# Wireless GUI: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?



## robspop (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm fairly new to FreeBSD and absolutely new to this particular forum so apologies if this is something that comes up all the time.

The short story: I think FreeBSD needs some way of making mobile networking easier.

The long story: I've worked in computing in Universities for about 30 years. I started with BSD running on a PDP/11, then SunOS, then Solaris. I'm probably unusual in never having owned and used either a Windows PC or a Mac. For many years I had various Sun machines at home. When I got my first laptop I ran Linux on it for a while and then switched to Solaris and eventually OpenSolaris. My first laptop was used to enable me to work on long train journeys: it had no mobile network connectivity and I would move stuff to and from it via wired networks at home and at work. Then mobile broadband came along: I was not an early user because it was expensive but I did eventually sign up and, with a bit of struggle, got OpenSolaris to work with it.  

Since then, of course, Solaris has pretty much died for users like me, and OpenSolaris/Indiana really isn't an option, so a few years ago I decided that I was going to have to give up Solaris and find something else. My first alternative was Debian, but I found the whole experience frustrating in many ways, and about 2 years ago I switched to FreeBSD. There is a lot to like about FreeBSD for a traditional Unix user and I am surprised in many ways that it is not more popular than it is, though I suppose it passed under my radar for a long while too.

The reason for this rather long introduction is to make the point that, though I'm not a developer and have never been a professional sysadmin, I am a much more than averagely-competent user. I've set up and run a small Solaris cluster and was getting Linux and Solaris running on laptop machines at a time when that was really unusual.

What everyone wants now, myself included, is internet connectivity "on the go" and in this area, I think Linux wins over FreeBSD by a mile. I have mobile broadband running on my laptop (under FreeBSD) but it was a bit of a struggle, I needed help from these forums and spent a fair bit of time tinkering with the PPP configuration file.  Similarly, I have WiFi working, again after tinkering with wpa_supplicant.  I have used wifimgr and it is ok, but I'm often driven to editing wpa_supplicant.conf by hand and running ifconfig.

Linux has a tool called, I think, NetworkManager and a little control icon called nm-applet and it is incredibly easy to use.  You can set up a new connection in seconds for wired, wireless or mobile, and it manages them all seamlessly.  I've found a couple of threads on these forums mentioning nm-applet, but neither it nor an equivalent seems to be available in FreeBSD.

As I said at the outset, I am new here, I don't mean to cause any offence, and these are just "thoughts" for which the Off-Topic forum seems the right place. I am still learning FreeBSD and I want to continue to do so and to use it for the foreseeable future, but it seems to me that its future must include reasonable compatibility with laptops (I'm not suggesting tablets or phones), and that in turn means reasonably straightforward mobile internet.


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## kpedersen (Jan 11, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

We have wpa_supplicant for WPA and WEP and we have ifconfig for OPEN and WEP.

They both work and we seem to have all we need. I usually knock together a few scripts to make the process easier to change network.

If you are looking for a GUI network manager, I cant help you since I despise both GNOME 3 and KDE 4 so as far as I am concerned, Linux doesn't have any decent GUI network managers either.

wicd works better as a command-line tool when on Linux too


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## kpa (Jan 11, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

Lack of such network manager app is simply down to the lack of enthusiasm to develop one *). The network manager from Linux is absolutely not portable to FreeBSD because it relies on Linux specific APIs that are not standardised, not even between different Linux distros (!!!). All the other UNIX-like operating systems than Linux were historically geared towards servers rather than workstations/laptops and for example with FreeBSD the laptop users who would like to have such network manager are still a small minority among FreeBSD users if you count in number of machines that have FreeBSD installed.

*) FreeBSD is developed very much by its users nowadays so this should also tell what kind of use the current crop of FreeBSD developers are using the OS for.


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## hitest (Jan 11, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> If you are looking for a GUI network manager, I cant help you since I despise both GNOME 3 and KDE 4 so as far as I am concerned, Linux doesn't have any decent GUI network managers either.
> 
> wicd works better as a command-line tool when on Linux too



Wicd has the advantage in that it is not tied to KDE or GNOME.  Unfortunately I don't think there is a wicd port yet.


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## robspop (Jan 11, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

As I said, just a thought, but:



> We have wpa_supplicant ... and we have ifconfig



I think you will find that I did say I use those, but I am pointing out that for most users they do not simplify roaming.



> I despise both GNOME 3 and KDE 4



Did I mention either of those?  In fact I use a completely customised fvwm and can run nm-applet in a tray activated by a keyboard shortcut.  I don't like GNOME or KDE either.

But there is nothing inherently wrong with simple and/or graphical.  I used to use a dumb terminal before X came along, but I don't now, even though I make extensive use of xterms. Do you not use a window system at all?


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## kpedersen (Jan 11, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> Linux has a tool called, I think, NetworkManager.



Assuming you meant the GUI application called NetworkManager rather than the service (also called NetworkManager), Linux doesn't have that GUI tool. Gnome does. Unfortunately much of Gnome is less than portable. And I (and many others) dislike GNOME and all the dependencies it drags in anyway. (https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/NetworkManager). So would not really be a valid option for a FreeBSD GUI WiFi manager.

As for using a window manager. The only real option on Linux for a lightweight GUI WiFi manager is wicd (unless you like dragging in GNOME/KDE dependencies and getting the network manager to work separately from the rest of the DE). So Linux doesn't really have FreeBSD beat by much when it comes to GUI WiFi to be honest. Especially when net-mgmt/wifimgr wouldn't need much tweaking to provide the functionality you would appreciate from (I am guessing) wicd.

But like I said, with a few simple scripts, the tools provided by FreeBSD are very usable for a roaming system. Especially for users like me who only use a window manager with no system tray (rendering things like nm-applet useless).

Edit: wpa_supplicant does come with a GUI counterpart (using Qt) called wpa_gui. It is fairly simplistic but is another option.


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## robspop (Jan 11, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



> with FreeBSD the laptop users are still a small minority



I'm sure you're right, but there seems to be a general tide that has flowed from servers with dumb(ish) terminals to workstations with network file servers to standalone machines to laptops. I work at a large university that has thousands of students, the vast majority of whom now own laptops (there is actually a move to stop providing computer labs and substitute some sort of laptop support scheme).

I am also not suggesting attempting to port either NetworkManager or its applet to FreeBSD. I just give it as an example of a tool that I still think has excellent functionality.

I absolutely agree with comments about bloated desktops and huge dependency requirements: as I said, I use fvwm and have a completely blank desktop that I love. I have used FreeBSD on a laptop for a couple of years now. I have not tried wpa_gui but I have used wifimgr, ifconfig. etc, and I agree that they do the job. Maybe the typical FreeBSD user will always be happy with those tools. I wonder though if there wouldn't be a potentially larger pool of users if it was easier to be one in a mobile world.


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## sossego (Jan 11, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

The setup for wicd is python based. I have not as-of-yet installed it but the configuration only took a few minutes.
And it is not working.


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## ManaHime (Jan 12, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

If you are a desktop user on a laptop and want _GUI_ tools I personally think you should take a look at PC-BSD*.*


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## jrm@ (Jan 12, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

It's not a GUI, but I use this little script when I don't feel like editing /etc/wap_supplicant.conf.  However, it's really not that much easier than editing a line in /etc/rc.conf and doing `sudo service netif restart`.


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## kpedersen (Jan 12, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				D4rkSilver said:
			
		

> If you are a desktop user on a laptop and want gui tools I personally think you should take a look at PC-BSD



I have heard PC-BSD does come with a decent GUI WiFi manager but if you want to keep with FreeBSD and a simple X11 window manager, you might see if you can use the WiFi manager separately (perhaps it is in the ports collection somewhere?).


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## zspider (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> robspop said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I remember trying to use wicd back on Arch Linux years ago, never worked. Network manager was also pretty bad, flaked alot. Honestly for most things I found it easier just to type the commands to do the wireless.


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## robspop (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

I think I did not express myself very well in my original post.

To be a bit more clear perhaps: I like FreeBSD a lot.  I think it has many virtues and that for people who want to run a Unix(-like) box it is now the best option.  It seems to me to have many advantages over Linux.

However, while I get lots of requests for help with Linux from people of all sorts, I have never had one from anyone about any BSD.  I work in a University, in a Department of Computing, and many of my colleagues use Linux, but most seem to regard FreeBSD as some sort of "step too far", even though many were disappointed when Solaris was dropped.  Lots of students have laptops running various Linuxes, and quite a few have Macbooks as that gives them a working command line and access to standard Unix utilities, but I have never met one running any BSD (except the Mac users of course   ).

I wonder why this is, and one of the answers I have found is that it is relatively difficult to set up laptops, and laptops are what people are increasingly using.

The main issues with laptops appear to be:

hardware not supported
suspend/resume not working
wifi not working

I don't think there is much that can be done about the first two of these, they are a problem for all non-Windows operating systems, and users seem to be willing to make some compromises in this area.

The last one, though, possibly could be tackled, and that was the point of my post.  Personally, I do have both wifi and mobile broadband working on my laptop.  I use wifimgr with the latter and have no problem, though I did set up the original wpa_supplicant by hand and still occasionally use ifconfig if I need to.  Setting up mobile broadband was a serious chore though, and even now it doesn't handle a patchy signal very well (on a train, for example).

To summarise, I am not asking for help to get wifi working; I am suggesting that if it was easier, then maybe FreeBSD would have a potentially bigger pool of users.


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## Jurik (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

I'm an occasional lurker on this forums, and was doing fine like this for months, but this topic enraged me enough to finally register.
This topic perfectly demonstrates exactly what is wrong with FreeBSD. So much stereotypical nonsense and backward, unprogressive thinking really shows out here.

The Original Poster made *perfectly* clear, concise and valid point in excellent manner. Your replies, dear FreeBSD community, are insubstantial.

Lets section them:



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> They both work and we seem to have all we need.


