# lenovo thinkpad amd versus intel



## mitchreward (Oct 29, 2022)

Hello,

I'm about to replace my very old laptop 9years, and thinking about buying a lenovo thinkpad e14 gen4 which is based on amd platform. Amd rysen + integrated mobile radeon.
Any major issue with AMD platforms regarding drivers ? hdmi output ?

I'm now since years with intel and I'd like to give it a try with amd. but little bit affraid of good hardware support on freebi 13.

any feedback ? 
Technical facts only please, no religious war intel vs amd 


thanks guy


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 29, 2022)

As long you have one of these , you are good.


			Graphics/AMD-GPU-Matrix - FreeBSD Wiki


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## T-Daemon (Oct 29, 2022)

mitchreward said:


> Any major issue with AMD platforms regarding drivers ? hdmi output ?


For several months I have on a  ThinkPad E15 Gen3 AMD 13.1-RELEASE running.

One major issue I experience with it is CPU Max Boost is not available.

The CPU is a Zen 2 based Lucienne AMD Ryzen 7 5700U 1.8 GHz, 8 cores/16 threads, CPU Max Boost is up to 4.30 GHz. Despite trying many sysctl(8) or powerd(8) settings the CPU does not increase the frequency beyond 1.8 GHz.

It's no joy building from ports, it takes ages to build heavy ports. Not a problem for me though, I use packages anyway.

The CPU shows better performance when building system from source (which I do often), here the 16 threads have their advantage. In a fresh populated /usr/src (or after a 'cleanworld') 'buildworld' takes ~ 10 minutes with `make -j16`, 'buildkernel' ~ 2 minutes. After the first build, WITH_META_MODE about 1/5 of the time.

Working hardware:

Accelerated graphics, suspend/resume, display backlight, HDMI, HDMI sound, all with graphics/drm-kmod, sound (build-in speakers, headphones) without any configuration, touchpad, TrackPoint.

Not working hardware:

Wifi, RealTek RTL8852AE, with rtw89 driver on stable/13. The rtw89 is WIP, for now it does not work on machines with more than 4GB of physical memory, using for the time being a WiFi dongle.

Not tested:

Bluetooth, fingerprint reader.

Except the Max Boost issue I'm satisfied with this particular AMD CPU.

If Max Boost is important for you better ask on freebsd-hardware@ mailing list if the Zen 3 based 5[4,6,8]25U Barceló (2022 models) in the E14 Gen4 AMD do support this feature on FreeBSD. It's more likely to get an answer from FreeBSD developers there instead here in forums.


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## mitchreward (Oct 31, 2022)

Thank youfor detailled answer. 

I realized I misstyped it, it's a thinkpad e15 not e14.

T-Daemon how are you connecting to internet if no wifi ? only with RJ45 cable ?

it's annoying this cpu maxboost issue. Maybe I will go with intel, thinkpad e15 is available with intel or amd.


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## scottro (Oct 31, 2022)

I have an AMD T495. VIdeo, no problem, I installed kmod and I have kld_list="amdgpu" in /etc/rc.conf. But it was basically install X and the kmod and run startx. 
My wireless is Intel AC9260 and I believe that worked out of the box once I set up wireless.


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## mitchreward (Oct 31, 2022)

scottro said:


> I have an AMD T495. VIdeo, no problem, I installed kmod and I have kld_list="amdgpu" in /etc/rc.conf. But it was basically install X and the kmod and run startx.
> My wireless is Intel AC9260 and I believe that worked out of the box once I set up wireless.


which cpu is it exactly ?
Is AMD MaxBoost working ?


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## T-Daemon (Oct 31, 2022)

mitchreward said:


> _*T-Daemon*_ how are you connecting to internet if no wifi ? only with RJ45 cable ?


I'm using a (Samsung) WiFi dongle which I had lying around. Chipset is a Ralink RT2872, supported by the run(4) driver.

I had a look at the E15 Gen4 Intel, it's a fine laptop.

