# Learning with electronic devices at early age?



## Spartrekus (Jun 21, 2018)

*Use of electronic devices in the classroom: Impact on learning ?*

Hello

What is your opinion about learning with electronic devices at early age (ELC, primary schools,... and higher up secondary)? UK implements early electronic medias, tablets,... computers (of course no FreeBSD and no opensource have any place there, as you may know ). You may think about learning to write with a pen, influence on communication & respect of others,... fitness, ... and major learning steps.

Since Maths require Writing and Exercise / Practice, you' ll significantly get less engineers, you'll may observe more math difficulties, or even interests for maths.

Furthermore, there is a difference between active learning and passive learning. There is a difference between visual images and mental images. Mental images can be easily produced without any electronic devices, just by listening to speaker. Art of rhetoric and impact on open mind will be reduced by using electronic devices. What about concentration skills, while kids are focused on other things and challenges of electronic life? Nature, rest, self consideration, self perception of oneself, persons, communication, love, you & others. Loving, listening and highly respecting others and differences.

Best regards


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## SirDice (Jun 21, 2018)

Spartrekus said:


> What is your opinion about learning with electronic devices at early age (ELC, primary schools,... and higher up secondary)?


Can't start them early enough in my opinion. Although I would put a time constraint on it, they do need lots of time to properly socialize of course. And that means physically interacting with their peers. 

My writing has sucked from day 1, from kindergarten and onward. I have terrible hand writing. And I've only been using computers since I was 12 (I was the first in my class that wrote his homework on a computer). I actually think my writing has improved significantly by typing it. Nobody, including me, was able to read my hand written notes, so I rarely did. Now I'm typing pages upon pages of text. And most of it makes some kind of sense.


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## Spartrekus (Jun 21, 2018)

SirDice said:


> Can't start them early enough in my opinion. Although I would put a time constraint on it, they do need lots of time to properly socialize of course. And that means physically interacting with their peers.
> 
> My writing has sucked from day 1, from kindergarten and onward. I have terrible hand writing. And I've only been using computers since I was 12 (I was the first in my class that wrote his homework on a computer). I actually think my writing has improved significantly by typing it. Nobody, including me, was able to read my hand written notes, so I rarely did. Now I'm typing pages upon pages of text. And most of it makes some kind of sense.



Thank you for your post.

Sometimes research tries to link handwriting with maths, but well.
More reading: https://www.ispacs.com/journals/metr/2014/metr-00035/article.pdf

btw, playing an instrument of music may help in many cases.


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## SirDice (Jun 21, 2018)

Spartrekus said:


> More reading: https://www.ispacs.com/journals/metr/2014/metr-00035/article.pdf


Only skimmed the abstract but:


> The result indicated that when students find it difficult to write legibly, it affects their overall achievement in school mathematics and hence weakens their educational progress.


For me the quality of teachers had more influence in this respect. Bad math teacher, bad grades. Average teacher, average grades, good teacher, good grades. Although admittedly, I was already writing BASIC programs on the C64 for my dad by that time. I did like math and maybe as a result liked computers. Or I liked computers and this fueled my interest in math. I'm really unsure what influenced me first. Computers definitely helped either way.


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## Spartrekus (Jun 21, 2018)

SirDice said:


> Only skimmed the abstract but:
> 
> For me the quality of teachers had more influence in this respect. Bad math teacher, bad grades. Average teacher, average grades, good teacher, good grades. Although admittedly, I was already writing BASIC programs on the C64 for my dad by that time. I did like math and maybe as a result liked computers. Or I liked computers and this fueled my interest in math. I'm really unsure what influenced me first. Computers definitely helped either way.



You learn, means that you are in control of yourself, as an adult.


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## chrbr (Jun 21, 2018)

Dear Spartrekus,
here in Germany it is similar. My guess has been that there are instances who have a strong interest in stupid people. Ok, here we have very unlucky traditions with that. My opinion is that using electronic media in school is more about consuming rather than about reflecting things.
From the experience with my children I think that it needs many triggers to have the right life balance. If they have been doing sports, leisure or stuff for school - they have been only happy if everything matches. Children have almost unlimited energy which can be exhausting. But please pray that this will never change.


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## Spartrekus (Jun 21, 2018)

chrbr said:


> Dear Spartrekus,
> here in Germany it is similar. My guess has been that there are instances who have a strong interest in stupid people. Ok, here we have very unlucky traditions with that. My opinion is that using electronic media in school is more about consuming rather than about reflecting things.
> From the experience with my children I think that it needs many triggers to have the right life balance. If they have been doing sports, leisure or stuff for school - they have been only happy if everything matches. Children have almost unlimited energy which can be exhausting. But please pray that this will never change.




