# How do you fix a crumbling society?



## Phishfry (Nov 23, 2022)

I feel our society in the USA is seriously breaking down.
Just last night seven killings in a Walmart only 5 miles away.

Some folks believe the gun is the problem while I believe it is an anger problem.

The rule of law seems to be breaking down as I have gangs of dirtbike riders harassing drivers on the roadways.
Doing wheelies and doing donuts in intersections.
Truly like Mad Max.
I got angry the other day and tried to run a dirtbike off a bridge into the water. It didn't end well.
What good are cops when you have gangs of dirtbikes on the roads. They could never catch them.
This is my definition of Anarchy.
I can't drive to work without being assaulted.

Should we revert to vigilante justice? I just start shooting at these folks?
I don't see a way it gets better.
Police are powerless.
We are fastly becoming a third world country.


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## ct85711 (Nov 23, 2022)

It's not just society that is the problem, the entire system (the government and everything together) is broken.  Anymore, I think it would be easier to have everything completely collapse, and pick up the pieces afterwards.  As with building anything, you need a stable foundation to hold the main pillars.  Society may have had a good foundation at the time, but it's been compromised too much that the foundation is no longer stable.


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## Phishfry (Nov 23, 2022)

Ironic how I talk about anger problems while exhibiting them.

So it is a mental health issue.

How do you maintain your mental health?


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## Phishfry (Nov 23, 2022)

I have an elderly neighbor whose house was on fire. I was helping her pull stuff out of the house before fire trucks showed up.

There were more neighbors filming with their phones than helping this elderly lady..

That made me very angry.

Young people seem so self absorbed these days.


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## Crivens (Nov 23, 2022)

Political stuff is not for this forum, so this thread may not be here for long. I'm sorry.

Having dirt bike gangs running amok is what you get for "defund the police", not doing jack about these "mostly peaceful protests" and in general running a country like your piggybank. And like usual, it is joe sixpack taking the hit. All I can say is, read up on the law. Carry a big stick. Speak softly. Be prepared to live with the consequences. Come back home to your family.
I see dark times ahead.


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## Phishfry (Nov 23, 2022)

In the old days people were afraid of going to jail.
The death penalty was the ultimate sanction.
Now it has no meaning. Very few are executed and we warehouse criminals instead.

Should the standards for the death penalty be lowered?
Bring back public executions in the public square?
Allow the victims to extract vengeance? Public flogging for littering?

How do you scare people into acting right?


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## mer (Nov 23, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> How do you maintain your mental health?


I go for a walk, I go "wave a stick in a stream" (flyfish) I go pet my dogs, most of all:
I turn off tv, ignore political threads, and basically tell the world "Get OFF MY LAWN!"



Phishfry said:


> How do you scare people into acting right?


You don't/can't.  The problem is not really the "people" it's the government allowing "some of the people" to act out while stomping hard on the others.

And that's all I'm saying because as Crivens says, this thread is not long for life here.


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## Profighost (Nov 23, 2022)

Honestly, I feel sorry.
It feels different to see it in the news or have it in the direct neighbourhood.



ct85711 said:


> it would be easier to have everything completely collapse


It would be the lazy way - not the easy one.


Phishfry said:


> How do you maintain your mental health?



You need to foucus on those who help and do good stuff.
On the good points. Which also there are.

Easy to say, and not easy to take in the current moment.
But that's the answer.
Anything else would be explantions - needing a long postm not capable to help.


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## Profighost (Nov 23, 2022)

I think death penalty is one main reason in the USA.
Since one knew death penalty will be for sure, why stop?
It doesn't matter how many people you've killed. 
You only can hang once.


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## Profighost (Nov 23, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> How do you scare people into acting right?


You don't.
That's exactly the wrong idea.
I know itÄs hard to you at the current moemnt to thiunk that way, because your sorrows are turning to agression.
But that's exactly escalation - no solution.
Try to get soime distance - as mer said - and think the other way around.


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## Phishfry (Nov 23, 2022)

Profighost said:


> It feels different to see it in the news or have it in the direct neighbourhood.


Yea It was 'My Walmart' but it really don't bother me too much. It was just another body count.
Maybe if he had a knife he would only have killed half the people. I dunno.
Guns are rampant and we are becoming less civilized and more tolerant to crime.

I just wonder if we can cure our ills.
Its easy to roll up your window when a mob of bikes surrounds you.
I am the guy with the window down yelling back.


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## PMc (Nov 23, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> I feel our society in the USA is seriously breaking down.
> Just last night seven killings in a Walmart only 5 miles away.
> 
> Some folks believe the gun is the problem while I believe it is an anger problem.


I think, even before that, it is an isolation problem.



Phishfry said:


> The rule of law seems to be breaking down as I have gangs of dirtbike riders harassing drivers on the roadways.
> Doing wheelies and doing donuts in intersections.
> Truly like Mad Max.


Yes, we had these movies. And, during the last two decades we had an immense load of "apocalyptic" stories in the movies. I don't play games, but probably it's even more so in the games.

I think, phantasy goes ahead of reality, and shapes reality. Jules Verne wrote about flying to the moon, and then we did fly to the moon.

Now I don't think games are a problem, or such. (I don't think guns are the problem, either.)  But the whole move to an "online society" does change people. In all online communication you actually deal with your machine, not with a human. You do not get the impression that there is a living being on the other side.

This happens on the unconscious level. Our mind does recognize things like the mimics or the timbre of a voice, continuousely, and understands what emotions the vis-a-vis has. In online communications it cannot do that. So even if you are in a dialogue, or have a thousand "followers", you're actually alone.

Anger is one thing. Being left alone with one's anger is worse.


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## Profighost (Nov 23, 2022)

Of course.
That's why you start a discussion here about it - to talk about.
That's the point exactly: talk abouit it.
But crivens is right:
This here ain't neither the place, nor the time nor the platform.

mer put it good:
Get your pet dog or your fishing route, or whatver, and switch of news, the internet,---- at least for toady. get some distance and the look for ways.
There are ways.

And I have yet not given up hope.


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## PMc (Nov 23, 2022)

Crivens said:


> Political stuff is not for this forum, so this thread may not be here for long. I'm sorry.


If I am right, then this is a problem we (in the broader sense) helped a lot to create. And you cannot get away with saying, it is not a topic for us. It is called "Technikfolgenbewertung" (looking for the english word.. something along "technological impact assessment")..


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## Profighost (Nov 23, 2022)

PMc said:


> we (in the broader sense) helped a lot to create.


Depends on.
The ones who built the railways are not neccessarily the ones who decided what to transport.

Technikfolgenbewertung is we engineers and scientists are aware off (shall).
But decisions are made by others.


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## Phishfry (Nov 23, 2022)

Good segway into media traumatisation.
We were already knee deep in coverage of the UVA shootings.
They drag this stuff out for weeks and I see no articles on dirtbikes doing wheelies in front of city hall.
They create motifs and captions to use over and over. A cultural brainwashing.
Easy to focus on the 'big ones'.


