# Just gotta LOVE git!



## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

Sometimes I'm still amazed. In PR 258182, the committer decided to squash my two suggested commits into a single one on `main`.

STILL, `git rebase` got it correct automatically!  

```
dropping 29ad89fd821d460862f727cc37b76b6f9692c81a devel/gsoap: remove old libressl-related changes -- patch contents already upstream
dropping e312460f6e3f80c9c65ea6cc0f94b77dfd5cddef devel/gsoap: add SSL path to CFLAGS and LDFLAGS -- patch contents already upstream
```

This is just awesome.


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## mrbeastie0x19 (Oct 1, 2021)

I was expecting some sarcastic post about how the switch from svn was the end of the world or something lol.


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## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

I see, you find lots of those comments here. Can't get my head around this. There's really not a single thing svn did better (but lots of things it did worse) 

(TBH, when I started using FreeBSD a good 5 years ago, I was pretty surprised to learn they still used svn…)


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## kpedersen (Oct 1, 2021)

Zirias said:


> I see, you find lots of those comments here. Can't get my head around this. There's really not a single thing svn did better (but lots of things it did worse)
> 
> (TBH, when I started using FreeBSD a good 5 years ago, I was pretty surprised to learn they still used svn…)


SVN was used because it was shiny and CVS was old hat (and even more of a pain)!

This ancient wiki page details the reason for SVN (https://wiki.freebsd.org/VCSWhy). It talks in such a way from when SVN was new and exciting 

Oddly I don't quite understand the reason for not CVS -> Git directly. Possibly it was too young in those days to commit to? Around then I only knew CVS and SVN. The other considerations:



> git:  written in C (*pro*, could be integrated into /usr/src - oh wait, we have to split up /usr/src, so its not a "pro" at all.)
> hg:   written in python (*con* - can't be integrated without bringing python too - also pro, theoretically more agile to develop (but why no partial checkouts if its that easy?))
> git:  attitude of developer(s) - (*con*, if git doesn't suit our model, then the only "right" solution is to change our model.  We can't expect help changing git to suit us)
> hg:   attitude of developers (*pro*, they seem very accomodating..)


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## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> to commit to


kind of funny in the (general) context


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## kpedersen (Oct 1, 2021)

Zirias said:


> kind of funny in the (general) context


Hah, I had just changed it to "jump to". But after your post I reverted it and going forward it is a formal intentional pun.


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## Jose (Oct 1, 2021)

Zirias said:


> I see, you find lots of those comments here. Can't get my head around this. There's really not a single thing svn did better (but lots of things it did worse)
> 
> (TBH, when I started using FreeBSD a good 5 years ago, I was pretty surprised to learn they still used svn…)


It's very hard to get used to Git if you've used any other SCM system for most of your career. Git stands a lot of the assumptions that are common in most SCMs on their head.

Git's command line interface (or "porcelain" as they call it) was clearly written by people for whom English is a second language. The "checkout" command, for example, does about 5 different things, and none of them corresponds to what "checkout" does in CVS or Svn.

There is no global source of truth in Git, and therefore no simple revision number you can point to as a reference for the source tree at a particular point. It's hard to get used to the distributed nature of Git when you've been working with centralized SCM systems.


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## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

Well yeah, using git is "different" than using svn. If that's the only complaint, I officially declare it invalid 

I'm really glad FreeBSD finally did this move. It makes my life as a (ports) contributor damn much easier


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## Jose (Oct 1, 2021)

Zirias said:


> I'm really glad FreeBSD finally did this move. It makes my life as a (ports) contributor damn much easier


Me too. I fully drank the Git Kool-aid almost a decade ago. Seriously, though, it is _*so*_ much better than anything else I've ever used. I'm willing to spend a fair amount of time helping others make the switch.


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## mer (Oct 1, 2021)

The best thing about git is:

git blame


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## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

I think the wording in this command is unnecessarily negative – although it was the same word in svn IIRC


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## Crivens (Oct 1, 2021)

Let's see who comes up with a politically correct version of such tools...