What does it mean that they work? They successfully fulfill all network connectivity needs which could potential user need? According to OP-s post FAR FROM IT - so, no, they don't really just 'work'. They are PITA for anything except most basic config. And they suck for that too.



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> Linux doesn't have any decent GUI network managers either.


It has 2 excellent GUI managers. Wicd and NetworkManager. Both are mentioned. And used by millions. And work great.



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> wicd works better as a command-line tool when on Linux too


I disagree.



			
				kpa said:
			
		

> Lack of such network manager app is simply down to the lack of enthusiasm to develop one *).


Exactly. And that's the reason why FreeBSD, despite being developed for so many years, stays and cements its place in its little obscure, niche usage.



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> Assuming you meant the GUI application called NetworkManager rather than the service (also called NetworkManager), Linux doesn't have that GUI tool. Gnome does. Unfortunately much of Gnome is less than portable. And I (and many others) dislike GNOME and all the dependencies it drags in anyway. (https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/NetworkManager). So would not really be a valid option for a FreeBSD GUI WiFi manager.


I strongly disagree. NetworkManager's only GNOME dependency is ~400 kb libsoup library. And the GTK toolkit is not actually a GNOME product, they just used and adopted it for their own needs. But toolkit in itself is DE agnostic. As is the case for qt - KDE. For example, Slackware has NetworkManager in its base and they ditched whole Gnome few years ago. 

Anyway, all that doesn't matter because, as @kpa rightly noted, NM is designed to talk to Linux interfaces, thus porting is not really simple, if possible at all, and the FreeBSD project would be much better off by creating its own tool from scratch, which surely couldn't be too difficult since its great backend is praised repeatedly through this thread. Right?  

So dear OP, since I believe you deserve a honest answer, here you will get it from me:
There is no wireless GUI in FreeBSD because devs don't want to code any GUI frontend. There are mix of reasons for that. Also, this highly prevalent mindset of worshiping command line and hating on GUI which is widespread around here doesn't help either. But that is what defines FreeBSD, so you should probably accept it, or move on. They are too much scared of becoming too similar to that popular guy at the party, which gets all the attention, handsome cousin Linux. So they are trying to hold onto some old principles, which are not all that bad in themselves, have their own advantages in simplicity I will give them that, but are not really made for convenience to the end-user, nor they were conceived with modern use-case in mind. And it caters more to that odd type of people which take pride in how they did something the hardest way possible, strongly defending it as the only true way...

Cheers


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## kpa (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

You seem to be one of those who think that there's some central committee sitting somewhere that decides what goes in to FreeBSD and what doesn't. That's as far as from the truth as it can be. As I noted above (the part that you conviniently ignored) FreeBSD developers (especially the teams like the X11 and the Gnome teams) are largely individual enthusiast users of FreeBSD who are also capable programmers. They have their own interests and won't take any crap from anyone about what their interests should be because they just know better and don't have time to dabble in what they consider non-essential for their own work. If you want something to be developed either do it yourself or look into motivating someone with the right skills to do the job. If you want to convey a message to those (in your view) incompetent developers, go talk to them on the mailing lists, they are all ears for suggestions. I'd however use a rather different tone than the one you used here.


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## nanotek (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*

@Jurik, while you have some valid points, your argument loses preponderance because of how you present it. This thread certainly exhibits the propensity for FreeBSD users to suffer from either poor comprehension or _fanboyitis_ causing blind bias, most likely a little bit of both -- but show me one community not suffering either of these conditions.


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## nanotek (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> I'm fairly new to FreeBSD...



Me too.



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> The short story: I think FreeBSD needs some way of making mobile networking easier.



Me too.



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> The long story: I've worked in computing in Universities for about 30 years. I started with BSD running on a PDP/11, then SunOS, then Solaris. I'm probably unusual in never having owned and used either a Windows PC or a Mac. For many years I had various Sun machines at home. When I got my first laptop I ran Linux on it for a while and then switched to Solaris and eventually OpenSolaris. My first laptop was used to enable me to work on long train journeys: it had no mobile network connectivity and I would move stuff to and from it via wired networks at home and at work. Then mobile broadband came along: I was not an early user because it was expensive but I did eventually sign up and, with a bit of struggle, got OpenSolaris to work with it.
> 
> Since then, of course, Solaris has pretty much died for users like me, and OpenSolaris/Indiana really isn't an option, so a few years ago I decided that I was going to have to give up Solaris and find something else. My first alternative was Debian, but I found the whole experience frustrating in many ways, and about 2 years ago I switched to FreeBSD. There is a lot to like about FreeBSD for a traditional Unix user and I am surprised in many ways that it is not more popular than it is, though I suppose it passed under my radar for a long while too.



Thanks for sharing; I enjoyed the read.



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> The reason for this rather long introduction is to make the point that, though I'm not a developer and have never been a professional sysadmin, I am a much more than averagely-competent user. I've set up and run a small Solaris cluster and was getting Linux and Solaris running on laptop machines at a time when that was really unusual.
> 
> What everyone wants now, myself included, is internet connectivity "on the go" and in this area, I think Linux wins over FreeBSD by a mile. I have mobile broadband running on my laptop (under FreeBSD) but it was a bit of a struggle, I needed help from these forums and spent a fair bit of time tinkering with the PPP configuration file.  Similarly, I have WiFi working, again after tinkering with wpa_supplicant.  I have used wifimgr and it is ok, but I'm often driven to editing wpa_supplicant.conf by hand and running ifconfig.



I don't have near as much experience as you in UNIX or UNIX-like systems, although I have spent a lot more time with various Linusi (OpenSUSE and Gentoo) than FreeBSD, and I have to say that I share your opinion.



> Linux has a tool called, I think, NetworkManager and a little control icon called nm-applet and it is incredibly easy to use.  You can set up a new connection in seconds for wired, wireless or mobile, and it manages them all seamlessly.  I've found a couple of threads on these forums mentioning nm-applet, but neither it nor an equivalent seems to be available in FreeBSD.
> 
> As I said at the outset, I am new here, I don't mean to cause any offence, and these are just "thoughts" for which the Off-Topic forum seems the right place. I am still learning FreeBSD and I want to continue to do so and to use it for the foreseeable future, but it seems to me that its future must include reasonable compatibility with laptops (I'm not suggesting tablets or phones), and that in turn means reasonably straightforward mobile internet.



I was compelled to post because I just installed 10.0-RELEASE onto an old laptop I picked up today and the process to configure WiFi, while only taking 5 minutes, was a farce; at least when acknowledging the fact that it's 2014 and not 1995 it was. I had to edit 3 files and reboot the system twice to get wireless conectivity; this should either be a one-line command or, if using a DE, click-click-click procedure. It's relative; I know 5 minutes is insignificant and I'm a novice FreeBSD user, but such a procedure is prehistoric in today's terms and really should be updated from its antiquated state to something resembling 21st century technology.


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## srobert (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> I have heard PC-BSD does come with a decent GUI WiFi manager but if you want to keep with FreeBSD and a simple X11 window manager, you might see if you can use the WiFi manager separately (perhaps it is in the ports collection somewhere?).



net/pcbsd-netmanager was in the ports tree. Perhaps it still is. I tried it a long time ago but could not get it to work under FreeBSD. Also, it's dependencies include much of KDE.


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## roddierod (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				nanotek said:
			
		

> I was compelled to post because I just installed 10.0-RELEASE onto an old laptop I picked up today and the process to configure WiFi, while only taking 5 minutes, was a farce; at least when acknowledging the fact that it's 2014 and not 1995 it was. I had to edit 3 files and reboot the system twice to get wireless conectivity; this should either be a one-line command or, if using a DE, click-click-click procedure. It's relative; I know 5 minutes is insignificant and I'm a novice FreeBSD user, but such a procedure is prehistoric in today's terms and really should be updated from its antiquated state to something resembling 21st century technology.



This compelled me to post.  I'm not a laptop user, I really dislike them. I don't want "on the go networking", that everyone else appears to want and I've been using FreeBSD as a desktop since 3.3. 

With all that being said:
I install FreeBSD 10.0 Release on a Core2Duo Sony Vaio laptop that I borrowed from work last weekend just to play with the new release.  During the install I chose the wireless network name and entered the network password and that was it. I didn't have to edit any files.

Now I did not play with switching networks or anything like that so maybe that is more complicated, although I suspect it has more to do with the wireless device of the laptop.

What does the installer use to configure wireless networks?  And could this be adapted into something the average user can use?

And finally, I be giving this some thought since the beginning of this thread, but I would volunteer to work on a set of FreeBSD specific "user friendly" GUI tools (given that they are written in Python for now because my C is rusty) and I'd be more than happy to start with a wi-fi app. But the 1st stumbling block I see is what toolkit?  No matter what is selected some group is going to complain that toolkit is too heavy or that it sucks. So I'm thinking that the tools would need be able to support multiple toolkits. Can others see all the complexity now in designing a GUI to please the masses.  I can' really go by what I think because I use i3 as my DE. 

I sure welcome any thoughts that could help me decided if I really want to take any of this on.


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## Jurik (Jan 22, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				kpa said:
			
		

> You seem to be one of those who think that there's some central committee sitting somewhere that decides what goes in to FreeBSD and what doesn't.


Not at all. But I can clearly see what in 20+ years of FreeBSD development 'went in' and what didn't. That alone is enough to make founded claims about FreeBSD developer's ideas, direction and goals.

But now that you mention 'central comittee', which (it seems at least) you consider a good thing not having it, I have to disagree. IMNSHO FreeBSD lacks a clear direction and leadership of head figure (or central comittee if you please) which would set clear goals, priorites, pathways for the project. Sort of what Theo does for OpenBSD, tho you would be better off with someone little less... 'radical'. 



			
				kpa said:
			
		

> FreeBSD developers (especially the teams like the X11 and the Gnome teams) are largely individual enthusiast users of FreeBSD who are also capable programmers.


