# Preferred DE of the FreeBSD users



## freezr (Jan 28, 2022)

Hi guys,

since FreeBSD doesn't have a default DE or WM I'd like to know which are the preferences here, it is only a personal curiosity, I if you want share your habit it will be great!

*If you do not use any DE/WM there's no need for you to participate but if your WM isn't listed I'd like to know your choice of use!*

Thanks in advance to all!

tgl


----------



## mer (Jan 28, 2022)

I won't vote because you don't have an "other" choice, but WindowMaker for going on 20yrs.  It's more of a classic Window Manager instead of "desktop environment".


----------



## freezr (Jan 28, 2022)

Doesn't fall WindowMaker into the Stacking Windows Manager Category?


----------



## eternal_noob (Jan 28, 2022)

mer said:


> you don't have an "other" choice


Technically you are right, he's got two "other" choices.


----------



## mer (Jan 28, 2022)

perhaps it does fall under "stacking" but I've never thought of it that way.  Unless "stacking window manager" means "not tiling"


----------



## Cthulhux (Jan 28, 2022)

+1 for Window Maker.


----------



## MarcoB (Jan 28, 2022)

Fluxbox or WindowMaker


----------



## monwarez (Jan 28, 2022)

AwesomeWM for me


----------



## Crivens (Jan 28, 2022)

*cough* csh
Sometimes, but the ttys are neither stacking nor tiling.


----------



## jmos (Jan 28, 2022)

tgl said:


> Doesn't fall WindowMaker into the Stacking Windows Manager Category?


Window Maker has "applets" (dockapps), a "taskbar", program starter, sessions, etc. & much more - IMO it's more of a desktop environment than a window manager


----------



## astyle (Jan 28, 2022)

I personally prefer KDE... Most DE's are a pain to upgrade properly (while leaving everything else alone), KDE is no exception (Still trying to set up Poudriere to automate a proper upgrade, already 7 months into the project  ). KDE is pretty convenient for my needs, so I keep going with my Poudriere project.


----------



## freezr (Jan 28, 2022)

jmos said:


> Window Maker has "applets" (dockapps), a "taskbar", program starter, sessions, etc. & much more - IMO it's more of a desktop environment than a window manager


This is true but conventionally it has been always considered a WM:



> *Window Maker* is an X11 window manager originally designed to provide integration support for the GNUstep Desktop Environment, although it can run stand alone. In every way possible, it reproduces the elegant look and feel of the NeXTSTEP user interface.


----------



## zirias@ (Jan 28, 2022)

If I may ask, is there any objective in that "personal curiosity"? Like, getting ideas what to try yourself? 

I personally prefer FVWM, currently using x11-wm/fvwm3 (and trying to maintain that port as well).

If asked specifically about (full) desktop environments, I prefer KDE/Plasma.


----------



## covacat (Jan 28, 2022)

does misc/window count ?
it used to be in base...


----------



## freezr (Jan 28, 2022)

covacat said:


> does misc/window count ?
> it used to be in base...



If fits under the Stacking or Tiling category why not?


----------



## freezr (Jan 28, 2022)

Zirias said:


> If I may ask, is there any objective in that "personal curiosity"? Like, getting ideas what to try yourself?
> 
> I personally prefer FVWM, currently using x11-wm/fvwm3 (and trying to maintain that port as well).
> 
> If asked specifically about (full) desktop environments, I prefer KDE/Plasma.


If this was a Linux forum you would had thousand of new subscriptions of people yelling at each others the Gnome is better than KDE and vice-versa.

I'd like to understand how much interest there is around the desktop space, I know the FreeBSD Foundation wants promote the OS as general purpose although the biggest interest is around ZFS, Jails and so on...

In order to create an interest around the dekstop use leaving the OS without a default DE/WM is contradictory. I heard that Lumina is supposed to be BSD DE made by the BSD folks, although I like it is not in a very good shape; but it is not alone looks like is a condition shared across all the DE and I tend to consider this more a reflex of a little interest about the desktop space more than a lack of users or developers.


----------



## zirias@ (Jan 28, 2022)

tgl said:


> In order to create an interest around the dekstop use leaving the OS without a default DE/WM is contradictory.


Frankly, no. FreeBSD *is* a _general-purpose_ OS. It is self-contained, (mostly?) POSIX-compliant, and capable of running any *nix software. Desktop environments (and window managers) exist as standalone projects. They're utterly unnecessary for _some_ workloads. Having a default would IMHO kind of defeat the _general purpose_ idea...


tgl said:


> I heard that Lumina is supposed to be BSD DE made by the BSD folks


Lumina really never "got there". I personally think that's kind of sad. Having read some stuff about the ideas behind it, it was promising. Having tried it myself, it was just unfinished. Would be great if the project got some love, but, someone has to do it.

One reason I prefer KDE out of the "full-featured" desktops is: they care about portability, they even have a task-force for KDE on FreeBSD.


----------



## Jose (Jan 28, 2022)

Openbox for me.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Jan 28, 2022)

Fluxbox.

The Lumina file manager, Insight, was sorely lacking a "Copy To" and "Move To" feature when I tried it and reported as such to Beanieweenie.


----------



## mer (Jan 28, 2022)

Following is my opinion, agree, disagree, tell me I'm full of crap, "it's all good".  I'm trying to address this statement by tgl:

"In order to create an interest around the dekstop use leaving the OS without a default DE/WM is contradictory."

Lumina:  great idea, not enough manpower to get over the finish line.  Adequate desktop environment if that's what you want/need.
KDE/Gnome:  My opinion like all desktop environments too much, too bloated, not what I want/need.

FreeBSD and Desktops.  This has been "the topic" for as long as I can remember (and we're talking about 3.x days).  I have never given it much thought.  Why?  Any computer use is about the applications.  What applications do I need, what applications do I want.  Everything else is a lesser concern.
Stability of the base OS is a good thing, it's like the foundation of the house.  But you can have the best foundation in the world and a house that doesn't support your needs.

FreeBSD is a stable foundation.  Maybe not always the fastest, maybe not always the latest hardware support, but in general for most workloads, it fast enough and stable enough.