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## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

Crivens, you know, the "master" branch has already fallen for _that_. Sure, makes sense, cause a "master" in IT is directly connected to slavery, right? 

But about the `blame` subcommand, I'd really prefer a more neutral wording, like e.g. "attribute". Not for political correctnes. Just because you might use this tool for something other than "blame" a bug on some (poor) idiot who introduced it.


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## Jose (Oct 1, 2021)

CVS has an "annotate" command with a "blame" synonym. Svn went whole-hog and does blame, praise, and annotate.


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## zirias@ (Oct 1, 2021)

Don't ever let negative feelings creep up in your team  – so there's no alias for "blame" in git? 
But seriously, I don't care too much. Blame me for "my" bugs, that's perfectly ok


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## astyle (Oct 1, 2021)

I don't care too much about being politically correct in UNIX commands... `/bin/kill`, `git blame`, typos in `/bin/fsck`...  The guy who invented Git in the first place, he had to take a sensitivity training class! For me, things have to work, and logic has to add up to something sensible.

For me, the best part about  git is that it can be as simple or as fancy as you want it to be, and still remain reasonably consistent.


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## eternal_noob (Oct 1, 2021)

Zirias said:


> you know, the "master" branch has already fallen for _that_


The default branch name on Github is now "main" instead of "master". Does anyone know since when it changed?


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 1, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> I don't quite understand the reason for not CVS -> Git directly. Possibly it was too young in those days to commit to?


Was git even around then? I don't think so but I could be wrong. It's newness still might have been the issue.


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## astyle (Oct 1, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Was git even around then? I don't think so but I could be wrong. It's newness still might have been the issue.


Per Wikipedia, Git was first released in 2005, and FreeBSD moved from CVS to SVN in stages, starting in 2008, when Git was around v. 1.6.  Yeah, the newness of Git might have been an issue back then, I agree.


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## Cthulhux (Oct 1, 2021)

I still prefer SCCS and SVN over Git. Thank you.


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## astyle (Oct 1, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> I still prefer SCCS and SVN over Git. Thank you.


Well, at some point, knowing Git is a requirement for participating in large-scale programming projects like FreeBSD, KDE, Linux, Apache, you name it.  FWIW, Apache is not developing SVN any more. More info on Wikipedia.


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

Well, knowing other VCSs is a requirement for participating in my projects.


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 2, 2021)

I have to say that git might be a bit of jumping on the bandwagon. Using git because Linux did and no other reason. There are still detractors who have a point. The only reason I started using it, years ago, is cause I had a project that required it and they only started using it because...because....errrr...uh...they don't know.


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## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> I have to say that git might be a bit of jumping on the bandwagon. Using git because Linux did and no other reason. There are still detractors who have a point. The only reason I started using it, years ago, is cause I had a project that required it and they only started using it because...because....errrr...uh...they don't know.


Yeah, bandwagon effect is part of it, but you gotta have some substance behind the popularity. I don't think that Git could have reached that point (where it can count on the bandwagon effect to provide the steam) without addressing Subversion's shortcomings. Heck, we even have a Git how-to on these forums by ShelLuser ... and he'd know how to squeeze the juice out of git and make it really work for its keep on the FreeBSD project.


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## ShelLuser (Oct 2, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Sometimes I'm still amazed.





Zirias said:


> This is just awesome.


Bias _most definitely_ goes into effect here but I agree (what a surprise...). I got sucked into this one a long time ago and with all due respect (this may sound off to some): if you ask me what the best thing is that came out of the Linux project then my response would be "Git". No disrespect intended, I'm well aware that other areas managed to provide impressive things as well, but....

See, the Linux kernel as a whole is pretty cool. Now look at the Linux kernel documentation and... well, you may not be as much impressed anymore.

