# Any thoughts on the PC-BSD's Lumina Desktop Environment?



## DaemonKing (Sep 2, 2014)

Hi, everyone!

I was wondering if anyone has gotten the chance to try out Lumina, PC-BSD's new desktop environment. I'm pretty excited for it, but I've yet gotten the chance to play with it. They had an updated blog post (http://blog.pcbsd.org/2014/08/pc-bsd-10-0-3-preview-lumina-desktop/) about it last week that included some screenshots, and it looks like it's coming along quite nicely so far. I understand that GUIs may not be popular around here, but I'm still interested in hearing what people here have to say about it.

By the way, this is my first post. Hello!


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## BSDBernd (Sep 2, 2014)

From what I have seen and heard, this will be my future favourite desktop environment. Here is a great interview that Ken Moore gave on that DE: http://bsdtalk.blogspot.de/2014/08/bsdt ... nment.html

The great thing about that project is that you don't have to port things from the :inux world that others invented, you suddenly can be the creator, you can be innovative and creative and build something that others now have to port. Now you are leading and that may be attracts people from outside the BSD world. For me personally, I think that FreeBSD is not only a great server OS but has also the potential to be a comfortable desktop OS. The Apple people have one DE that they develop further and further, and lots of people, me included, love it. Maybe Ken Moore lays the ground for a BSD-specific DE that everyone will love .


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## DutchDaemon (Sep 2, 2014)

I wonder if a BSD-specific desktop environment will do much in the way of no longer being gagged and bound by an ever more Linux-specific X environment.


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## bsdkeith (Sep 2, 2014)

Welcome aboard @DaemonKing. 

Lumina will be running on top of Fluxbox which is a very solid window manager, (it has been my favourite for many years). It appears to be the BSD equivalent of LXDE which runs on top of the Openbox window manager, so should be a lightweight desktop environment.


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## BSDBernd (Sep 2, 2014)

Are there Linux-isms in the X environment? If that is the case, then it*'*s not easy to be BSD-specific I guess.


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## kpa (Sep 2, 2014)

The Xorg itself doesn't yet suffer from too many Linuxism but installing any window manager or desktop enviroment on FreeBSD is guaranteed to require many build/run time dependencies that are riddled with Linuxism because the developers took the shortest path and wrote their software with only Linux in mind.


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## BSDBernd (Sep 4, 2014)

Speculation-mode: on.

If a BSD system like PC-BSD would be more widely used as a desktop OS, for example because of an innovative DE, then I guess the linuxisms would vanish automatically, or at least there would be an option not to include them in the future simply because of market pressure. Also, you wouldn't have to beg for a BSD Google hangout  version or a BSD Dropbox client anymore. If one could achieve that for example more people would use PC-BSD, then I guess it would, because of the BSD License, be much easier to get a gaming market going because you have not to lay open your code. If I am not completely wrong, because of the BSD License OSX, which has layers which are not open source, could be developed.

A BSD system getting more famous as desktop OS would of course in no way diminish the reputation FreeBSD has as a brilliant server OS. 

Speculation-mode: off


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 4, 2014)

BSDBernd said:
			
		

> If one could achieve that for example more people would use PC-BSD, ... much easier to get a gaming market going


Which is the downside. You get more kids in who only want the pretty blinking lights and no serious efforts.


> A BSD system getting more famous as desktop OS would of course in no way diminish the reputation FreeBSD has as a brilliant server OS.


But then it would have the same problems Linux has. Linux is no longer a Unix-like system and is a thing unto itself. It's riddled with ex-Windows gamers looking for free software instead of solid computer science. In a few years, Linux will turn into just another platform kids run games on and Skype with their friends along with all the horrors and bugs an demons Windows has.


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## BSDBernd (Sep 4, 2014)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> BSDBernd said:
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I shouldn't have talked about gaming, you are absolutely right in pointing out possible horror scenarios. What I really had in mind was a comfortable and more famous desktop BSD OS which is more like Mac OSX but which is not too far away from f.e. FreeBSD that one could not benefit from it. But you are right, this could have serious and negative consequences. And as long as you have virtualbox, you can have Dropbox and Google hangouts without endangering your system .


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 4, 2014)

Heh. Speaking of exactly what I'm talking about: http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/ ... nux-249483



> You have your Windows in my Linux
> Ultimately, the schism over systemd could lead to a separation of desktop and server distros, or Linux server admins moving to FreeBSD


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## BSDBernd (Sep 4, 2014)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> Heh. Speaking of exactly what I'm talking about: http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/ ... nux-249483
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Yes, that looks really like what you were talking about. I came to FreeBSD through Mac OSX. Before OSX I for a short time used Linux and before that Windows. Mac OSX is a perfect stable desktop OS, much stabler in my opinion than what I used before, so I wanted to know more about OSX and finally arrived at FreeBSD. I really like Mac OSX, but I like also open source, so FreeBSD, although it is predominantly a server OS, is the OS of my choice , i like it. It in principle has everything I need for my desktop usage. I use Mac OSX and FreeBSD and nothing else at the moment, and I am totally satisfied. Something inside me says that I will be using FreeBSD as a desktop OS for a long time (if it lets me  ).