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## PMc (Nov 23, 2022)

Profighost said:


> Depends on.
> The ones who built the railways are not neccessarily the ones who decided what to transport.


And that is exactly what I would like to have discussed. Because I was always thinking, no, the engineer cannot be responsible for what others do with the tool he creates.

But then there were the discussions about the Los Alamos engineers, and in the 70ies a whole bunch of hippies declared engineers as the evil per se. Until 10 or 20 years later when they started to play with computers themselves.

And at that time I was thinking that the Internet is the solution - because it would bring together all the good ideas, all over the world, unfiltered by the media shops, and it would make people wiser and the world a better place...


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## Holger (Nov 23, 2022)

Most important for survival (both physically and psychically) in these times is to overcome the feeling of being isolated and/or alone.

There are lots of people who feel exactly like you and maybe it is a good opportunity to build or join some groups sharing the same interests, even though these groups may be “politically incorrect” and/or controversial. As long as they don't cross the line towards illegal actions, this should be fine.


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## Profighost (Nov 23, 2022)

I agree with your concerns, PMc
But one cannot easily mix up the development of a bomb within a world war with the internet.
This also ain't nothing dicussalble within a forum.
Such things need books to be read.

But I get your point.

Don't forget:
The internet, as it was thought by information scientists, programmers, engineers, nerds... in the 1990's has not disappeard.
It's still there.
And it's everybody's own choice to use google, facebook, twitter,.... or look for alternatives, which are there, 
and more can be built - by people such as you....?

Besides HERE is the prove there are people thinking different, looking for alternatives, not blindlely following the main stream, only.


I'm off for tonight (texted too much already {again}, sorry)

Phishfry, 
heads up!

The most solution I know I could link to you are in german, only.
But most of this stuff is related to US scientists.
So the solution(s) are within your people.


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## Phishfry (Nov 23, 2022)

The engineering solution was onscreen 35 years ago.
RoboCop

We need thousands of him now.

That is my last say.
Thanks for all your comments.
Feel free to carry on.


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## W.hâ/t (Nov 23, 2022)

It's just the end of a cycle. Days to come will be harsh.

Jordan Peterson Youtube channel - Website
You may find some peace there...


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## scottro (Nov 23, 2022)

The US was built on genocide and slavery, as were many other countries and places little priority on education. Basically, we're a pretty stupid country and so the Onion can print this article every time there's a shooting, just changing the location. 









						‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
					

UVALDE, TX—In the hours following a violent rampage in Texas in which a lone attacker killed at least 21 individuals and injured several others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the...




					www.theonion.com


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## PMc (Nov 23, 2022)

scottro said:


> The US was built on genocide and slavery


No, that is called Manifest Destiny.


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## PMc (Nov 23, 2022)

Profighost said:


> Such things need books to be read.


Probably...


Profighost said:


> Don't forget:
> The internet, as it was thought by information scientists, programmers, engineers, nerds... in the 1990's has not disappeard.
> It's still there.


I was looking out, but sadly I don't find it anymore. I have seen most places disappear. I mean the non-technical places, where one could talk fringe topics. But worse, I don't see people remembering the old ideas from where all this did arise even earlier. Like people reading John Brunner, R.A.Heinlein, etc.
With FreeBSD this also has changed. I remember times when, talking at the right place, developers would frankly admit they have their known backdoors in the code... I don't care if this is considered good or bad, and I don't know if it is still the case, my point is: such places seem not to exist anymore.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 24, 2022)

In my area, a guy shot and killed a cop. His execution is set for Tuesday. People are petitioning for him to go free. And if the cop was their son...

It seems no one wants to take responsibility for their actions anymore. Everyone is looking for fault in everyone else while wanting you to be nice to everyone at the same time. The minority have the rule and the say because the silent majority are afraid to say anything cause the news media and social network will find them out and come down on them hard.

It's difficult to be a decent, moral law-abiding citizen nowadays.


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## Crivens (Nov 24, 2022)

Phishfry You know what I am curious about? Why, with all the possible places around, did you come here with your troubles? Not that I don't have a pretty good idea, but that might be part of the solution.


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## Profighost (Nov 24, 2022)

PMc said:


> such places seem not to exist anymore.


Not all of them, not everywhere, but if you look, you may find.
You're a unix guy.
To me unix philosophy also means:
There is always an alternative.
So always keep an eye open for alternatives, and be ready for them:
Do I really need it?
The way it is?
Can I become friends with another way, or something different?
Or can it even be done completely otherwise?

Nobody can forbid you to found you own web(sites), which target is not spawn rubbish and collect peoples data.



drhowarddrfine said:


> It seems no one wants to take responsibility for their actions anymore. Everyone is looking for fault in everyone else


That's the whole point exactly.

Changes force people to adept, to think, to work on themselves, to change - take responsibility.
But this is inconvient and needs effort.
Besides changes are scaring.
And scare leads to agression.
So people are attracted to stability.
That's what the politicians with easy ways tell their voters:
easy ways, stabilty and security

But then you'd better stayed in the middleages.
The most stable time in civilization we had: nothing changed much over thousand years.
If you want progress - to earn money with it - you get change.
And if your society is not capable to keep up,
e.g. because of you spent the money into economic growth instead of shools,
than sooner or later you get a big gap between what should be and what is.



drhowarddrfine said:


> It's difficult to be a decent, moral law-abiding citizen nowadays.


yes.
But what are the alternatives?

Fact:
90% we learn we learn by imitation - what we see how others behave.
10% only by what we read, or what us is told.
So the solution is as clear as simple:
Reduce the crap watched on TV (Youtube, Cinema, netflix, whatever (It's about the program, not the channel))
and live exemplary. (Kant)
Anything else ends in catastrophy.
In my eyes there is no need to discuss the details about the catastrophy's  whens and hows.
One has to prevent it.


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## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2022)

Crivens said:


> Why, with all the possible places around, did you come here with your troubles?


I don't consider them troubles. More like nags. 
Perhaps I was hoping someone could provide a fresh insight into a solution for societies ills.
I consider this forum my home. So asking like minded peoples opinions seemed natural.
Consider it a squishy human interest post.
Watching the rule of law collapse so quickly is very startling to me. Especially as I grow nearer to retirement.
Will there be anything left for me to retire too? Escape from USA needed?
When I get older I cannot defend myself. Will I be defended by police or coaxed into euthanasia like Canada?
The cruelness of our society is very stark.


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## Profighost (Nov 24, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Escape [] needed?


Where to?
Into a country where money means liberty? (South America, Africa, Asia? There is no lack of such countries.)
And when you run out of money, your "liberty" also ends, because you stop being the "Colonel".
Then you're faced with the hard reality in those countries, such as their examplary medical system.

Europe?
We over here see the USA as the role model, imitating much you do, running into the same troubles, doing the same mistakes...

Three weeks ago the kids mithered their neighbourhood by playing halloween, because they've seen it on tv.