Well actually, I don't doubt their expertize, nor do I question that anywhere in my previous post. I called them lazy, yes, but thats entirely different thing.



			
				kpa said:
			
		

> They have their own interests and won't take any crap from anyone about what their interests should be because they just know better and don't have time to dabble in what they consider non-essential for their own work.


Now with this kind of thinking, you can justify pretty much everything. Take the worst, most lacking, piece of code from any project and your quote will defend it just like that.
Noone knows it all and the only way forward is in exchanging ideas and looking outside of your pretty little... garden.


			
				nanotek said:
			
		

> @Jurik, while you have some valid points, your argument loses preponderance because of how you present it.


Well I agree my tone was little harsh but it was not uncalled for. I registrated and posted only because certain misinformations struck a nerve and had to be straighted out.

Now, don't label me for some kind of hater. No, that would be very wrong. *My only disappointment with FreeBSD is that it could have become much more then what it is.* If you all would be little more open minded and brave enough to lead forward with some progressive changes! The author of this topic brought up nice idea of GUI wireless, but there is sadly no interest for any GUI userland tools in this project. Hell, even X is not included in base install (which even ultra conservative OpenBSD have). So its also kinda hard to accept FreeBSD as 'complete unified OS' (which *BSD proponents often brag about) while not even having display server. But alright, will not delve into that topic too much as I suppose modularity is in high regards here, and everyone is happy with just having X in ports. And I don't want ocean of angry reactions on that my claim to emerge. But that's the easy way of doing things. And the way of stagnation. And if you want to go forward, that has to change.

So long ~


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## wblock@ (Jan 22, 2014)

I've edited the subject of this thread to add "Wireless GUI" to make sure other interested people see it.

A couple of points:

wpa_supplicant(8) handles WPA, WEP, and no encryption at all.  There is no need to use ifconfig(8) for WEP.

Remember that programs aren't magically created.  If you want one, find one that works, or port and adapt one, or write one, or hire somebody to write one, or convince the Foundation to fund the writing of one.

A wireless GUI would not go into base because the base does not have X or a GUI toolkit, but it would be available from ports.

@roddierod might write it in Python.  I would start by developing a description of the minimum of what such a program should do:

Show a list of available wireless networks and wired connections.

Allow connection to those networks and entry of a passphrase, if needed.

Update /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf to retain the information.


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## shepper (Jan 22, 2014)

In addition to NetworkManager and Wicd there is another option that may be more ammendable to the BSD's.  Arch LInux, prior to the migration to systemd, had a menu option.  If the option was set in rc.conf the kernel would boot normally up to the point were the network connection was established.  Then the process would pause and an ncurses menu would appear listing preconfigured menu options that were selectable.  Select the desired network and finish booting with the "enter" key.
In Arch the network options were previously configured in an interfaces file.

I do not have the skills to set this up but I believe that it would not entail linux api's.  Additionally, it would work for command line warriors.


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## robspop (Jan 22, 2014)

Since my original post I have installed the new 10.0 release on my laptop.  Wifi works fine, as before (I kept my old wpa_supplicant.conf and everything connected straight away).  However, my mobile broadband no longer works.  I've kept the ppp.conf file and it's the same "dongle" as before, but now it is seen as a mass-storage device and loaded as /dev/cd0.  I can remember this being a problem some years ago with these devices, and I can even remember solving it.  Right now though I don't know what the answer is.  I've posted a query here on the forums but so far had no reply.

At present, I am very busy at work, I do not have time to spend on this, and I cannot do without mobile internet access.  I had a couple of spare hours on Monday evening and I did a quick install of Debian on a spare disk.  I used the xfce version so no gnome and no kde.  It works fine: literally 4 or 5 clicks set the whole thing up and that's it.  Is that such a bad thing?

If I can't get this to work I will have to go with Debian because I need it.  That will mean one system on my laptop, another on my desktop: not impossible by any means, but it's easier if they are the same.  I would be very sorry not to use FreeBSD but I suppose it might come to that.

I really admire the people who write and maintain the code that makes systems like FreeBSD work, and who do this for no financial reward.  I take the point that someone would have to volunteer to do this, and I acknowledge that I don't have the skills or the time or the energy to do it myself.

There's a video on youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSut68fZqAc that shows some sort of FreeBSD vs Linux thing: it's a few years old and a bit daft anyway, but it has some people allegedly from the FreeBSD development team and their participation at least appears to show that they might have hoped people would use the system.  Is that no longer true?


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## Jurik (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				roddierod said:
			
		

> And finally, I be giving this some thought since the beginning of this thread, but I would volunteer to work on a set of FreeBSD specific "user friendly" GUI tools (given that they are written in Python for now because my C is rusty) and I'd be more than happy to start with a wi-fi app. But the 1st stumbling block I see is what toolkit?  No matter what is selected some group is going to complain that toolkit is too heavy or that it sucks. So I'm thinking that the tools would need be able to support multiple toolkits. Can others see all the complexity now in designing a GUI to please the masses.  I can' really go by what I think because I use i3 as my DE.


Alrightie, these are some great news, I hope you can persist and follow up on that initiative, many would be grateful and find it useful. Who knows, maybe you kickstart a new era in which usefullness of simple GUI tools is widely recognized and encouraged.  :e 

Now my opinion about ideal toolkit choice for FreeBSD. Forget about GTK and qt. They would work in 2005, but In their latest incarnations they both lost a compass, went astray and have become heavy, slow and bloated. Today's best candidates are EFL and FLTK. Take your pick. Both have python bindings so don't need to worry about that. EFL are best known for being building blocks for one of lightest, slickest desktop environment - E17. FLTK is maybe lesser known but IMO still very worthy, super-light-fast contender. So check them out. Doesn't matter what you pick. Application made using any of those 2 toolkits will work for everyone with just a few additional graphic libraries installed!


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## jrm@ (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				roddierod said:
			
		

> What does the installer use to configure wireless networks?  And could this be adapted into something the average user can use?


If you like the way the installer configures things, you might be interested in sysutils/bsdconfig,


----------



## roddierod (Jan 23, 2014)

I'll have a look at this tonight, thanks.  I remember DruidBSD for years back but never really looked into it much.  Since this says it works with `dialog`and `xdialog`this maybe something along the lines of what I was thinking.


----------



## nanotek (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				roddierod said:
			
		

> I install FreeBSD 10.0 Release on a Core2Duo Sony Vaio laptop that I borrowed from work last weekend just to play with the new release.  During the install I chose the wireless network name and entered the network password and that was it. I didn't have to edit any files.
> 
> Now I did not play with switching networks or anything like that so maybe that is more complicated, although I suspect it has more to do with the wireless device of the laptop.



In my case, I had to accept an Intel licensing agreement by adding a line to loader.conf, which is why I couldn't take advantage of the simplistic bsdinstall dialog to configure WiFi. The subsequent inconvenience, however, is partly endured when/if connection to new networks is needed (i.e. wpa_supplicant.conf edits but no `ifconfig`/rc.conf configuration).



			
				roddierod said:
			
		

> What does the installer use to configure wireless networks?  And could this be adapted into something the average user can use?



This is a really good idea; a simple TUI dialog and no GUI, per se, would be more than enough to quell the frurore.



			
				roddierod said:
			
		

> I would volunteer to work on a set of FreeBSD specific "user friendly" GUI tools (given that they are written in Python for now because my C is rusty) and I'd be more than happy to start with a wi-fi app.



Good on you! In all honesty, if I possessed the skills I would certainly contribute. In fact, when I finish my degree I will possess the skills and will contribute.



			
				shepper said:
			
		

> Arch LInux, prior to the migration to systemd, had a menu option.  If the option was set in rc.conf the kernel would boot normally up to the point were the network connection was established.  Then the process would pause and an ncurses menu would appear listing preconfigured menu options that were selectable.  Select the desired network and finish booting with the "enter" key.
> In Arch the network options were previously configured in an interfaces file.



This is also a good idea: The option to select which network and/or connection -- if both WiFi and ethernet is available -- at boot.



			
				jrm said:
			
		

> If you like the way the installer configures things, you might be interested in sysutils/bsdconfig,



Nice suggestion. Can't believe I never thought of that myself. Thanks, @jrm.


----------



## kpedersen (Jan 23, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				nanotek said:
			
		

> This is a really good idea; a simple TUI dialog and no GUI, per se, would be more than enough to quell the frurore.



I would personally find a TUI much more useful. We could use *curses too so to avoid messing around with maintaining GUI toolkits.

For those who really want a GUI window to appear can always set up the shortcut of `xterm -e tui_wifi`

The official python curses api looks really simple too (http://docs.python.org/2/howto/curses.html). It pretty much exactly mimicks the C API that we all know and love.


----------



## zspider (Jan 24, 2014)

*Re: "Killer App" for FreeBSD?*



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> nanotek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, big fan of *curses too. Though I like the pure command line more.


----------



## SaltyNoob (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm using an ArchBang as base with VirtualBox to run FreeBSD. Once I figure stuff out, I have 90GB SSD reserved for FreeBSD. The only reason for this set up is so the FreeBSD VM can can go on-line, by using the ArchBang host's Sprint Mobile Broadband connection. I'm willing to donate $80 to $100 US dollars towards a kick-starter, or any other crowd funding effort to get Mobile Broadband working as *similar and simple* as it works for Linux. 

