# Claws-Mail versus Eudora



## Phishfry (Jan 8, 2022)

I was a Eudora Email client user for 20 years before coming to FreeBSD.
mail/claws-mail is where I ended up. It felt similar to Eudora.

Claws-Mail has always felt 'almost there' in usability terms. It has not changed in 6+ years.
Here are some of the quirks in my opinion.
1) When I doubleclick on an address book entry it opens the recipients address book entry.
It should add the recipient to the current email.
Not an extra click> Send to:

Double click on person and added to email.
This is standard email software practice. Am I wrong? Extra click for a common task.

2) Email Attachments location makes attachments easy to miss.
The whole email body screen just dont work well. Even adjusting the sliders to my preference.

What do you think of Claws-Mail?


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## Cthulhux (Jan 8, 2022)

Eudora is hard to replace. (I like that there are updated versions for Windows, at least.)
Claws Mail is decent if you can live with the weird user interface.


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## Menelkir (Jan 8, 2022)

Eudora's source code is available, but no one ported.


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## Phishfry (Jan 8, 2022)

Yes that was the impetus of this post. Thunderbird survey.

My thought was 'whatever happened to Eudora'. At one time Thunderbird was going to use it.

Before I would consider Thunderbird I would have to research the moz foundations participation.
They seem mis-aligned with their user base, overfunded and mis-managed.



Cthulhux said:


> I like that there are updated versions for Windows, at least.


That is a good point. Portability is nice too.. Qualcom really made a nice client.
My old Eudora with all 20 years of email still resides on a Win32PE USB stick.
If the encryption schemes were updated I might still be using it.


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## Cthulhux (Jan 8, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> At one time Thunderbird was going to use it.



Actually, it was the other way around: Qualcomm wanted to make an "all-new" Eudora "8", based on Thunderbird. Nobody wanted that, so Qualcomm ended the Eudora project instead of just making "Eudora 9" without all that Thunderbird cruft.



Phishfry said:


> They seem mis-aligned with their user base, overfunded and mis-managed.



Yup, sounds like Mozilla.



Phishfry said:


> If the encryption schemes were updated I might still be using it.



The HERMES team provides updated encryption for Eudora 7.


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## Menelkir (Jan 8, 2022)

Sad thing that at some point in the past, evolution was an awesome email client almost head to head with Eudora, but after some years (IMO) it got head to head with Outlook.


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## Phishfry (Jan 8, 2022)

Pegasus was one of Eudoras worthy competitors
http://www.pmail.com/history.htm


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 10, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> … the impetus of this post. Thunderbird survey. …



☑









						Thunderbird Email Client - User Survey
					

I am currently studying User Centered Design at RMIT university and apart of the course, I've got to do a user centered survey for a product. The product I have chosen for the survey is the Thunderbird email client. Would anyone who uses Thunderbird email client and would not mind filling out a...




					forums.freebsd.org


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 10, 2022)

Now, the tricky part …

I have little patience with discussions that bash Mozilla. Exceptionally, I'll participate. *Be nice*, please, people.



Phishfry said:


> Before I would consider Thunderbird I would have to research the moz foundations participation.



Emphatically: Thunderbird is no longer funded by Mozilla.

It saddens me that nearly a decade has passed without people becoming suitably aware of this essential fact. It's the first thing that's seen when Thunderbird starts:


 

2012

From Thunderbird: Stability and Community Innovation | Mitchell's Blog:



> … Much of Mozilla’s leadership — including that of the Thunderbird team — has come to the conclusion that on-going stability is the most important thing, and that continued innovation in Thunderbird is not a priority for Mozilla’s product efforts. (For more information about the path to this conclusion, see the “Background Information” section below.) As a result, the Thunderbird team has developed a plan that provides both stability for Thunderbird’s current state and allows the Thunderbird community to innovate if it chooses.
> 
> In this plan, Mozilla will provide security updates through an Extended Support Release process. We will also maintain mechanisms for the Thunderbird community to organize for ongoing development. Here are additional details about this plan. …



The present day – frequently asked questions

Answers about funding and independence are second only to the most basic question, _What is Thunderbird?_ …

*Who makes Thunderbird?*



> Thunderbird is developed, tested, translated and supported largely by group of dedicated volunteers, plus paid staff. *Thunderbird is an independent, community driven project.*  Therefore its paid staff, budget and fundraising are entirely managed and overseen by the Thunderbird Council, which is elected by the Thunderbird Community. Thunderbird development is made possible by funds donated by the Thunderbird community. (Mozilla Corporation, the makers of Firefox, and Mozilla Messaging no longer develop Thunderbird. But Mozilla still supports Thunderbird by hosting many of the Thunderbird resources.)



Give to Thunderbird


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## hardworkingnewbie (Jan 10, 2022)

Claws Mail is nice as long as you don't need to use HTML mails. If you need to do that, then Claws Mail is not a good choice for composing such emails. 

Thunderbird's UI itself is really, really dated. This is how a modern vertical mail view does look like: 






And this is Thunderbird, which is just downright ugly: 





Since I'm anyway always in a browser, I stopped using Thunderbird and replaced it with Roundcube.


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## Menelkir (Jan 10, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> Claws Mail is nice as long as you don't need to use HTML mails. If you need to do that, then Claws Mail is not a good choice for composing such emails.
> 
> Thunderbird's UI itself is really, really dated. This is how a modern vertical mail view does look like:
> 
> ...


Thunderbird have bugs that comes from a long time ago that was never fixed, but like all mozilla products, the priority is changing the interface and cutting off options instead of fixing bugs. The most annoying bug IMO is the duplication of messages at inbox that occurs from time to time (I have 4 mails accounts configured).


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## hardworkingnewbie (Jan 10, 2022)

Well there are some mail deduplication addons around for Thunderbird...


