# Software Developer or Software Engineer



## Phishfry (Oct 15, 2022)

Is a ‘software engineer’ an engineer? Alberta regulator says no, riling the province’s tech sector
					

The long-standing rift pits government-mandated engineering associations against the fast-growing tech industry that has used the well-worn title since the 1960s




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




We have a new hire at work. He tells me he is an engineer. I ask him is he a ships engineer(1) or an actual engineer?
He says he is an engineer engineer.

I ask him what was his alma matter. Uhhh Uhhhh.

Yea exactly.


(1)   Shipboard engine room technicians are often called 'engineers'. It is an official job title too.
They are by no means a degreed engineer. It is just a label that merchant marines use.


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## W.hâ/t (Oct 15, 2022)

Sadly, I am not an engineer.


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## eternal_noob (Oct 15, 2022)

I am a code monkey. Typing and typing. Getting bananas instead of $$$.


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## PMc (Oct 15, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Is a ‘software engineer’ an engineer? Alberta regulator says no, riling the province’s tech sector
> 
> 
> The long-standing rift pits government-mandated engineering associations against the fast-growing tech industry that has used the well-worn title since the 1960s
> ...


Hm. They want money for reading their stuff. 



Phishfry said:


> We have a new hire at work. He tells me he is an engineer. I ask him is he a ships engineer(1) or an actual engineer?
> He says he is an engineer engineer.


So why is a ships engineer not an engineer?...


Phishfry said:


> (1)   Shipboard engine room technicians are often called 'engineers'. It is an official job title too.
> They are by no means a degreed engineer. It is just a label that merchant marines use.


Ahh! I get it.

I think to some extent the same thing happens in the IT business. Everybody professionally working the machinery is an engineer. 
But there is another thing, an actual thing, not concerning titles, but concerning the outcome. It's long now forgotten, it was once called "Deutsche Ingenieurarbeit", and I leave it to you to translate (nowadays that's no longer important, it's all chinese anyway).


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## Phishfry (Oct 15, 2022)

Additional Source:


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/tech-companies-alberta-premier-software-engineer-title-1.6617742
		










						Varcoe: Trouble over titles — tech sector asks premier to weigh in on spat over software engineers
					

The province has been running an aggressive ad program in British Columbia and Ontario recently, calling for workers — including tech-sector talent — to flock…




					calgaryherald.com


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## Phishfry (Oct 15, 2022)

> you do not want someone designing your pacemaker or self-driving car if they are not a licensed engineer


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## Phishfry (Oct 15, 2022)

I wonder how many software engineers worked on Boeing MCAS that were not licensed engineers.









						How the Boeing 737 Max Disaster Looks to a Software Developer
					

Design shortcuts meant to make a new plane seem like an old, familiar one are to blame




					spectrum.ieee.org
				






> It was interesting how many hoops we had to jump through to get an add-on board for the computer certified, while software certifications were nil


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## PMc (Oct 15, 2022)

We had this already.








						A Software Error That Caused Ariane 5 Rocket Failure
					

European Space Agency lost an effort of over a decade and $500 millions in the Ariane 5 rocket explosion, all thanks to a floating point bug in its software.




					itsfoss.com
				




This was the heads-up: everybody could (and should) have seen what software is and what software can do. Specifically in such kind of applications.


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## cy@ (Oct 16, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Is a ‘software engineer’ an engineer? Alberta regulator says no, riling the province’s tech sector
> 
> 
> The long-standing rift pits government-mandated engineering associations against the fast-growing tech industry that has used the well-worn title since the 1960s
> ...


This was common knowledge when I lived there over 30 years ago. APEGA keeps a tight rein on this. Even back then I heard of lawsuits to enforce this.

Back in those days I worked with a bunch of electrical engineers. Young engineers were crazy party animals. It was a fun time. The older they got the more they mellowed out. Not sure if this is true today anymore.


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## Geezer (Oct 16, 2022)

Software Developer or Software Engineer

Programmer


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## Jose (Oct 16, 2022)

Even though "engineer" is in my official title, I call myself a "computer programmer". I don't do bridges and the like. A different take on "licensed engineer":









						Oregon Engineer Wins Traffic-Light Timing Lawsuit - Institute for Justice
					

Arlington, Va.—On December 28, 2018, Magistrate Judge Stacie F. Beckerman of the U.S. District Court for the District of Oregon entered a judgment largely ruling […]




					ij.org


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## PMc (Oct 16, 2022)

I never did commercial programming. I did compute center stuff, connectivity and bandwidth planning, failsafe/high-availability schemes, disaster-recovery concepts, integrations and migrations, performance issues and failure analysis. No idea how that should be called in IT, but normally it would be called engineering.