Just constructive criticism from a BSD noob and forum lurker. Sometimes I get the same opinion of an earlier comment. There does seem to be a sense of pride doing things the hard way, among the FreeBSD veterans. I guess I can consider myself an intermediate level Linux user. So I know the feeling when a Linux noob ask question that can be easily solved by command line, but they insist on solving their issue with the GUI. I also realize one aspect of Linux growth is less reliance on the command line. Maybe a set of automatic scripts for command line networking task. Example:

If you have read the documentation and still have trouble, welcome to the FreeBSD's Beginner Networking Script.
Please type networkinghelp.py (made up name) and press return. (Script starts)
If you have an Ethernet cable press 1
If you want to start WiFi press 2
if you want to start Mobile broadband press 3  (OP's original wish)

Once you user presses what they want the script walks them through step by step. Pretty much the same instructions from the docs but in a script format.  (I have no no clue how hard this would be) 

This script would need to be tested on people who use computers as appliances, you know the *normal* people.  Not nerds, geeks, or techies like us. 

If the one of the goals of FreeBSD is adoption, than I think this would be a big help.


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## kpedersen (Jan 24, 2014)

SaltyNoob said:
			
		

> There does seem to be a sense of pride doing things the hard way, among the FreeBSD veterans.



People make the assumption that FreeBSD/Linux veterans find the command line harder than a constantly evolving GUI application. This assumption is wrong. FreeBSD is also the wrong operating system to turn into a beautifully interactive consumer experience (Ubuntu or Mac OS X would be much better starting points for that project).

This is kind of similar to why nvi or editors/vim are so popular. Do people really think that these tools are still around just because we like "doing things the hard way"?

This is especially frustrating when we have a perfectly good "GUI" version of FreeBSD already with PC-BSD. Can this just not be used? If they don't like KDE, then perhaps they are the perfect candidate to come over to our command-line / window manager side


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## nanotek (Jan 24, 2014)

SaltyNoob said:
			
		

> Sometimes I get the same opinion of an earlier comment. There does seem to be a sense of pride doing things the hard way, among the FreeBSD veterans.



This is an accurate observation. It's not unique to FreeBSD or even computer demographics, though; it's a classic tribal instinct and elitist mindset inherent in all males (and females). Once you identify with a particular subset of your species, you develop xenophobic tendencies and a propensity to defend that which you believe personifies you. In this case, FreeBSD possesses qualities that resemble those of its tribesmen, traits that separate them from other tribes. Allowing changes to occur, that seemingly homogenize their kind, is undesirable and must be opposed at all costs.

It is not a matter of preserving that which works for them -- as can be demonstrably proven by the fact that additional features need not replace existing ones (e.g. providing GUI functionality does not remove the CLI) -- but of preserving that which they identify with: FreeBSD users enjoy being perceived as FreeBSD users, not Linux users. Adaptations to FreeBSD that resemble that of Linux, for example, erode that perception.

It's human nature.


----------



## kpedersen (Jan 24, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> It's human nature.



And also why we have a ports collection. To take the full impact of GUI "apps" and to keep base clean from clutter 

If you must, think of FreeBSD as having a politically correct outer shell with a chewy xenophobic core haha


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## SaltyNoob (Jan 24, 2014)

My comment about having pride doing the things hard way is not meant to be a negative. Just different. So please, no bashing of developers or long time veterans. 
I could remember the first time I got Arch and few weeks later Gentoo installed. I can see the benefit in the way those two distros do things, but during the learning process I always felt that some aspect could be made simpler. 

I think my crazy suggestion of a command line instructional script for getting your network up (especially mobile broadband) instead of a gui is a happy medium.


----------



## jrm@ (Jan 24, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> FreeBSD users enjoy being perceived as FreeBSD users, not Linux users. Adaptations to FreeBSD that resemble that of Linux, for example, erode that perception.  It's human nature.


It also seems to be human nature to compartmentalize.  I think you will find many diverse opinions among FreeBSD users.  Please remember, just because _a_ FreeBSD user wrote it on the forums doesn't mean he/she speaks for everyone.  Having said that, a consistent theme has been keeping things simple, whether it's the license, the code, the filesystem hierarchy, etc.  I don't think it's about being different, but about focusing on what developers feel is most important.


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## tzoi516 (Jan 24, 2014)

FreeBSD can stay the way it is core-wise. That being said, while working *in* a GUI that isn't Gnome or KDE it would be nice to have a GUI-based utility. Yes, some people can write their own utility and share, but not everyone is a programmer or would know where to begin to manipulate hardware after installing (yes, there's the handbook, but it's not completely up-to-date - who would refer their children to a 50's book on the birds and the bees today?).

Note: none of the above is a slam on developers - I appreciate everything porters/developers have done. I just think people shouldn't fear the GUI and try to talk people who want a GUI into using the terminal.


----------



## zspider (Jan 24, 2014)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> nanotek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Also since the FreeBSD foundation is involved in funding PC-BSD which was built for primarily for the purpose of being a FreeBSD desktop, it is not right to expect them to duplicate their efforts. PC-BSD doesn't exist just for the hell of it.


----------



## wblock@ (Jan 25, 2014)

ixSystems is the company behind PC-BSD.  The Foundation has funded some projects that benefit both FreeBSD and PC-BSD.


----------



## nanotek (Jan 25, 2014)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> nanotek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I highly value the distinction between the base system and ports, I wouldn't like it to change.




			
				SaltyNoob said:
			
		

> I think my crazy suggestion of a command line instructional script for getting your network up (especially mobile broadband) instead of a gui is a happy medium.



It's not a bad idea at all. I prefer the TUI dialog WiFi suggestion, but a script could be educational and functional, which is great.




			
				jrm said:
			
		

> It also seems to be human nature to compartmentalize.  I think you will find a many diverse opinions among FreeBSD users.  Please remember, just because _a_ FreeBSD user wrote it on the forums doesn't mean he/she speaks for everyone.



This is a valid point; I nearly made the same comment in my previous post. There are many opinions and some speculative assertions made regarding the FreeBSD developers (in this thread alone) and the FreeBSD userbase, but how many developers actually posted in here?



			
				jrm said:
			
		

> Having said that, a consistent theme has been keeping things simple, whether it's the license, the code, the filesystem hierarchy, etc.  I don't think it's about being different, but about focusing on what developers feel is most important.



I agree entirely. However, I don't really see the addition of improved WiFi/mobile functionality as straying from the KISS principle. Not to say a GUI app should be included in the base system -- this makes no sense considering there is no DE in the base system -- but improved TUI/CLI functionality could be considered.




			
				tzoi516 said:
			
		

> FreeBSD can stay the way it is core-wise. That being said, while working *in* a GUI that isn't Gnome or KDE it would be nice to have a GUI-based utility. Yes, some people can write their own utility and share, but not everyone is a programmer or would know where to begin to manipulate hardware after installing (yes, there's the handbook, but it's not completely up-to-date - who would refer their children to a 50's book on the birds and the bees today?).



Currently, none of my FreeBSD systems are running a DE but I, too, think there should be some consideration for those who do operate a GUI. I actually think the Handbook is one of FreeBSD's greatest achievements, though; it's extremely comprehensive and I can't think of any other OS that comes close to FreeBSD in this department.




			
				zspider said:
			
		

> Also since the FreeBSD foundation is involved in funding PC-BSD which was built for primarily for the purpose of being a FreeBSD desktop, it is not right to expect them to duplicate their efforts. PC-BSD doesn't exist just for the hell of it.



Efforts can be shared instead of duplicated; nevertheless, I don't think calls for a TUI dialog, script, or WiFi GUI port conflates to a duplication of efforts between the BSDs. Further, there is nothing in the literature that states FreeBSD is exclusively for servers and should not be used for anything else.


----------



## ronaldlees (Jan 25, 2014)

One of the things I really like about FreeBSD is the emphasis it puts on "base/core only" installations.  My use of the "minimal" installation option in the installer probably outnumbers my use of anything more complicated by several times over.  A lot of FreeBSD installations are geared towards servers and the assumed level of security associated with that kind of environment.  In such a case, security+=minimalism.  

It's been a long time since I've had any delusions about personally vetting all the pieces and parts of Gnome.  I'm not sure I can do that even for Xorg.  So, around here, we use the smallest subset of the ports system that gets the job done, and absolutely no more than that.  I have occasionally set up the wpa_gui for  a friends (non-techie)  machine, and it works pretty well.  The wpa_supplicant setup on FreeBSD is so simple though, such that the gui's only needed in the scenario just described.  

I don't ever expect FreeBSD to be available in the form of a flashy interface loaded with "every hip app known" on a bloated and consumerized slick GUI.   We're talking about two groups of people - living on different continents, in different centuries.   I don't particularly trust the super consumer GUIs available in the Linux world, but they may be fine.  Maybe the security on those platforms is perfect, in spite of the inclusion of copious quantities of user software.  Yet, I'll stick with my dogma-belief that too many pieces and parts cause trouble.

There is a disclaimer in the ports system, advising that some pieces and parts may  not play nice.  It's there for a reason!


----------



## wblock@ (Jan 25, 2014)

This finally prompted me to try net/wpa_gui.  It seems to do pretty much what people want.  I have minor complaints:

 It does not let you switch to a wired interface
 Networks should be color-coded for security (WPA should be green, WEP yellow, no encryption red)
 The sorting in the scan list is by string on signal strength when it should be by numeric value

The second two are probably not hard to fix, certainly easier than starting from scratch.  The first is out of scope for this program, but would still be very useful.

To test it, remember that the two entries for ctrl_interface in /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf are needed:

```
ctrl_interface=/var/run/wpa_supplicant
ctrl_interface_group=wheel
```


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## sossego (Jan 25, 2014)




----------



## sulman (Feb 3, 2014)

It's actually quite a difficult area, and I understand why FreeBSD developers are unwilling to jump into it. 

For open wifi hotspots and simple consumer WPA connections, the GUI tools in Linux are great; but they can struggle with enterprise configurations, especially where credentials or certificates are involved. NetworkManager, by the way, can be very buggy - a few distros recommend ditching it for WICD as soon as possible. 

This means one has to dig into configuration files. Now, once you've done that you realise the config files are not that scary, and it's often just as easy for a naked ifconfig + wpa_supplicant setup anyway. Arch Linux has a good intermediary called netctl - it's essentially a script - but it does the job pretty well.