Applications (the house):  what are you doing.  Simple text editing?  Vi and a console work fine for that.  Digital photography/video editing?  Completely different requirements.  Figure out what you want (oh darktable is pretty darn good for photo editing by the way)

So now we have a foundation and a house.  What colors, what flooring, what appliances?  To me that is the DE/WM bits.  We are into personal preference, personal opinions.  I like blue wall paint (KDE) you like yellow (Gnome).  Why should there be a blue default?  Why should there be a yellow default?  As soon as you pick one, you'll have someone that likes greens (stacking window manager) and you can't sell the house.

If you're still reading, thank you. 

I don't want FreeBSD proper to have a default desktop environment or window manager.  I want it to install a solid foundation that I can build upon to create the computing environment that I like, that make ME productive.  That is exactly what we get from current FreeBSD.

If you want "A FreeBSD that installs a desktop environment of KDE/Gnome by default" then look for a distribution that does that.

Sorry if this got long and opinionated, but hey, it's Friday and snow's coming in.


----------



## kpedersen (Jan 28, 2022)

tgl said:


> In order to create an interest around the dekstop use leaving the OS without a default DE/WM is contradictory.


You have now seen first hand that everyone uses different environments (the most common are WMs).
Any choice for a "default" DE would effectively be unsuitable for over 50% of users.

From the sounds of the comments, Window Maker might possibly be the most popular environment. Would you really want Window Maker in the default install?


----------



## thedaemon (Jan 28, 2022)

OpenBox for me as well. Why is Fluxbox listed and not OpenBox? Both are pretty old, NGL.


----------



## mer (Jan 28, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> Any choice for a "default" DE would effectively be unsuitable for over 50% of users.


I'd posit closer to 90%.


----------



## freezr (Jan 29, 2022)

Zirias said:


> Frankly, no. FreeBSD *is* a _general-purpose_ OS. It is self-contained, (mostly?) POSIX-compliant, and capable of running any *nix software. Desktop environments (and window managers) exist as standalone projects. They're utterly unnecessary for _some_ workloads. Having a default would IMHO kind of defeat the _general purpose_ idea...
> 
> Lumina really never "got there". I personally think that's kind of sad. Having read some stuff about the ideas behind it, it was promising. Having tried it myself, it was just unfinished. Would be great if the project got some love, but, someone has to do it.
> 
> One reason I prefer KDE out of the "full-featured" desktops is: they care about portability, they even have a task-force for KDE on FreeBSD.



That is fair enough however general purpose is that kind of label that can depict everything and nothing at the same time. A default DE is just strategic in term of documentation and for welcoming new, not very tech savvy, users.


----------



## Jose (Jan 29, 2022)

tgl said:


> A default DE is just strategic in term of documentation and for welcoming new. not very tech savvy, users.


You're assuming that not very tech savvy users are a target.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 29, 2022)

tgl said:


> … In order to create an interest around the dekstop use leaving the OS without a default DE/WM is contradictory. …



Slightly contradictory, but I don't treat this as an obstacle.

I do like that the Foundation's _Guide to FreeBSD desktop distributions_ does not favour any particular distro, or desktop environment.

Since you joined in 2012, I guess that you used PC-BSD at some point?



Crivens said:


> *cough* csh
> Sometimes, but the ttys are neither stacking nor tiling.



I liked the console-based workspace switcher in FreeBSD 15.0-ALPHA2:


----------



## astyle (Jan 29, 2022)

Yeah, and somebody who is tech savvy would have no issues switching to something they like anyway.


----------



## freezr (Jan 29, 2022)

mer said:


> I don't want FreeBSD proper to have a default desktop environment or window manager.  I want it to install a solid foundation that I can build upon to create the computing environment that I like, that make ME productive.  That is exactly what we get from current FreeBSD.
> 
> If you want "A FreeBSD that installs a desktop environment of KDE/Gnome by default" then look for a distribution that does that.
> 
> Sorry if this got long and opinionated, but hey, it's Friday and snow's coming in.



Actually I don't want change anything nor I interested in any change, I was just curious to know how much is important here having a well integrated DE, eventually FreeBSD differently from Linux is a real OS and not a collection of software, having a default DE might be coherent on FreeBSD.


----------



## freezr (Jan 29, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> You have now seen first hand that everyone uses different environments (the most common are WMs).
> Any choice for a "default" DE would effectively be unsuitable for over 50% of users.
> 
> From the sounds of the comments, Window Maker might possibly be the most popular environment. Would you really want Window Maker in the default install?



So far there is a slightly advantage for people preferring a DE rather than a WM, I mean this is pretty foreseeable, different people different needs, however if by default FreeBSD would allow to install Window Maker and help newbies to have a fully functional X11 environment for me would be perfectly fine and sane, I would probably skip this step anyway and install X.org and XFCE4 by myself the way I like.

Also having some default is useful to learn how things work, I extensively compared GhostBSD and NomadBSD against FreeBSD to understand and check out what setup the former derivatives used respect the latter. The same I did when I was using Linux.

Not having a DE/WM by default sounds more we want more people but not all the people, I can figure the reason but I am pretty neutral about this, I stopped to recommend Linux since a very long time, now some folks are asking me if it is worth changing to FreeBSD, I am expressing what I though that is worth, but I really tempted to say not it isn't.


----------



## freezr (Jan 29, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Slightly contradictory, but I don't treat this as an obstacle.
> 
> I do like that the Foundation's _Guide to FreeBSD desktop distributions_ does not favour any particular distro, or desktop environment.
> 
> Since you joined in 2012, I guess that you used PC-BSD at some point?



I think, personal opinion, that having a default DE/WM is a good idea, at least this will receive more attention and it will get better and will make better the desktop experience; but this doesn't mean to abandon all the others. 

I joined the forum in the 2021 but I spent the 2020 playing with GhostBSD on a Virtual Machine, I tend to prefer "vanilla" version because any derivatives is a vision of someone else, hence I do agree the concept of the foundation is the right way, so I can build my vision of FreeBSD and I do really like the fact the installation is so modular that really you understand any process, however I am still finishing to setup my computer and when I have an issue I have to run Ghost or Midnight BSD to see how they addressed my current issue because there is anything that I can use to study or to compare.

If having a default DE/WM really doesn't encounter the favor of anyone here I would really loved having a Desktop Live iso to use as reference when I do not understand something or when the documentation is lacking.


----------



## freezr (Jan 29, 2022)

mer said:


> perhaps it does fall under "stacking" but I've never thought of it that way.  Unless "stacking window manager" means "not tiling"



Yes exactly!


