# FreeBSD 10 opinion



## sk8harddiefast (Dec 6, 2013)

I finally got the network up and running (at least on failover for now). I updated my ports tree after a long time and I went to rebuild all my packages. First opinion from FreeBSD 10 with clang instead of gcc:  faster. Much faster! In less than two hours it compiled almost 450 packages! Compile time was a huge problem for me. Not any more!    :beer


----------



## tzoi516 (Dec 6, 2013)

Do you use devel/ccache?

I'm liking FreeBSD 10.0-BETA4 too. There are a few hiccups, but it's a beta and it's FreeBSD.


----------



## sk8harddiefast (Dec 11, 2013)

Νο. Βut I see a lot of changes. Is faster and better everywhere. Yesterday I updated to 10.0-RC1. I installed MATE on it. A very good desktop environment with very few dependencies. All my system with all my applications, tools. fonts, GTK-engines etc. is only 600 packages  The new pkg system is much better. Finally I hope to see changes on Bluetooth. My favorite keyboard works with Bluetooth but never made it because of a bug in the Bluetooth driver that doesn't let me pair the device.


----------



## SirDice (Dec 11, 2013)

The only issue I came across is that net-p2p/transmission-daemon queues a lot of connections. I've tried increasing somaxconn but transmission doesn't pick up the increased queue. And there's no configuration item in settings.json for this. It works but I get a lot of messages about increasing somaxconn.


----------



## nickednamed (Dec 20, 2013)

I'm running FreeBSD 10 RC2 - and so far so good. However, I've noticed that despite recompiling, then uninstalling and reinstalling www/elinks, it keeps crashing and dumping its core. Perhaps it's a packaging problem, so I'll try it again soon.

Apart from that, it seems to be working nicely for me


----------



## SirDice (Dec 20, 2013)

I noticed that news/pan doesn't work on 10.0. At first I couldn't even build it but that seems to have been solved. Now it builds fine but segfaults when started. Not sure what the cause of that is. It's probably due to the change in compilers. If I remember correctly the first build failures I had all had to do with some weird pointer arithmetic so I'm not at all surprised it segfaults. The issue should probably be fixed upstream.

But, besides a couple of minor issues, it's been running just fine. I think I had the same kind of issues when I moved to 9.0 and the issues all disappeared some time after that (I used to track 9-STABLE). So I'm sure the ones I have now will be fixed when 10.0 is released.


----------



## recluce (Dec 26, 2013)

Installation of FreeBSD 10 on zroot is a breeze now and the clang compiler is a big improvement over gcc.

However, there may be a show-stopper in FreeBSD 10 for *everybody* that needs to install third party binary blobs. pkgng is mandatory in FreeBSD 10, apparently. If anybody knows of a way to use the old package management tools (pkg_add and co), I would like to hear from them. pkgng is not compatible with many (all?) packages that were designed for pkg_add. If you attempt to install and old binary package with pkgng, all you get is an error telling you that there is no manifest.

I know of no tool to convert old binary packages to new ones. So will I now throw away may raid controller card or stop using my $1,200 Nessus Professional Feed? Certainly not, so FreeBSD 10 is unfortunately useless to me at this point in time.

Sometimes I feel that all developers (including those working on the FreeBSD project) live in an ivory tower. They introduce great new features that comprise many man years of effort, but a simple tool too continue using existing binary blobs is not implemented. Sad...


----------



## wblock@ (Dec 26, 2013)

It may be that the seemingly-simple tool is not so simple to create, or requires so much effort and is needed by so few people that it's not practical for volunteers to create.  Have you contacted the suppliers of the binary blobs and asked for new packages?


----------



## recluce (Dec 26, 2013)

wblock@ said:
			
		

> It may be that the seemingly-simple tool is not so simple to create, or requires so much effort and is needed by so few people that it's not practical for volunteers to create.  Have you contacted the suppliers of the binary blobs and asked for new packages?



Have you tried to contact hardware manufacturers about Windows 7 drivers for older hardware? In most cases, it will not happen. Now try the same for an OS that has way less than 1% market share. You have about the same chance as a snowball in hell. Nessus may be a different story.

"So few people that it's not practical for volunteers to create" are using binary blobs? I think not. Especially for servers that go beyond hobby use.