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 16, 2022)

When i worked as software engineer my boss once told me, i can easily change your job-title, but not your loan.
But what am i with a "title"?


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## Crivens (Oct 16, 2022)

PMc said:


> It's long now forgotten, it was once called "Deutsche Ingenieurarbeit", and I leave it to you to translate (nowadays that's no longer important, it's all chinese anyway).


Not true. We still are at it. The problem is, as always, that those who copy it have no idea how it works, or even why.


Phishfry said:


> wonder how many software engineers worked on Boeing MCAS that were not licensed engineers.


Better ask "How many vital decisions were made by management or bean counters?" This includes hireing. i don't mind the title as long as the guy does good work and has a good work ethos. I even don't mind that old dude sipping tea all day and telling everybody why what you propose did not work last time.

But the MBA telling me how to do my job or the HR manager with a Phd in underwater basket weaving telling me who will fit my team?

And I call myself what I want, depending on the situation.


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## Profighost (Oct 16, 2022)

Presumbly I spoil the fun again 

One of my professors once said:
'For the term "system" you may also use the term "thing".'
Engineer is quite similar.
Depending on which language you use, and under what law you are engineer can mean anything, or nothing at all.

Personally I have an engineer degree from a german university ('machines engineering, electrical and systems automation' - one of those monsters... )
In germany the title Ingenieur is protected and can only be achived by a college graduation.

So what bothered me for many years is that computer scientists and programmers also name themselves engineers.
From a strict (german) engineer's point of view they are not.
They are natural scientists.
This is neither ment to be worth more and for sure not less.
It's different.

An engineer always grasps just the knowledge he needs, and asks if something is of any use.
A natural scientists doesn't care about usage.
He's curious about anything he doens't know yet, wants to understand it, and tends to get lost into deep analytics.

Against a wide misbelief engineers always aim to achieve the very least and cheapest solution possible (KISS, unix philosophy - laws of engineering).

Salesguys always want more features, because the amount of features sell.
They don't give a shit if something works, is of any use, or even dangerous as long as it sells and as few money as possible needs to be paid for warranty, penalties and repairs.

Scientists don't care about costs at all.
No price can be put on knowledge.
They want to check out what even more can be done, aim for infinity.

Engineers are focused on the target's usage, the cost and the schedule.
If something does the job satisfactory _exactly as defined_ - not more, not less - for an engineer the task is done.
(Therein lies the core problem between salesguys and engineers.
Salesguys claim to exclusively define, but they don't, because a) they often don't know enough and b) they don't want the responsibility.
But they expect the engineers to meet the not or vague defined specification to the point precisely.
And tha's what they also do not understand, that's impossible.
One cannot meet an undefined specification.
There are impossibilties no matter how often you repeat Toyota's slogan )

An engineer has awareness of systems.
He's always aware of real systems exist in a real world.
They consist of real hardware within physical limits of a real world, ages, need maintenance, repairs, backup, and replacements.
An engineer knows to draw the line between simulation and reality.
Real systems are in real environmental conditions, exposed to atmospheres, temperature changes, moist, dust,.....
- and above all: users

An engineer is aware of building something without any use is total nonsense.
A (computer) scientist may create things just to see if it can be done, only. (e.g. no engineer would have ever created the programming language brainfuck )

Often enough computer scientist/programmers need to be beaten to document their software.
When the code runs, they think they're done.
And they think, if they understands it, so does everybody else - or they are not worth it 
(E.g.: Yesterday I upgraded my packages.
Also qemu had an upgrade.
Before the upgrade I could run my Win7-image with the option '-soundhw all'.
qemu grumbled a bit this is outdated and not to be used anymore, but nevertheless it worked, I had sound.
After the update the option now is ignored, error message. No sound anymore.
But don't you think the documentation was updated, too.
Of course not!
I still cannot get it from how to get me sound, except the deprecated options. 
So now I have to switch to virtualbox again, because their new update now includes USB 2 & 3. [thanks kpedersen to post that info { reading the forum brings knowledge}]
Bottom line: The update causes users (at least me) to switch to another software and prevent even more users to join.
As from an engineer's point of view this is absolutely not comprehensible.
Because for an engineer you will not make an effort to create something and then prevent people to use it...
If one would talk to those about this, they would argue, and explain... - but not update the f#c41ng documentation!! )

I remember a night in the late 90's.
The time of Sony's PS1 and the dawn of mainstream internet.
We were sitting together, having a couple of .... beers, too.
Ingo, a very promising student of computer science, started rhapsodizing entusiastically about the advantages of Hypertext:
'...imagine, you don't need to download anything anymore. No need to have copies at all,... just link to it...this will be great!'
As an engineer-to-be I said:
'Yeah, well, but still we are dealing with files lying somewhere on harddisks on some computers, need electricity and addresses. If somebody decides to move or remove them, e.g. some salesguy says "get rid off this old rubbish", or simply the hardware fails your link is broken.'
25 years later we're all still aware of our very good, old friend 404 
He:'...yeah, well,..... to depend on hardware is still an annoying issue that must be solved....'  
- natural scientists.
No engineer would serioulsy consider something totally hypothetic.