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## Juanitou (Sep 4, 2014)

Not a thought, but a link useful for those willing to test it under FreeBSD: Official PC-BSD Blog » New Lumina source repo and FreeBSD port (04/09/2014).


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## BSDBernd (Sep 4, 2014)

I have just installed lumina; as mentioned above, it is in the ports tree now. It is awesome, even in this early stage of development. What is new as it seems is the way you can set up your user menu. You can quickly go to folders you like, access files and applications you like.


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## DaemonKing (Sep 5, 2014)

Some interesting thoughts here. Sorry, I've been away a few days due to work. Thanks, bsdkeith, for the welcome, and thanks, drhowarddrfine, for the link to the InforWorld article. It was an interesting read.

I'm a fan of Fluxbox, so its inclusion as the window manager for Lumina makes me happy. With the additional attention that FreeBSD has been getting due the systemd controversy and the recent call for boycotting it, Lumina's timing may be just right to welcome some of these new users from Linux. It'll be interesting to see how things play out in the future between the two communities, if, of course, we really do get a large influx of former Linux users, which I'm not so sure will happen. Then again, has anyone seen any statistics on FreeBSD's usage lately? It's probably too early to tell how much of an effect this boycott really has. DistroWatch currently has FreeBSD pegged unchanged at 23. I really wish there was a better way to measure this kind of thing.

Anyway, I better stop here, as I feel I'm beginning to wander off topic. It is past midnight here, and I should really get to bed. Until next time.


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 5, 2014)

DaemonKing said:
			
		

> if, of course, we really do get a large influx of former Linux users


It's already happened. I made a remark a year ago on this forum questioning why there were so many Linux users coming to this board saying they were dumping Linux for FreeBSD. I've seen the same on other postings elsewhere. Many are sys admins but, unfortunately, too many were gamers and what appeared to be former Windows users who had switched to Linux and were trying to see if FreeBSD worked just like Win... er ... Linux.


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## CurlyTheStooge (Sep 5, 2014)

....


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## rusty (Sep 7, 2014)

Really liking Lumina (0.6.2) the snapshot management in the file manager is something a lot of desktop users will appreciate and while it's no timeslider (yet) having a GUI-based file restore is good step.


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## retrogamer (Sep 7, 2014)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> DaemonKing said:
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Hey now, let's not lump _all_ gamers into one category.  I've a former Linux user myself who jumped full time in the last year, and the last Windows I used (at all) was 95.  My main reason for switching had everything to do with mainstream Linux distros and DEs becoming more and more Windows-like (and the direction Red Hat seem to be taking that OS in).  I work in web design (unfortunately not a sysadmin), but I did write a pretty decent check to The FreeBSD Foundation.  Just my two cents, anyway.   :beergrin 

Also, I am liking Lumina quite a bit.  After disabling its fake compositing and using Compton, I have what I want in a DE (lightweight, Qt, Fluxbox for a window manager and fairly similar to GNOME 2 in design).


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## BSDBernd (Sep 8, 2014)

What I find awesome in lumina, although in its early stage of development, is the way the user menu works. I have favorite applications, favorite directories, favorite files, where of course 'favorite' can mean 'often used or consulted or read'. At this stage, it seems not to be possible to define your favorite files and directories, this will be implemented I guess. What is also quite impressive is the file manager 'Insight'. There you also see this focus on efficiency and usability. F.e. if your directory you are cruising contains images,  'Insight' offers you the possibility to start a slide show of all the images, if there are no images that option shows not up. This all is quite promising. Lumina is exactly what I am looking for. It is fast, efficient, clear. Great work!


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## fluca1978 (Sep 11, 2014)

I had no chance yet to test lumina, but one thing I see PCBSD is doing over the last years: producing a lot of customized stuff. I mean, they have their own network manager, a lot of applications, and now a whole desktop.
While I understand that it can be really difficult to port something that is too much tied to another operating system, reinventing the wheel can be dangerous too. 
Other desktops are already available, for example Razor http://razor-qt.org/screenshots/, and I believe it will very difficult to port users from a well established desktop, like KDE, to another one.
But hey, I hope I'm wrong and I wish this desktop will help promoting FreeBSD. On the other hand, I'm not sure if other BSDs will jump on board.
This is the good about open source: good code will win last.


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## BSDBernd (Sep 11, 2014)

fluca1978 said:
			
		

> I had no chance yet to test lumina, but one thing I see PCBSD is doing over the last years: producing a lot of customized stuff. I mean, they have their own network manager, a lot of applications, and now a whole desktop.
> While I understand that it can be really difficult to port something that is too much tied to another operating system, reinventing the wheel can be dangerous too.