Hardware support for FreeBSD is thin enough as it is - in my opinion it is borderline insane to narrow it down further by creating new incompatibilities, like the current state of pkgng.


----------



## wblock@ (Dec 26, 2013)

So you did contact them and they said "no, we will not release new packages"?


----------



## jb_fvwm2 (Dec 26, 2013)

recluce said:
			
		

> If anybody knows of a way to use the old package management tools (pkg_add and co), I would like to hear from them. pkgng is not compatible with many (all?) packages that were designed for pkg_add.


I'm curious if that command is in version 10 (as src) so that one can install it once version 10 is installed. (Never mind, I just chanced upon a URL to check. The answer is "probably not", but I could be mistaken. Maybe copy the binary from a version 9?)


----------



## ondra_knezour (Dec 26, 2013)

recluce said:
			
		

> However, there may be a show-stopper in FreeBSD 10 for *everybody* that needs to install third party binary blobs.



If the binary part of an old package is otherwise fit to run on FreeBSD 10, there is no reason, why it can't be done. A script or even a port can be created, which fetches the old package (or looks for it in /usr/ports/distfiles if the package isn't freely available on the Internet), un(gzip)tar it and install. I don't see any other reasons, why such an old package can not be repacked this way than binary incompatibility, package unavailability or licensing issues.


----------



## kpa (Dec 26, 2013)

jb_fvwm2 said:
			
		

> recluce said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You can recompile world with WITH_PKGTOOLS set to have the old pkg_* tools installed in base. You can also install the old package tools from the ports-mgmt/pkg_install port if you prefer not to recompile world.


----------



## sgeos (Dec 26, 2013)

I'm having relatively minor problems. Overall I think I picked a good time to switch to FreeBSD. Raspberry Pi support, better ARM support, bhyve, clang, pkgng, LDNS. There are a lot of exciting things going on in FreeBSD 10.


----------



## Beastie (Dec 26, 2013)

recluce said:
			
		

> there may be a show-stopper in FreeBSD 10 for *everybody* that needs to install third party binary blobs. pkgng is mandatory in FreeBSD 10, apparently. If anybody knows of a way to use the old package management tools (pkg_add and co), I would like to hear from them. pkgng is not compatible with many (all?) packages that were designed for pkg_add. If you attempt to install and old binary package with pkgng, all you get is an error telling you that there is no manifest.


Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?! Personally, the old package management system never really bothered me: I used it for many years and wrote shell script "extensions" to overcome its limits. But you can't imagine how many times I've seen people complaining about the limitations of this or that pkg_* tool, about how it sucks, about how it should do this or that, about how much the "<xyz> Linux" package management system is much better, etc.

If these "binary blobs" are so important to you (as they surely are), I suggest you convert the packages yourself. It must not be that complicated.

The new packages are just xz(1)-compressed tar archives containing the application's file hierarchy...

package_name/usr/local/bin/app
package_name/usr/local/man/man1/app.1.gz
package_name/usr/local/share/doc/app/ReadMe
...
... as well as 3 files: +COMPACT_MANIFEST, +MANIFEST, +MTREE_DIRS.
+MTREE_DIRS (optional, I believe) is basically an mtree(8) directory hierarchy map.
+MANIFEST is mostly a description of the package and the SHA256 checksums of its files.
+COMPACT_MANIFEST is just a smaller +MANIFEST.


----------



## recluce (Dec 28, 2013)

*Re: FreeBSD 10 opinion (PKGNG issues)*

First of all, thanks for all the helpful tips to resolve this, especially to @kpa, @Beastie and @ondra_knezour !

Basically, four ways to resolve my problem have been described:


 `make world`, adding WITH_PKGTOOLS to src.conf. Seems to be a straightforward method, does this disable the pkgng tools or does this cause conflicts?

Install pkg_install from ports. The package expires on April 30, 2014 (if it is still there, I currently don't have the FreeBSD 10 server up and running to check). I expect a conflict between old and new package management here, as well. Right?

Manually install the binary blob. Sounds interesting, but I am not sure I understand how to do this.

Convert the package myself. That would be great, if I understood how. The +MANIFEST files I looked at did not look that trivial.


----------



## wblock@ (Dec 28, 2013)

0. Ask the vendors of these commercial packages, who have received money from me, are the most responsible for supporting their own products, and have released FreeBSD packages in the past, to update their current packages to the new format.  Or clarify whether they will no longer be supporting FreeBSD, so I can tell associates to avoid them.


