# Linux systemd-homed



## gpw928 (May 3, 2020)

TechRepublic has an overview of the functions provided by systemd-homed which facilitates portable home directories in systemd 245.

Apparently homed does not yet work with ssh logins (home directories are encrypted until you have logged in so the private keys in ~/.ssh are inaccessible during login).

I also wonder how it will integrate with a variety centrally managed (typically Kerberos based) authentication methods favoured by large enterprises (typical Redhat customers).

I have never seen portable home directories as a big issue to manage, especially with repositories becoming ever more popular.

It really does make you wonder how much territory Leannart wants to own...  and when he will stop "adding value"...


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## ctaranotte (May 3, 2020)

Syncthing does the job as far as I am concerned.

Yet another unreal problem answered.

EDIT: syncing kernel, base, userland or installed packages across a high number of servers would have answered a real problem.


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## Crivens (May 3, 2020)

Oookay. Here we go again. Good thing I stockpiled on fire extinguishers, 'cause this is a flaming topic.

And the next value to add is bleedin' obvious: ssh. Somehow this mess with local ssh keys must be solved, managed, centralized. How dare user have them?

Okay, I'll go and have my first coffee of the day.


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## ralphbsz (May 3, 2020)

I'll be contrarian: It's actually a solution to a whole host of problems that a stock Unix (Linux, *BSD, Solaris, ...) install does not solve. For example: Secure the content of the user's data while they are not logged in by encrypting it. Or make it possible for a user to take their home directory with them to a different machine. Or make it accessible from multiple machines. And it centralizes /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow into a single file (also a good thing).

And it also creates a huge host of problems. How do you deal with multiple users being in a group, and having permission to read (or even write) each others files? Even when the other guy is not logged in? How do you backup a home directory, if it is encrypted much of the time? How do you deal with loss of the key server that's inherent in using LUKS (great new DoS attack and failure mode)? When a user moves their home directory from one place to another, how do you prevent inconsistent changes in the two different places? That's a problem that neither Coda nor AFS were ever able to solve.

And for each of the problems that this solves, there are already better solutions. Encrypting file systems, and encrypting disk hardware. Shared and cluster file systems, for data portability (with correct semantics for parallel access). Authentication management systems that solve the bifurcation between /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow, and so on and so on.

And in a tightly managed corporate environment, this whole thing just doesn't work. If an engineer in a big corporation takes his whole home directory and puts it on a USB stick, they will probably be fired on the spot, for violating a security policy. Long before they have time to plug that USB stick into a second computer. This while thing is one out-of-control software engineer trying to solve his little personal problem and his personal beef with systems, without thinking things through.

By the way, I love this completely ludicrous statement from the techrepublic article:


> Prior to systemd every system and resource was managed by its own tool, which was clumsy and inefficient. Now? Controlling and managing systems on Linux is incredibly easy.


Nonsense. It is exactly as hard as it was before. The only thing that systemd has accomplished is to move things around. Everything is in a different place, and has a different name. Certainly things are more centralized ... but before they also had naming conventions. A lot more configuring and administering is done by commands, rather than by editing config files; that is cosmetics, which doesn't change the fact that they still need to be configured and administered. And more importantly, the configuration and administration still needs to be thought through, which is the hard task.

There are other gems in the techrepublic article which demonstrate that the author has no clue (like: putting the /home directories on a different partition or disk drive for data durability? when the OS self-destructs? thats's ridiculous).


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## Crivens (May 3, 2020)

ralphbsz said:


> There are other gems in the techrepublic article which demonstrate that the author has no clue (like: putting the /home directories on a different partition or disk drive for data durability? when the OS self-destructs? thats's ridiculous).


... or maybe he is a seasoned linux user? I had systems self destruct, but that was around 1.x about. Maybe he prefers one disk per user, so write access does not count against the OS on it's SSD? Or he has no clue? Time will tell.


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## kpedersen (May 3, 2020)

Crivens said:


> Somehow this mess with local ssh keys must be solved, managed, centralized. How dare user have them?



The average Linux user these days doesn't know what an SSH key is. Perhaps it *is* best if someone more "capable" handles them for them.