But you're free not to do it.
I've installed a switch to interrupt the door bell. It's not my job feeding middle class stranger's mendicant kids with sweets out off my pay.
I was thinking of hanging a sign in front my door with a crossed out pumpkin:
"We are no yankees here!" - but my wife was against it 

I am waiting for europeans celebrating thanksgiving - it will come when USA have too much turkeys they cannot sell 
If you ask people what it is about, you'll probably get the answer: feeding on turkey and boozing - the usual
What's christmas about?
feeding, boozing and getting presents.
NO!
The origin - christian - idea is to make a gift, not to get one!

Sometimes I hear the point:
"When too many foreigners are here, I move into another country."
Think about it:
Because somebody is annoyed of foreigners he decides to become one himself. 

For myself I am a foreigner living in another country for over 15 years.
And still I am an alien, a nusiance, actually.
People often turning their backs on me immediately, just because of my different accent, only.

Living in another country is an expierence I can recommend to many.
It teaches you a lot about your own country,
the way you thought about it when you were home,
and how it feels to be an alien.

And I live in a neighbourcountry, only.
(almost) the same language, same culture, same religion, same colour...
I have an idea what it could mean to be black beyond whites and/or muslim beyond christians...

But - and that's the important part - the answer is not:
"They don't must come."
One need to ask why people leave their homes they also love as anybody else.
And what we can do, they can stay at home.
-> responsibility

We need to find ways to live together - cause that's what we do.
What is the alternative, the not-living-together?
Do we want this?
So we must find solutions, alternatives,
and not avoid problems by running away and blame others.

There are many solutions.
Known for a long time.
They only need to be taken seriously and be done.

peace out.


P.S.:
There is something like Offtopic - means to me anything can be discussed within.
You moderators may consider if Offtopic still occurs within "Latest Posts".


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## hardworkingnewbie (Nov 24, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> I feel our society in the USA is seriously breaking down.
> Just last night seven killings in a Walmart only 5 miles away.


The main problem and also sometimes strength of the USA is the resilience of its constitution for changes. It is nowadays nearly impossible to change at all. 

In the constitution are many elements, which made sense in the old days but not in the modern era, which you could not get rid of, for example like the electoral college.

Another problem is the interior and cultural split between metropolitan and rural areas, amongst others. You've got not one nation in the borders of the states, but many different ones.

How to fix it? Only way I can think about is starting a revolution, all others are doomed to fail.


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## Crivens (Nov 24, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> How to fix it? Only way I can think about is starting a revolution, all others are doomed to fail.


Revolutions are an ugly thing, and you may well end up worse than before. Ask the french. Or the russians, for that matter. 
Maybe we are better off when we would honor things that are good for a society, not those which are bad. Those need to be shunned. It will take some time, we did not arrive here over night.


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## 6502 (Nov 24, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> In the old days people were afraid of going to jail.
> The death penalty was the ultimate sanction.
> Now it has no meaning. Very few are executed and we warehouse criminals instead.
> 
> ...


I think the problem is in drugs. They make people "brave" and ignore jail and other consequences.


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## PMc (Nov 24, 2022)

Profighost said:


> Not all of them, not everywhere, but if you look, you may find.


Yes, one may. Or one may not.



Profighost said:


> You're a unix guy.
> To me unix philosophy also means:
> There is always an alternative.
> So always keep an eye open for alternatives, and be ready for them:
> ...


That is engineering. So there is a systemic difference: with engineering, you are the one who is outside of the system you design. With society you are inside, are part of it.

I was imagining You could just tell me: look, there is this and this and this for an example.



Profighost said:


> Nobody can forbid you to found you own web(sites), which target is not spawn rubbish and collect peoples data.



I probably can. But to "not spawn rubbish and collect peoples data" is not the point. There are so infinitely many bugs in current society, that I'm horrified and overwhelmed, I can't sleep at night. And I am utterly alone, and when I only start talking to people about these bugs and that they should be fixed, then people will get disappointed and no longer talk to me. I didn't talk to anybody (about personal things) for a couple of years - because there is nobody. Putting flesh to it: I think the last time was in 2019, when I asked some people I vaguely know about the whereabouts of another lady I am very fond of (she's an artist and way beyond my reach). Anyway, last year that artist lady was stabbed by a religious fanatic, she's dead now.

So this is what's going on.


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## fernandel (Nov 24, 2022)

"Hungry man, reach for the book: it is a weapon.", Bertolt Brecht


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 24, 2022)

Maybe the problem is trying to fix. If it's broken accept it as it is ?


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 24, 2022)

Profighost said:


> Reduce the crap watched on TV (Youtube, Cinema, netflix, whatever (It's about the program, not the channel))



Actually, just don't watch television news and social media outlets like reddit (especially reddit!).

Learn how things are actually are by going outside and looking around. You'll find nothing that you saw or read about is actually a reality in your neighborhood or about you. The reason it's on those sources is because it's a one off thing that gets people excited and that's why it's there. If not for TV "news" or social media, you'd never hear about it otherwise and you wouldn't care anyway.

EDIT: Example. My niece-in-law (if there is such a thing) was a journalism degreed news producer for the local NBC affiliate. She spent her days surfing the internet looking for shopping deals to show. Which goes to show how low TV "news journalism" has gone.

When I worked in television, long ago, all the reporters were ex-newspaper men.


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## forquare (Nov 24, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> How do you scare people into acting right?


This is a terrifying position, to me.  It reminds me of the old "if you don't believe in God then how do you resist rape, pillage, and murder?"


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## PMc (Nov 24, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> Maybe the problem is trying to fix. If it's broken accept it as it is ?


Sadly, that doesn't work. Because, when it becomes unbearable, we need at least the right to kill ourselves.
And that again is opposed by another group of people, for understandable reasons:


Phishfry said:


> When I get older I cannot defend myself. Will I be defended by police or coaxed into euthanasia like Canada?



Also there are people who think our society being so incrediby beautiful that only madmen could want to kill themselves, and therefore they should be locked up instead.


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## PMc (Nov 24, 2022)

forquare said:


> This is a terrifying position, to me.  It reminds me of the old "if you don't believe in God then how do you resist rape, pillage, and murder?"


That one would be a interesting question. And, since actually lots of rape, pillage and murder was committed in the Name of God, the opposite would be just as interesting: if you do believe in God, then how...

But nowadays the stance is: _other people_ are inherently evil. Therefore they must be forced to behave in a way so that I am not suffering.

And while the law&order folks always had a fancy with this logic, now the leftist have found their pendant: _other people_ are inherently evil and destroy the planet. So we must suppress them and make them hunger and freeze in order to (presumably) save the planet. 
And they don't even believe in God.

So in the outcome you're always an evil person to most other people. And then the interesting question becomes: why should you resist rape, pillage and murder, as you're an evil person already?


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## W.hâ/t (Nov 24, 2022)

I like this answer to the question "Do you believe in God?"




