# Is it me, or is sound really great on FreeBSD?



## poorandunlucky (Nov 23, 2017)

I don't know if it's me or not, but damn...  I feel like sound is so much better on FreeBSD than it was on Windows 10...  I don't know why, and I couldn't explain it, but it like sound is so much clearer, sharper, more... alive...

The main thing that allows me to think it's not just my imagination is that my subwoofer and speakers don't feel like they're working independently anymore... often, especially on some of my YouTube subscriptions, the sound between the two was definitely split, and kind of hard to understand, and definitely unpleasant, but I'd gotten used to it...  Now that problem's gone on all channels...  I haven't really listened to any music files yet - I'm still settling in - but I really think sound is awesome on FreeBSD...

I don't really want to think about what was happening before because it makes me sad, but I definitely think sound is vastly superior on FreeBSD...  Hell, I was even disappointed at my speakers that are kind of maybe not audiophile quality but that are supposed to be superior to say Logitech speakers without being M-Audio or KRK (they're Edifier Prisma I think... the ones with the haloed remote and pyramid subwoofer), but now I'm very happy with my speakers, and I can say that they are, in fact, quite superior to Logitech speakers...

Quite disappointed at Winderps, there... quite...  ,_,

Can reality be fun, sometimes?

Edit: Oh yeah, the channel I was talking about is TopTenz and Today I Found Out (same host), and my favorite channel is Dark5 (which I think some of you guys might like)  ^_^


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## PacketMan (Nov 23, 2017)

Its you.  

But then again, too much Iron Maiden has done the job on my ears.  I have a listened to a $10,000 system and I don't hear the difference.


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## Deleted member 45312 (Nov 23, 2017)

You're right. I tried to disable sound correction into Windows 10 but the sound quality is bad. I am using the same headphones for the two OS and sound on FreeBSD is far better.


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## poorandunlucky (Nov 23, 2017)

PacketMan said:


> Its you.
> 
> But then again, too much Iron Maiden has done the job on my ears.  I have a listened to a $10,000 system and I don't hear the difference.



I've listened to 100,000$ systems and they sounded worse than my desktop speakers... they were installed in stadiums, though...  I'm not sure dollar amount on its own is a good metric of sound quality  : P


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## rigoletto@ (Nov 23, 2017)

dlegrand said:


> You're right. I tried to disable sound correction into Windows 10 but the sound quality is bad. I am using the same headphones for the two OS and sound on FreeBSD is far better.



The Windows audio stack is the worse in the market. You can get good results using ASIO + Foobar, or really good ones using something commercial (and expensive) like Merging Pyramix with its Masscore.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Nov 23, 2017)

I use my Thinkpad X61 as the music source for my vintage stereo using multimedia/xmms to play my digital music library.


 

I have it sitting on a table by my recliner and either use some lightweight headphones or run it through the stereo, but that's its main purpose.


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## Beastie (Nov 23, 2017)

PacketMan said:


> Iron Maiden





Trihexagonal said:


> View attachment 4132


You have excellent musical taste.



PacketMan said:


> too much Iron Maiden


No such a thing


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## metsuke (Nov 23, 2017)

I had a similar experience many years ago switching from Linux (ALSA) to FreeBSD.  OSS sounded so vastly better that it is unconscionable for me to listen to music on Linux.


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## poorandunlucky (Nov 24, 2017)

lebarondemerde said:


> The Windows audio stack is the worse in the market. You can get good results using ASIO + Foobar, or really good ones using something commercial (and expensive) like Merging Pyramix with its Masscore.



You'd imagine the inverse, but it's quite the contrary...



metsuke said:


> I had a similar experience many years ago switching from Linux (ALSA) to FreeBSD.  OSS sounded so vastly better that it is unconscionable for me to listen to music on Linux.



I know, right?  It's insane how good the sound is...


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## gfx (Nov 25, 2017)

Indeed, on my end the audio system on FreeBSD is just simpler and thus better than it was on any Linux distro i have tried. I could never get the hang of how audio works on a Linux system thanks to its complexity (as can be seen in the picture below).