... a generation script on first login. Screw systemd-homed XD


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## wolffnx (May 3, 2020)

I'just love it, and always entertainment me..what this boys do,
the solution es easy, drop away ssh and create a new one , "sysdSsh"


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## drhowarddrfine (May 3, 2020)

kpedersen said:


> The average Linux user these days doesn't know what an SSH key is.


The _average_ Linux user is a 15-year old Windows user who switched cause all his friends said it was so cool to do so and he wanted to be just like his friends. When he finds out he can no longer play his games (which is the only reason he even owns a computer) he jumps on a reddit forum and tried to figure out dual booting. After minutes--sometimes hours--of struggling with that, he formats his whole system and is back on Windows.


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## PMc (May 3, 2020)

ralphbsz said:


> I'll be contrarian: It's actually a solution to a whole host of problems that a stock Unix (Linux, *BSD, Solaris, ...) install does not solve. For example: Secure the content of the user's data while they are not logged in by encrypting it. Or make it possible for a user to take their home directory with them to a different machine. Or make it accessible from multiple machines. And it centralizes /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow into a single file (also a good thing).



Didn't we have that already, with DCE/DFS? 

No matter how far or how well-functioning that thing happened to be, from the architectural viewpoint it did address precisely the four basic tasks _any_ OS is there to solve (file-, task-, user- and time-management) and put exactly these on a distributed scale. Seen that way, this was a very correct approach.
But then IBM and OpenGroup hosed it (probably due to not even fully understanding what they had there), and what we have now is a chaotic hay-wire of individual solutions.


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## mark_j (May 3, 2020)

Is it not also the case that systemD(umb) enforces the rule that users can't have anything running once they log out? So I guess this fits wonderfully. No more 'screen' processes hiding in the background you naughty users. SystemD's mantra surely is 'we know best how to run YOUR system.'

I also guess gnu has no concept of rbac because this would destroy it.

Finally, perhaps the answer to ssh is to not use it and invent a new swag of programs, probably called systemD-telnet or better still systemD-rlogin. LOL. 

Oh and excuse my ignorance but what happens if I as administrator need to access a user's directory to obtain a file they've supposed to have emailed to management but forgot before heading off on their 3 week tour of the Himalayas?


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## Jose (May 3, 2020)

kpedersen said:


> The average Linux user these days doesn't know what an SSH key is. Perhaps it *is* best if someone more "capable" handles them for them.


Did this happen to you? Ask everyone to generate a key pair and send you the public key. How many private keys did you get? I paraphrase my boss' email on the subject "Send me you PUBLIC key. It ends in .pub. I will delete any private keys sent to me, and you'll have to generate a new key pair."


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## memreflect (May 4, 2020)

mark_j said:


> Oh and excuse my ignorance but what happens if I as administrator need to access a user's directory to obtain a file they've supposed to have emailed to management but forgot before heading off on their 3 week tour of the Himalayas?


As I understand it, you as the administrator create the home directory container in the first place, and these containers allow for multiple LUKS keys to decrypt them, which means there'd be one or more admin/staff keys associated with home directories as well as the user's own key.  I had the same question when I first read the article, and that was the conclusion I came to after some light research.


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## mark_j (May 4, 2020)

memreflect said:


> As I understand it, you as the administrator create the home directory container in the first place, and these containers allow for multiple LUKS keys to decrypt them, which means there'd be one or more admin/staff keys associated with home directories as well as the user's own key.  I had the same question when I first read the article, and that was the conclusion I came to after some light research.



Thank you for that.
So, then the big question for me is: What's the purpose of encryption? If others hold a key to your data then you might as well not encrypt, surely? Or am I missing something?

Perhaps systemD boffins don't trust login credentials, file permissions, user groups, MAC, RBAC, ACLs and so on to protect a user's data? But then, hey a hacker could get root and unlock your user directories anyway. Oh no!!

My oh my, what a non-problem this software solves. Anyway, it's gnu/linux, once the issues count gets down to 400, they'll deem it obsolete and re-write it anyway, with even more bold, new ideas. Hilarious.