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coTKSH_YN7E_


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## scottro (Nov 24, 2022)

A 10 minute video?  Can you summarize in a sentence or three? Sorry, not going to watch it.
Note that Fox news, for example, was really playing up crime before the elections, now they don't. Hrrm.
For those shocked at all the shootings, who did you vote for?  What are their positions on it? That's why we have so many shootings. Oh, did y'all note that stand your ground laws don't seem to apply, save to white men?









						The Case Proving ‘Stand Your Ground’ Is for White Men Only
					

The new Netflix documentary “State of Alabama vs. Brittany Smith” uses one tragic case to reveal the misogynistic and racist double standards of the legal system.



					www.thedailybeast.com
				




Seems like many in the US want to bring Sharia law here. Responsibility? Law enforcement. In NYC, cops were put on a train to catch a slasher. He started slashing someone, so the brave police quickly reacted, hiding in the conductor's booth. Later a court said, they're not obligated to protect anyone. Fortunately, the victim was a martial artist, and subdued the slasher, when the brave police then quickly came out and arrested him.

On the other hand, they're quick to act when an unarmed person is selling loose cigarettes, executing him on the spot. Do y'all think I'm making this up?

NOTE: There is a photo below in the link of the cops putting the victim in a chokehold for those who find it upsetting.









						Killing of Eric Garner - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				









						Maksim Gelman stabbing spree - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Quick summaries for the impatient.
Garner was selling loose cigarettes and police put him a chokehold, killing him.

Gelman killed 5 people. He attacked Lozito on the subway, stabbing his hands and face. Lozito fought back, taking Gelman to the ground, and our heroic cops then came out of the motorman's booth and arrested him. Later, a judge ruled that they weren't obligated to protect Lozito, as he sued them for hiding in the motorman's booth when he was attacked.


> On July 25, 2013, Judge Margaret Chan dismissed Lozito's suit, stating that while Lozito's account of the attack rang true and appeared "highly credible", Chan agreed that police had "no special duty" to protect Lozito.



But again, for those upset at the shootings, look at who you are voting for. And who they put on the supreme court.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 24, 2022)

In many cases, the law is a matter of managing expectations. I expect you to stop at that stop sign. If you don't, accidents will happen. Thinking that stop sign is stupid and you'll ignore it is equally stupid.


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## PMc (Nov 24, 2022)

scottro said:


> A 10 minute video?  Can you summarize in a sentence or three? Sorry, not going to watch it.


No need to. That's Jordan Peterson, I'll get to that in a minute.


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## Jose (Nov 24, 2022)

scottro said:


> Later, a judge ruled that they weren't obligated to protect Lozito, as he sued them for hiding in the motorman's booth when he was attacked.


"Settled law."








						Warren v. District of Columbia - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## PMc (Nov 24, 2022)

Lets have a look at that Jordan Peterson first, and then at the other side. As I said before, it is all so full of horrible bugs one might want to despair.

I don't know which God this Jordan Peterson believes in, but apparently it is the same got as Manifest Destiny believed in: a God who would consider it a _good thing_ to kill the Indians and steal their land. Who would consider it a _good thing_ to enslave the Africans have have them do all the work. Who would consider it a _good thing_ to just use up the Chinese people and let them die while building the railways. Who would consider it a _good thing_ to wage war in all parts of the world and killing lots of people for the sake of "democracy", And so on and so on.
Because, if you carefully watch his videos, what is the solution he comes up with for the environmental problem: it's what is called "fracking". That means, destroying the soil and the ground water entirely and practically making the place uninhabitable, just for the sake to rip off still a little bit more of ressources from the earth in order to make money from. 
And then he concludes that this would achieve a lot more for the climate than all the governmental efforts. Given, the the latter may be just as selfishly botched and useless, but what good does this proposal? 
Okay, it allows certain people to make a lot of money. And that's all. At some point these "natural gas" ressources will be used up, just like other oil and gas ressources will be. And then, there will be still the same problem, there will be a bunch more of CO2 produced, and a lot of gound made a desert and thrown away. 
So it is just the usual "destroy and throw away" strategy. Destroy and throw away Vietnam, destroy and throw away Afghanistan. Destroy and throw away Iraq. And so on and so on.

So thats one example. Now lets look in another direction:



Profighost said:


> But - and that's the important part - the answer is not:
> "They don't must come."
> One need to ask why people leave their homes they also love as anybody else.
> And what we can do, they can stay at home.
> -> responsibility


This is widespread telltale, and it is factually wrong, and a misleading abuse of sentimentality.
Why do "people leave their home"? First and most important: it's not "people", it is to the biggest part young men (but this fact is consequently suppressed by the propaganda media). Then, it is perfectly normal for young men at some point to leave their home, venture out into the world, to somewhere make a fortune or win a kingdom or the like. Everybody knows this, even the fairytales are full of it. 
So what we have to deal with is mostly not just people, but soldiers of fortune. But we are getting told that these young men would actually be poor homeless victims, and that we should take "responsibility" for them!?! They're already priviledged, while our elderly have to search for stuff in the waste-baskets.

So it's all the same: every side is telling us lies, all the time. 
And then they espect us to become fans of their lies (termed "followers"), and they expect us to fight _for them_ - to fight all the other people who happen to believe in a different lie!
And that way society is split into separate and hostile fractions - and that is done deliberately.


----------



## hitest (Nov 24, 2022)

I believe we fix a crumbling society by getting involved.  Vote for politicians who care about representing your interests. and improving your community  You have a say in making things better.
Become active in your community and make a difference.  I'm a recovering addict.  I've been clean 7 and 1/2 years.  I give back by working with other addicts and encourage them to overcome active addiction.  When you care about others and help them it does make a difference.  We are not powerless.


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## W.hâ/t (Nov 24, 2022)

PMc It took you more than 10 minutes to "carefully" say nonsense. At no point he says that killing people is a good thing...


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## Vull (Nov 24, 2022)

I say, "Fooey."


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## Crivens (Nov 24, 2022)

We are starting to fall into the rabbit hole here, so we need to clean up soon.
There is a global effect of society getting worse, it seems. But there is no use in the blinders shown here. Left versus Right, Liberals, Conservatives, does not matter. Smokescreens. The problem is outside of that, because it is everywhere. So maybe start thinking outside of these blinders.


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 24, 2022)

Is American society different from European according to your opinion ?


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## hardworkingnewbie (Nov 24, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> Is American society different from European according to your opinion ?


Of course it is. The whole idea of founding the USA was to do many things differently compared to how it was done back then Europe, the USA were the Anti-Europe: democracy, human rights, long and constant need for settlers...

Just compare for example North American cities with European counterparts, this is an own branch of studies in geography, because they are so different.

So while it is of European origin, it evolved in many areas completely different, which remains until today.


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## PMc (Nov 24, 2022)

Crivens said:


> We are starting to fall into the rabbit hole here, so we need to clean up soon.
> There is a global effect of society getting worse, it seems. But there is no use in the blinders shown here. Left versus Right, Liberals, Conservatives, does not matter. Smokescreens. The problem is outside of that, because it is everywhere.