Browsing the specs, graphics (UHD [620 at least], Iris) looks supported by drm-kmod.

```
Integrated Intel® UHD graphics

Optional: Integrated Intel® Iris® Xe graphics
```

WiFi is supported by iwlwifi(4) starting from 13.1:

```
Optional: WiFi 6E Intel AX211 802.11AX  (2 x 2)

Optional: WiFi 6 Intel AX201 802.11AX  (2 x 2)
```



			WiFi/Iwlwifi - FreeBSD Wiki
		




			WiFi/Iwlwifi/Chipsets - FreeBSD Wiki
		




mitchreward said:


> it's annoying this cpu maxboost issue.


Yes, it's a shame, 4.3 GHz laying around but can't be accessed. I'm investigating further, maybe I haven't fond the right knobs to make it work. Under Linux Max Boost is supported ootb.


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## T-Daemon (Oct 31, 2022)

scottro said:


> I have an AMD T495.


Can you provide a link? I would be interested in all the specs.



mitchreward said:


> Is AMD MaxBoost working ?


scottro, I wanted to ask exactly the same question.


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## scottro (Oct 31, 2022)

I haven't tried maxboost.  I don't do too much with it, to be honest. Here's an Amazon link to what I bought. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SLGC476?psc=1

It came with Windows, and I think secure boot. I wiped Widows and installed a few versions of Linux and FreeBSD on a  ZFS partition, using patovm04's tutorial.









						[UEFI/GPT] [Dual-Boot] How to install FreeBSD (with ZFS) alongside another OS (sharing the same disk)
					

Important notes: 1) This tutorial assumes you have the OS you want to dual-boot with already installed on your drive, and that you already have freed up some disk space. Essentially, you will be installing FreeBSD with root-on-ZFS on the remaining free space of the disk, instead of using the...




					forums.freebsd.org
				




So, honestly, all I was concerned about were the video and wireless.

'


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## shkhln (Oct 31, 2022)

A have a Lenovo laptop with Ryzen 5500U and a MediaTek mt7whatever wi-fi chip. Those chips aren't currently supported by FreeBSD. There is a Linux-in-a-vm workaround, however it relies on PCI passthrough which is a bit iffy on this machine. It's only possible to use such a device _once_, it will be in some kind of broken state after VM shutdown. Thus suspending/sleeping breaks wi-fi.



T-Daemon said:


> The CPU is a Zen 2 based Lucienne AMD Ryzen 7 5700U 1.8 GHz, 8 cores/16 threads, CPU Max Boost is up to 4.30 GHz. Despite trying many sysctl(8) or powerd(8) settings the CPU does not increase the frequency beyond 1.8 GHz.


How exactly did you come to this conclusion?


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## PMc (Oct 31, 2022)

T-Daemon said:


> WiFi is supported by iwlwifi(4) starting from 13.1:
> 
> ```
> Optional: WiFi 6E Intel AX211 802.11AX  (2 x 2)
> ...


That one doesn't work (at least here):
I have that in my laptop, it's correct it is supported in 13.1, but it does a kernel crash at every ifconfig down/up. (bug #266887)


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## T-Daemon (Oct 31, 2022)

T-Daemon said:


> One major issue I experience with it is CPU Max Boost is not available.


I stand corrected, apparently I was mistaken, Max Boost is available.

I've been misled by the sysctl(8) output

```
dev.hwpstate.0.freq_settings: 1800/2193 1700/1615 1400/1277
dev.cpu.0.freq_levels: 1800/2193 1700/1615 1400/1277
dev.cpu.0.freq: 1800
```
I expected here a value of 1801 (1800 + 1 for Max Boost) and seeing only 1800 made me believe the maximum frequency is limited to 1.8 GHz.

After shkhln asking


shkhln said:


> How exactly did you come to this conclusion?