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## Sensucht94 (Nov 25, 2017)

Trihexagonal said:


> I use my Thinkpad X61 as the music source for my vintage stereo using multimedia/xmms to play my digital music library.
> 
> View attachment 4132
> 
> I have it sitting on a table by my recliner and either use some lightweight headphones or run it through the stereo, but that's its main purpose.



A Blue Öyster Cult  fan, glad to hear that. That was a great album, especially _Stairway to the Stars_


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## Deleted member 30996 (Nov 26, 2017)

I saw them doing their Secret Treaties tour. 

I'm upgrading my X61 from a 100GB to a 250GB HDD right now.


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## ds6 (Dec 1, 2017)

I would attribute the differences to the defaults on Windows audio stack vs FreeBSD, and more in general how easy it is to configure either.

Windows, by default, mixes everything down to usually 44100Hz or 48000Hz, and uses particularly disgusting conversion that muddies most sound. You can't get really clear, crisp sound without using bit-perfect output (eg. via ASIO or WASAPI), and there is no way to configure it otherwise.

FreeBSD, however and as usual, uses rather sane defaults. The audio drivers seem to allow greater control over sound signal as well, eg. `hw.snd.vpc_0db` has a wonderful effect on output; no similar setting even exists on Windows despite how simplistic it is.

You don't even need to enable bit-perfect processing to get acceptable to good audio quality, as the rate conversion (`feeder`) settings offers enough granularity and precision as you want it to.
You should read sound(4)() to see what kind of options are available. Don't forget to set `dev.pcm.X.play.vchanrate` and use sinc interpolation with `hw.snd.feeder_rate_quality` if you don't use bit-perfect output. If you DO use bit-perfect output, audio/libsoxr is my resampler of choice and really beefs up any sound you throw at it.


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## aragats (Dec 1, 2017)

I uploaded a wav file, don't remember its origin, it's a music sample recorded using just 4 LSB.
It's recommended to use for checking the quality of an audio system. I checked with a couple of computers and phones, but cannot hear it.
In my T430 I can hear it only with mplayer's audio filter increasing volume by 30dB (`mplayer -af volume=30 4lsb.wav`, not sure whether it's really 30dB).


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## ds6 (Dec 8, 2017)

_When I get old and losing my hair, many years from now..._

With VPCs and mixing enabled (no bit-perfect), I can hear it fairly clearly using `ffplay` with `vpc_0db` set to 1, I can barely hear it at 20, and I keep it on 40-45 for normal usage for this soundcard.
With the speakers I can just barely hear it at 1, but these x220t speakers are only slightly better than most modern laptop speakers...
With my USB DAC I can hear it at max volume at 45.
If I enable bit-perfect output, I hear with the same settings `vpc_0db` I forgot has no effect when VPC is disabled, but even so it does has a little less static.

I tried playing this on my Windows 7 box, and I couldn't hear it at all through various softwares, even with amplification. With ASIO output in foobar2000 I could just barely hear it at max volume with my DAC.


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## whyur (Sep 22, 2019)

I can clearly hear the difference on a T-420, and I am not an audiophile nor am I a computer/soft expert by any means. Not only it is better via an external DAC, but it is good enough via it's on-board chip: clearly an obvious superiority of the chip driver soft aside from the rest of them variables. The same hardware cries for an external DAC on Windows 7 or Linux. I have also tried KX Studio and AP Linux and I  keep coming back to FreeBSD. 
Classical music mostly with a modest hardware on the end side of it: either Sennheiser 600 or Vandersteen 2Ci speakers with a vintage Marantz in between.
Thank you very much, developers


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## rsronin (Sep 22, 2019)

I was drawn to FreeBSD because of OSS.


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## Alain De Vos (Sep 22, 2019)

Has anyone experiences with using jack in freebsd ?.  Should i compile audio ports with option resampling on or off ?