So then where is it?
What vector would influence the entire planet?
Google?


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## Crivens (Nov 24, 2022)

The internet for sure. We humans are build for a set of about 50 peers, that is our tribe, family. Once you fill these slots up with like minded people, you suddenly feel that 100% of your peers are thinking like you do. They define where the center of the group is. The problem is that you can find 50 total nutjobs who like X on the internet. Then it may be that you for the life of yourself can not understand why that is fringe, because 100% of your peers think like that. On some level you realize this is wrong, so you may end up attributing reality as wrong (lived experience anyone? feelings?) So either we adopt _real fast_ or we end up with a fragmented society because people think their physical neighbours more alien than the rest of their online friends. Which they never met. 

Ok, that is my 2c for now. Keep politics out. Good night.


----------



## Vull (Nov 24, 2022)

So commenting on a "how-do-you-fix-a-crumbling-society" thread is cool, but mixing in politics is not? Thanks I was not sure.


----------



## Alain De Vos (Nov 24, 2022)

I consider politics , I'm pro libertarian , or I'm pro republican. The rest is just a sharing of some ideas. Which is interesting.


----------



## Vull (Nov 24, 2022)

I'm just killing time waiting for the big meteor to strike Earth, and send it back to the Stone Age. Some people I know are kinda looking forward to that.


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 24, 2022)

Without a meteor, dinosaurs would not have died. And small mammals would not have flourished. As descendants of these small mammals we would not have existed. So thank the meteor which strike earth. Otherwise I would not even write message.
Bye the way, when you eat chicken, it's in fact a dinosaur also...


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## Vull (Nov 24, 2022)

Maybe after the next meteor the _chickens_ will inherit the Earth.


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## PMc (Nov 24, 2022)

Crivens said:


> The internet for sure. We humans are build for a set of about 50 peers, that is our tribe, family. Once you fill these slots up with like minded people, you suddenly feel that 100% of your peers are thinking like you do. They define where the center of the group is. The problem is that you can find 50 total nutjobs who like X on the internet. Then it may be that you for the life of yourself can not understand why that is fringe, because 100% of your peers think like that. On some level you realize this is wrong, so you may end up attributing reality as wrong (lived experience anyone? feelings?) So either we adopt _real fast_ or we end up with a fragmented society because people think their physical neighbours more alien than the rest of their online friends. Which they never met.


Agreed, this is certainly a valid point. 

Another one I was thinking along: the ever-growing speed of (so-called) innovation. In my youth there were two TV channels, and people would talk about what they had seen the last evening. Now there are 2000, and it is impossible to follow all the things that are presented as new (and often even aren't).
I might assume, that at some point the mind just stalls, like from a DDoS, and does no longer reflect on where that input might connect to (or if it makes sense at all).
Also, this is somehow natural: we are getting told that we must adapt to constant learning, but the mind is not naturally designed for that. In most cases, one would learn some profession, until the age of maybe around 20, and then stay with that and only perfection it within a rather narrow scope (plus one or two hobbies).

When I travelled Asia, in some cases when I asked people in a village how to get to the next city, they couldn't tell me - probably they had never been there. For a tribal society that is just fine - if you ever need to go there, there will be somebody in the village who knows. And in any case they know where they are at home.
Now Phishfry says, this place here feels like home to him. And I can understand that well, on occasion I feel similar. But this place has no location. So now grabbing the stance about "responsibility" from above: how can you take responsibility when you do not have a fix on the location where to start from?


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 24, 2022)

I live for more than 50 years in the same town. I'm aware my worldview is limited. But i think i will die in this same town.
At this very moment there are places with war going on, but not here and not now.
If I feel there is a better place, i take the car or plane and i'm gone.


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## Vull (Nov 24, 2022)

We're all just living on borrowed time.


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## Tieks (Nov 24, 2022)

Crivens said:


> Once you fill these slots up with like minded people, you suddenly feel that 100% of your peers are thinking like you do.


Echo chambers. Most MSM are one these days. Add to that the complete intolerance of other views. It would help when people would consult more different news sources.


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## gpw928 (Nov 24, 2022)

Tieks said:


> It would help when people would consult more different news sources.


I once said (when Trump was president) that I thought Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg presented a greater threat to humanity than Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump combined.

That was before Vlad invaded Ukraine.  However, I have not changed my mind...


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## Phishfry (Nov 24, 2022)

I do appreciate all the thoughts here. I marked it as solved but we know that is not true.


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## ralphbsz (Nov 25, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> Is American society different from European according to your opinion ?


Is American society different from American society? Absolutely. 

I often joke that Boston is closer to London than to San Francisco. Geographically it is not quite true, but culturally it has a large grain of truth in it. Similarly, Lissabon is closer to to Salvador de Bahia than to Warsaw, culturally.

On the other hand, here in my neighborhood, the slums of Oakland (high unemployment, ethnically interesting, lots of drugs and crime) are very different from Cupertino (headquarters of Apple, the schools are among the best in the world, the only crime that occurs is tax evasion and investment fraud). This is the tip of a cultural and sociological iceberg. The liberal / wealthy / urbane parts of the US (Boston, Manhattan, Raleigh/Durham, Santa Monica, the San Francisco Bay Area, Seattle) are super different from the conservative / poor / rural parts of the US (Kentucky, Mississippi, New Mexico). And things like Wyoming or Alaska don't even exist in Europe, but they have their own very unique culture. The same massive differences exist within states too, and the Oakland <-> Cupertino example above is just the extreme case.

What is true is that within one country (like Belgium or Poland) Europe is usually more homogeneous, in particular sociologically than the corresponding areas in the US (Poland is about the same population as California, Belgium like Ohio).


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## Crivens (Nov 25, 2022)

Vull said:


> So commenting on a "how-do-you-fix-a-crumbling-society" thread is cool, but mixing in politics is not? Thanks I was not sure.


Ok, this seems to need some explaining. Political structures are OK, but things like "The libtards are doing this" or "It's all the $DEMOGRAPHIC fault" is not. So when you want to pin some blame on a political party, be precise what they do that is worthy of blame. Maybe they also do things that are good. Making things too easy for yourself is very risky. That way you end up with people shooting their neighbour for looking like a democrat.


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## cmoerz (Nov 25, 2022)

I love the fact, that this thread has already been marked "solved"...


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## Hobbes (Nov 25, 2022)

PMc said:


> So then where is it?
> What vector would influence the entire planet?
> Google?


My two cents; the «system». And as per system I mean the socioeconomic system that chopped the social links and transformed all of us into a dumb consumers. All is a commodity or a service that must be paid.

Is today's internet part of the problem? sure, but because it's a booster that had made the transition from citizens to dumb consumers, and from a society to a herd of isolated and extremist individuals faster and easier (by far more effective than the TV). Google is not the problem, it's an agent.