Now look at the Git documentation?  When I saw that stuff at first I honestly wondered if Linux merged with FreeBSD somehow. Because those manual pages, the documentation, and whole setup, that's what I'd expect from FreeBSD, _*not*_ Linux. And yet it happened.

Oh, by the way, I fully "blame" (naah, just kidding!) astyle for my little vent here


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> I still prefer SCCS and SVN over Git. Thank you.


May I assume the total absence of any _reasoning_ is a hint that the reason is "I don't want to learn something new"?


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

See, one of the problems with Git is that I’d actually *need to learn* it, because its command-line interface is incoherent and confusing _at best_, with no overall technical advantage over most other VCSs.


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> because its command-line interface is incoherent and confusing _at best_,


for "prior knowledge" (expectations) from using other systems?


Cthulhux said:


> with no overall technical advantage over most other VCSs.


See my initial post as one example for lots of technical advantages


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

Zirias said:


> for "prior knowledge" (expectations) from using other systems?


Even for those who started their journey into VCSs with Git.



Zirias said:


> See my initial post as one example for lots of technical advantages


You mean the "lots" as in "one, i.e. rebase"?
Well, _git rebase_ is a good example for things which exist in Git as a workaround for a conceptual disadvantage. It would not even _need_ a "rebase" command if it adopted Darcs's patch strategy.


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> Even for those who started their journey into VCSs with Git.


Lots of people disagree. Just saying 


Cthulhux said:


> Well, _git rebase_ is a good example for things which exist in Git as a workaround for a conceptual disadvantage. It would not even _need_ a "rebase" command if it adopted Darcs's patch strategy.


Interesting straw after stating you'd prefer svn. Now argumenting with a different distributed(!) system is clearly moving the goalposts.  Still, automatic reordering sounds nice, but can't solve all the problems. "rebase" (with manual reordering) is explicit and works, and the OP is about how well git detects stuff that can be automated with this explicit strategy.


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Lots of people disagree.


Now do they?



Zirias said:


> Interesting straw after stating you'd prefer svn.


See, what I mean is that there is no single feature in Git that would not have better counterparts elsewhere.


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> See, what I mean is that there is no single feature in Git that would not have better counterparts elsewhere.


Especially in svn. Yep, you made your hilariously inconsistent point  – have a


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Especially in svn.


SVN is a very good example. SVN is what I use to fetch stuff from Github (which supports it) if I absolutely must; because I won't have to deal with the _hilarious_ CLI of the Git binaries then.



Zirias said:


> – have a


Pathetic.


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> Pathetic.


Indeed


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## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

FWIW, CVS actually got me burned in college in 2003-04. I made a commit without really knowing how things work - and it was very difficult to undo the mistake. I think the repo had to be re-set up from scratch. Yeah, it was for a class project, just a learning experience for everyone, and it was early in the 10-week semester, but time was wasted recovering from my mistake. I ended up teaming up with someone who knew CVS way better than me, and he was the one making sure my code compiles and does not break other stuff. I was the one making sure the code complies with homework specs, as in making sure the correct algorithm was implemented within sections of code. My classmate did a better job than me managing the CVS commits. 

I actually tried to learn SVN after that class was over, but quickly got lost, and set it aside - until Git burst onto the scene. Now I'm seeing that major projects are moving to Git, and I'm thinking - maybe it's time to devote some time to learning git. It can be as simple or as fancy as I want it to be, and still be very useful without all the extras. For me, at least, it's much easier to follow the git how-tos than for svn. It is much more coherent, and things do add up in the logic.

Zirias : Some of the best sashimi around comes from bluefin tuna.


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Indeed



Are you a typical Git user? I ask for the list of reasons why Git is ridiculous.


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

astyle said:


> Now I'm seeing that major projects are moving to Git, and I'm thinking - maybe it's time to devote some time to learning git.


No.


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux, on forums, I respect people mainly based on what they write. "stupid or trolling" is not a relevant question in that context.


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## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> No.


that's your choice, I was speaking for myself.