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## beatgammit (Feb 3, 2014)

sulman said:
			
		

> This means one has to dig into configuration files. Now, once you've done that you realise the config files are not that scary, and it's often just as easy for a naked ifconfig + wpa_supplicant setup anyway. Arch Linux has a good intermediary called netctl - it's essentially a script - but it does the job pretty well.



And wifi-menu is nice to get you bootstrapped on a new network if you're travelling between access points.


----------



## robspop (Feb 4, 2014)

A final postscript from me as OP.

Thanks to all those who contributed, and particularly to those who made positive suggestions and even volunteered to contribute something: I wish you good luck with this.

To those who got all hot and bothered with the suggestion that a GUI tool might be useful, all I can say is: if you are reading this on a browser like Firefox or Chrome, then shame on you: what is wrong with lynx?

Lots of people who have commented seem to have willfully either misunderstood, or be misinformed.  Relatively few people have commented on the mobile broadband issue, yet I have said a couple of times that this is the thing that is particularly difficult in FreeBSD: there is no point commending tools like wpa_supplicant for this as they do not do that job (and are not intended to).

I have given up and gone back to Debian.  I can tell you that I do *not* have either Gnome or KDE installed, I am still using FVWM, but I do have nm-applet and it works: I can connect to mobile boadband with a few clicks and then get on with the things I actually want to work on.  For all I know it might be troublesome in a large corporate environment, but I would not use it there anyway.  For connecting a laptop to a mobile broadband service on a train passing through areas of good and bad connectivity, it works beautifully.


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## jb_fvwm2 (Feb 4, 2014)

I see it not as a misinformation, rather a misunderstanding.  It took me two weeks to "install" ppp on windows98, and two weeks to tweak wpa-stuff to get an Edimax dongle driver working well enough, and one week to get a onboard-laptop dirver working well enough, with the unexpected benefit that the Edimax this past few weeks served as a near-DSL dropin for a two week DSL outage (bad colocation card).  I've scripted the ethernet > dongle > ethernet reboot in two shell scripts  (an hour or so total...)...  
So it appears from here to be a lack of persons with time enough to setup/test a front end to all that at the operating system level, as almost all are working unpaid, etc.  (VS Linux, Microsoft, etc...).      Perhaps the OP with more experience with replies to similar questions would have been able to phrase the question differently, eliciting a more helpful series of replies.  

All in defense of the criticism of the replies... not meant as a criticism of the question necessarily.   (I've asked similar ones... )


----------



## robspop (Feb 4, 2014)

Time I got a life and stopped posting on this thread, but:



> not as a misinformation, rather a misunderstanding



There have been several replies that have stated that you can only use the Linux GUI application with Gnome or KDE, and a few others that have talked about bloat, and these are simply plain wrong: you do not need either of these to run nm-applet and, if you already have some sort of X environment running, it adds very little.

But, fine, nobody is interested, ok: it was only on off-topic discussion suggestion.


----------



## CreativeGPX (Feb 4, 2014)

As a disclaimer, I'm talking about the broad point here, since I haven't come across this specific problem.

First, I do think usability issues like this do need more attention. The real issue is a lack of abstraction not necessarily lack of GUI. There is a set of consistently repeated micro-tasks that a user must perform to achieve a "common" mega-task. The micro-task philosophy is one focused on "what does the machine need to do" while the mega-task philosophy is one focused on "what does the user want to do". Whether it's being done through GUI or command line, all of the most popular general operating systems (Windows, Mac and many of the more popular Linux distributions) achieve their popularity by putting an emphasis on this layer that abstracts what needs to get done from what a user wants to happen. It could be GUI based or it could be command line based. It just has to focus on what they user wants, rather than what the machine must carry out in files and settings to make that happen. Understanding the micro-tasks can be overwhelming in the beginning because by their nature they require a more systemic understanding of FreeBSD. Every manual step also can result in a lot of wasted effort and more points for user error. Any time somebody can hand you a concrete set of steps to carry out to achieve something, it's irresponsible for a programmer not to automate it. The Handbook is full of concrete sets of steps to achieve high level goals yet most of it is still an entirely manual process. Either way, coming up with these (perhaps prompt-driven) mega-tasks is compatible with command-line lovers yet largely fixes the usability problem. If they were scripts full of inline documentation they could (1) be full customizable to the power user, (2) be manually runnable, (3) be ignorable, (4) serve as educational material such as the contents of the handbook and (4) work for command line users. I think that's the way to go in time.

Now for the other side: Saying you don't know how to program/script so you can't make a solution isn't an attitude that got anything in FreeBSD to any pleasing state ever. Like most programmers, I didn't learn to program to get a job or for pure curiosity. I learned to program because there were things that didn't work they way I wanted them to. The nature of a volunteer project like FreeBSD is that things get done when people get fed up to the point of doing something about it. The more people that get fed up about an issue, the more likely it is that one of them will actually decide to fix it. Since your issue is less common, there are less people to get fed up and therefore less of a chance somebody will fix it. Saying that you can't create a simple solution you are proposing because you can't code is saying that it's impossible to learn to code which isn't true. It's easy. It's so easy that I was able to teach myself over the internet when I didn't know anything beyond basic math. Pick up a book on shell scripting, python or perl and you'll be on your way to automating the pain of yourself and others into a simple, easy process. You'll be able to get something simple together. If it's not perfect, that's fine. People will be more able to lend a hand to refine or fix a FreeBSD feature than to build one from scratch. Maybe somebody will even get fed up with YOUR solution and then make an even better one.  Solve the problem for your own good. Solve it for the next person who comes along and has that problem. Solve it for the mere sake that your experience figuring it out wasn't wasted. At the very very least, if you aren't willing to take to scripting, write what you did in a tutorial for others. That helps people too and it gives coders a systematic reference for what actions they should code if they wanted to. FreeBSD needs your help just as much as you need theirs.


----------



## robspop (Feb 4, 2014)

> Saying you don't know how to program/script so you can't make a solution isn't an attitude that got anything in FreeBSD to any pleasing state ever



Fair point; in fact I can program in C moderately well and Perl to an extent, but I don't have time.  I buy BSD goodies from time to time and donated something to last year's appeal so I have tried to do my bit that way.

I accept that it is an obscure problem, but in a way, that comes right back to my original point: if there was a bigger user base maybe there would be more solutions being produced, and maybe there would be a bigger user base if the response to this sort of suggestion didn't have such a large element of "GUI's, whatever next?  He'll be wanting a screen next - what's wrong with octal output?"

It might be an obscure problem in FreeBSD but it's not actually a new one, and even OpenSolaris managed to solve it a few years ago.

Maybe everyone will move to "mifi" and it will simply go away.


----------



## CreativeGPX (Feb 4, 2014)

To make the OS more widely appealing requires more volunteer-hours than the community has. To get more volunteer-hours for the community requires the OS being more widely appealing. It's a circular problem which is broken when some new developer comes along and starts a usability team. 

While these usability features definitely should exist, it's not relevant whether they are included with FreeBSD by default. That's why distributions were invented! As long as the tools get added into Ports, then FreeBSD could just have a few untainted distributions where the sole difference between them and FreeBSD is the pre-installation and configuration of a scenario-based set of ports. There could be one for mobile computing for what you are talking about. This gets around your concerns about PC-BSD being too bloated or impure and the concerns of others regarding polluting the core.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 4, 2014)

I have heard a couple of times in this thread that FreeBSD commandline users / developers should give GUI applications a go and maybe start to appreciate it.

This is quite amusing because I am sure that command line users have used GUI applications and have more experience in both than the GUI users who have tried using the command-line.
So I turn the question around... Perhaps people wanting (and seemingly needing) to add superfluous GUI cruft to FreeBSD should actually give the command line a go. It might open some doors for them 

GUI software does have it's place (once a portable library and CLI version of the software has been made). What would be a bit silly is trying to get BSD developers to waste their time on it when instead they are more qualified to do important stuff anyway.

But anyway, leave the GUI stuff to the Gnome project. They seem to be doing a good job (*snigger*)

As for the absolute mess that is web browsers and HTML... yeah, perhaps we should go back to the text only gopher protocol in the command line. Less stupid flash adverts. And give me Mutt over gmail or hotmail web any day of the week!


----------



## CreativeGPX (Feb 4, 2014)

"Command line" is far too imprecise to mean anything in a discussion about usability or user efficiency though. All that really means is that you are deciding to use characters. It doesn't say whether there are a ton of those characters or a few. It doesn't say if those words are cryptic or readable/memorable. It doesn't say how much study and specialized knowledge is required for a user to come up with those characters. It doesn't say how finicky the input processing is. It doesn't say how human-readable the output is. There are incredible command line interfaces (Git  :f  ). There are also lots of terrible ones. Apparently, we have a terrible command line solution to the scenario that was mentioned. Regardless of how that is solved, the problem is the lack of solution not the nature of the solution. If a good CLI solution existed already, making the GUI version would be trivial. If good GUI solution existed, making the CLI version would be trivial. The challenge is in the automation of the actions performed, not the ability to solicit input and present output.


----------



## tzoi516 (Feb 4, 2014)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> So I turn the question around... Perhaps people wanting (and seemingly needing) to add superfluous GUI cruft to FreeBSD should actually give the command line a go. It might open some doors for them


Why do I care about fuel economy, cruise control, power steering, locks, and brakes? It's all cruft on a car because all I need is for it to take me from point 'A' to point 'B'.

I don't think a GUI is better, but I don't think it's inferior either. It's like buttons on a phone - they're going away whether people like it or not, what's progress today is the lost love of the NES tomorrow.