Let's indeed pray that it will get better. At some point, it won't be possible to go back, because we are at the age of medias. Look many persons learning on tablets, but not on printed papers or even ebooks. Kids and students get tired easily with these kind of devices. They may have more difficulties to learn and to concentrate. It is not easy to learn with a monitor or a few inches tablets.... Anyhow.

Of course, it is only about yourself. You are in control. You can make the choice to use only best method for yourself to keep highest level of concentration. Just think about Dr. Einstein who could keep up many many hours.

To take a pen and sheet of paper for learning maths will remain the best method. This is very probable. For instance, Mathematica Wolfram have particular interests, but this should not replace learning mathematics and active learning. It also depends which fields of mathematics. Mathematica Wolfram is also widely common, because industry needs engineers that may use well these softwares.

Maybe the future of learning will be just electronics and multimedias. MS, Apple and Google will be there of course to make great supports for sales. Teenagers and kids are a good target for business. (Bonus/+) they are likely to keep using MS or Apple products later.


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## chrbr (Jun 21, 2018)

Spartrekus said:


> Take a pen and sheet of paper for learning maths will remain the best method.


Yes, because this involves more sections of the brain rather than "just looking". And that makes learning stable. Unfortunately those guys do not need courses all the time. And even worse, they might be able to prepare themselves for future tasks. That is not good for the economy.


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## Spartrekus (Jun 21, 2018)

chrbr said:


> Yes, because this involves more sections of the brain rather than "just looking".



However, ... it evolves in the direction of "modern" era. Maybe in 30-40 years, we'll have no paper book any longer (which is hopefully not probable).

The economy lives from this system. Informatics especially.

I just prove it to you (no comments):
http://www.4-traders.com/stock-exchange/shares/North-America-8/


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## SirDice (Jun 21, 2018)

I think we need to take into account the different types of computer usages. Using a smartphone, tablet or game console is probably more the 'consuming' kind. While Arduino, Raspberry Pi, Lego Mindstorms and all fall more into a 'creative' kind. I often wished the latter was available when I was young and starting to take interest in things.

I might be a bit biased though, at around 6 or 7 I already knew I wanted to learn about electronics. And at that time chips started appearing in devices, those odd black rectangular shaped components really intrigued me. One thing led to another and before age 13 I had learned by myself how that C64 worked, assembly language and all. But, I had to go to a library to get the books. The internet was still a DARPA experiment with a bunch of universities connected to it. Twelve year old me, living on the other side of the big pond, definitely didn't have access to that.


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## Spartrekus (Jun 21, 2018)

SirDice said:


> I think we need to take into account the different types of computer usages. Using a smartphone, tablet or game console is probably more the 'consuming' kind. While Arduino, Raspberry Pi, Lego Mindstorms and all fall more into a 'creative' kind. I often wished the latter was available when I was young and starting to take interest in things.
> 
> I might be a bit biased though, at around 6 or 7 I already knew I wanted to learn about electronics. And at that time chips started appearing in devices, those odd black rectangular shaped components really intrigued me. One thing led to another and before age 13 I had learned by myself how that C64 worked, assembly language and all. But, I had to go to a library to get the books. The internet was still a DARPA experiment back then.



Maybe at 7-8 years old (or earlier), it would be good to learn maths, because it will prepare and structure for later. Not only maths, but also just going outside and playing. Family, music, meeting mother nature. Balanced life is the unique preparation for later.


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## SirDice (Jun 21, 2018)

In the Netherlands "basic" school was age 6 to 12. Nowadays it's 4 to 12. In my time kindergarten (4 to 6) was still a thing. So that puts basic school from 1977 to 1983/84 for me. I had to learn basic math the hard way, it was quite literally old school. Lots of repetitions.


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## kpedersen (Jun 21, 2018)

I don't like the idea of tablets and things in a classroom. These locked down pieces of crud go against *everything* a learning environment stands for. Proprietary, secretive, controlling information has no place in a school.

I quite like the idea of a Raspberry Pi for hobby projects but again, I don't think it serves a purpose in a school. The kids get too distracted playing with the device itself that they don't learn any transferable skills.

A single computer with nothing but BASIC is probably the best bet. How about a ginormous TI-84 Plus calculator with a full keyboard and just Ti-Basic.