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## zirias@ (Sep 22, 2019)

When doing some C64 SID music, I observed for quite some time it sounds much better in VICE 3.3 on FreeBSD 12 than it does in VICE 3.3 on Windows 10. But then, I use them on different machines, so I assumed it might be the machines themselves or maybe differences in the VICE ports. It never occured to me that the OS might actually have an influence itself 

What I can say for sure is: sound on FreeBSD is much better than on Linux, just for technical aspects. A clean OSS interface is much nicer than that ALSA and pulseaudio hell ...


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## dieselriot (Sep 24, 2019)

I also favor OSS. I use my FreeBSD box for running DAWs, mostly FL Studio. The Included FL ASIO audio plugin works amazingly well, no need for JACK. By increasing the buffer size a bit I can run high-end plugins on an underpowered laptop at ~60% CPU usage. I'm pretty sure they choked a lot in Linux.

Also, there's native support for equalization, whereas in other systems you have to do a lot of shit to get it working proper. The bass and treble controls even show up on audio/wmsmixer with the correct icons:







And then there's the before mentioned sysctl tweak `hw.snd.vpc_0db`, which acts pretty much like a built-in pre-amp.

It's because of things like these or moused() that I haven't booted into my Linux partition in months.


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## sand_man (Sep 24, 2019)

dieselriot said:


> I also favor OSS. I use my FreeBSD box for running DAWs, mostly FL Studio. The Included FL ASIO audio plugin works amazingly well, no need for JACK. By increasing the buffer size a bit I can run high-end plugins on an underpowered laptop at ~60% CPU usage. I'm pretty sure they choked a lot in Linux.


Are you running the Linux version of FL Studio in FreeBSD?


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## dieselriot (Sep 24, 2019)

sand_man No, I'm running the windoze version through Wine. But it works so well that it feels like I'm running a native FreeBSD application. The interface is, AFAIC, 100% delayless. Even like 95% of the VST plugins I've tested work.


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## recluce (Sep 24, 2019)

I moved a HTPC from Ubuntu to FreeBSD, due to never-ending issues with Pulse Audio. AC-3 / DTS Passthrough broke with every other update and there were enormous audio lags on a low-powered NUC. The issues went so far that some audio tracks showed wow (low-speed flutter) like bad quality cassette players of ages past - likely due to the Linux kernel experiencing various levels of lag and trying to "catch up" if the lag became to big.

With FreeBSD, audio simply worked out of the box, without any of the issues above. Using OSS and SNDIO, but no Pulse.


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## tedbell (Sep 24, 2019)

This is why I switched to FreeBSD in the first place. Native OSS and "bitperfect" mode. My vinyl rips sound great!


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## sidetone (Sep 24, 2019)

tedbell said:


> This is why I switched to FreeBSD in the first place. Native OSS and "bitperfect" mode. My vinyl rips sound great!


Rip your vinyl records in flac24 and play that on OSS, not sndio. That lossless form will play a fuller spectrum and higher bitrate of sound from the computer than CD quality. It requires a 24 bit capable sound card/processor to hear the benefits of those sound files. Maybe you have done this already. Flac16 is CD quality. The last time I looked, sndio didn't have 24 bit sound on FreeBSD.


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## tedbell (Sep 24, 2019)

sidetone said:


> Rip your vinyl records in flac24 and play that on OSS, not sndio. That lossless form will play a fuller spectrum and higher bitrate of sound from the computer than CD quality. It requires a 24 bit capable sound card/processor to hear the benefits of those sound files. Maybe you have done this already. Flac16 is CD quality. The last time I looked, sndio didn't have 24 bit sound on FreeBSD.


I know. LOL I have been ripping vinyl for about 15 years. 
I usually rip them in Audacity with 32-bit FP and then convert to flac 24/48. I don't use sndio at all. I can't explain it but OSS sounds better to my ears than ALSA and DirectSound on Windows.