In my country, before 80's, there were a lot of citizens/neighbors associations working to improve the living conditions in the cities and neighbourhoods. Then, the government started to promote consumers associations and to ignore neighbourhoods associations... back then my father told me; be aware, nothing good will come if we consider ourselves as consumers not as citizens. Don’t know in USA, but in Europe we (the people) have been part of the problem (we were delighted with our affluence, no time to take care of our rights).

So, the problem IMHO is that, now, we are not a society, we are a bunch of consumers and for the «system» we are as valuable as the money we have.


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 25, 2022)

What strikes me is that we can send a rocket to the moon but some simpler problems don't get solved ...


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 25, 2022)

Some systems should be totally reconstructed from the ground up. With newer insights.


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## angry_vincent (Nov 25, 2022)

i vote to close this thread for comments.


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 25, 2022)

> objection your honor. let's hope it doesn't get overruled.


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## PMc (Nov 25, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> My two cents; the «system». And as per system I mean the socioeconomic system that chopped the social links and transformed all of us into a dumb consumers.


Wow. Hobbes, I'm impressed. That is what I needed. This almost sounds like a useable root cause.



Hobbes said:


> be aware, nothing good will come if we consider ourselves as consumers not as citizens. Don’t know in USA, but in Europe we (the people) have been part of the problem (we were delighted with our affluence, no time to take care of our rights).


You put something into words, that I observed, and felt, but could not really express. Last decade I often travelled eastwards, for leasure. And there I found this change just happening. I found it in Poland, where old-style bus stations were replaced by ten-storey glass&metal shopping-malls. I went to the Baltics, and there it was not yet gone so far, and I talked to people (fellow pagans) there and told them that I like the old style better. They pointed me to Belarus: go there, you will like it, you will find still more of the old ways there.

So this apparently is still happening.



Hobbes said:


> Is today's internet part of the problem? sure, but because it's a booster that had made the transition from citizens to dumb consumers, and from a society to a herd of isolated and extremist individuals faster and easier (by far more effective than the TV). Google is not the problem, it's an agent.


Nicely put. So, near 2000, when we "hackers" were still fascinated by the _technical_ possibilites, somebody else must already have figured how to not only use this infrastructure as a marketing instrument, but also to shape society.
Looking at these "agents", it seems they are just a couple of individuals who were lucky to do the right thing at the right moment, and then got incredibly rich. Looking closer, practically all of them came from american private universities.



Hobbes said:


> In my country, before 80's, there were a lot of citizens/neighbors associations


Maybe You should explain this a little more. I have no idea what "neighbours associations" might be - this seems to be something country-specific.



Hobbes said:


> So, the problem IMHO is that, now, we are not a society, we are a bunch of consumers and for the «system» we are as valuable as the money we have.


NPCs. And it's no surprize that occasionally one might have enough of being an NPC.

Back in the old century, somebody told me: look at a news paper and their _customers_ - these are NOT the readers, these are the people who buy advertisement space.
Now in the new century, somebody told me: look at facebook and their users. They are not customers of facebook, they are the _product_.
Ring a bell, anybody? There was a movie, "the Island", where people are kept as _products. _(It's actually a script for what to do when one might like to do anything like such to a society. As I said further up: science-fiction is prophecy)


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## smithi (Nov 25, 2022)

cmoerz said:


> I love the fact, that this thread has already been marked "solved"...



"Solved How do you fix a crumbling society?"

First time I've looked in on this shitstorm again since it started.  After a good belly laugh at the label, I just had to see if any progress had been made in solving the problems of too many growth-obsessed humans on far too small a planet.  Nothing so far ...


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## hardworkingnewbie (Nov 25, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> My two cents; the «system». And as per system I mean the socioeconomic system that chopped the social links and transformed all of us into a dumb consumers. All is a commodity or a service that must be paid.


The system has a simple name: capitalism.


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## Hobbes (Nov 25, 2022)

PMc said:


> Maybe You should explain this a little more


They are groups of neighbours associated in a legal entity. Several years ago (last years of the dictatorship and early years of democracy, here in Spain), most of this associations worked with the purpose of improve living conditions in each neighbourhood, even trying to participate in the development of the cities (urbanism, social services, etc.).
Nowadays, their main activities are festivals, holiday trips, and other entertainments. Even a lot of companies promote their products through the associations. Quite a change.



PMc said:


> They pointed me to Belarus: go there, you will like it, you will find still more of the old ways there.



Some time ago I heard a Spanish woman saying something similar about Belarus in a TV interview.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 25, 2022)

I was just telling my wife, a few days ago, that we used to only see things promoting entertainment and having fun. Now all we see is how to promote ourselves, make more money, get a better job and start your own business. Where's the fun and relaxation in all that? This is a problem.


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## PMc (Nov 25, 2022)

Hobbes said:


> They are groups of neighbours associated in a legal entity. Several years ago (last years of the dictatorship and early years of democracy, here in Spain), most of this associations worked with the purpose of improve living conditions in each neighbourhood, even trying to participate in the development of the cities (urbanism, social services, etc.).


Ah, thank You, I think I get it. In Germany this is a bit different, but there is something similar: the "Verein". 
Any three (or five?) people can create a "Verein", and can then declare it a legal entity and gather members. This is most often used for doing all kinds of sports, singing, or cultural tradition. But practically everything you want to do together in a group, can be done as a Verein. Also, almost everything you want to do as a community service, on your own discretion as a NGO, would be made a Verein - and in that case, if you provide orderly paperwork, it may receive tax-deductible donations. This is the most practical legal construct when you do not want to operate a business with the focus on earning money.
A Verein could run a business, but that is usually not done because the liability laws are not favourable. In such a case it would make more sense to spin-off something like a Ltd..


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## Tieks (Nov 25, 2022)

gpw928 said:


> I once said (when Trump was president) that I thought Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg presented a greater threat to humanity than Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump combined.


Yes, because of their influence. But I think that things are changing.

Murdoch represents the MSM. These are steadily losing audience, because youngsters hardly read newspapers or watch TV. To make up for the decline media outlets started to provide particular groups with exactly the news and views these people want, leaving out everything else. That is how we got the biased echo chambers that most media outlets are right now. But that won't work in the long term, even their audience will notice that the reports aren't credible and complete. 
I read somewhere that CNN is considering a switch back to raw and fact-based reporting. They could be first in a long row.

Zuckerberg (Dorsey and Musk too) seems to be aware that the more biased they get, the more customers will walk away. And they need customer data for targeted advertising. They are having problems with bots, which will hurt advertising revenue. This bot problem is partially caused by the decline of the old MSM: Politicians and NGO's want to keep their influence, hence switch to social media to spread their gospel. So we can often see exactly the same message posted on different sites by different people. Or the politically motivated messages, including highly precise data, posted in just the wrong place. Social media companies will address that problem sooner or later, and consumers will learn to recognise the bots.

It will take time, but internet-based media will put an end to the influence that media monopolies still have.


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 25, 2022)

I disagree. Here is Belgium media receives large amount money from the government. Result, allmost all media says and repeats the government is doing fine. The only critical messages you find are on social media.