----------



## kpa (Dec 28, 2013)

*Re: FreeBSD 10 opinion (PKGNG issues)*



			
				recluce said:
			
		

> First of all, thanks for all the helpful tips to resolve this, especially to kpa, beastie and ondra_knezour !
> 
> Basically, four ways to resolve my problem have been described:
> 
> ...



No this does not disable PKGNG tools, both set of tools can co-exist but of course it's not a usable set up since the installed packages will write to same locations. You have to know how to disable the PKGNG packages if you decide to use the old packages. You're very much on your own if you go this route.


----------



## recluce (Dec 28, 2013)

wblock@ said:
			
		

> 0. Ask the vendors of these commercial packages, who have received money from me, are the most responsible for supporting their own products, and have released FreeBSD packages in the past, to update their current packages to the new format.  Or clarify whether they will no longer be supporting FreeBSD, so I can tell associates to avoid them.



You keep harping this and it is *not helping*. In an ideal world, this would be the way to go. In the real word, it just doesn't happen that way. If hardware is considered "legacy", sometimes as quickly as three years after release, there will be no new drivers. You either make the ones you have work, stay with an older OS version or throw out the hardware.


----------



## recluce (Dec 28, 2013)

*Re: FreeBSD 10 opinion (PKGNG issues)*



			
				kpa said:
			
		

> recluce said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm. I guess the impact might be limited if the old tools are only used for binary blobs that are not present in the ports anyway. Or am I on the wrong track here? What would break inside pkgng if pkg_add would be used *once* to add a handful of binary blobs?


----------



## kpa (Dec 28, 2013)

If all the packages that you install using the old package tools are from the "outside" and have no conflicting files with the new PKGNG packages then it would be ok.


----------



## wblock@ (Dec 28, 2013)

recluce said:
			
		

> wblock@ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And you have still not answered the question of why you haven't even asked the vendor.  As far as they know, there is no reason to update packages because nobody has asked for them.  Tell you what: identify the specific hardware and vendor, and I'll ask for you.

In the real world, some vendors do support legacy hardware.  But people should also realize that hardware with only proprietary drivers is often a mistake.


----------



## ondra_knezour (Dec 28, 2013)

5. Put the old package somewhere and ask for help on the forums/mailing lists. If it is not ugly mess, somebody will probably help you "repack" it in a new format, having several dozens of minutes to spare. This way may even beat @wblock's very accommodating offer in time


----------



## Crivens (Jan 2, 2014)

recluce said:
			
		

> You keep harping this and it is *not helping*. In an ideal world, this would be the way to go. In the real word, it just doesn't happen that way. If a hardware is considered "legacy", sometimes as quickly as three years after release, there will be no new drivers. You either make the ones you have work, stay with an older OS version or throw out the hardware.


No, it is legacy the moment the check clears. Then you are welcome to shell out more money for the next thing. But @wblock is correct, it is the responsibility of the vendor. And you need to remind the vendor that, even when he has your money, the chances of getting the next sale from you is affected by how he handles this. I have absolute no problem telling a vendor to buffer _[probably "bu*gg*er"? -- mod.]_ off if he treats me that way. They will only change if enough people do this. So, even if you get no support, even if you _know_ that you will not get it, telling the support in no uncertain ways that their conduct is not helping their sales at all _may_ provide feedback.


----------



## nestux (Jan 3, 2014)

Today I will install and try the last RC of FreeBSD 10, I really hope that with this new release I get the sound working in my Gygabyte GA-Z77X-UD5H. This is why I have to use FreeBSD on Virtualhost with Debian 7.3 as host


----------



## throAU (Jan 14, 2014)

recluce said:
			
		

> You keep harping this and it is *not helping*. In an ideal world, this would be the way to go. In the real word, it just doesn't happen that way. If hardware is considered "legacy", sometimes as quickly as three years after release, there will be no new drivers. You either make the ones you have work, stay with an older OS version or throw out the hardware.



So have you told the vendors or not? If no one tells them they may not even know it is a problem. You say @@wblock is not helping, but if all you're doing is telling the forum and not the vendor, you're doing nothing to help the root cause either.


----------