(thanks for asking by the way, I would have investigated further for some setting to enable Max Boost without realizing there is no need to), I searched a way to display the CPU frequency in real time, found a method in forums thread








						FreeBSD doesn't support cpu turboboost
					

CPU: CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1265L v3 @ 2.50GHz (2500.05-MHz K8-class CPU)  It is the latest bios, .. and in the bios it is reported as 3100 rather then 3700 however FreeBSD only supports upto 2501?




					forums.freebsd.org
				




```
# kldload pmc
# pmcstat -s unhalted-core-cycles -w 1 2>&1 | sed -E -e 1d -e 's/ {15}/ /g'

second terminal:

% yes > /dev/null
```

Well, obviously the CPU _IS_ running up to 4.3 GHz when necessary (excerpts):

```
1909367684
2434417863
3687124441
4333277815
4336594479
4330214354
```


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## T-Daemon (Oct 31, 2022)

PMc said:


> I have that in my laptop, it's correct it is supported in 13.1, but it does a kernel crash at every ifconfig down/up.


Ah, OK, found your PR 266887. Thanks for bringing it up. Looks like the driver isn't fully functional yet: PR's.


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## shkhln (Nov 2, 2022)

T-Daemon said:


> I searched a way to display the CPU frequency in real time, found a method in forums thread
> https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/freebsd-doesnt-support-cpu-turboboost.65842/post-467173
> 
> ```
> ...


You typically want sysutils/turbostat, although that port itself needs an update (crashes on some Ryzen CPUs). I also noticed `7z b` prints a rough frequency estimate without relying on any exotic APIs. Curious which technique it uses.


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## T-Daemon (Nov 3, 2022)

shkhln said:


> You typically want sysutils/turbostat, although that port itself needs an update (*crashes on some Ryzen CPUs*)


The 5700U can be added on the list. Program is core dumping.


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## cy@ (Nov 3, 2022)

I don't think it matters which vendor's hardware one uses anymore. My server systems have typically been AMD CPUs while my laptops have been Intel. This was initially because AMD was less expensive than Intel, and usually still is. However when Meltdown affected only Intel and not other vendors I had breathed a sigh of relief at the time. Having learned that AMD (and arm) also suffer similar but not as public row hammer vulnerabilities as Intel, YMMV regardless of the architecture.

The AMD and Intel CPU architectures have diverged over time. For example SYSCALL and SYSENTER. Both instructions do the same thing. Except that SYSCALL is implemented in AMD while SYSTENTER is an Intel instruction. (Probably because of patent issues.) This of course behooves the kernel (FreeBSD, Linux, Windows, etc.) to test which CPU it's running on (all kernels do this) and use the instruction available on the discovered CPU.

And, there are other minor differences that an assembler programmer might encounter but a compiler would simply handle for you.

For most if not all of us it becomes a matter of features and cost. For instance, I personally need a laptop with an ethernet interface, my home is wired with CAT6. I also want a laptop which I can easily replace the SSD or NVMe drive -- last one I looked at had an NVMe and a slot for a SATA hard disk/SSD, making my migration easy by simply swapping my current SSD into the new machine.

And the machine I had looked at had an accessible battery allowing for easier replacement. No sense sending a perfectly good laptop to e-junk when all that's needed is a $30-50 battery. (And replacing laptops is a total PITA too.)

I think one of the most important things a person should look at is graphic card support over CPU. Having said that, I think DRM2 may have better support for Intel than other chipsets.

The problem with laptops is they're complex. CPU support is easy. WiFi support is important and something that's still evolving. Graphics support also important. Wired support and a host of other things. I think anyone seriously shopping for a laptop should create a bootable USB stick with which to try when shopping around. This of course precludes buying a laptop online because you can't try before you buy, unless they have a 100% return guarantee.

I've been dreading shopping for a new laptop because it's such a PITA. There are no guarantees that even Linux will run on said laptop because vendors tend to overcome deficiencies using cobbled up Windows drivers to overcome deficient ACPI interfaces in firmware which require brand X Windows driver, and good luck with any other O/S.