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## memreflect (May 4, 2020)

mark_j said:


> So, then the big question for me is: What's the purpose of encryption? If others hold a key to your data then you might as well not encrypt, surely? Or am I missing something?


That's a good question: Official(?) docs for systemd-homed/homectl.

It doesn't explain the reason for encryption in the first place in the "Storage Mechanism: luks Home Directories" section.  That said, it also allows for other "storage mechanisms".  It sounds like a mess, but maybe we're all wrong, and it will actually be less convoluted than we think?


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## ralphbsz (May 4, 2020)

pyret said:


> Defense Information Systems Agency STIGs require USB storage devices to be disabled.  Worked for DoD for two years and went through STIG reviews.


Same with big computer corporations. I know that if you insert a USB storage device into a corporate laptop of a certain big employer, it will (a) not work, and (b) you and your manager get an e-mail about a minute later, reminding you of security policies.


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## suntzu00 (May 4, 2020)

maybe the SSH thing can be solved with signed certificates. that way ssh won't have to read what's in ~/.ssh/{.pub file} .


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## kpedersen (May 4, 2020)

Jose said:


> Did this happen to you? Ask everyone to generate a key pair and send you the public key. How many private keys did you get? I paraphrase my boss' email on the subject "Send me you PUBLIC key. It ends in .pub. I will delete any private keys sent to me, and you'll have to generate a new key pair."



Haha. I didn't even get that far. Where I used to work, in the end I had to write a silly GUI tool for the other developers to use to generate their keys for version control. They would refuse to use a command line (Contrary to popular belief, Windows game developers are not the most worldly bunch when it comes to technology). So I had it send back to me their public keys.

This is something that shouldn't need to have been written


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## Jose (May 4, 2020)

kpedersen said:


> Haha. I didn't even get that far. Where I used to work, in the end I had to write a silly GUI tool for the other developers to use to generate their keys for version control. They would refuse to use a command line (Contrary to popular belief, Windows game developers are not the most worldly bunch when it comes to technology).


Oh, I know. One of the most bittersweet memories of my career involves a middle-aged Windows developer who was very upset that Winzip wouldn't work on the Mac we were making him use.

Most folks told him to use the functionality built-in to Finder and ignored him, but I decided to try and help him 'cause I'm stupid like that.  Turns out he was using Winzip to sort his dev tree by age and thus figuring out which files he had modified. I told him "all you need is git status. Try it." He grumbled something and wandered off. Later he came back to my desk and said "Jose that is amazing! That is exactly what I need! Thank you so much!"

Sweet because of how much time and effort I just saved him. Bitter because I wondered where the Hell he'd been working all his career. I know cvs has a "status" command. I suspect rcs does too, but I only used it briefly and a long time ago. Are  there software shops out there that still don't use VCS? I kinda don't want to know the answer.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jul 16, 2021)

gpw928 said:


> … portable home directories …



… were great, with Mac OS X, which I no longer use.



mark_j said:


> … If others hold a key to your data then you might as well not encrypt, …



Not everyone holds the key. 

Whilst I work for an organisation, the organisation might hold a key for use in exceptional circumstances. Like, me kicking the bucket.



memreflect said:


> systemd-homed/homectl



Some discussion including links to talks with Q&A: https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/f23jht/-/


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## Jose (Jul 16, 2021)

grahamperrin said:


> Some discussion including links to talks with Q&A: https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/f23jht/-/


Talk is unironically titled "Reinventing Home Directories". There's another thing people often reinvent unnecessarily...


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## cynwulf (Jul 16, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> The _average_ Linux user is a 15-year old Windows user who switched cause all his friends said it was so cool to do so and he wanted to be just like his friends. When he finds out he can no longer play his games (which is the only reason he even owns a computer) he jumps on a reddit forum and tried to figure out dual booting. After minutes--sometimes hours--of struggling with that, he formats his whole system and is back on Windows.


That was cruel...  well, true but cruel...


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## gpw928 (Jul 17, 2021)

cynwulf said:


> That [The average Linux user is a 15-year old Windows user] was cruel...  well, true but cruel...


Au contraire.  Maybe cruel, but certainly not true. IBM paid $34 billion for RedHat. Their target was not 15 year old teenagers...