----------



## freezr (Jan 29, 2022)

Jose said:


> You're assuming that not very tech savvy users are a target.



Not I am not assuming this but I'd like to understand if there is an interest toward that category of users.

The reason is always related with the healthy state of desktop space. If this topic has been addressed several time across the years is unknown for me therefore I apology if I sound naive or stubborn. 

The point is an easy setup of a desktop installation (I mean graphics, sound, bluetooth etc...) can make the life easier for many and therefore can be the manifestation of a vibrant interest around it.

From what I am reading here the interest is quite cold that means there will be lesser investment in this space then.


----------



## astyle (Jan 29, 2022)

tgl said:


> some folks are asking me if it is worth changing to FreeBSD, I am expressing what I though that is worth, but I really tempted to say not it isn't.


I'd say that it is... FreeBSD has its similarities and differences with Linux. And IIRC, even FreeBSD derivatives do have 'Live' Iso's that you can try. I'd encourage you to do your homework on them.


----------



## Jose (Jan 29, 2022)

tgl said:


> The reason is always related with the healthy state of desktop space. If this topic has been addressed several time across the years is unknown for me therefore I apology if I sound naive or stubborn.


Yes, this is a pitched battle that flares up on this forum every so often. I'll give you the shortest summary of my position I can come up with: Desktop is already dead anyway. Targeting the desktop is therefore ill-advised.


----------



## CanvisMe (Jan 29, 2022)

Right now I use x11-wm/leftwm, and it has been for six months. Maybe I'll try x11-wm/sway later, since it's more performant on wayland.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 29, 2022)

Jose said:


> … Desktop is already dead …



IMHO that's no more true than suggesting that FreeBSD is dead  

Anecdotally, I'm amongst the ~27% of users who most often use a web browser for /r/freebsd. (Some of those browsers might be on mobile devices.)


----------



## mer (Jan 29, 2022)

Again, my opinions, but:
I think a lot of folks have issues with the "by default" part of the question/discussion.

Let's look at Ubuntu for a moment:  they have downloads for servers and downloads for "desktops".  What is the biggest difference?  The desktop downloads install a graphical environment by default.  You can run a server on a desktop version (maybe a bit more work) and you can certainly install a DE  on the server version.

Coming back to FreeBSD, a very long time ago the installer would ask about optional packages you want installed;  one being "Graphical environment (X Window)".  I don't believe that functionality is in the current versions of the installer, simply it gained some functionality and lost some.  The sheer size of some packages nowdays means install media (ISO, USB images) need to actually be looked and decisions made on "what do we include by default to satisfy 99% of the people" and including a default graphical environment may mean dropping something else.

That's what I mean about issues with the "by default" part.

Now, if one searches here you come across some very nice tutorials ( Trihexagonal vermaden ) on installing a desktop environment that a lot of people have used easily.  There is also the desktop-installer package (probably others) that when run asks you a few things and pulls down the needed bits from the package repos.  A well written set of documentation (the handbook or release notes) makes the tutorials and packages easy and understandable to use.

Easy enough for Grandma?  Probably not, but that's what they make grandkids for 

I've never looked, but the installer may be scriptable.  If so, then all you need to do is create an installer script (think in terms of kickstart scripts for some Linux distros) that does the base install, asks some questions, fires up the network, downloads packages and sets up a few things.  Instant "install to a graphical environment of the users choice".  To me, that would be the proper way to create a FreeBSD distribution that will install a graphical user environment by default.

Thanks for reading, time for more coffee.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 29, 2022)

tgl said:


> 𠌦… I joined the forum in the 2021 …



Oops! Sorry. I misread that as 2012.

When I began using FreeBSD-based PC-BSD, it included multiple desktop environments. A Wayback Machine capture from shortly before the switch to Lumina as a default: <https://web.archive.org/web/20151125152824/http://www.pcbsd.org/> "… a host of popular open source window managers …".



mer said:


> desktop-installer



For convenience: sysutils/desktop-installer, maintained by `jwb@`. Not to be confused with jhb@, who provided this gem: 







mer said:


> … A well written set of documentation (the handbook or release notes) makes the tutorials and packages easy and understandable to use. …



The FreeBSD Handbook is fairly well-written, however it's: 

a tad overwhelming
a maintenance burden.


----------



## zirias@ (Jan 29, 2022)

tgl said:


> eventually FreeBSD differently from Linux is a real OS and not a collection of software, having a default DE might be coherent on FreeBSD.


FreeBSD is *both* (and the collection of software is pretty large). With that argument, you're obviously suggesting some DE should be integrated in the base system? Won't ever happen (thankfully).


----------



## shkhln (Jan 29, 2022)

tgl said:


> I heard that Lumina is supposed to be BSD DE made by the BSD folks, although I like it is not in a very good shape; but it is not alone looks like is a condition shared across all the DE


Ah, no. Lumina has considerably worse code than, say, XFCE. It really does not fulfill expectations with regard to the "BSD folks" and quality. Not that it tries to, but somehow people here always seem to assume that something done specifically for *BSD is always better than counterparts.


----------



## kpedersen (Jan 29, 2022)

mer said:


> Let's look at Ubuntu for a moment:  they have downloads for servers and downloads for "desktops".


It muddies up the documentation. Suddenly when googling for information, every site on networking starts by opening up some old, long since replaced Gnome network manager (that never really worked in the first place) rather than the actual CLI way to do it which will work in every environment people want to actually use.

Not to mention when a distro "favours" a specific desktop, it tends to leak into other packages as dependencies. For example on Ubuntu if you install LibreOffice, you somehow end up with their terribly ugly Gtk theme and naff mouse cursors. Just little "tweaks" here and there really bring down the correctness and tightness of a system.

Possibly the biggest example that annoyed me was RHEL 8 and installing it as a minimal server install. It had some tacky boot splash screen (by default). Yes, great for all those 12 year olds and grandparents installing RedHat but my server's Matrox GPU could barely deal with the needless fade effect.


----------



## Argentum (Jan 29, 2022)

Voted for x11/mate but in fact I have also x11/kde5 and and XFCE4 installed at the same time. For login I am using x11/sddm which lets me choose the WM every time I log in. However, having a choice, I find myself choosing MATE almost every time. 
For better desktop experience I am using deskutils/cairo-dock also. It works with MATE and KDE5.


