Look at how FreeBSD handles logs.
They are rotated and archived. That is ideal to me.
BInary logs are not.


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 26, 2019)

Phishfry said:


> There is no way I should need a log reader to look at my logs.



I have no opion about binary logs, but you still need vim/cat/less/something to read logs on FreeBSD, and for staters I don't see a really practical difference into those.


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## Phishfry (Feb 26, 2019)

Human readable versus machine optimized.
I get your point.
cat /var/log/messages | tail -n 30


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## aragats (Feb 26, 2019)

In my opinion binary logs are unacceptable, what we can gain with them? Save a couple of bytes or a couple of milliseconds?
How would you watch a log in real time, like we do now?
`tail -f /var/log/messages`


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 26, 2019)

aragats said:


> In my opinion binary logs are unacceptable, what we can gain with them? Save a couple of bytes or a couple of milliseconds?
> How would you watch a log in real time, like we do now?
> `tail -f /var/log/messages`



There are other implementations I also don't know how they work, but since the talk is about journald I did a search over jounalctl:

`journalctl -f`



> List all journal entry that is in the system will be displayed in real-time. Last 15 lines would be displayed, similar to running *tail /var/log/messages -f*.



This Digital Ocean tutorial bring some opinions.


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## aragats (Feb 26, 2019)

That's good they provide such options, but still, what's the point?
It's like in large companies you often receive a MS Word/Excel attachment with a simple list of actions or similar, or even worse: a single picture is inserted in MS Word document.


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 26, 2019)

Based on the Digital Ocean article I pointed, that centralize all logs which bring some _interesting_ logs manipulation opportunities; however that is not the only implementation...


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## Phishfry (Feb 26, 2019)

I like what I have. Good for them.
journalctl -n 20

After reading that DO article I could see where a programmer might think it is better.
Providing binary data for applications to access and manipulate.


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 26, 2019)

Phishfry you made me remember a talk I had with a good Gentoo developer some time ago about the eternal fight between sysadmins and developers:

_sysadmins doesn't want anything to change becuase they don't want to have to re-learn how to admin the system, and developers are always willing to do changes to improve with new features._ Or something like that. _ _


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 26, 2019)

Just amend, I don't know Benno, I never had any contact with him but I liked his presentation, specially the BSDCan one, but being a Ada/SPARK (and also OCaml at some extend) advocate I do really, really have to disagree when he says something about it imust be buggy because it is software (but that is a complete different story), and I do leave a VIDEO why.


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## Phishfry (Feb 26, 2019)

But a valid question is how would you debug a system by looking at logs when they are in binary.
In FreeBSD I mount the downed computers filesystem from a USB rescue stick and cat the logs.
tail -n 30 cat /mnt/var/log/messages

journalctl a broken systems disks logs from a rescue system. I bet that ain't as easy.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/ques...ct-systemd-system-journal-from-another-system


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 26, 2019)

Good point, IDK, but would be worthy to look on how that, if any, is implemented in Solaris SMF and launchd. 

A hint would be to run NextBSD (or simply look for a Mac) to look how launchd does that. I would do that if I had not invented to upgrade the whole OCaml stuff.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 26, 2019)

BINARY LOGS:

I use GZIP for many things. vim can even read a gzip document.   vim  log.gz  will give nice log.
xz certainly not, zip certainly not, but gz is fair ok, if after some time the log will be "archived" with gz.


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## phoenix (Feb 27, 2019)

pyret said:


> The Linux discussion continues unabated and seemingly this isn’t off topic.



It's in the Off-Topic forum, but still tangentially related to FreeBSD.

While the discussion has taken a few wrong turns, it's remained mostly on-course for a useful discussion.  We're watching this thread closely, though.  So far, it's okay to continue.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 27, 2019)

rigoletto@ said:


> Good point, IDK, but would be worthy to look on how that, if any, is implemented in Solaris SMF and launchd.
> 
> A hint would be to run NextBSD (or simply look for a Mac) to look how launchd does that. I would do that if I had not invented to upgrade the whole OCaml stuff.



NextBSD could be nice, does it still go on?