I don't work in IT any longer, but at the last place I did work, I helped retire a large fleet of Solaris systems, and replace (most of) them with Red Hat Linux virtual machines.

It's a common theme (and usually linked to cloud deployment options).


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## ralphbsz (Jul 17, 2021)

Not true. Only a small fraction of all computers (*) in the world are desktop/laptop machines, the vast majority of them sit in data centers. One of the cloud-scale hosters (the FAANG plus their Chinese equivalents) probably has more computers in their data centers than all of the world's laptop/desktop machines. Of the data-center machines, the vast majority are Linux (with a small fraction of Windows, and a vanishing fraction of other OSes, such as zOS = MVS + VM, AIX, Solaris, ...). Of the desktop/laptop machines, the vast majority are Windows, followed by Chrome, MacOS, with a tiny fraction (perhaps a few percent) being Linux. And that's before we start counting the many VMs in data centers.

Linux usage is completely dominated by data center.

(*) Footnote: When I say "computer", I mean something on which you can run programs, and that has a full-function OS, so I exclude deeply embedded IoT devices, and handhelds. Something you can typically get a shell on.


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## datasmurf (Jul 17, 2021)

> ...stored within the LUKS header to that stored in the ./identity folder.



Ok, "Folder" - then you know who the target audience is... 
Closed Tab.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 17, 2021)

My original tongue-in-cheek reply was to the comment about the average Linux user not knowing what a ssh key is. It's also true of users who call directories "folders".


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## kpedersen (Jul 17, 2021)

ralphbsz said:


> and a vanishing fraction of other OSes


How do you think BSD sits in there? ~50% of that vanishing fraction?
We are the kings of the little garden pond 



ralphbsz said:


> Of the desktop/laptop machines, the vast majority are Windows, followed by Chrome, MacOS, with a tiny fraction (perhaps a few percent) being Linux.


I was thinking about this the other day. Based on the stack overflow JetBrains surveys (so possibly web development oriented) Linux represented around 50% of the development machines.

Now what I do find strange is that Windows and macOS machines have greatly reduced because many consumers now prefer their phones and tablets (Android, macOS, Chromebooks doing most things online) and yet the Linux market share hasn't seemed to increase in percentage at all? Something doesn't quite add up. Since Linux is quite well received with developers and since only developers tend to use "proper" computers these days, surely we should see higher values. It can't just be Windows gamers pushing it down, surely?


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 17, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> Based on the stack overflow surveys (so possibly web development oriented) Linux represented around 50% of the development machines.


I'm pretty sure the last survey I saw said over 50% were on Windows. 

And don't call me Shirley.


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## kpedersen (Jul 17, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> I'm pretty sure the last survey I saw said over 50% were on Windows.


Hmm, it turns out it was JetBrains: https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2021/

47% Linux, 61% Windows so obviously respondents could select more than one.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 17, 2021)

kpedersen I meant the Stack Overflow survey


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## kpedersen (Jul 17, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> kpedersen I meant the Stack Overflow survey



Yeah, it is a high proportion there too. They can't all be running Windows just to test it out on IE6!


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## ralphbsz (Jul 17, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> How do you think BSD sits in there? ~50% of that vanishing fraction?


BSD in the data center: A very tiny fraction. Why? The data center market is dominated by a handful of hyper-scalers, the FAANG (which is a misnomer, Amazon/Google/Microsoft have way more compute power than Facebook, Apple and Netflix, and it misses the Chinese counterparts). Of those, only Netflix uses BSD for a part of their workload, all others are either exclusively Linux, or a mix of Windows and Linux (Microsoft).

BSD on the desktop: Of the already small fraction of Unix desktop machines, the BSDs are a tiny fraction.



> Based on the stack overflow JetBrains surveys (so possibly web development oriented) Linux represented around 50% of the development machines.


Among software and web developers, that might be right within an order of magnitude. Clearly, a very large fraction of all Unix desktop machines are among computer professionals. Now, my observations among friends and colleagues don't agree with that statistic, I would say that today the distribution is roughly Mac, Chrome, Linux, Windows, in that order, among software engineers (people who get paid to develop software).