----------



## robb (Jan 29, 2022)

x11-wm/i3-gaps


----------



## kpedersen (Jan 29, 2022)

I do find one thing interesting. Most "user-friendly" Linux distributions ship with Gnome 3 as their default. Yet that is really not doing well here when the user is presented with a choice.

If we did have a default as Gnome 3, I wonder if more people would be using it "just because it is already there" whereas it isn't truly their first choice. That is not user-friendly in my opinion.


----------



## Jose (Jan 29, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> Possibly the biggest example that annoyed me was RHEL 8 and installing it as a minimal server install. It had some tacky boot splash screen (by default). Yes, great for all those 12 year olds and grandparents installing RedHat but my server's Matrox GPU could barely deal with the needless fade effect.


Interesting how some problems repeat. Back in the mid '90s I was a Windows admin tasked with "upgrading" our servers from Windows NT 3.51 to 4.0. One of the things Microsoft did in 4.0 was move the video drivers into ring 0 for better UI responsiveness on the desktop. Problem was most of the server hardware of the era, including ours, had cheap and weak video hardware. It sat in a server room with no one in front of it most of the time, after all. The Trident video chips in our servers were either flaky or had bad drivers, or both. We went from 99% uptime to blue screens and reboots every other day.

Another thing that was fun in those days was when some genius would  decide to put the bezier curves screen saver on a server. Lots of users would complain about the server's performance. Admin at the console would dismiss the screen saver and observe no performance problems whatsoever. A few minutes after the all clear, the performance problems would return inexplicably.


----------



## zirias@ (Jan 29, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> Most "user-friendly" Linux distributions ship with Gnome 3 as their default. Yet that is really not doing well here when the user is presented with a choice.


Gnome being extremely Linux- (and systemd-)centric might play a role as well. It just sucks even more on FreeBSD than it already does on Linux


----------



## Cypher (Jan 29, 2022)

Stumpwm -> all the way 








						GitHub - stumpwm/stumpwm: The Stump Window Manager
					

The Stump Window Manager. Contribute to stumpwm/stumpwm development by creating an account on GitHub.




					github.com


----------



## Cthulhux (Jan 29, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> View attachment 12767



I'll steal this.


----------



## Beastie7 (Jan 29, 2022)

Keep in mind, all graphical components outside the base system is upstream Linux. Unless the committers are actively developing and maintaining their own graphics/desktop stack concurrently in -CURRENT. We’ll never see a graphical release of FreeBSD. This is why GhostBSD, etc exists.

The only viable alternative would be to facilitate automagic configuration of one or more desktops from bsdinstall (I’m looking at you, KDE) , which I’ve stated years ago.

helloSystem is the only FreeBSD first desktop project as far as I know. Albeit the upstream DMX stack.


----------



## Alexander88207 (Jan 29, 2022)

IceWM


----------



## RoGeorge (Jan 30, 2022)

When I left Windows 10, apart from picking what OS to replace it with (so to work on the same desktop's hardware), it took a while to settle to a GUI.  Tested Gnome, KDE Plasma, XFCE, LXDE and they were all lacking at a good dark theme out of the box + a search based launcher (don't want to navigate with the mouse).  That was some years ago.

Settled to KDE Plasma, which was very flexible and with most of the settings exposed without tinkering under the hood.  Turning it into a decent dark themed desktop was always painful, impossible without tuning each program to use a dark theme.

I like Plasma, but honestly it feels heavy if not bloated.  What I really want from a GUI is to:
1. - start files or programs (in a flattened hierarchy) by pressing SUPER + few letters from the name + ENTER
2. - have a dark theme where all the windows follow the same dark background + white ink
3. - have delimited windows/buttons/textboxes/etc. I can not work with borderless graphic items
4. - a taskbar that preserves the opening order for each window
5. - has graphic elements made for mouse + keyb and a high res. monitor, i.e. 4k (not for touch screens)

Preferably rounded corners, don't care about fancy effects but a little 3D look for GUI elements would be nice, but not overboard eye-candy like glassy buttons and translucent windows.

Is there any other GUI I should try for the above 5 must have, please?  The simpler the better.
(apart from Gnome, Plasma, XFCE, LXDE which I've already tried)


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 30, 2022)

RoGeorge said:


> 1. - start files or programs (in a flattened hierarchy) by pressing SUPER + few letters from the name + ENTER



KRunner?








I can't think of any desktop environment that _includes_ all five. 



RoGeorge said:


> 4. - a taskbar that preserves the opening order for each window



I do like the _idea_ of that, in the same way that I like preservation of order of tabs in Firefox.


----------



## RoGeorge (Jan 30, 2022)

Yes, just like KRunner does, but isn't KRunner for Plasma only?  My understanding about how the whole GUI thing works is close to zero, so I might be asking nonsense.

Though, in Linux KRunner was using baloo's database for searching/opening files.  Same in FreeBSD I think, without baloo, no files appears in the search bar while typing, only programs appears, so I'm not sure if KRunner can find files without baloo.  Can KRunner be configured to use other database, for example the `locate` database?

Baloo is one of the components that I don't like in Plasma.  In Kubuntu, baloo use to hang without finishing the indexing of all files, or end with a corrupted database after a few weeks, or overwrite manually config files, make the kernel completely unresponsive (as in waiting 5 minutes for the password prompt to appear in a text only tty).

In FreeBSD, baloo only managed to make the whole box unresponsive, so far (about 5 weeks of baloo on FreeBSD) no database rebuild was needed.

That's rather amazing, only baloo is able to stop to a crawl a modern kernel, either FreeBSD or Linux.


----------



## Hakaba (Jan 30, 2022)

I use DWM.

If FreeBSD has a default WM (or weirder DM) that mean the end of choice and the beginning of fork.

What you absolutely need to introduce the Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu (and others) inside FreeBSD.

You have one cli to install KDE or Gnome (or LXCE or...)
And if you are lost, there is `desktop-installer`.

Nevertheless your favourite DE/WM is, there is more users against your flavour.