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

Zirias said:


> I respect people mainly based on what they write.



People who disagree with your claim that Git was better than every other VCS in even one single aspect have automatically lost your respect?
I see.

I think I'll end this discussion here.


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> People who disagree with your claim that Git was better than every other VCS in even one single aspect


FWIW, people reading this thread might try to find that claim. Spoiler: that's futile  


Cthulhux said:


> I think I'll end this discussion here.


Thanks a lot!


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

BTW, for those who want a "claim", here's one:

It's very likely that feature X is "better" in SCM X than in git, and feature Y is "better" in SCM Y than in git, and so on…
But as a whole, git is pretty nice. Compared to svn (where we're coming from in the context of FreeBSD), it's just awesome, especially if you're a contributor (without "commit bit") it makes life much simpler!

And about how to lose my respect? Easy. You could for example lead a crusade discussion, using stylistic crap like e.g. moving the goalposts. There, you lost my respect


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## rorgoroth (Oct 2, 2021)

I use Mercurial for everything personal, and have it mirrored to git where needed.

I don't find git to be very user friendly, my gitconfig is set up with aliases to make my life easier but often I will force push through any issues because my time is not worthless and I've got better things to do than read 20 minutes of the genius of stackoverflow offering up 20 different solutions of which almost all are outdated, broken or just don't work at all. I'd certainly pick git over SVN or CVS though *shudders*


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

rorgoroth: A comparison with other distributed(!) SCMs is probably fair. Although my experience is different, I use "force push" only on my private stuff (branches, sometimes whole repos) with noone else collaborating, as it is intended … but I guess you could complain about git's "learning curve". Of course, there's some "bandwagon effect" when deciding to _which_ DSCM to move from SVN. Almost any dev active in OSS development (there are very few exceptions) "knows" git…

It's just ridiculous to see people claim "I prefer SVN", and when asking critically, you get stuff like "distributed SCM _foo_ does _bar_ better!".


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## astyle (Oct 2, 2021)

rorgoroth said:


> I use Mercurial for everything personal, and have it mirrored to git where needed.
> 
> I don't find git to be very user friendly, my gitconfig is set up with aliases to make my life easier but often I will force push through any issues because my time is not worthless and I've got better things to do than read 20 minutes of the genius of stackoverflow offering up 20 different solutions of which almost all are outdated, broken or just don't work at all. I'd certainly pick git over SVN or CVS though *shudders*


y'know, just about all software is like that - 20 solutions on SO and in other places. This is partly why we have FreeBSD forums - a community of users who can help you think things through, and make sense of what you see on the Internet. FWIW, I recently had the same experience with Apache setup - 20 different partial solutions on the Internet, and then the forum users right here helped me with commentary and examples.  I was able to decide on what to do pretty quickly - much quicker than if I had to comb through SO and other partial solutions on the Internet.


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## Crivens (Oct 2, 2021)

Ah, smells of Vi./.Emacs in here. Can we keep the lid on such a can of fermenting fish and be civil? Or is this heading the way of pc./.mac?


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## Jose (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> Now do they?
> 
> 
> See, what I mean is that there is no single feature in Git that would not have better counterparts elsewhere.


Yes, but there's no other single SCM system that has all the features of Git. I hear great things about Perforce, and many very successful companies started out using it, but it's closed source. Heck, Linus probably got a lot of the ideas for the design of Git from using Bitkeeper in the kernel for years - also closed-source. Mercurial has a very nice command-line interface, but its Web interface is ass, and it's in the maw of the Python 2 -> 3 monster at the moment.



drhowarddrfine said:


> I have to say that git might be a bit of jumping on the bandwagon. Using git because Linux did and no other reason. There are still detractors who have a point. The only reason I started using it, years ago, is cause I had a project that required it and they only started using it because...because....errrr...uh...they don't know.