----------



## shepper (Feb 5, 2014)

Selecting a wireless interface at boot is getting some attention in OpenBSD


----------



## nanotek (Feb 5, 2014)

robspop said:
			
		

> A final postscript from me as OP.
> 
> Thanks to all those who contributed, and particularly to those who made positive suggestions and even volunteered to contribute something: I wish you good luck with this.
> 
> To those who got all hot and bothered with the suggestion that a GUI tool might be useful, all I can say is: if you are reading this on a browser like Firefox or Chrome, then shame on you: what is wrong with lynx?



 :e  :e  :e 

Touché! Very good call, my friend.



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> Lots of people who have commented seem to have willfully either misunderstood, or be misinformed.  Relatively few people have commented on the mobile broadband issue, yet I have said a couple of times that this is the thing that is particularly difficult in FreeBSD: there is no point commending tools like wpa_supplicant for this as they do not do that job (and are not intended to).



Don't let the fanboys and deliberately obtuse bother you, you were more than eloquent, not to mention respectful, in your OP. The fact is, FreeBSD is behind the curve in this department and (as far as I know) no developers commented in this thread so the vacuous remarks don't reflect the ambitions or sentiments of those that matter.



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> I have given up and gone back to Debian.  I can tell you that I do *not* have either Gnome or KDE installed, I am still using FVWM, but I do have nm-applet and it works: I can connect to mobile boadband with a few clicks and then get on with the things I actually want to work on.  For all I know it might be troublesome in a large corporate environment, but I would not use it there anyway.  For connecting a laptop to a mobile broadband service on a train passing through areas of good and bad connectivity, it works beautifully.



Maybe dual booting with Debian and a shared /home partition might be an idea till FreeBSD catches up?

If Microsoft can do it (and do it well), FreeBSD will...eventually.


----------



## kpa (Feb 5, 2014)

> If Microsoft can do it (and do it well), FreeBSD will...eventually.



Microsoft has been able to do what they have done simply because the emphasis has been on the GUI from the very start of MS Windows and the GUI is an integral part of their operating system, it's not called "Windows" for nothing. On FreeBSD the GUI parts have always been on optional addon status and it has always been assumed that the GUI parts come from the X11 windowing system (with no real alternatives to speak of) with some 3rd party window manager/DE suite. Furthermore it has been assumed that the functionalities that the window manager/DE provides is up to the user him/herself to configure and the OS itself forces no policy whatsoever on what type of applications or utilities the DE suite (for example) should contain.

All I'm trying to say with this is that development of such graphical "killer app" is quite out of scope for the FreeBSD OS itself. It can make it easier for someone to develop such app by improving the programming APIs that are used to configure the network interfaces and fixing the problems with the wireless networking.


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 5, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> FreeBSD will...eventually.



There is no reason to assume it ever will. This sort of GUI requirement is low priority for most of the FreeBSD userbase.

Luckily you GUI guys have Windows, Mac OS X and countless distros for that 

Oh... and PC-BSD if you do preferably decide to stay with BSD.


----------



## roddierod (Feb 5, 2014)

I think this is relavent to note when people talk about userbase and more user equates to more contibutions of code: http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/soft ... ting-linux

Also there is a FreeBSD Desktop mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listin ... sd-desktop and there wiki page https://wiki.freebsd.org/DesktopIntegration

There is not much traffic on the list, but I think it purpose was to discuss things such as this.  Maybe if we could get more traffic things like this would get made.


----------



## nanotek (Feb 6, 2014)

kpa said:
			
		

> > If Microsoft can do it (and do it well), FreeBSD will...eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> nanotek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're missing the forest for the trees: it's not about a GUI in the base system. If you read the OP and, in my case, my posts we've not explicitly requested any such thing. It's about basic functionality existent in other CLI/TUI environments that FreeBSD lacks in its default installation and the absence of trivial features in ports for both graphical and text environments.

I can take my Windows 7 or OpenSUSE notebook to the airport with me and use mobile broadband in the cab on the way, seamlessly pick up the WiFi hotspot at the terminal while waiting for my plane. Jump back on mobile broadband after arriving interstate and taking the train to my final destination where I switch over to my clients wireless AP. And do the same in reverse on my return.

And, given OpenBSD is looking toward improvements in this area, you can bet FreeBSD will follow suit.


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## kpedersen (Feb 6, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> I can take my Windows 7 or OpenSUSE notebook to the airport with me and use mobile broadband in the cab on the way, seamlessly pick up the WiFi hotspot at the terminal while waiting for my plane. Jump back on mobile broadband after arriving interstate and taking the train to my final destination where I switch over to my clients wireless AP. And do the same in reverse on my return.



To do all this is trivial in FreeBSD. When I have taken my laptop to the airport, it is very easy to swap networks (probably quicker than opening up any program). Depending on how your mobile broadband works, again, that should just be connecting to a different ssid with wpa password? Same with the client's AP right? Where are you finding the difficulty exactly? When using Linux, I tend to use wpa_supplicant directly anyway because it *is* an easy TUI tool, the only difference is that Linux calls the WiFi interfaces stupid names.

The more important issue in my opinion, is FreeBSD's slightly unreliable suspend resume, meaning that moving around the airport usually involves shutdown / restart.

So like I said. If you want a WiFi GUI program in ports, thats obviously fine. But also try out PC-BSD, that comes with a WiFi GUI tool by default with no extra work required.



			
				nanotek said:
			
		

> And, given OpenBSD is looking toward improvements in this area, you can bet FreeBSD will follow suit.


From the misc@ mailing list, it seems like an OpenBSD user is attempting to put some wifi selection in the boot scripts. I dont quite think this means OpenBSD is looking at including this in the actual OS and there is no evidence as such.
Besides, if you may notice, FreeBSD includes far less in the base than OpenBSD. The goals are not the same between these two operating systems. Otherwise we would have X11 in base (though not necessarily Xenocara).

But that said... I really don't want to be "that guy" that puts a negative spin on any project idea. So if you (or someone else) wants to develop an easy to use WiFi tool. May I suggest using the Motif GUI toolkit? I know the CDE project is lacking a WiFi tool and this project might be able to hit two birds with one stone.


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## zspider (Feb 6, 2014)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> nanotek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tell me, how would desktop FreeBSD turn out any differently than the already existing PC-BSD? I'm still trying to figure that out...


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## kpa (Feb 6, 2014)

zspider said:
			
		

> kpedersen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No difference at all because the desktop parts wouldn't come from FreeBSD, they would still be third party software pre-configured and tailored for FreeBSD. So why re-invent the wheel when there is already PC-BSD?


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## roddierod (Feb 6, 2014)

kpa said:
			
		

> zspider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the main difference is in the packaging system, those pbi or apps or whatever the current term is.  Are they all still self contained binaries? I don't follow PC-BSD development closely.  I installed version 10 and I could not get software to install using that app store thing.


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## robspop (Feb 7, 2014)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> To do all this is trivial in FreeBSD. When I have taken my laptop to the airport, it is very easy to swap networks (probably quicker than opening up any program). Depending on how your mobile broadband works, again, that should just be connecting to a different ssid with wpa password?



Sorry but no, it is not easy.  I can go from pub to hotspot to home to friend's house and swap wifi using wpa_supplicant quickly and easily.  Mobile broadband uses a modem dongle that requires a ppp configuration script, these are not quick and easy to set up.  I will accept that doing that is largely a one-off task, but it is by no means trivial.  And the problem became much bigger when FreeBSD 10 came along and refused to even recognise the dongle as a modem but insists on treating it as a mass storage device.  I can spend as long as I like trying to configure this using any method from command line to willing the laptop to do what I want via the power of thought alone, and it still won't connect to the internet.

And I wish you would actually read my posts if you are going to comment on them: for the _n_th time, I have no problem using the command line: almost all my work is done there and at any given time I probably have a browser and maybe a dozen xterms running.  I never asked for a gui as such, just gave one as an examle of an easy-to-use tool that FreeBSD doesn't have.

Let me ask you a question directly: if FreeBSD's attitude to suggestions like mine is "go away, we like it as it is", where do you see its future lying?


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## Carpetsmoker (Feb 7, 2014)

FreeBSD has a graphical control panel, it's called vi.


There are really 2 problems:
1) FreeBSD lacks *some* system for easier configuration.
2) PPP is bloody hard to setup

I think point 1 has some merit. The smarter programmers automate stuff (that is, make it easier)_*_, yeah, I know how to setup my wireless NIC, but I really don't want to. If possible, I want the blighter to `just work'™ with as little fuzz as possible. I'd much rather go out and get a date than muck about with wpa_supplicant.
The *really* smart programmers automate stuff, yet make sure it can still be modified or hacked if need be. That way, you have the best of both worlds.

Making a graphical (GUI or curses) WiFi scanner/setup script is fairly easy, and you can just write the chosen settings to /etc/rc.conf and /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf. Any half-witted programmer could probably do it in a week.
It doesn't even need to be `graphical' as such, the OpenBSD installer just asks you a bunch of questions, but it works very well. The old XFreeConfig did the same.
There's no need for NetworkManager, or other `magic' services, which are really just a pair of complicator gloves.

CentOS does this fairly well, you have a set of _system-config-*_ tools you can choose to install, which just modify various config files in /etc/. I never used them much, but my less experienced co-worker used to use them (until he got instructed in the true ways of UNIX, and became enlightend). It's a good idea, but somewhat poorly executed on CentOS.

AFAIK FreeBSD has one tool, which is tzsetup(8).

As for point 2, I know little about PPP. I once tried to setup a mobile dongle, and stopped when blood started to come gushing out of my nose. I spent 2 weeks in recovery.


*: An example of people who really don't seem to understand this, are (some of) the ArchLinux devs. About a year ago they removed their perfectly functioning installer, you now have to install ArchLinux using bash + fdisk + tar + praying you don't do anything wrong and hose your entire system.


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## roddierod (Feb 7, 2014)

So as I am seeing here the issue is more of hardware support for a usb modem wifi dongle...something I don't have or have ever used.
The other being the "easy of use" for configuring PPP - something which I have done since I bought a shiny new 56K modem way back when in the FreeBSD 3.x and 4.x days.