The only acceptable compromise is to propose to run a desktop-install like tool a the end of the sysinstall tool.
The best solution for me is pointing an entry point in doc for installing desktop in the sysinstall.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 30, 2022)

RoGeorge said:


> … isn't KRunner for Plasma only? …



Yes, in that it requires (amongst other things) x11/kf5-plasma-framework

<https://www.freshports.org/x11/kf5-krunner/#dependencies>



RoGeorge said:


> … Baloo is one of the components that I don't like …



<https://forums.freebsd.org/posts/553239> our conversation about Recoll as an alternative.



RoGeorge said:


> … Can KRunner be configured to use other database, …



Found by Google:

How to install the recoll plugin for krunner in Kubuntu 12.10 - Kubuntu Forums

– that was 2012, I have no idea whether it's still possible. I just picked one of the first search results.


----------



## thindil (Jan 30, 2022)

RoGeorge said:


> When I left Windows 10, apart from picking what OS to replace it with (so to work on the same desktop's hardware), it took a while to settle to a GUI.  Tested Gnome, KDE Plasma, XFCE, LXDE and they were all lacking at a good dark theme out of the box + a search based launcher (don't want to navigate with the mouse).  That was some years ago.
> 
> Settled to KDE Plasma, which was very flexible and with most of the settings exposed without tinkering under the hood.  Turning it into a decent dark themed desktop was always painful, impossible without tuning each program to use a dark theme.
> 
> ...


You could take a look at x11-wm/enlightenment, I migrated to it from KDE. It is a lot less resource hungry than KDE, but the same level of customization. The FreeBSD port version lags a bit, the newest version of DE has, in my opinion, a lot nicer default theme. From the other side, the older theme of Enlightenment better integrates with apps written in GTK and Qt. From your requirements:

1. Is, _Run Everything_ launcher. Keyboard shortcut is customizable. In my opinion, better thing than KDE launcher.
2. Default theme. That can be a problem for other people, Enlightenment don't have a light theme.
3. Check. Again, you can customize it too, to remove borders.
4. Is, even two versions, traditional and icons only. Both configurable.
5. Definitely no touch screen. Can't say about 4k.

Fancy things, by default enabled, but easy to disable.

Disadvantages: of course a much less popular, this mean less themes, plugins, can contain bugs etc. Also, some things are complicated to change/customize, due to a lot of possible options.
But personally I found it better suited for daily usage than KDE: to work, to browsing the net or just playing some Windows games.


----------



## Fuzzbox (Jan 30, 2022)

Hi,

I use dwm with patches.

If a graphical FreeBSD edition had to exist, I would imagine, following the kiss principle, something inspired by Manjaro i3 edition, which is light, integrated and user friendly (despite being a tiling wm), and then being able to install any other DE from there.

Have a nice sunday.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Jan 30, 2022)

tgl said:


> Not I am not assuming this but I'd like to understand if there is an interest toward that category of users.



A good portion of responses here are to new users who wanted to tweak this or edit that before they know how to fix what they've broken. What I've seen over the last 4-5 years as the biggest mistake new people make and something I've advised them not to do repeatedly.

In June 2005 I started as a beta tester for PC-BSD  and stayed with them 7 years before becoming fed up with their new found love of X-Systems fundage, feckless lack of concern for their user base (knowledge a fanboi would not be privvy to) flipped them off, cat-flipping the fence and fast fled that flaccid flock for freedom in FreeBSD, Vanilla, please.


tgl said:


> The reason is always related with the healthy state of desktop space. If this topic has been addressed several time across the years is unknown for me therefore I apology if I sound naive or stubborn.



We've beat that dead horse mercilessly. and every so often some PETA pony soldier will come along to resurrect it.


tgl said:


> The point is an easy setup of a desktop installation (I mean graphics, sound, bluetooth etc...) can make the life easier for many and therefore can be the manifestation of a vibrant interest around it.



I invoked that manifestation by my commands and over 100,000 people have borne witness to my deed.


tgl said:


> From what I am reading here the interest is quite cold that means there will be lesser investment in this space then.


You could not be more mistaken. 









						Beginners Guide - How To Set Up A FreeBSD Desktop From Scratch
					

I'm going to guide you though the process of getting a fully functional FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE desktop up and running, complete with system files and security settings, step-by-step as if you've never used UNIX or the command line. Now let's get started:  Insert your boot media and at the Welcome...




					forums.freebsd.org
				




That's had over 100k views.  I'm constantly thinking of ways to improve it, with the next edit already at my fingertips.  vermaden posts new things weekly and works harder at it than I do.



			Wallpapers by Trihexagonal
		


I haven't tracked my site visitor count and don't use cookies, scripts or ads. I only know the Russian Federation is my second largest audience. (Thanks, Vladimir. Don't forget to have someone pick me up before you nuke Yellowstone...)

If you're really that concerned, tgl, you can pay my hosting fee this year. 
Because I'm in the hole on this deal in hosting alone and all my posts are Moderated here.


----------



## mer (Jan 30, 2022)

Disclaimer: my opinions, based on nothing in particular except perhaps my own experience.  Feel free to agree/disagree/ignore/whatever floats your boat.

"PETA Pony Soldier"  Nice.  I'm not often suprised by phrases that show up, but this one has me chuckling.

I think a lot of people responding here are long term users of vanilla FreeBSD and have made mistakes (how many have done a zpool add instead of zpool attach when you wanted to create a mirror?  I'll admit to this).  This winds up with a lot of us having notes and eventually they wind up in informal tutorials, eventually formal tutorials.  They then make these freely available in the hopes that they help someone else avoid the same mistakes.

I'm guessing the OP has a better understanding now of the stance a lot of us have against a DE/WM installed by default on an install, but that information on how to easily install a graphical user environment should be made easily available.

I think the information is there, is easily available.

If one feels very strongly about having an option to install such, they could write up a proposal, create a prototype and file an enhancement request against the installer.  It may or may not get accepted.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 30, 2022)

mer said:


> … an enhancement request against the installer. It may or may not get accepted.



The installer:

is fast
is simple enough
should be enhanced for ease of use in situations such as dual boot.
IMHO:

we don't need the installer to flow into anything desktop environment-related
beyond installation, the FreeBSD Project needs better onboarding for the gamut of people who require a desktop environment
a flowchart will help.