> Since Linux is quite well received with developers and since only developers tend to use "proper" computers these days, surely we should see higher values.


No, the bulk of all desktop machines (most of which are by the way laptops!) is still in use by people who are not professional software developers. Nearly every college student has one, and in developed countries most school children; nearly every employee with a desk job has one at work, and that includes secretaries, purchasing, finance, HR, mechanical engineers, and so on. Many elderly people (over 40!) have one, because the bigger screens are more ergonomic than cell phones. Where you are right: The total number of mobiles (cell phones, with a few tablets) far exceeds the number of desktops (+laptops). There are two factors in that: first, in developed countries nearly every human has a mobile, sometimes two (one for home, one paid by the employer for work). Second, in developing countries, many people have only a mobile and can't afford a computer, nor do they have the infrastructure to us one. In the tech world, we refer to those mobile-only as "the next billion users".

Compared to the many billions of people with cell phones, and the ~billion people with a laptop/desktop, the professional software people and high-end gamers are a tiny market: millions and millions.


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## gpw928 (Jul 18, 2021)

ralphbsz said:


> Clearly, a very large fraction of all Unix desktop machines are among computer professionals.


Agreed.  However, my experience in the corporate sector is that the desire to standardise on the Windows desktop is stronger than ever. The monoculture leads to simplified service management.

It's also gotten easier to enforce, because the advent of Hyper-V means that software professionals may conveniently spin up as many test/development Linux machines on their Windows desktop as they want.

[Monocultures do have some disadvantages, as their susceptibility to 100% loss from viral infections is as problematic with Italian poplar plantations as it is with PC desktops.]


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## mark_j (Jul 18, 2021)

drhowarddrfine 
I would hazard a guess more systemd/Linux users come to using it via the GUI and there the directory is presented as folders to make them feel comfortable in their transition from Windows (or, shock-horror, MacOS).
I see systemd/linux users as a little more "tech-savvy" than your average MS Windows user but a lot less tech-savvy the the average *BSD user. Let's not confront them with nomenclature like "directories"!


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 18, 2021)

mark_j said:


> Let's not confront them with nomenclature like "directories"!


That would mean using the wrong terminology and that would be a disservice. Never use wrong terms to explain things to people who don't know what they're talking about. No excuses for doing that.


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## cynwulf (Jul 18, 2021)

My tongue in cheek reply to a tongue in cheek reply, was perhaps lost in translation... serves me right I suppose.

For the record: I don't for one second believe that Linux is a teenager's hobby OS.

systemd is unfortunately here to stay.  I wrote my first unit files in the last few months, don't find it intuitive at all. Documentation isn't great either - as with everything Linux related. You'd think that as they put something together resembling a Windows ini file, that they would be able to produce clear documentation, with examples...  instead I found myself trawling through stackexchange, etc, stabbing in the dark and eventually working it out for myself. It's now running merrily (for now) in an Ubuntu VM running on Azure.




gpw928 said:


> Au contraire.  Maybe cruel, but certainly not true. IBM paid $34 billion for RedHat. Their target was not 15 year old teenagers...


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## bsduck (Jul 19, 2021)

datasmurf said:


> Ok, "Folder" - then you know who the target audience is...
> Closed Tab.





drhowarddrfine said:


> My original tongue-in-cheek reply was to the comment about the average Linux user not knowing what a ssh key is. It's also true of users who call directories "folders".



I don't think you can judge someone's knowledge from the word he/she uses for a particular thing.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 19, 2021)

You can get a sense of it when they use the wrong terminology.


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## bsduck (Jul 19, 2021)

I don't see why folder would be more wrong than directory, I see both terms as synonyms and use them interchangeably, maybe because I'm not native in English, I don't know. In both cases the meaning is obvious, I don't think anyone thinks of a folder as a machine used to fold booklets when talking about computers.









						folder - Wiktionary
					






					en.wiktionary.org
				





> An organizer that papers are kept in, usually with an index tab, to be stored as a single unit in a filing cabinet.
> _I keep all my schoolwork in a yellow *folder*._
> (computing) A virtual container in a computer's file system, in which files and other folders may be stored. The files and subfolders in a folder are usually related.
> Synonym: directory
> ...