*However, bottom line, *
if one looks at the origin of the word engineer just means 'someone who creates' - as I said, anything or nothing at all.

And I agree with previous posters like Alain de Vos.
After all titles are for the bureaucrazy of hierarchic organisations.
They cannot tell you for sure what somebody can do.
And in the end that's all what matters, only.

Since I am no part of any organization anymore I don't have to bother about such idiocy like ranks and titles anymore,
I can take people as they are, not about how many stripes are on their shoulder.
This is freedom. 

After all, with modern software engineering one cannot draw a line between science and engineering, as I did to define both.
It is both.
It's kind of science.
And it's engineering, no mistake.
You need engineering to realize something useful working.
And you need science to create something new.


Bob Pease:
"
People often ask, "Would you encourage your son or daughter to go into engineering?"
I reply, "Yes, if it is analog circuit design."
They say, "Explain!"
I respond, "My friends and I know many analog design techniques, tricks, and secrets.
They cannot be learned from SPICE.
Every year there are 200,000 Chinese engineering graduates, and they don't know what we know.
We can solve problems they cannot."
I rest my case. /rap
"


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## Datapanic (Oct 16, 2022)

At NASA, a Systems Engineer has nothing to do with IT, so my job title then was Systems Administrator.


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## cynwulf (Oct 18, 2022)

I refer to the person I work with as a "programmer". The other "titles" are the product of business (much like "The Cloud"). Probably to make job adverts sound better e.g "Sanitary Installations Hygienic Technician" and the like.


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## W.hâ/t (Oct 18, 2022)

cynwulf said:


> Probably to make job adverts sound better e.g "Sanitary Installations Hygienic Technician" and the like.


I had a friend who use is job title to tell about waht he was doing. It sounded great, until I asked him what exactly was he doing... Had very little to do with the job title.


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## zirias@ (Oct 18, 2022)

There are many approaches to software development. You have e.g. the "art of programming" approach, which focuses on creative work. You have the "scientific" approach which mainly wants to try new concepts. Well, you have the, let's say, "code monkey" approach (just get the job done somehow, no need to understand everything, copy&paste what looks useful, whatever)...

Of course there's also the "engineering" approach. "Software engineering" is even thaught at some schools (universities and similar). Important ingredients are really understanding the problem to be solved, doing _exactly_ what's necessary to solve it (no more, but also no less), apply well-known patterns that suit the problem, and of course plan and understand the solution beforehand.

Someone following this approach (and having the necessary knowledge and experience for that) might call themselves a "software engineer". Whether that's even legal is a different discussion, most likely depending on your local legislature. Whether it's "worth" anything, well, you'd probably need some kind of certification here, I don't know of any. I have a clear idea of what software engineering is _supposed_ to mean, but most certainly, not everyone calling themselves "software engineer" is actually capable to do that...


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## Crivens (Oct 18, 2022)

cynwulf said:


> "Sanitary Installations Hygienic Technician" and the like.


We have the 'Herbststrassenkrafthygieniker', broken down and word by word "Autum street power hygiene worker". Some dude with a leaf blower. 
As Carlin made clear, chaging the words to sound better does not make the thing better.


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## alexseitsinger (Oct 18, 2022)

Anyone that learns how to make the computer do what they want likely qualifies as an engineer. However, I think it's about time it evolves to the more apropos "Software Inventor" or "Software Genius". Sadly, I don't think I would take a resume seriously if someone didn't think enough of themselves and described themselves as an ordinary, run-of-the-mill, chuck-of-the-eartch, lowly "Software Engineer" (or even worse "Software Developer").


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## cynwulf (Oct 18, 2022)

Same with "factory worker" -> "production operative".

Go back a few decades and there were "computer programmers" and that was that.

So many buzz words used in job adverts, curriculum vitae/resume, etc.


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## Phishfry (Oct 18, 2022)

Not an engineer.
Having personnel around a alpha check of high pressure system is stupid.









						An accident at SpaceX | Semafor
					

The technicians in the private space industry, responsible for building and repairing rockets, receive little recognition — even when they sacrifice their lives for the mission.




					www.semafor.com
				






> In the accident involving Cabada, venting, was done for the first time using an automated program as opposed to the normal manual method that had been used in previous operations.”


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## Holger (Oct 19, 2022)

eternal_noob said:


> I am a code monkey. Typing and typing. Getting bananas instead of $$$.


I am sure your code is well worth looking at!


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