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

Beastie7 said:


> Keep in mind, all graphical components outside the base system is upstream Linux. Unless the committers are actively developing and maintaining their own graphics/desktop stack concurrently in -CURRENT. We’ll never see a graphical release of FreeBSD. This is why GhostBSD, etc exists.
> 
> The only viable alternative would be to facilitate automagic configuration of one or more desktops from bsdinstall (I’m looking at you, KDE) , which I’ve stated years ago.
> 
> helloSystem is the only FreeBSD first desktop project as far as I know. Albeit the upstream DMX stack.



Looks that someone else went way more beyond Probono and Hello System: https://airyx.org/

By the way I will and would not use such solution.


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

RoGeorge said:


> Is there any other GUI I should try for the above 5 must have, please?  The simpler the better.
> (apart from Gnome, Plasma, XFCE, LXDE which I've already tried)



I am not aware about any other DE available on FreeBSD, however if you are just curious to test out another DE you may try ElementaryOS on a Virtual Machine.


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

Trihexagonal said:


> You could not be more mistaken.



Sorry dude, it looks that you are the only one having an interest on pushing FreeBSD in the desktop space. For the majorities that participated in this discussion is not relevant, and as a matter a fact there is anything in the installer to get even the most basic audio/video setup.

If anyone thought that I was asking about introducing/changing/modifying anything got the wrong interpretation, I was only curious to know which is the general idea here, and I think I got it.


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

mer said:


> I'm guessing the OP has a better understanding now of the stance a lot of us have against a DE/WM installed by default on an install, but that information on how to easily install a graphical user environment should be made easily available.
> 
> I think the information is there, is easily available.



I think there is not a real interest to have a broader adoptions, probably when things in the past were laid out easier or more close to Linux a lot of casual users or distro hoppers got here wasting the time of a lot of people and complaining why things do not work as Linux (probably Ubuntu):



> As of today, FreeBSD Forums staff will actively close down (and eventually remove) topics that serve no other purpose than to complain that "FreeBSD is not (like) Linux" (or Windows, or MacOS, or any other operating system), or that "FreeBSD does not use systemd", or that "FreeBSD has no default GUI", or that "FreeBSD does not encrypt gremlins", etc. This also includes topics that devolve into that kind of debate.



I am personally fine with the default installer, I haven't used the desktop-installer package but I'll give it a shot in a VM to see what benefit could add to a newer installation.

I haven't finished to setup my computer: bluetooth and scanner are still waiting, the audio mixer works because I copied a tweak that I didn't understood; these stuff on Linux generally work 99% of the time out of box, here is different but it is also educative, my issue is the lack of spare time that doesn't allow me to have more time to dedicate to learn well FreeBSD.

But I am fine with this situation, already 98% of my personal daily computing is done on FreeBSD!


----------



## Cthulhux (Jan 31, 2022)

tgl said:


> Sorry dude, it looks that you are the only one having an interest on pushing FreeBSD in the desktop space.



Not quite. I would like to see more competition on the desktop. OpenBSD is a pretty good desktop experience and it would be relatively easy to let FreeBSD have a similar configuration without giving up its server strength.

Then again, there are GhostBSD and MidnightBSD for that.


----------



## Vull (Jan 31, 2022)

tgl said:


> Sorry dude, it looks that you are the only one having an interest on pushing FreeBSD in the desktop space. For the majorities that participated in this discussion is not relevant, and as a matter a fact there is anything in the installer to get even the most basic audio/video setup.
> 
> If anyone thought that I was asking about introducing/changing/modifying anything got the wrong interpretation, I was only curious to know which is the general idea here, and I think I got it.


I have plenty big interest in "pushing FreeBSD in the desktop space" as I'm sure plenty of other users quite obviously do, too.

I do however push back against having a "default DM" or "default WM" as part of FreeBSD, as you've suggested.

You're conflating these two issues. This thread started as a poll on "Which is your current DE or WM?" but somehow derailed itself into being a referendum about whether or not a default GUI front end should be part of the base. Not the same question and now we're going even further off topic.


----------



## Geezer (Jan 31, 2022)

Xfce is creeping ahead in the vote, closely followed by kde. Gnome not getting a look in.

In the handbook section 5.7 on DEs Gnome is listed first, then kde then xfce. Maybe that should be updated to reflect usage (and usability).


----------



## Vull (Jan 31, 2022)

Geezer said:


> Xfce is creeping ahead in the vote, closely followed by kde. Gnome not getting a look in.
> 
> In the handbook section 5.7 on DEs Gnome is listed first, then kde then xfce. Maybe that should be updated to reflect usage (and usability).


At the moment even Mate is ahead of Gnome. That's my horse(!) however, I have to admit, our statistical sample size is a bit too low to draw any definitive conclusions from it.


----------



## Zvoni (Jan 31, 2022)

On my Linux Manjaro box i have Cinnamon (LightDM) as my daily driver.
Considering Cinnamon is upstream at version 5.2.7, and on Freshports at 4.8.6 (being at 2.4 (!!) some 18 months ago), i'll probably do a testrun in the next few months


----------



## bsduck (Jan 31, 2022)

Cthulhux said:


> Then again, there are GhostBSD and MidnightBSD for that.


Please, forget about MidnightBSD, it's a fork (not a FreeBSD custom setup) and it's just a one-man hobby project which is nowhere as usable as the original FreeBSD.



Cthulhux said:


> OpenBSD is a pretty good desktop experience


Initial setup required to get a basic desktop is somewhat more straightforward on OpenBSD, but other than that I always found it unattractive for desktop use: slower, much less software ported, no journaled filesystem, less flexible, more power-hungry on laptops, etc.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Jan 31, 2022)

i3 with mate-panel


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

Cthulhux said:


> Then again, there are GhostBSD and MidnightBSD for that.



I disagreed cause those projects are seen as separated from FreeBSD:



> GhostBSD, pfSense, TrueNAS, and all other FreeBSD Derivatives should be asked on the forums and/or mailing lists for these specific products.


----------



## Jose (Jan 31, 2022)

tgl said:


> I haven't finished to setup my computer: bluetooth and scanner are still waiting, the audio mixer works because I copied a tweak that I didn't understood; these stuff on Linux generally work 99% of the time out of box, here is different but it is also educative, my issue is the lack of spare time that doesn't allow me to have more time to dedicate to learn well FreeBSD.