Why reinventing the wheel? Why not creating something new? Porting means no inovation, no creation of something new. Why not let others port your product? If it is attractive, people will port it, I would. I think Ken Moore doesn't want just to reprogram something. I have installed the version 0.6.2, and I like the direction he seems to be going. I think this all is not just a licensing thing; although having a BSD licensed DE is already great in itself. 


			
				fluca1978 said:
			
		

> Other desktops are already available, for example Razor http://razor-qt.org/screenshots/, and I believe it will very difficult to port users from a well established desktop, like KDE, to another one.
> But hey, I hope I'm wrong and I wish this desktop will help promoting FreeBSD. On the other hand, I'm not sure if other BSDs will jump on board.
> This is the good about open source: good code will win last.


Why so pessimistic? I love that Ken Moore is doing something. KDE is not running away when something new is created. The way he described his project in a radio show convinced me that he is creating something helpful and interesting and something that I will use, it motivated me to donate to the foundation . May be it motivates more people, especially those who want FreeBSD also to have lots of tools to be a comfortable desktop OS.


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## fluca1978 (Sep 11, 2014)

BSDBernd said:
			
		

> Why reinventing the wheel? Why not creating something new? Porting means no inovation, no creation of something new. Why not let others port your product? If it is attractive, people will port it, I would. I think Ken Moore doesn't want just to reprogram something. I have installed the version 0.6.2, and I like the direction he seems to be going. I think this all is not just a licensing thing; although having a BSD licensed DE is already great in itself.



First of all, I am not expressing any bad feeling about the great work done by Ken and others. Again, open source allow you to do that!
Anyway, I see a desktop has a lot of things that are all the same: drag and drop files, mute the volume, adjust the screen resolution, launch an application when the user double click a mime file, search the user content, and so on...
I see this integration is now becoming right in most popular desktop, and therefore I see reimplementing all this stuff a possible project slow down. Hence my doubts about another desktop environment from scratch.


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## BSDBernd (Sep 11, 2014)

fluca1978 said:
			
		

> First of all, I am not expressing any bad feeling about the great work done by Ken and others. Again, open source allow you to do that!
> Anyway, I see a desktop has a lot of things that are all the same: drag and drop files, mute the volume, adjust the screen resolution, launch an application when the user double click a mime file, search the user content, and so on...
> I see this integration is now becoming right in most popular desktop, and therefore I see reimplementing all this stuff a possible project slow down. Hence my doubts about another desktop environment from scratch.



I absolutely understand your concerns.  Have you listened to the following episode of the 'bsdtalk' show? This should answer them. 
http://blog.pcbsd.org/2014/08/bsdtalk-i ... lumina-de/ 

I think there is also the 'BSD now' show Nr. 54 where they talk about lumina. I haven't watched it yet, but I will. 
Since Moore works for PCBSD, his project, which is already valued by many people, does especially not slow down the FreeBSD project , I guess.


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## DaemonKing (Sep 13, 2014)

BSDBernd said:
			
		

> Porting means no inovation, no creation of something new.



I agree with BSDBernd's sentiment above. Rather than constantly play catch-up trying to port a desktop environment with a large number of dependencies over to FreeBSD, that time porting might've been better spent developing something tailor-made for FreeBSD and potentially innovating along the way. I'm not saying that work on porting other DEs should stop, but I am saying that at least one simple, easy-to-use and understand DE should be developed for FreeBSD and be 100% compatible. Perhaps there's one out there that I'm unaware of (which is a real possibility because my knowledge of FreeBSD is still very limited), but Lumina is gaining more attention and momentum.

One of the goals the Lumina project is trying to accomplish is to develop a DE containing as few dependencies as possible. This not only seems to be a goal, but a core value of the project, as I interpret it to be in section 4-d of the FAQ linked here (written back in April), under _Linux dependency bloat_. By keeping dependencies to a minimum and sticking close to standards, this makes Lumina much more portable, something many other DE projects don't really seem to consider during development. Or, maybe it just feels that way. A lot of it, I'm sure, has to do with experience and knowledge of FreeBSD. In that case, I guess it's a good thing that the FreeBSD Journal exists, which reminds me, I need to subscribe.


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## BSDBernd (Sep 13, 2014)

> Rather than constantly play catch-up trying to port a desktop environment with a large number of dependencies over to FreeBSD, that time porting might've been better spent developing something tailor-made for FreeBSD and potentially innovating along the way.



I have the same feeling. The extreme case of this is when you look at Windows and Mac OSX: Microsoft and Apple constantly develop further mostly one desktop of their own, no wonder that they are so good at what they do, especially Apple. And it seems that Ubuntu, Mint, and Elementary OS f.e. do kind of the same thing. If you then have enough resources, you can make available also other desktop environments. I am no expert in FreeBSD, but FreeBSD presumably is so good at what it does because of its main focus, most resources are put there. Because the (developer, porting) community is so big, one luckily has in FreeBSD also forces who provide material for desktop purposes. I find it great that there are so many window managers and DE available for FreeBSD  and PCBSD and other BSD's, I am even more enthusiastic about a BSD specific DE now being developed.


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