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## Tieks (Nov 26, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> Here is Belgium media receives large amount money from the government. Result, allmost all media says and repeats the government is doing fine.


Certainly not just in Belgium. It shows that governments will do everything to keep their influence. How many newspapers will survive when subsidies will be cut one day?


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## fernandel (Nov 26, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> I disagree. Here is Belgium media receives large amount money from the government. Result, allmost all media says and repeats the government is doing fine. The only critical messages you find are on social media.


IMO all countries have independent media too, there are also world independent and good Internet sites. Social media is like goverment media: people read what they want to here. And it is sad that young generation have interest just for money and do not care about anything other. For me is okay but what is their future? I do not care...


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## PMc (Nov 26, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> I was just telling my wife, a few days ago, that we used to only see things promoting entertainment and having fun. Now all we see is how to promote ourselves, make more money, get a better job and start your own business. Where's the fun and relaxation in all that? This is a problem.


Yes, and "develop yourself" - because when you're unhappy, it is all your responsibility and you're the one to blame.

This is also something that has seriousely changed - how we treat each other.
In the old century, I remember, when you had a problem, there was quickly some approach to resolve it, _together_. For instance, there was a 14-year old girl, had run away from home, and had simply decided to sit in my car. So, what to do? And there were immediately two or three hippie families who said, hey, you can stay with us for a while. So we did that, until her parents had developed some wisdom about how to treat the young lady, and then everything resolved nicely.

Nowadays, you just get good advice, that you can solve it all on your own and if one thing fails try a different one and so on and so on - without getting specific on anything, or -even less- getting in any way involved.


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## scottro (Nov 26, 2022)

I think nowadays, someone would have gone to the cops and the hippie families would be accused of child traffic.  Sad to say, and part of the de-evolution that you're discussing, there's often far more serious, that is merited fear over such things.  
I used to walk to grammar school, about a 10 minute walk from home. I suspect that now, parents would be (sadly, rightfully) afraid to allow such things now, even in the relatively nice suburbs where I grew up.

HOWEVER--if someone falls on the street, for example, in NYC where I now live, there are still dozens of people who will come to their aid. Supposedly crime is way down in this area.  Shucks, I do remember getting robbed at knifepoint in NYC in the 60's, (we were stupid wannabe hippie 15 year olds), so I don't know. It seems times of our youth always seem better in retrospect.


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## Phishfry (Nov 26, 2022)

cmoerz said:


> I love the fact, that this thread has already been marked "solved"...


I only did that because our moderators asked us to leave politics out and somebody posted a blatant political reference. Surely we can have civil conversations about society without invoking politics.

I have removed the tag. Please lets be nice to each other.


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## W.hâ/t (Nov 26, 2022)

You could have let it solved. This issue has been solved many, many years ago.
My friend explains that quite nicely. I am sorry if he is seen as political, his work is based on psychology.


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 26, 2022)

I think taking psychology as a base is an interesting point of view.
Alex Jones might speak about reptilians but one can not ignore we as humans have a primitive reptilian-brain which guides us to egocentrism,stupidity,selfishness,egoism.


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## Emrion (Nov 26, 2022)

Rethink the problem as: how can we fix ourselves?
We are the people, and people are us. We are the society, even if some of us don't want to.
This kind of ideas will save us - or not - in the years to come.

Moderators are very cool here...


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## Crivens (Nov 26, 2022)

Ok class. Here is your reading assignment for the weekend: https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Ps...cyber-monday&sprefix=influence,aps,232&sr=1-2
When you find that used on you, block it.


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## Phishfry (Nov 26, 2022)

I wonder as I get old, if its just me. Like the grandpa from the Simpsons.
You kids get off my lawn.
I was a liberal and turned conservative with age.
Its all about how you see the world.
Is it getting more violent or just more publicized.
I remember as a kid Kent State and Texas SMU tower shooter.
Very sensational events. Charlie and the SLA.
Things are not that much different.
Mental health is the key. Not pharmaceutical cures but solitude.
Serenity Now. Serenity Now. Serenity Now. Serenity Now.


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## Hobbes (Nov 26, 2022)

Other recommended reading, but only after Crivens assignment... 
Here Tony Judt pointed some of the problems we've talked about in this thread:





						Ill Fares the Land: Judt, Tony, Coates, Ta-Nehisi: 9780143118763: Amazon.com: Books
					

Ill Fares the Land [Judt, Tony, Coates, Ta-Nehisi] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Ill Fares the Land



					www.amazon.com


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Nov 27, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Is it getting more violent or just more publicized.


I think both. More publicity begets copycats. Low life individuals who no one would never pay attention to now have an idea. Television "news" and social media sensationalize all that cause it sells ads so you hear about it more.


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## RoGeorge (Nov 27, 2022)

I don't think it's the people's fault.  Don't think it's a random chain of events either.
Looks more like a plot.  I think the western world is driven into ground intentionally.


----------



## W.hâ/t (Nov 27, 2022)

```
define A as corrupt
define B as not corrupt

A->control(B)
B->depend(A)
A->depend(B)
B->free_will()

start:
while ((B) && !B->wise())
     A->power()

if (!(B))
     B->lose()
     A->win()
     next()

while ((B) && B->wise())
     B->hard_life()
     B->learn()
     A->nopower()

if (B)
     goto start || (die() && next())
else
     B->win()
     A->lose()
next()
```


----------



## Crivens (Nov 27, 2022)

Maybe one should pay attention to those before they go amok?


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## _martin (Nov 27, 2022)

Phishfry I understand your frustration. I just saw a picture of a 2-day old baby put into ground killed by russian solders. And despite all that is happening we have (Slovakia) supporters of russian invasion here. It sickens me, almost made me puke.

I keep saying this for some time, way before Covid: people are getting dumber, more stupid. This is true world wide and is not specific to any country. Something happened around 40s-50s last century, people slowly started to be more egoistic, self-centered and later even more stupid.
Yes, of course there are very smart people there now and then, but the vast majority of stupid people is just overwhelming.


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## eternal_noob (Nov 27, 2022)

Most important thing: Throw your TV set out of the window and never get one again.


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## Vull (Nov 27, 2022)

eternal_noob said:


> Most important thing: Throw your TV set out of the window and never get one again.


I threw my TV out in 2009 but Internet has been corrupted to replace TV anyway.


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## _martin (Nov 27, 2022)

eternal_noob said:


> Most important thing: Throw your TV set out of the window and never get one again.


While I generally don't agree I should have done that. Right now I'm struggling to process that information and feel the pain of the parents while I have two young, healthy kids at home right now.


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## PMc (Nov 27, 2022)

_martin said:


> Phishfry I understand your frustration. I just saw a picture of a 2-day old baby put into ground killed by russian solders.


What makes You believe in such reports?
As others have already recommended: throw away the TV.

Or, otherwise, think for a moment: what would be the purpose of such messages? When talking to elderly people in Germany, they tell me the Nazis did the same - their propaganda told that Jews would slaughter babies! So now it's the Russians?! Have we learned nothing?