I switched to Git the very first time for very good reasons. Svn simply could not handle having the master branch merged back to a feature branch repeatedly. It would think every previous merge was a conflict. One of us had to spend sometimes days disentangling the BS conflicts from the real ones. We switched to Git, and that problem simply went away. It was one of those things that doesn't happen, but it did, and now I'm a confirmed Git fanboi for life.

We considered both Mercurial and Git, and chose the latter because it already had wider adoption. I wasn't sure about that choice back then because the Mercurial command-line interface was quite a bit nicer. I'm glad we chose Git in retrospect.


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## Cthulhux (Oct 2, 2021)

Jose said:


> Yes, but there's no other single SCM system that has all the features of Git.


Wrong.
Mercurial and BitKeeper have even more features than Git; and those are only the first two that come to my mind.



Jose said:


> We considered both Mercurial and Git, and chose the latter because it already had wider adoption.











						Positive feedback - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## zirias@ (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> Wrong.


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## Jose (Oct 2, 2021)

Cthulhux said:


> Wrong.
> Mercurial and BitKeeper have even more features than Git; and those are only the first two that come to my mind.


Bitkeeper does not support signed revisions and it's no longer developed. I've already explained why I'm glad I didn't choose Mercurial, but according to the chart you linked, it does not support Unicode file names in Windows. Seems like a big deal to me.



Cthulhux said:


> Positive feedback - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not always a bad thing.


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## zirias@ (Oct 8, 2021)

Yet another example for git "awesomeness" (yes, compared to svn, of course): PR 254178. To solve this major fuckup, I needed to sync my changes between my builder machine and my testbuilder (running -CURRENT and having poudriere jails for all supported versions). AND I needed to rebase and squash commits. Do that with svn, and have a lot of fun


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## kpedersen (Oct 8, 2021)

Actually I found this the other day that might solve any "git in base" worries:
https://github.com/djanderson/aho

Annoyingly it uses gawk rather than the more portable awk.


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## zirias@ (Oct 8, 2021)

Why not brainfuck?


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## astyle (Oct 8, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> Actually I found this the other day that might solve any "git in base" worries:
> https://github.com/djanderson/aho
> 
> Annoyingly it uses gawk rather than the more portable awk.


The author has no plans to add network functionality, so no clone or push - this is straight from the link provided by kpedersen ...


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## Cthulhux (Oct 8, 2021)

kpedersen said:


> Annoyingly it uses gawk rather than the more portable awk.



Hmm. Wouldn't gawk's GPL require aho to be GPL'ed as well?


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## zirias@ (Oct 8, 2021)

Oh my. Is awk even a programming language? IDK, I never learned it (shame on me!).

About base, if there's a pressing need to have a suitably-licensed replacement for svnlite(1), GIT is (kind of) well-understood, so just reimplement it? Or isn't that what devel/got already did? IDK, never tried that either…

Or maybe, base doesn't even need a full GIT implementation? After all, what the *user* _might_ need is just getting stuff _from_ a GIT repo. net/gitup would satisfy that need. Then, is it a problem when contributors install a GPL-licensed software from ports? 

The aftermath of the GIT transition probably still needs some discussion. But I rest my case, GIT improved the workflow for contributors A LOT!


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## Argentum (Oct 8, 2021)

astyle said:


> I don't care too much about being politically correct in UNIX commands... `/bin/kill`, `git blame`, typos in `/bin/fsck`...  The guy who invented Git in the first place, he had to take a sensitivity training class! For me, things have to work, and logic has to add up to something sensible.


misc/thefuck


```
====> Compressing man pages (compress-man)
===>  Installing for thefuck-3.31
===>  Checking if thefuck is already installed
===>   Registering installation for thefuck-3.31
Installing thefuck-3.31...
```


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## astyle (Oct 8, 2021)

In all honesty, I like the idea of using base utils to fully re-implement Git (That would solve the dependency issues, and clear the way for Git to be included in base).