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 19, 2021)

bsduck
What is the difference between a folder and a directory?

This is not the more informed and better, more descriptive answer I saved somewhere, and I usually forget all the things I had to say about it at one time, but it will do for now.



> There is a difference between a directory, which is a file system concept, and the graphical user interface metaphor that is used to represent it (a folder). For example, Microsoft Windows uses the concept of special folders to help present the contents of the computer to the user in a fairly consistent way that frees the user from having to deal with absolute directory paths, which can vary between versions of Windows, and between individual installations. ...
> 
> If one is referring to a container of documents, the term folder is more appropriate. The term directory refers to the way a structured list of document files and folders is stored on the computer. The distinction can be due to the way a directory is accessed; on Unix systems, /usr/bin/ is usually referred to as a directory when viewed in a command line console, but if accessed through a graphical file manager, users may sometimes call it a folder.



A directory often--or should--contain an index file. A folder never has one. A directory is a path. A folder is a container.


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## datasmurf (Jul 26, 2021)

bsduck said:


> I don't think you can judge someone's knowledge from the word he/she uses for a particular thing.



Yes, I can and I do. It's the same for calling the "Web (WWW)" the "Internet" - it's just plain wrong. 

If I were working on construction, factory or a kitchen for example. I would also need to call the Tools, Technique and Machinery by their proper name.

Besides all that - in our present time - using the correct language, wording and pronouns seems so important 
to all sorts of netizens, this falls all to short that I feel mocked and embarrassed when I read "folder" in a manpage. 

And English is not my native language, nor do I have some sort of official education in CS.


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## recluce (Jul 30, 2021)

Next step on Poettering's agenda: systemd-kerneld, to do away with that pesky Linux kernel.

Just joking, I hope....


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## datasmurf (Jul 30, 2021)

recluce said:


> Next step on Poettering's agenda: systemd-kerneld, to do away with that pesky Linux kernel.
> 
> Just joking, I hope....



RFC: new "systemd-sysupdate"
Source:  Tweet


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## mark_j (Jul 31, 2021)

datasmurf said:


> RFC: new "systemd-sysupdate"
> Source:  Tweet


I guess it's pleasing to see the systemd/gnu/linux crew finally see merit in the *BSD way of doing things (though I am sure the rabid linux fanboys will deny this).
It's inevitable that their next major step is the replacement of userland with redhat-owned ones to complete the homologation.


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## mark_j (Jul 31, 2021)

recluce said:


> Next step on Poettering's agenda: systemd-kerneld, to do away with that pesky Linux kernel.
> 
> Just joking, I hope....


They could steal Fuscia OS and put it under the gpl...?


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## sidetone (Jul 31, 2021)

mark_j said:


> I guess it's pleasing to see the systemd/gnu/linux crew finally see merit in the *BSD way of doing things (though I am sure the rabid linux fanboys will deny this).
> It's inevitable that their next major step is the replacement of userland with redhat-owned ones to complete the homologation.


We should focus on what we do. Not worry about other OS' following. Minimal interference from their way of doing things would be nice. Apart from the software, there's reluctance to make things better and get away from that interference, because not everyone sees it in their mind, how things can be kept simple yet even be better functioning and have more ability. If things move in a forked direction, for those who agree, I hope that interference doesn't try to discourage it.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 31, 2021)

datasmurf said:


> RFC: new "systemd-sysupdate"
> Source:  Tweet


Wait. Is that a fix for a fix or a tool for a tool? Or is it a fix for a tool?


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 31, 2021)

sidetone said:


> We should focus on what we do. Not worry about other OS' following.


Absolutely! If we needed X we'd get X for ourselves. Saying we need X cause someone else has it is either a popularity contest or envy.


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## eternal_noob (Jul 31, 2021)

I am a pacifist but everytime i read about systemd or Poettering i want to punch things.


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## mer (Jul 31, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Absolutely! If we needed X we'd get X for ourselves. Saying we need X cause someone else has it is either a popularity contest or envy.


I assume you're using "X" as a generic application/package/feature name and not "X" as in "X.org?


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 31, 2021)

mer Yes and I thought someone might misinterpret that.


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