This is a known pattern in psychological warfare, and it serves one purpose only: to produce hatred. There are Russians here, working on the software like us others. Are they evil people? Shouldn't we know better??


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 27, 2022)

Psychological operations (United States) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## _martin (Nov 27, 2022)

PMc said:


> What makes You believe in such reports?


Why would I not believe them? There are fake news out there, there was and is propaganda. But there's nothing to be gained from faking these reports. And that was not fake. That is very close to a topic to convince a flat earther that earth is not flat. Also I know some Ukrainians personally.
Oh, my grandmother was in school when nazis came to Czechoslovakia. I heard first hand what they were and did (note I know your point lays the other way around in that sentence about nazis)

Being russian doesn't mean you agree with the war not that you kill people. Being russian doesn't make you evil. Those who are on front and killing people, those who are driving the war, those are evil. and those are pushing their propaganda.
Bottom line, the war on Ukraine is there, it's not a fake news.  Innocent people are being slaughtered like flies. We should be able to protect those in need better.

Coming back to my point, that's why I feel the frustration with Phishfry and his original post.


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## Tieks (Nov 27, 2022)

_martin said:


> But there's nothing to be gained from faking these reports.


Propaganda is part of every war, usually coming from both sides. If there is nothing to be gained with it they wouldn't do it, would they?
Btw, there are 2 media narratives. Western media tell you it's bad Putin against poor Ucraine, non-western media mostly tell you it's the US against Russia. Now why would that be?


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 27, 2022)

I could say everything is the fault of democrats. I could say everything is the fault of republicans. But I could ask what would advance us ?


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## _martin (Nov 27, 2022)

I actually listen to Russian television. And visit Russian media too. While my Russian is not that good I can get around, especially if I read text.

My post was about Ukraine and how people suffer there. As I'm from Slovakia, due to the communist history forced on us before, we know Russians very well. With all the stupidity that regime comes with. As you Tieks come from NL you may not known that feeling when state tells you you can't travel outside because you may not come back. I could name many, many other ridiculous stuff from communist regime. The biggest enemy of Russia is Russia itself. But others had/have to suffer.

What matters now is UA and their people, their suffering. Nobody wanted to go to stupid war and now they need to fight it. And they are definitely fighting it for US, V4 countries and East Europe.

But as I looked into my children's eyes when they were sleeping and had the the photo of a dead child in my head I had to react to Phishfry post here. I come here for technical/FreeBSD stuff, it should stay that way. Maybe I was weakened for a moment and let myself write here too.

I remember when I first saw photos of Auschwitz, heard the stories about it and actually there were people at that time (i.e. during war) that didn't believe it's happening. And then I think about the sorrow and pain of people actually being there and nobody hearing nor carrying about them.
And same is happening with Ukraine.


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## PMc (Nov 28, 2022)

_martin said:


> Why would I not believe them?


Well, firstly You might read the article linked above by Alain De Vos - and then conclude that nothing should be just believed, and all should be questioned for the motives behind it.



_martin said:


> There are fake news out there, there was and is propaganda. But there's nothing to be gained from faking these reports.


Really? I think if one reads only this thread carefully, we have already mentioned something that might be gained.
We have discussed that people, citizens, are transforming into passive consumers serving the big business. And it seems that a few countries, e.g. Belarus, and then most likely also Russia, are not (yet) moving into that direction.
From there it is an easy step to conclude that most potent powers in the world (those powers with the most money) have an interest to subdue and/or transform Russia, by whatever means they seem fit.
Looking for a motive for propaganda against Russia, there is one.

It is also interesting to study the historical facts. There one can figure that there is originally only one people: the Kievan Rus, all the same. And they were governed in times from Kiev, from Novgorod or from Moscow, usually from brother kings who were mostly engaged quarreling each other. This is nothing new, it is a 1200 year old quarrel.
The only thing that is new is the western powers fuelling the conflict with weapons, thereby creating maximum bloodshed.
So the next logical question should be "cui bono": is there somebody who might gain something from that? And then we find that there are certain "investors" underway (even among the direct offspring of Mr. POTUS himself), and such investors are certainly not interested in the people, they are interested in making money.

So that is just the known facts, and what can be directly concluded from them. There are many further questions to ask, but this should be put into the picture, and then it is no longer a simple picture of evil Russia.

What troubles me, however, is that people in my land are now freezing and hungering - and if this is just for some rich people to get richer, it is inacceptable. I would prefer the leaders of the Rus to fight out their quarrels on their own, like their viking ancestors did.


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## Phishfry (Nov 28, 2022)

PMc said:


> What makes You believe in such reports?


Innocent country bombed daily by madman next door.


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## W.hâ/t (Nov 28, 2022)

Those poor people... Oops my ego doesn't disqualify me from the definition


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## angry_vincent (Nov 28, 2022)

i am still suggesting this thread to close as it goes astray quickly. it has nothing to do in reality about meta-fixes to meta-problems but rather feeding emotional battle grounds on opinions same way social media platform does.
As for people, who trying to understand who are Ukrainians, learn ukrainian language  to some degree, come here. live for a year or more, understand their will to live, their culture, which has been suppressed, murdered, gulag'ed, language exterminated for centuries. ( since mid 1600's ). Then, learn some russian language and move in village or depressed industrial city somewhere in Siberia and understand that people, what are their daily lives, their culture and what they breathe, and why.  And you will understand for YOURSELF, who are who. And not listening to stupid media personalities such as J.B Peterson and alike. get books, documents, read papers. 
i could go on as being born in USSR, living though all the shit this monster produced and staying proud to be decendant of real Kievan Rus, not one faked and spread by quacking ass Putin and his "history" assets.


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 28, 2022)

Is it possible for you to look into the head of Putin? I can't.


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## cynwulf (Nov 28, 2022)

I saw the OP of this thread about a "crumbling society" and instantly knew it would become a "Ukraine thread".  Nothing good will come of this subject.

It seems some haven't learned from the last two world wars and the numerous conflicts in the middle east over the last few decades.  Money and power, pure and simple.  Propaganda and lies - and young men in the front line falling dead on their faces in the dirt, while the super rich elites sit safely back at home planning the next bloodbath.


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## hardworkingnewbie (Nov 28, 2022)

_martin said:


> Phishfry
> I keep saying this for some time, way before Covid: people are getting dumber, more stupid. This is true world wide and is not specific to any country. Something happened around 40s-50s last century, people slowly started to be more egoistic, self-centered and later even more stupid.
> Yes, of course there are very smart people there now and then, but the vast majority of stupid people is just overwhelming.



Well yes, people got dumber during the 20th century, the root cause is exposure to leaded gasoline. And here's the scientific study behind it to back this up: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220307162011.htm

Aside that the thread should be closed, nothing good will come from it if it continues much longer.


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## Crivens (Nov 28, 2022)

Yep, I think this is falling off the cliff. Better nail it down.


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