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## userxbw (Sep 24, 2019)

I just listen to sound on my head phones and yes sometimes I cannot get it to turn up loud enough, that little extra boost that pulseaudio gets. I know too that some of it has to do with recording level that the movie or music was recourded at plays into it, but still pulseaudio seems to give it the push it needs. pulseaudio was developed for Linux/GNU so ... I live with what comes with FreeBSD.


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## PMc (Sep 24, 2019)

dieselriot said:


> I also favor OSS. I use my FreeBSD box for running DAWs,



Oha! So there is professional use on FreeBSD! 

From scanning thru forums of professional people, it appeared to me they mostly use Windows and OSX, as that's what one gets software for, and then there is some Linux in the more "nerdy" section. So, one wouldn't even want to ask if anybody knows FreeBSD...

I for my part am just curious what the sound stuff in the computer can do - up to now I only used it to get youtube etc. make some sound on the speakers, disregarding the details, while I considered HiFi etc. as an entirely different (and analog) matter (as it formerly was). I am not practically involved in professional audio, but -many years ago- we used to organize small music festivals, so I should still know enough about the professional aera to somehow understand the topics (and one can learn a lot from these people).

Pondering about getting myself a whole nice new HiFi system, it appears to be possible to do the things one formerly did with a little mixer and an open-reel tape-recorder, to do these now entirely within the computer - given the proper software and maybe some hardware with appropriate connectors.



> Also, there's native support for equalization, whereas in other systems you have to do a lot of shit to get it working proper. The bass and treble controls even show up on audio/wmsmixer with the correct icons:



These appear to be presented by the audio device driver and appear here, from where any graphical frontend can access them:

```
$ /usr/sbin/mixer
Mixer bass     is currently set to  55:55
Mixer treble   is currently set to  55:55
```



> And then there's the before mentioned sysctl tweak `hw.snd.vpc_0db`, which acts pretty much like a built-in pre-amp.



Yeah, but how do we get these into some frontend where we could adjust it? And how would it be possible to e.g. route some output to different/multiple soundcards? Except by adjusting the sysctl's and then restarting the software?


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## shkhln (Sep 24, 2019)

PMc said:


> And how would it be possible to e.g. route some output to different/multiple soundcards? Except by adjusting the sysctl's and then restarting the software?



https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/switching-dsp-devices-on-the-fly.69773/#post-419290


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## dieselriot (Sep 24, 2019)

PMc I don't really consider myself to be a professional, but I get your point. I guess the reason I use FreeBSD is because I'm a jack of all trades, so I'm into computers as well as audio and electronics and lots of other stuff. What I mean is, I know a professional musical producer, and although he's fiddled with *nix, he's usually too busy with audio stuff all the time to setup a comfortable environment or fix whatever breaks; plus it's harder to get support from software developers when you're not using the platform their product was designed for. So, as you've pointed out, most of these people just use OSX instead.




PMc said:


> Yeah, but how do we get these into some frontend where we could adjust it? And how would it be possible to e.g. route some output to different/multiple soundcards? Except by adjusting the sysctl's and then restarting the software?



I have this ugly hack for adjusting `hw.snd.vpc_0db`. I use something similar to adjust the screen backlight.

~/.xbindkeysrc

```
"doas sysctl hw.snd.vpc_0db=50"
  Control+Mod4 + 1

"doas sysctl hw.snd.vpc_0db=45"
  Control+Mod4 + 2

"doas sysctl hw.snd.vpc_0db=40"
  Control+Mod4 + 3

... [omitted] ...

"doas sysctl hw.snd.vpc_0db=5"
  Control+Mod4 + 0
```


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## oops (Sep 24, 2019)

hw.snd.vpc_0db controls default per-application volume. Why not adjust volume individually?
	
	



```
$ sysctl hw.snd.verbose=2
$ mkdir -p ~/bin
$ fetch -o ~/bin/ https://people.freebsd.org/~ariff/utils/appsmixer
$ chmod +x ~/bin/appsmixer
$ appsmixer
wine (dsp0.vp0):
        Mixer pcm      is currently set to  45:45
mpv (dsp0.vp1):
        Mixer pcm      is currently set to  45:45
firefox (dsp0.vp2):
        Mixer pcm      is currently set to  45:45
$ appsmixer firefox 100
firefox (dsp0.vp0):
        Setting the mixer pcm from 45:45 to 100:100.
```


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## PMc (Sep 25, 2019)

dieselriot said:


> I have this ugly hack for adjusting `hw.snd.vpc_0db`. I use something similar to adjust the screen backlight.