Being I don't have one of these mobile wi-fi things, I don't think there is anything I can do to help create something easily switch PPP connections.  Too bad there isn't some kind of virtual device.


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## jb_fvwm2 (Feb 7, 2014)

Due to a recent broadband downtime, I scripted a reboot-to-wifi.(sh) and a reboot-to-dsl.(sh) each of which copies seven! files from the script's staging directory to /etc /boot (etc)... but I had a laptop already setup with wifi.  Envisioning as I type this a hundred such users each posting to a thread here their scripts for a GUI (ncurses) programmer to program into a frontend app; seems all it would take is time.  But there are specific  (firewall...) (ndis-or-not) files within that script that makes it problematic... maybe if/when someone ever works on such a frontend one could check to see what Linux does in that regard (I think they have only two or so default firewalls in common use IIRC...)


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## CreativeGPX (Feb 7, 2014)

> Any half-witted programmer could probably do it in a week.


You're not proposing that anything that the individual user of FreeBSD could code a solution to in a week need not be included with FreeBSD, are you?


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## kpedersen (Feb 7, 2014)

robspop said:
			
		

> Mobile broadband uses a modem dongle that requires a ppp configuration script, these are not quick and easy to set up.  I will accept that doing that is largely a one-off task, but it is by no means trivial.


Since the OP topic is Wireless GUI, I assumed you connected to your mobile broadband via a WiFi interface (as seen in slightly less crippled Android phones).
Yes, PPP is awkward but frankly, I am more confident I can set it up on FreeBSD with the excellent handbook (https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/ppp-and-slip.html) rather than some short lived [GUI] tool (like on Gnome/Linux) that will probably be replaced next month with some other time consuming mess.
If users are not prepared to go through the handbook and set this up, FreeBSD really *is* the wrong tool for them.



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> the problem became much bigger when FreeBSD 10 came along and refused to even recognise the dongle as a modem but insists on treating it as a mass storage device.  I can spend as long as I like trying to configure this using any method from command line to willing the laptop to do what I want via the power of thought alone, and it still won't connect to the internet.


If FreeBSD 10 recognises it as a mass storage device, then lets stop wasting time thinking about perceived ease of use and lets spend time on getting the important stuff working. As you know, it is quite unlikely a nice easy to use script or GUI tool is going to help with this sort of issue.



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> I never asked for a gui as such, just gave one as an examle of an easy-to-use tool that FreeBSD doesn't have.


Since you seem to have experience in using *nix, my responses were not aimed at you. There are others in this thread that seem dead set on the "GUI is the most modern and only way" attitude that I was trying to get through to.



			
				robspop said:
			
		

> Let me ask you a question directly: if FreeBSD's attitude to suggestions like mine is "go away, we like it as it is", where do you see its future lying?


I am going to push back on this one. I see the future of FreeBSD in a much better position than the absolute fsck up that is the average "user friendly" Linux distro with their self indulgent desktop environments, complete with binary configuration blobs, stupid interface names and completely unusable commandline tools. The way that mainstream Ubuntu has turned out really does make me question open-source usability "experts".
There is a reason why FreeBSD is becoming attractive to Linux users recently. For example, we have less than a fraction of developers and... well, FreeBSD is pretty darn great isn't it?


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## tzoi516 (Feb 8, 2014)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> robspop said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most wireless broadband modems have a dual feature: flash storage and wireless broadband. Generally the drivers are installed on the flash part for ease of installation compared to the earlier modems. My opinion is FreeBSD recognizes the flash storage, but I'm sure if he was to run `pciconf` it will show the wireless broadband as being unrecognized.


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## wblock@ (Feb 8, 2014)

From u3g(4):

```
In some of these devices a mass storage device supported by the umass(4)
     driver is present which contains Windows and Mac OS X drivers.  The
     device starts up in disk mode (TruInstall, ZeroCD, etc.) and requires
     additional commands to switch it to modem mode. If your device is not
     switching automatically, please try to add quirks. See usbconfig(8) and
     usb_quirk(4).
```


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## kpa (Feb 8, 2014)

If the 3g modem worked on 9.2 but doesn't work on 10.0 it's certainly a regression that needs to be reported via a  PR so it can be fixed for 10.1. Just waiting apathetically that someone else reports the issue and it gets fixed is a non-starter idea with FreeBSD.


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## robspop (Feb 8, 2014)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> Since the OP topic is Wireless GUI


Fair point, but that was not my title for the post, it got edited to encourage more people to read it.  My title was just Killer App and the suggestion was for something that would manage all connections.  I have no problem with either wired or wireless via wpa_supplicant, my point about the linux thing was that it manages ppp as well, which is rather handy imho.



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> Since you seem to have experience in using *nix, my responses were not aimed at you


Apologies if I seemed to get a bit huffy!



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> well, FreeBSD is pretty darn great isn't it?


Actually, yes, I think it is: I would tend to describe FreeBSD as _real unix_ and most of the Linuxen I have tried as a _real mess_.  Personally, I would like to see more people using FreeBSD, and that is why I started the thread: I think if it was all a bit easier on a laptop then more people would use it.

I have personally solved the problem by changing my dongle to a mobile wifi hotspot so no need for ppp any more.


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## CreativeGPX (Feb 10, 2014)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> The way that mainstream Ubuntu has turned out really does make me question open-source usability "experts".


Ubuntu is aiming to be usable to a wide audience and usability is audience specific.

In FreeBSD, being able to say "read the manual" to most questions is a strength. The system tries to be central and consistent so that a motivated and computer literate person who has free time can basically figure out how to use or change any aspect of the system. In this case "usability" means something like, "for a well trained user, what can they do and how quickly?"

Comparatively, in Ubuntu (and Mac and Windows), having to say "read the manual" is a weakness. The system tries to be something you can just jump into and start using intuitively without an explanation. You're not supposed to need time and effort to learn it. The interface is supposed to help you bump into features and settings that you didn't know about rather than you having to stumble across them in a book or a manual so that you can learn by doing. In this case "usability" means something like, "for an inexperienced user, what can be done without help and how hard is it to break things?"

Neither idea of usability is inherently better. I think the more widely used definition of usability is the latter which corresponded to intuitiveness. The former corresponds more to power and elegance. Without a doubt, the latter will appeal to way more people because most of the population isn't an expert, dedicates little time to becoming an expert and doesn't think it's their job to become an expert. FreeBSD's notion of usability works well for the smaller group of experts as long as we keep it so that the effort in reading that manual keeps allowing people considerable advantages over other OSs.

The question that this whole conversation seems centered around though is whether these two types of usability are contradictory or not.


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## Cthulhux (Feb 13, 2014)

robspop said:
			
		

> I think if it was all a bit easier on a laptop then more people would use it.



Why would we profit from more people using it? FreeBSD is already peeking at becoming more "Linux-y", probably driven by Linux refugees who think "this is too much tech, let's add shiny GUIs and wizards for basic tasks".


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## scottro (Feb 13, 2014)

Much as I agree that it shouldn't be more Linux-y, I do wonder....

There are certain advantages to becoming more mainstream.  Whatever folks might think about Ubuntu, it seems that it went a long way in its heyday at least, in getting both hardware and software vendors to give Linux more serious consideration.   

While this might just be an old guy's vision of younger folks, I think that part of what happened was that as Ubuntu made it easier to use on a laptop, kids could be cooler than their friends by having something different.  Had it been too hard to get working with most laptops, though, many of these kids might have given up.  Then they go to college, come out, go work in IT, and they have this fondness for Ubuntu and Debian based systems.  

Now, FreeBSD doesn't have anything like that.  While we are all thinking, Great, who needs it, there is some value in having numbers, and having a growing influx of younger admins and developers liking it.  PCBSD, while it lowers the barrier a bit, still has various issues with, for example, finding some Linux distributions if it installs its own grub, or being found by other Linux distributions, at least on ZFS, if using said distro's grub.  (Note that this was in one quick test, while trying to decide whether to recommend it to a less technical friend, and while I'm sure it can be overcome, the entire experience seemed as if it would require more support than I was willing to give.)

I can easily find myself in the mood to support either viewpoint.  If only a few people in the next generation of admins and developers have no interest in it, it will slowly fade away.  
Yet, Linux becomes more like Windows with each iteration, even allowing for my old curmudgeon prejudices.  

I do think there are advantages to lowering the bar, at least to some point.   Then, I look at what the younger developers who seem to only be able to comprehend using a system on a single user laptop that goes to different places, and how they make it harder for sysadmins with the things that get put into the latest versions of Linux, and my view goes back the other way--let's leave the bar high and let the young, smartphone oriented developers go and continue to ruin Linux.  

Big Disclaimer. I'm old and grouchy and I'm sure that I resent some changes just because they are changes.


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## Cthulhux (Feb 13, 2014)

scottro said:
			
		

> Whatever folks might think about Ubuntu, it seems that it went a long way in its heyday at least, in getting both hardware and software vendors to give Linux more serious consideration.



I wouldn't call Unity "serious"...  :e 



			
				scottro said:
			
		

> Yet, Linux becomes more like Windows with each iteration



Yes, and that's because Windows users use Linux because it's shiny and free (and some of their friends obviously ignored that Snowden said that Linux can be opened easily).

If FreeBSD was more popular, it would end like Ubuntu, given that FreeBSD is the "user-friendly desktop BSD" compared to the other "plain" BSDs. I, for one, wouldn't want that.


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## jrm@ (Feb 13, 2014)

Cthulhux said:
			
		

> ...given that FreeBSD is the "user-friendly desktop BSD" compared to the other "plain" BSDs...


According to whom?  Do you mean PC-BSD?  FreeBSD comes without even Xorg, whereas other BSDs include it in the base.  I think there is some context to the thread that I'm missing.