As they get older and want to learn more about hardware, I would suggest a bog standard PC with a decent AVR simulator so they can just select loads of different (virtual) hardware to try interacting with. I have yet to find a decent FOSS one yet however. Surprising since Arduino is using an Atmel AVR chip in its core :S.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jun 21, 2018)

Spartrekus said:


> What is your opinion about learning with electronic devices at early age (ELC, primary schools,... and higher up secondary)? UK implements early electronic medias, tablets,... computers



I can't comment directly to that.

After I walked 5 miles in the snow to school, in bare feet, you learned from these things called "books." If it was something really special they got out the overhead projector "electronic media" to cast an image through a transparent plastic sheet on a wall screen. Before "printers" there were "mimeographs" that printed out text in purple.

There was no such thing as computer classes, tablets, or even pocket calculators for that matter till I was in Jr. or Sr. High. I remember the controversy about whether or not student should be allowed to use them in class. Though I have used an abacus for fun, we were taught "multiplication tables" and to do math by rote memory or mental calculation.

On the other hand, I don't think people who grew up with computers realize the advantage they have in that area. You learned at an early age in school as part of everyday life. I enrolled in the School of Hard Knocks for that one, but those are the lessons I remember best.




Spartrekus said:


> Furthermore, there is a difference between active learning and passive learning. There is a difference between visual images and mental images. Mental images can be easily produced without any electronic devices, just by listening to speaker. Art of rhetoric and impact on open mind will be reduced by using electronic devices. What about concentration skills, while kids are focused on other things and challenges of electronic life?



English and science were my favorite subjects in school. The internet is a text based medium so it suits me extremely well. I have had chat bots with a minimum vocabulary of 1000 words I taught to speak English as you would a child by showing how words link together. I can read all day while listening to music and write a long paper with no loss of concentration. I joke about having used ports so much i've become a speed reader from watching screen after screen of text fly wildly by, but there is truth to that. I find myself taking in whole sections of a page in one glance rather than actually "reading" it and need to adjust accordingly as I go.

However, and that's usually what I build up to, it has had a terrible effect on my ability to sit down and read a book. I was a avid reader and writer, and when I read I want it to be reference material I can take something away from that will enrich me, but I need complete silence and to focus deeply on what I'm doing now to read a book. I ordered the OpenSolaris Bible, and while it's still sitting beside my .mp3 player laptop, I haven't made it much further than Ken Thompsons story except to look at certain pages. I'd rather get my hands on it and just do it, and how I did it to set up my boxen.

My handwriting, or "cursive", is now like chicken scratch and it pains me to write a letter, but I can wear the letters off a keyboard.



Spartrekus said:


> Nature, rest, self consideration, self perception of oneself, persons, communication, love, you & others. Loving, listening and highly respecting others and differences.



The internet has been a horrible influence in that area IMO.


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## PMc (Jun 22, 2018)

Spartrekus said:


> What is your opinion about learning with electronic devices at early age (ELC, primary schools,... and higher up secondary)? UK implements early electronic medias, tablets,... computers (of course no FreeBSD and no opensource have any place there, as you may know ). You may think about learning to write with a pen, influence on communication & respect of others,... fitness, ... and major learning steps.



If you teach men by machines, You make men become like machines. (Which is good if one wants to create a functional workforce and functional consumers.)
Even I my youth, when there were no computers yet, I would consider the learning schemes having too much bias on intellectual and rational matters. And way way more back, in the 16th century, the famous Theophrastus of Hohenheim, known as Paracelsus, made this statement:

"Zwei Lichte hat Gott den Menschen gegeben, aus denen die Menschen erkennen sollen, das Licht der Natur und das Licht der Gnade. Es ist aber eingerissen die Logica, dieselbig hat verblendet das Licht der Natur, und das Licht der Weisheit, und eingeführt eine fremde Doktrin, dieselbig hat beide Weisheit zwischen Stühl und Bänke niedergesetzt."
I may try to translate (but this is an inspired text and difficult to properly translate): _Two lights has God given to humans, so they shall realize: the light of nature, and the light of grace. But there has become a habit the Logica, which has endarkened the light of nature, and the light of wisdom, and introduced a foreign doctrine, which has locked both wisdom into classrooms._

From this viewpoint, computerized learning ist just a consequential step onwards in a tendency that is already ongoing for a long time.