						GitHub - NextBSD/NextBSD: FreeBSD src tree
					

FreeBSD src tree. Contribute to NextBSD/NextBSD development by creating an account on GitHub.




					github.com
				




In same direction, alternatives to BSD:
_NetBSD_ is actually a superbe alternative to _FreeBSD_, especially for "high-performance" servers.
For sure, NetBSD will never get a Systemd inside 

Actually, who really knows about it for FreeBSD, maybe in 20 years freebsd + systemd ? no one is able to predict the future. There are large companies relying on BSD as well.


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## rigoletto@ (Feb 27, 2019)

The reason I pointed to NextBSD was becuase it has/was Mach and Launchd implemented into it, and so would be a quick alternative to MacOS if someone would like to take a look on how those work (I don't have Apple products for instance).


----------



## forquare (Feb 27, 2019)

Phishfry said:


> But a valid question is how would you debug a system by looking at logs when they are in binary.
> In FreeBSD I mount the downed computers filesystem from a USB rescue stick and cat the logs.
> tail -n 30 cat /mnt/var/log/messages
> 
> ...



Not particularly knowledgeable in this area so speaking only from experience.  On the standard CentOS 7.x systems we have at work the regular log files are available.  I frequently grep(1)/tail(1)/whatever /var/log/messages and other log files. 
I can rescue a system from a CentOS USB stick and check out the logs using regular tools. 

My guess is that journalctl gives the option to easily output in additional formats/methods, and optionally turn logging to a file off.

I find it intriguing that the cloud team at work rarely consider individual systems, there are hundreds of them running a few services.  They care about service stability and uptime.  Logging into a single machine to check out some logs is probably a waste of time because either the issues is happening everywhere, or the machine in question can be destroyed and rebuilt without majorly impacting the service.  
For them they generally want a fairly high-level view of systems, centralised location.  For the applications they generally want finer-grained views, but still in a central place.



Spartrekus said:


> BINARY LOGS:
> 
> I use GZIP for many things. vim can even read a gzip document.   vim  log.gz  will give nice log.
> xz certainly not, zip certainly not, but gz is fair ok, if after some time the log will be "archived" with gz.



I've seen people use vim to look at logs and they have always ended up making some mistake where the forget to pass the "-R" flag, or don't know about Read-Only mode, and modified the log (maybe because they were filtering the contents) and accidentally write the modifications out because of muscle memory.

Personally I usually use less(1) for regular log files (switching to view(1) if I want more vim-like controls, but often use multiple pipes before) , and zless(1) for bz2/gz/xz/zip compressed log files.


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## ralphbsz (Feb 27, 2019)

If someone who has root permissions uses vim on the live log of a system, they need to be taken behind the barn and hit with a stick.  OK, that was a joke.  They need to get an education of how to safely operate as a system administrator (which includes not using root if it is not necessary), and how to use Unix commands safely.  And the will get the root password back only after they have demonstrated safe work practices.

Another thing that gets forgotten in this whole discussion of "binary" log files in systemd: In the default configuration of systemd, it does create clear text log files in /var/log, including the log rotation behavior.  My little machine at home that uses systemd for example has all the standard log files:

```
# fgrep -i eqmon /var/log/daemon.log*
/var/log/daemon.log.1:Feb 20 06:33:59 pumphouse systemd[1]: Started EQmon monitoring daemon.
/var/log/daemon.log.1:Feb 21 10:17:04 pumphouse systemd[1]: Started EQmon monitoring daemon.
# uname -a
Linux pumphouse.example.com 4.14.86-v7+ #1175 SMP Thu Dec 6 14:04:38 GMT 2018 armv7l GNU/Linux
# more /etc/debian_version
9.6
```
This machine is an RPi, running Raspbian, but that is nothing but Debian recompiled for Arm, and with systemd.  Just to show how easy it is to use systemd, here is the whole config file for a service:

```
# more /etc/systemd/system/eqmon_pumphouse.service
[Unit]
Description=EQmon monitoring daemon

[Service]
User=plumber
WorkingDirectory=/home/plumber/lr_eqmon
ExecStart=/home/plumber/lr_eqmon/eqmon_pumphouse
Restart=on-failure

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target
```
This replaces the /usr/local/etc/rc.d/eqmon file in FreeBSD, which is 27 lines long, plus the 1-liner in /etc/rc.conf.