And here we go. It looks like you read the forum policy but didn't understand it. The majority of us here really don't care how Linux works or doesn't. Use Linux if you want to, but stop telling us about it, that's off topic here. Plenty of Linux forums out there.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Jan 31, 2022)

tgl said:


> … https://airyx.org/ …



For me, airyxOS presents the same problem as helloSystem: 

first and foremost for users of Apple Mac.
<https://github.com/mszoek/airyx/discussions/137#discussioncomment-1424913>, and so on.

I understand the developers' choices, but I'll never switch back to Apple-oriented keystrokes.



Geezer said:


> Gnome not getting a look in.



<https://forums.freebsd.org/profile-posts/3664/>


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

Vull said:


> I have plenty big interest in "pushing FreeBSD in the desktop space" as I'm sure plenty of other users quite obviously do, too.
> 
> I do however push back against having a "default DM" or "default WM" as part of FreeBSD, as you've suggested.
> 
> You're conflating these two issues. This thread started as a poll on "Which is your current DE or WM?" but somehow derailed itself into being a referendum about whether or not a default GUI front end should be part of the base. Not the same question and now we're going even further off topic.



That things can happen where in a off-topic space, I already got my answers.

I reiterate the fact that I am not asking or pushing for any changes in the default FreeBSD installer.


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> For me, airyxOS presents the same problem as helloSystem...



I do not understand these kind of project also MacOS has its design defects, polishing features do not solve them.


----------



## hruodr (Jan 31, 2022)

I am happy with `twm`.


----------



## freezr (Jan 31, 2022)

So far, just to recap, folks here prefer minimalism against complexity, we may say that XFCE4 is a minimalistic DE if compared to KDE, however the sum of stacking and tiling VM is more than the others DEs excluded KDE, GNOME and also Mate (which I do not consider lighter or minimalist as XFCE4).

Gnome, KDE, Mate: *21*
Other DEs: *23*
Stacking/Tiling VMs: *28

*


----------



## garry (Jan 31, 2022)

Zirias said:


> ... FreeBSD *is* a _general-purpose_ OS. It is self-contained, (mostly?) POSIX-compliant, and capable of running any *nix software. .....  One reason I prefer KDE out of the "full-featured" desktops is: they care about portability, they even have a task-force for KDE on FreeBSD.



Over time I've almost always used a customized fluxbox environment but have found Plasma to be very good on FreeBSD.

Now I would like to express thanks to the FreeBSD *Gnome* maintainers who have done a herculean job of bring Gnome 40 up to date and solid reliable on FreeBSD.  I did tire of Plasma needing tweaks and I never got done with the tweaking.  So on Linux systems (Gentoo) I switched to Gnome and really liked the workflow (nice navigation and minimal display to distract attention from The Work).  

I switched to Gnome 40 on FreeBSD and it has been very good.  Those who have found in the past that Gnome on FreeBSD is far outdated and not very good should take a look at what has been accomplished.  FreeBSD is rapidly becoming a great general purpose operating system.

*Thank you FreeBSD Gnome Maintainers!*


----------



## CuatroTorres (Feb 1, 2022)

Excess of choice is not a virtue in this case. A polished desktop base with the ability to extend is needed. Something like the Lisp of desktops. I like all desktops, but Xfce gets the job done efficiently. On the other hand, it needs to catch up, Xfburn seems like a thing of the past. Things like KDE Connect or Kirogi show a desktop from this century.









						Kirogi
					

UAV (drone) ground control




					apps.kde.org


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 1, 2022)

garry said:


> … FreeBSD is rapidly becoming a great general purpose operating system. …



I wouldn't say _rapid_, but the improvements are significant, and nicely focused. 

The areas on the Foundation's technology roadmap: 

*Focus area 1: end user (laptop and desktop)*
𠄶– and so on. 



tgl said:


> … MacOS has its design defects, …



True. ▶ <https://forums.freebsd.org/posts/535465> – why I switched.



tgl said:


> So far, just to recap, folks here prefer minimalism against complexity, …



Also, consider the possibility that users of things such as KDE Plasma tend to go elsewhere.


----------



## hruodr (Feb 1, 2022)

I think, the purpose of desktop environments is to make personal computers more
accessible to people that are not familiarized with computers. It is the idea of
Steve Jobs. Not a bad idea. But this inflation of desktop environments, the fact that
it is even here, where most of the forum members are not computer illiterates, a
continuously recurring discussion issue shows that something went wrong.

I really do not understand for what I need a desktop environment. If there is a win for me, an advantage over twm, then very little, so little, that it is not in relation to the lost due to the overload of my computer, to the price of electricity if I have to use a more powerful computer only to run a desktop environment.


----------



## meaw229a (Feb 1, 2022)

I use KDE Plasma on a daily base. It's the only Desktop I can tell where I want to have my windows positioned  and the size of the window
 when I start a software. Means a window starts in the same size and position where I left it the last time. Even after a reboot everything
is there where I want it to be.
I'm not aware of any other desktop/wm that can do this and I just don't want to miss this feature.

Some people also say KDE is heavy and bloated. This was true for KDE 4 but for sure not for Plasma anymore. Plasma is lite and fast
and if someone likes to keep the bloat out install a minimal version. This way you just get the absolutely minimum Desktop after
installing it plus an x terminal. No games and other crap. That's all and than build it up from there.


----------



## mer (Feb 1, 2022)

Xerox


----------



## freezr (Feb 1, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> I wouldn't say _rapid_, but the improvements are significant, and nicely focused.
> 
> The areas on the Foundation's technology roadmap:
> 
> ...



Looks like the FreeBSD Foundation and the users base have different perspective of the issue.

I followed all the sad path of PC-BSD, TrueOS till Project Trident and Void Linux. So far, based on my knowledge, "desktop" distro have been left on the hands of someone else: Ghost, Midnight, Nomad-BSD. These projects are not recognized as "official" hence them really cannot help the diffusion on the desktop space, if the point here is to offer an OS ready to use to people that think computers should work by default.

I firmly believe that without a default environment and already packed setting you won't go so far. However this topic is really sensitive and people get quickly annoyed by just reading about it.

I know this is digression but the strategy to address this issues in my opinion would be to create an official spin-off that offers to install a DE and assists to install for instance the right video driver, audio, etc. You may call it BeastieBSD or  Beastie OS, would be nice and directly related with FreeBSD.

By the other hand if the intention is to improve adoption over the current base and get more "power users" playing on the desktop side what I stated above is irrelevant and the issue probably lies elsewhere.