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## zirias@ (Oct 8, 2021)

astyle said:


> In all honesty, I like the idea of using base utils to fully re-implement Git (That would solve the dependency issues, and clear the way for Git to be included in base).


Still you have to ask whether that's really _needed_ in base. Base needs to be self-contained, no question about that. So there has to be a way to (at least) fetch ports. If portsnap(8) is indeed going away some day, this will leave a hole. But then, net/gitup would fill it.

Reimplementing all the GIT functionality using a _really_ permissive license (so, no GPL crap) would be great, of course. I'm just asking, is it really necessary?


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## astyle (Oct 8, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Still you have to ask whether that's really _needed_ in base. Base needs to be self-contained, no question about that. So there has to be a way to (at least) fetch ports. If portsnap(8) is indeed going away some day, this will leave a hole. But then, net/gitup would fill it.
> 
> Reimplementing all the GIT functionality using a _really_ permissive license (so, no GPL crap) would be great, of course. I'm just asking, is it really necessary?


Well, I'm gonna watch from the sidelines. If somebody can pull something like that off - that would be VERY interesting.


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## Argentum (Oct 8, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Still you have to ask whether that's really _needed_ in base. Base needs to be self-contained, no question about that. So there has to be a way to (at least) fetch ports. If portsnap(8) is indeed going away some day, this will leave a hole. But then, net/gitup would fill it.


`gitup` is good and does the job, but I can still notice that it is much slower than `portsnap`.


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## astyle (Oct 8, 2021)

Argentum said:


> `gitup` is good and does the job, but I can still notice that it is much slower than `portsnap`.


is that because `gitup` pulls in more data than `portsnap`?


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## Argentum (Oct 8, 2021)

astyle said:


> is that because `gitup` pulls in more data than `portsnap`?


I think the scanning of ports tree takes more time.

Or actually (_I think_) `portsnap` does not scan the ports tree and brings in just the change file, but `gitup` does the scan and that takes time.


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## Jose (Oct 8, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Oh my. Is awk even a programming language? IDK, I never learned it (shame on me!).


Can't tell if you're joking. Yes, Awk is a programming language, and a great one at that. Your loss if you haven't learnt it.


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## zirias@ (Oct 8, 2021)

Jose said:


> Can't tell if you're joking. Yes, Awk is a programming language, and a great one at that. Your loss if you haven't learnt it.


Only partially joking. Yes, I know it is a programming language. And I refuse to learn it. I know enough of these (C, C++, C#, Java, Javascript, Perl, Tcl, (bourne) shell, PHP, 6502 ASM, CBM BASIC, Pascal, Object Pascal, oh well …) to get where I need. Still, awk is obviously a "special purpose" scripting language, so implementing GIT in awk seems like a "because you can" project


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## astyle (Oct 8, 2021)

Zirias said:


> Only partially joking. Yes, I know it is a programming language. And I refuse to learn it. I know enough of these (C, C++, C#, Java, Javascript, Perl, Tcl, (bourne) shell, PHP, 6502 ASM, oh well …) to get where I need. Still, awk is obviously a "special purpose" scripting language, so implementing GIT in awk seems like a "because you can" project


I haven't really 'learned' awk either... I copy-paste useful awk commands off StackOverflow and KlaraSystems as I see fit. I sometimes do study the snippets just to see how I can adapt it to fit my needs, but I'm not gonna sit down and devote time to properly learning awk so that  I can use it off the top of my head for anything. There's other stuff that interests me, and that's where my time goes.


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## zirias@ (Oct 9, 2021)

And now, I finally updated my ports repo on Github to be a mirror of my local repo on my builder machine 

Back when FreeBSD used SVN, it was "easier" to have the ports I was working on isolated in a git repo, but now, this isn't necessary any more – just publishing my `local` branch that's continuously rebased!


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## zirias@ (Oct 18, 2021)

For my taste, there isn't enough discussion here: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-ports/2021-October/000835.html

Would be nice if someone would join.  I think now that we finally have that nice tool, we should make best use of it!


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