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## Cthulhux (Feb 13, 2014)

According to my personal experience. I gave PC-BSD a short try during my first weeks with "the BSDs" just to find out that I can achieve quite the same results (without the PBIs) within not much more than an hour with a "real" FreeBSD. Setting up FreeBSD is amazingly easy compared to OpenBSD and NetBSD if you haven't read the manual first but already used Linux in the past.

Of course that's relative. PC-BSD, for example, is hard to use compared to Windows.


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## naali (Feb 13, 2014)

scottro said:
			
		

> Yet, Linux becomes more like Windows with each iteration



If that means they are removing the bloat from the desktops, it is a good thing. Granted, I gave up on Linux little less than 10 years ago, so I don't know what it is today. You made a very good post in my opinion.



			
				Cthulhux said:
			
		

> Yes, and that's because Windows users use Linux because it's shiny and free



I don't think being shiny has anything to do with it. There are lot of shiny programs that don't get user acceptance. Take a look at Windows 8 for comparison. Free is another thing, but it must be accompanied with a value to the user. A useless but free program is still a useless program. I think that is the most significant reason why many Linux projects are not gaining significant advances in their competition against proprietary software. This includes thinking that a good interface for a casual user is a shiny interface, rather then an empowering interface.

Generally, what I find saddening, is that these idea threads always seem to get a lot of a very emotional posts. This thread being the most constructive of the lot I have read, with more then couple posters giving proper arguments on the problems as well as on the most fitting approaches. The forum should have the thanks button for them because otherwise the negative posts can get too much value in the readers minds. I would think that overall, the experience of the seasoned users would be better used on guiding the new people/future developers on how to best complement the system with new and friendlier tools. Regardless of the interface style. I'm looking at adduser() as an example. It is a dumbed down and good interface to add users, yet there is the pw() as a full control interface.


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## kpedersen (Feb 13, 2014)

I do admit that when FreeBSD's popularity does rise it is going to be very hard for the developers (and community) to decide on which features to include from all the many, many requests and patches.
This may sound draconian but where I believe the line should be drawn (and likely will be with FreeBSD) is directly behind requests from Administrators and Developers. My reasoning for this is because the requirements of casual users change too much with the drunken sway of social computing trends of the current day (Just look at how even the mighty consistent Windows UI has been crippled with this recent tablet fad).



			
				naali said:
			
		

> I'm looking at adduser() as an example. It is a dumbed down and good interface to add users, yet there is the pw() as a full control interface.



This is a good example. I use adduser() because it is indeed simpler. However, if this traditionally UNIX util was dramatically changed or got replaced entirely... I would swiftly switch to using (probably scripting around) pw() directly (and accept the steeper learning curve proving that I am not averse to change) rather than play catch up with whatever trendy replacement it was given.

To clarify, I am really not afraid of change. Otherwise I would never have migrated away from Windows all those years ago. What I do not appreciate though is this recent trend of "trying things out because we think experimental == modern " which is plaguing the open-source world recently.
I am happy to miss out on cool features if it avoids any breakages in existing software, documentation or workflow.


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## FreeDomBSD (Jun 19, 2014)

CreativeGPX said:
			
		

> To make the OS more widely appealing requires more volunteer-hours than the community has. To get more volunteer-hours for the community requires the OS being more widely appealing. It's a circular problem which is broken when some new developer comes along and starts a usability team.




So how does someone who doesn't program, but understands programming very well start a usability team? Because we need one.


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## kpa (Jun 19, 2014)

FreeDomBSD said:
			
		

> CreativeGPX said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You just start it. Emphasis on you. Don't fall into a trap of thinking that development of FreeBSD is centralized and you have to ask the powers that be if you can do something. Just do it and make your work available to others.

As for the work you would be doing, I would say that it would be mostly documenting what (and possibly why) is not working very well or is hard to use in the existing base FreeBSD and the add-on desktop environments and to write the evaluation documents based on the gathered information. You'd have to be decent technical writer and know what is a good bug report.


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## jb_fvwm2 (Jun 19, 2014)

Every day, I conjecture to myself, more would discover and use FreeBSD if someone cobbled together an installation and use flowchart, asterisked to enterprise uses in the margins maybe, similar to those quickstart 8-pane foldouts one obtains when purchasing printers,  routers, etc.  This from receiving similar materials within shareware packets back before the days of common Windows usage... as well as wishing for the same in wide usage, say one for Zfs, so one would not have to skim through forum (not this one, in this context) posts asking questions one might have already have answered from a PDF printout...  If one has read this far, one might surmise that one for Wireless networking would be welcomed by many, more directly relevant to the title of this thread, if not its purpose.


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## bsdkeith (Jun 19, 2014)

Going back to the original idea, I would agree that having some 'tool' to make setting up network connections would be a nice addition, even to the 'base'.
It wouldn't need to be a big GUI tool, but would need all necessary options to be asked for & then set up for the less experienced user. I think a curses based script may be adequate, as it wouldnt be used often by most people, & those that did need it regularly would come to know it intimatedly. As has been mentioned before, it would be just as easy to run under a GUI via an xterm.


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## kpedersen (Jun 20, 2014)

jb_fvwm2 said:
			
		

> Every day, I conjecture to myself, more would discover and use FreeBSD if someone cobbled together an installation and use flowchart.



You might well be onto a good idea here. After all, unlike Linux, FreeBSD does have stable workflows and unless Launchd, Wayland and other massive breakages start to slip through, this kind of documentation would remain relevent, up-to-date and worthwhile.

Now we just need to find someone with a passion for this kind of documentation


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## ericbsd (Jun 20, 2014)

Hi,

I have start to write a network manager based on the idea of Linux's Network Manger written in Python and GTK. It is for GhostBSD, but when it will be fully functional I will make a FreeBSD port for it. If anyone is interested in it, here is the project: GitHub https://github.com/GhostBSD/networkmgr and every one is welcome to help.


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## AHR Inc (Mar 28, 2016)

Wi-Fi utilities including wired networks shouldn't take much resources since similar applications are already working in mobile devices such as iPhone and all sorts of droids or tablets. The base code should be accepting command language as pure bsd for those do not need a GUI. Nevertheless the base app should be easily adapted to work under a GUI for further inclusion into desktops.

Any design or architecture on Wi-Fi utilities including wired networks should start with assuring Mobility while wired network is using only the discovery part to end into a Gate. Such starting point is to invoke a session based on which Mobility Connection is even achieved while moving from one point to another.  Since the “Mobility Connection Session” is based on DHCP the wired network will very easy take advantage of such same session used in mobility called Discovery (DHCP and/or DNS implementation). The Property of such connection as we know can be further edited by user.

Reading: https://books.google.com/books?id=y...maintaining a connection while moving&f=false


Some thoughts on coding (not necessary complete but good enough to influence):

Discovery Function (M,W) to achieve best network discovery accepting user input of either mobile(M) or wired(W); Returns a list/array (every item in the list contains Property as another array of data pertinent to connecting including if required a prompt for user/pass or if it is a session based connection which may include credentials) – The M-Discovery may be static or “ongoing”. The later meaning is looking for next connection. But the next connection may be in a direction predicted by GPS or relay detection part of a network… and so on as much our minds can cover. – Of course this function only creates temporary items that are deleted if not selected. – Discovery also means what works for your adaptor among the findings. “The adaptor compatibility issues” but that shouldn’t stop us to at least see the case listed in gray and saved in a temp database for further process – this phrase calls for an intermediary function that will further filter results based on internal adaptor(s) and so the discovery part is dissected into a network analyzer of available networks that further are filtered if compatible with the adaptor(s) .

Connector Function (Process Selected Item from Discovery Function) returns a configuration e.g. adapter settings available for user editing. This function should have a section to auto-manage temporary adapter settings stored in a default directory. “Creating and saving a network connection is not necessary forever” – may allow a history of 30 days depth and last three if any are not deleted.

The GUI part (create new, edit/delete existing) would use the (a) Discovery Function to show a list of available or potential connection and should user select any listed items will then; (b) process in background the Connector Function then to: (c) screening a particular folder (where “Connector Function” stores its adapter configurations); make active, and create a list based on which user can further edit Properties of the stored Items.

REM: old ports may not apply all standards of discovery have been implemented recently. Imperative that is, to rewrite the whole code and only get inspired by what was done before in old ports.

Key Notes: Network Discovery, Network Analyzer, Network Adaptors

Hope it will help someone. -- AHR 20160327


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## zspider (Mar 28, 2016)

kpedersen said:


> You might well be onto a good idea here. After all, unlike Linux, FreeBSD does have stable workflows and unless Launchd, Wayland and other massive breakages start to slip through, this kind of documentation would remain relevent, up-to-date and worthwhile.
> 
> Now we just need to find someone with a passion for this kind of documentation



Be careful what you wish for. People tried to do the same thing for Linux and although well intentioned, it didn't go the way they thought it would.


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## AHR Inc (Apr 1, 2016)

Cthulhux: "Be careful what you wish for"
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/44211/page-4

Plain and simple -- I am only trying to solve problems as I am running into -- nothing more.

Apparently I could see ramifications based on my writing but please believe me I had no idea what Berkeley Packet Filter is doing before the writing.

... and the beginning is posted up here:
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/55651/

... and you can replicate as much as one can wish, while me I am just becoming familiar with FreeBSD forum.
... Yeah I am getting too much help …


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## AHR Inc (Apr 1, 2016)

Well, if I scratch my mind I could say two big words: INVENTORY and RETOOLING! – There is nothing wrong in serving desktops while the black screen is available. 

And, lets not forget what free….(BSD) means: FREEDOM!


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## zspider (Apr 1, 2016)

AHR Inc said:


> @ Cthulhux: "Be careful what you wish for"
> https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/44211/page-4



Was there something wrong with what he said? I'm not seeing it.


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## AHR Inc (Apr 2, 2016)

Nope, noting wrong – it is just a matter of speech and of course mood!


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