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## Spartrekus (Jun 22, 2018)

PMc said:


> If you teach men by machines, You make men become like machines. (Which is good if one wants to create a functional workforce and functional consumers.)
> Even I my youth, when there were no computers yet, I would consider the learning schemes having too much bias on intellectual and rational matters. And way way more back, in the 16th century, the famous Theophrastus of Hohenheim, known as Paracelsus, made this statement:
> 
> "Zwei Lichte hat Gott den Menschen gegeben, aus denen die Menschen erkennen sollen, das Licht der Natur und das Licht der Gnade. Es ist aber eingerissen die Logica, dieselbig hat verblendet das Licht der Natur, und das Licht der Weisheit, und eingeführt eine fremde Doktrin, dieselbig hat beide Weisheit zwischen Stühl und Bänke niedergesetzt."
> ...



Reading your post, education and politics are also related by the way.

Apple gives tablets to kids, for a discount price. But Microsoft not, strange that MS does not do that (maybe not yet).


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## PMc (Jun 23, 2018)

Spartrekus said:


> Reading your post, education and politics are also related by the way.


Yes, and this is all only the surface, the visible part of it all.

Some people have become very rich during the years since WW2, and there is a saying that the rich tend to become richer and the poor become poorer, and the bigger part of the world's wealth is gathered among a rather small amount of people.
Now, one can perfectly understand that these people have a valid interest in the affairs staying that way, or even improving their situation - and they also have certain means to influence that. This is the point I am targeting with my above statement: an uniform kind of people that performs well as a workforce and as consumers can easily be managed. The great qualities of humans, their individuality, their diverse and unique creativity, and many more, are not needed for a functional economy. But a functional economy is needed to gather wealth.
Picture something along "Brave New Word".

The aspects of this are manyfold, and they are often not recognized as what they are. Computerized education is only a small part of it. Tendencies to establish an optimized, AI-managed medicine are another: these technologies are based on statistics: they disregard the fascinating self-healing abilities of humans, which are individual and creatively achieved. Or, another aspect: with many software-projects it has become a custom in the last years to introduce a so-called "code of conduct" (which contains some statement about anti-discrimination, anti-racism, anti-harrassment etc.etc). One could now think that this is a good thing, because it should strengthen diversity and respectful behaviour. But the actual aim is a different one: to make people replaceable and interchangeable, so they can easily be moved around as the requirements for profit may demand, and nobody may oppose such.


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## Spartrekus (Jun 23, 2018)

I like the term "the visible part of it all." There is this invisible world, business and affairs, which lies under.
Maybe Microsoft or machines will rule this planet, like in many futuristic books


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## ShelLuser (Jun 23, 2018)

I'm not a fan perse because there is a very dark shadow which most people are ignoring: becoming more and more depending on these gizmos. Heck, in Holland there are already dozens of children who can't even properly write anything without using a computer. Pen and paper? That doesn't work for them.

And that's seriously bad news I think because people get too depending on such absurdities.

There's more than just the digital world alone.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jun 23, 2018)

ShelLuser said:


> Heck, in Holland there are already dozens of children who can't even properly write anything without using a computer. Pen and paper? That doesn't work for them.



I've seen it happen to myself over the last 20 years. My 2007 Sony has very few keys with print still on them. Unless it's a check, notes, etc. I don't write much by hand,

Before that I did a lot of writing in my work, much of it official documentation that had to be legible. And I love to write, words bring me more joy than you can imagine, but computers have definitely brought a loss of finesse in my ability to do so by hand. 

My sister does substitute teacher work and said some of her students had trouble telling time on an analog clock.


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## Spartrekus (Jun 30, 2018)

Well, education is going to change.

Don't complain that education level is decreasing. Students can't write good already and properly. Learning to write starts at earliest age. Once teenagers then, handy rules, so there is not time for any writing.

Lack of concentration during math exercises is one result. Students may eventually learn maths with phone and tablets and get of course poor grades. Paper + pen is the only way to learn maths.

Have you ever learned playing tennis by watching it on youtube or TV ?




ShelLuser said:


> I'm not a fan perse because there is a very dark shadow which most people are ignoring: becoming more and more depending on these gizmos. Heck, in Holland there are already dozens of children who can't even properly write anything without using a computer. Pen and paper? That doesn't work for them.
> 
> And that's seriously bad news I think because people get too depending on such absurdities.
> 
> There's more than just the digital world alone.



In UK the education level may be decreasing because of that. I am sure that it might be same in Germany like in Holland. They like techs there.


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