----------



## Rand0m (Feb 28, 2019)

Spartrekus said:


> In same direction, alternatives to BSD:
> _NetBSD_ is actually a superbe alternative to _FreeBSD_, especially for "high-performance" servers.
> For sure, NetBSD will never get a Systemd inside


I'm a bit intrigued, Can you please explain more why you think NetBSD is superb alternative to FreeBSD? 
I like NetBSD and started playing with it for couple of weeks now but curious to know what makes you think it is superb to FreeBSD.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 28, 2019)

forquare said:


> Not particularly knowledgeable in this area so speaking only from experience.  On the standard CentOS 7.x systems we have at work the regular log files are available.  I frequently grep(1)/tail(1)/whatever /var/log/messages and other log files.
> I can rescue a system from a CentOS USB stick and check out the logs using regular tools.
> 
> My guess is that journalctl gives the option to easily output in additional formats/methods, and optionally turn logging to a file off.
> ...



zless might take a lot of memory because of pipe .. no?

Here is the description concerning this related journalctl systemd topic: https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/systemd/journalctl/


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## justinnoor (Feb 28, 2019)

forquare said:


> the cloud team at work rarely consider individual systems
> 
> Logging into a single machine to check out some logs is probably a waste of time



Very astute observations. It is inefficient to go fishing for random log files on, for example, a container cluster. `journalctl` allows you to access log files of the host and of specific containers. It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that systemd was designed with microservices in mind. As far as why `journalctl` has to be part of the init system is question worth exploring.


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## justinnoor (Feb 28, 2019)

blueCub said:


> Can you please explain more why you think NetBSD is superb alternative to FreeBSD?



Very interesting question! You might try creating a post for that .


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## drhowarddrfine (Feb 28, 2019)

justinnoor said:


> Very interesting question! You might try creating a post for that .


Such a post would be off topic and not allowed.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 28, 2019)

blueCub said:


> I'm a bit intrigued, Can you please explain more why you think NetBSD is superb alternative to FreeBSD?
> I like NetBSD and started playing with it for couple of weeks now but curious to know what makes you think it is superb to FreeBSD.



sensucht94 is a proponent of NetBSD. I suggest asking at DaemonForums where they have a NetBSD sub-forum and might possibly reply.

He has screenshots of his desktops on my site as do other FreeBSD forum members of their unbastardized BSD and UNIX boxen.


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## Spartrekus (Feb 28, 2019)

Systemd is very important to be discussed, because it affects much Unix systems (whatever if Linux can be Unix-like system, maybe it was).


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## forquare (Feb 28, 2019)

justinnoor said:


> As far as why `journalctl` has to be part of the init system is question worth exploring.



Or is it?  Is systemd purely an init system?  My understanding was that it was a sub-system that (necessarily) includes init functionality.
Similarish to the way that the Linux project revolves around creating and maintaining a kernel, whereas the FreeBSD project revolves around creating and maintaining an Operating system that (necessarily) includes a kernel.


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## gpw928 (Mar 20, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> Systemd does indeed solve a real-world problem, namely that the whole mess of how to start processes and services had become unmanageable complex.



The heart of the issue, I think.  

Linux init and rc scripts are simple to read, open, transparent, and easy to trace.  Their software tools approach makes for easy component management.  However they are not easy to write well.

I find systemd complex, dense, and opaque.  Systemd offers more, a lot more, but at a big price.  Its reach is vast (and expanding).  It feels like a "Windows" style solution.  Comprehensive, but daunting.

I really enjoyed the video.  And the message I took away (and have always thought) is that "the whole mess of how to start processes and services" is *still* looking for a good solution.

However you are completely correct about Linux (increasingly with systemd) dominating the commercial markets.  Automated deployments and containerisation are just accelerating that.  Everything else if falling by the wayside.

So I'm pretty sure that systemd *is already *the solution in the commercial world.  C'est la vie.  It's what the proprietary vendors used to call "adding value"...


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## D-FENS (Mar 20, 2019)

it's the ethernal topic: monolithic vs. modular, script vs binary.
Systemd has some nice benefits like faster boot in some scenarios. But in some other scenarios it's simply not flexible enough. If you put constraints on stuff, inevitably you'll break some use cases that need more flexibility. Otherwise we would simply put all kernel, userland and ports in a single overbloated binary and call it a day. That's what systemd tries to do.


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