I suggest posting a question on freebsd-mobile@ or freebsd-questions@.


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## smithi (Nov 3, 2022)

T-Daemon said:


> I stand corrected, apparently I was mistaken, Max Boost is available.
> 
> I've been misled by the sysctl(8) output
> 
> ...



Thanks for this.  Instead of a second terminal and 'yes' I ran in background
`# cpuset -l 2 stress -c 3 -t 120s &`
then in foreground
`# pmcstat -s unhalted-core-cycles -w 1`

So my 2.6GHz i5 Thinkpad T430s happily runs at 3.28GHz under load.

Unsurprisingly, odd numbered CPUs (i.e. threads) are shown running at the same speed as their even-numbered 'real' CPU.

Though perhaps interestingly the other CPU pair (here 0 and 1) show as running between about 790 and 870MHz, where lowest freq_level is 1200MHz.  I assume that's because there are plenty of *halted  * cycles on the CPU that's just reporting the stats, though all 4 'CPUs' s run 98.5% to 99.6% in C2 state, so hmm (?)

Oh yes: I'd had to kldload hwpmc as well, but pmc and pmcstat were in GENERIC on 12.3-RELEASE-p6[/I][/B]


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## PMc (Nov 4, 2022)

cy@ said:


> I've been dreading shopping for a new laptop because it's such a PITA.


Same here, and quite for the same reasons. I want standard hardware, I want a lot of standard connectors, I want it possible to disassemble (and ideally a repair manual). I prefer Intel cores (just because I'm used to). And I want it cheap. I don't need it super-powerful or super-slim or super-stylish.
So I tortured myself on travel with the smartphone only, because it's really disgusting idea to pay good money for something that then basically tells you that you should use windows on it.
Finally, along another mailorder, I hit an offer I couldn't resist. And up to now it seems I got it all, and a bit more...


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## astyle (Nov 5, 2022)

T-Daemon said:


> # kldload pmc


 There's a kernel module called PMc ??? TIL. Well, yeah, it actually stands for Performance Monitoring Counter (https://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy/projects/perf-measurement/)


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## smithi (Nov 5, 2022)

PMc said:


> Finally, along another mailorder, I hit an offer I couldn't resist. And up to now it seems I got it all, and a bit more...



Maybe I missed it, but what did you wind up getting?


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## PMc (Nov 6, 2022)

astyle said:


> There's a kernel module called PMc ??? TIL. Well, yeah, it actually stands for Performance Monitoring Counter (https://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy/projects/perf-measurement/)


Ahh, that's too bad, as I certainly have the older rights. I should indeed have got myself registered as a trademark, so I could now sue Intel.


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## PMc (Nov 6, 2022)

smithi said:


> Maybe I missed it, but what did you wind up getting?


Thanks for asking - that would be off-topic in this thread; it's not a Lenovo. 

I think I mentioned it somewhere here while fixing the minor issues with the peripherials - it's a Fujitsu A3511, with TigerLake i3-1115G4 chip 2/4 cores (that's already faster than my good old i5-3570T in the desktop), RJ11, cardreader, 3 or 4 USB jacks, HDMI internal screen (and nicely drives an external 4k), WD 250GB NVMe, apparently an empty internal bay for an extra SSD, and visibly an empty bay for a dvd - and that's it, no bells and whistles. And I paid 349€.
Downside: a bit bulky old-school design, and only about 5 hours on battery. And, the repair manual says, authorized personnel only or you loose the warranty (so no modding for now).

Suspend/resume gave me some riddles, and the touchpad needs a little patch to fully work, but that's all solveable. The intel AX201 WLAN repeated crashes are not to my liking, but there is work going on and I hope for the best (or I might start to really look into it myself). Otherwise, I'm searching for the "Pferdefuß" (how do you say? the hidden flaw), but I don't find it - maybe there is one but it's something I don't need?


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