Ok, thats cool. 
But, if I understood this scheme correctly, dynamically changing that value is not the intended use-case - the value appears to be a "construction parameter", i.e. the technical point on the fader (0..100) where 0db should be.

The actual fader does appear with (something like) `xmmix -dev /dev/dsp0.vpN`. This creates a window with a stereo volume fader, possibly for each of the respective virtual inputs, before bringing them together. And in my understanding, then, the hw.snd.vpc_0db parameter should just deisgnate the preset 0db point _for all of these_.
The ugly thing there is that one needs a separate instance of the graphical mixer program for each of them. The audio/dsbmixer port mentions that they could be brought into a single, tabbed application, but then, that port seems neither bugfree nor complete. 

oops : That's an approach.  Thanks!


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## joplass (Oct 7, 2019)

dieselriot said:


> I also favor OSS. I use my FreeBSD box for running DAWs, mostly FL Studio. The Included FL ASIO audio plugin works amazingly well, no need for JACK. By increasing the buffer size a bit I can run high-end plugins on an underpowered laptop at ~60% CPU usage. I'm pretty sure they choked a lot in Linux.
> 
> Also, there's native support for equalization, whereas in other systems you have to do a lot of shit to get it working proper. The bass and treble controls even show up on audio/wmsmixer with the correct icons:
> 
> ...


I don't get bass and treble.  Is there something I am missing?


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## PMc (Oct 7, 2019)

joplass said:


> I don't get bass and treble.  Is there something I am missing?



Maybe. I have this in /boot/device.hints
`hint.pcm.0.eq="1"
hint.pcm.1.eq="1"`


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## joplass (Oct 8, 2019)

PMc, I got more than what I bargained for.  Thanks for that.


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## Deleted member 67862 (Dec 2, 2021)

poorandunlucky said:


> I don't know if it's me or not, but damn... I feel like sound is so much better on FreeBSD than it was on Windows 10...



Better than Linux too! I can actually listen to my music without popping or any of that other CRAP.. 

OSS is an unbeatable sound system, swapping from it for the mess that ALSA is was one of the worst decisions the Linux devs ever made.


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## neel (Dec 2, 2021)

In terms of sound quality, FreeBSD isn't nearly as good as Windows and Linux IMHO on a 14" HP Spectre.

But in terms of out-of-the-box support audio, FreeBSD beats even Windows 11 on the 14" TigerLake Spectre. I also previously owned the 13" TigerLake which was a different story however.

Getting an audio driver on Windows 11 was hard, even harder when I installed Windows 11 "Enterprise" instead of "Home" on a my Spectre in dual-boot meant I couldn't automatically download audio drivers. Mainstream Linux distros need the sof-firmware package, but not FreeBSD.

Note: I work at Microsoft (not on Windows), but the notes to support TigerLake probably went to the wrong person at MSFT, so FreeBSD supports hardware the Windows 11 ISO lacks .

Elementary OS is probably the best Linux I tested in terms of audio on my machine, but EOS despite is dated package-wise, and I don't want something with old packages (unless I am inside a VM or on a old PC).

Going back, Windows 11 doesn't support the TigerLake NVMe or touchpad out of the box but FreeBSD 13.0 from 6 months earlier does. Microsoft can manage to kick out KabyLake and 1st Gen Ryzen and non-TPM2/UEFI PCs on Windows 11 but can't figure out how to support TigerLake on the Windows 11 ISO.

OpenBSD is great in many regards, even Wi-Fi is supported but TigerLake NVMe may not work on all PCs, like Dell and HP won't work with OBSD, but Lenovo and Asus will after disabling "VMD".


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