Probably the foundation had better to understand what the current users base want and talking with the users base to understand a way that makes all the parts involved satisfied and happy.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Feb 1, 2022)

tgl said:


> Sorry dude, it looks that you are the only one having an interest on pushing FreeBSD in the desktop space.


There are other people who post tutorials in that section  I used somebody after spending 7 years with PC-BSD and never building one from scratch till I came here. It was a trill I still remember today in achieving something I'd been wanting to do for years.

And like I said, vermaden has a multi-part tutorial he promotes and keeps updated. It's one thing to talk the talk and blow wind about doing something about it. There's already another thread of this type where people are talking about how other people could make custom themes. 

It's another to get out there and work it like a carny barker to shamelessly promote yourself site and your site in front of people who have heard you pitch it every time you've shown up the past year.

But you're right. I'm a one man show working without a wire.

The crappiest job in the Circus falls to the owner. He's the guy with the broom in back of the parade. Left to clean up the mess after the show is over, and those clowns stick me with it every time.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Feb 1, 2022)

tgl said:


> 𣀦… Probably the foundation had better to understand what the current users base want and talking with the users base to understand a way that makes all the parts involved satisfied and happy.



The Foundation does so. 

Please see, for example: 









						Call for Foundation-supported Project Ideas
					

Hello all,  There is a thread on the freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list seeking project ideas.  If you have ideas about projects that the Foundation could support, please leave your feedback.  -- Joe (with Foundation hat on)




					forums.freebsd.org
				






tgl said:


> … the strategy to address this issues in my opinion would be to create an official spin-off …



I understand the wish, but I think it better, for now, to spin nothing off. 

For now, continue to make FreeBSD a better basis for desktop/notebook/laptop use cases.


----------



## freezr (Feb 1, 2022)

I'd like to clarify this...

For me the most lovely, funny, interesting part is the installation one, I love to do everything by hand even though I would like to avoid the boring parts.

I got that FreeBSD has more use in a production environment rather than in laptop hence changing the installer would be really dramatic.

In a desktop installation the right hardware solves 99% of the issues, for the other stuff you need to learn those. So far I had real issues with the audio which I solved, but I need to come back because it happened right when recently the server were down. It was related with the audio and the jacks and there wasn't anything in the Handbook.

Maybe if I had installed pulse the issue would be solved in a blink, but please no more pulse anymore... 

What's the point?

The handbook doesn't still cover all the problematic a desktop installation may address, if combined with the lack of automation during the installation process it means that you can rely only on the community, this is not really ideal.

I am not blaming the handbook which is amazing, this is what it is, and the handbook is always getting better, it is more a matter of time.


----------



## garaksarr (Feb 2, 2022)

CDE 2.4.0


----------



## Kaminar (Feb 17, 2022)

It's worth to note that Enlightenment has two branches. Enlightenment E16 (x11-wm/e16) and current Enlightenment (x11-wm/enlightenment). In the poll isn't clear which version is assumed. There are a lot of themes for x11-wm/e16. Personally, I use the x11-wm/e16 which is very robust.


----------



## freezr (Feb 17, 2022)

My fault... whatever version is fine.


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Apr 18, 2022)

For comparison with the results here: 

Breakdown of the poll results concerning desktop/wm preference from each subreddit of these 5 mainstream Linux distributions


----------



## Cthulhux (Apr 18, 2022)

It's hard to compare different polls with different questions.


----------



## GxyNva (Apr 18, 2022)

I'm currently using bspwm. Working great so far!


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Apr 18, 2022)

Cthulhux said:


> It's hard to compare different polls with different questions.



I bookmarked the breakdown a few months ago, without attempting to analyse it. For me, the intentions were to discover a little more about:

differences between the five distros
popularity of KDE Plasma beyond users of FreeBSD.
Until today, I was vaguely aware of only three basics with regard to desktop environments other than Plasma:

Ubuntu uses GNOME
MATE was forked from GNOME
GNOME has an immovable global menu bar across the top of the screen (sparsely populated, limited functionality), plus some stuff running down the left side of the screen.
After spending an hour or so with Wikipedia pages, some focus on screenshots at top right of each page, I _think_ it's like this (correct me, please, if I'm wrong):

Arch is the only one (of the five) that has *no default desktop environment*, ISO images include experimental archinstall a.k.a. Arch Installer, which (amongst other things) allows installation of a DE
three of five (Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu) have *GNOME* as the default DE
one (openSUSE) has *Plasma* as its default DE
the Open Build Service is significant.
The opening poster's primary thread explained why only five distros were charted.




Re: the screenshot to the left, Plasma might be fairly popular with users of Debian _because Plasma is available on Debian's website_ – is that a reasonable assumption?


So, if read the five charts for Linux alongside the poll here, one chart is comparable:

*Arch*, where Plasma was most popular
– with i3, GNOME, XFce and dwm in second, third, fourth and fifth places.


----------



## yaslam (Nov 24, 2022)

RoGeorge said:


> When I left Windows 10, apart from picking what OS to replace it with (so to work on the same desktop's hardware), it took a while to settle to a GUI.  Tested Gnome, KDE Plasma, XFCE, LXDE and they were all lacking at a good dark theme out of the box + a search based launcher (don't want to navigate with the mouse).  That was some years ago.
> 
> Settled to KDE Plasma, which was very flexible and with most of the settings exposed without tinkering under the hood.  Turning it into a decent dark themed desktop was always painful, impossible without tuning each program to use a dark theme.
> 
> ...


GNOME 43 has a really nice dark theme now with libadwaita in my opinion.


----------



## Ogis (Dec 20, 2022)

For now o using KDE. I deleted xfce, because i have problems with removing usb sticks. With KDE all my programs works as expected.Even simple functions like "reboot" and "shutdown" work as they should. It didn't work in XFCE, and I had no desire to modify system files by adding rules. Previously, I only used window managers, but decided to jump into the DE league


----------



## Black_N (Dec 20, 2022)

On my laptop, it's a Fluxbox.
On a stationary PC - Window Maker.
There is still a very old PC on which I am thinking of installing IceWM, but those are plans for the future....
I like Window Managers better than Desktop Environments. The simpler the more dependable.


----------



## Ogis (Dec 21, 2022)

On another computer I also use freebsd (13.1), but with the window manager- awesome wm.


----------