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## jmos (Jan 10, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> 1) When I doubleclick on an address book entry it opens the recipients address book entry.
> It should add the recipient to the current email.
> Not an extra click> Send to:
> 
> ...


You can do a right click on a person in the address book (list view) to write an email to. I'm not using this feature, instead I'm starting to type in a few chars of the person I want in the To, Cc, Bcc etc. field, and press [Tab] for completion. If it isn't unique, you will get a list for a simple selection.


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## Menelkir (Jan 10, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> Well there are some mail deduplication addons around for Thunderbird...


The mail isn't duplicated itself, it just shows duplicated. If you archive or delete one, both will disappear or show an empty mail. I've tested with linux and the same behavior occurs. I'm not sure what is causing this issue.


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## bsduck (Jan 10, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> Thunderbird's UI itself is really, really dated.


To be honest, I like it much more than the one in your screenshot.


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## Cthulhux (Jan 10, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> Thunderbird's UI itself is really, really dated.



On Windows, I use Pandora. Tell me more...



hardworkingnewbie said:


> This is how a modern vertical mail view does look like:



That screenshot shows a dated version of Apple Mail. Really, really dated.


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## hardworkingnewbie (Jan 10, 2022)

Cthulhux said:


> That screenshot shows a dated version of Apple Mail. Really, really dated.


This does not change the fact that Thunderbird's vertical view is ancient. Try another one.


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## Cthulhux (Jan 10, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> Thunderbird's vertical view is ancient.



Choose a different one then?





						How to change the Thunderbird layout | Thunderbird Help
					

Thunderbird contains three layout options for you to choose from to best fit your preference.




					support.mozilla.org


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## hardworkingnewbie (Jan 10, 2022)

Cthulhux said:


> Choose a different one then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not the issue I've got with Thunderbird. My issue with Thunderbird is that even it's up to date version just offers an ancient, out of date vertical email view, which is in most modern mail programs nowadays the common standard. 

It's simply not changeable enough out of the box nor with addons. So something which the authors really should update sometimes.


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## Jose (Jan 10, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> (The Mozilla Foundation) seem(s) mis-aligned with their user base, overfunded and mis-managed.


This is the best description of their current state I've ever read. I'm gonna steal it!



Menelkir said:


> Thunderbird have bugs that comes from a long time ago that was never fixed, but like all mozilla products, the priority is changing the interface and cutting off options instead of fixing bugs.


They may not longer be funded by the Mozilla Foundation, but they sure learned the hate-your-users product management techniques well from their former parents.

I've been using some form of Mozilla mail for decades, and recently they've become more shiny and less useful with every release. The move to the new UI killed all legacy add-ons, which means I now have to copy-paste foreign characters out of a fully functional program and into every Spanish-language email I need to send.

I've been meaning to try out jmos 's port of Seamonkey for a while.


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## bsduck (Jan 10, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> My issue with Thunderbird is that even it's up to date version just offers an ancient, out of date vertical email view, which is in most modern mail programs nowadays the common standard.


If you prefer other layouts, use programs offering them, rather than expecting Thunderbird to adopt the layout that's currently fashionable. Why have choice if each program looks the same?


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## Phishfry (Jan 10, 2022)

Jose said:


> This is the best description of their current state I've ever read. I'm gonna steal it!



What pisses me off is imagine what FreeBSD could do with more funding.
Heck it was a big deal when the encryption app guy left the FreeBSD Foundation 1 Million dollars.
Now think about how much Google gives the Mozilla Foundation.
Sickening Anti trust insurance.



> Mozilla announced that the contract was once again renewed for at least three years to November 2014, at three times the amount previously paid, or nearly US$300 million annually





> This partnership came with an annual price tag of US$375 million to be paid by Yahoo!


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## jmos (Jan 10, 2022)

Jose said:


> I've been meaning to try out jmos 's port of Seamonkey for a while.


Time to tell that I don't use SeaMonkeys mail client - I'm using just the web browser. Claws Mail is the one I'm using. I've used Thunderbird years ago for a few months, but the concept of saving many mails in one file is to fragile - seen to many users with that format loosing their mail spool (and IMAP isn't an option - my private and commercial stuff is nothing I want / being allowed to lay around on servers out of my control). Claws Mail gives me MH. Save, usable by scripts, controllable.

And I prefer a classic layout. But I also prefer never being forced to use an application in fullscreen mode; Claws Mail just uses the upper left corner and about 25% of the monitor  So a three columns layout would cost me horizontal space, which would limit other applications. And seeing more and more new monitors being able to be used not only for viewing movies… And I give a damn about what is trendy - usability is much more important. A compact window is better than a flat & wide one.


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## Phishfry (Jan 10, 2022)

jmos said:


> but the concept of saving many mails in one file is too fragile


Amen to that. I had a laptop meltdown on major version upgrade. System settings backed up but not content.
It was a relief to be able to recover all the Mailbox contents easily on Claws-Mail. Plain text and directories.



			Claws Mail - The user-friendly, lightweight, and fast e-mail client


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## Jose (Jan 11, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Please, which extension did you lose use of? What was its purpose?











						Zombie Keys (Multilanguage Keyboard)
					

Enter accents, diacritics, diaeresis, umlauts, ligatures etc. with keyboards of various countries (us,uk,ie,fr,it,ru,de,sv) - via easy to remember shortcuts or menu. Also supports all textboxes of the application (such as search, filters).




					addons.thunderbird.net


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## hardworkingnewbie (Jan 11, 2022)

jmos said:


> Time to tell that I don't use SeaMonkeys mail client - I'm using just the web browser. Claws Mail is the one I'm using. I've used Thunderbird years ago for a few months, but the concept of saving many mails in one file is to fragile - seen to many users with that format loosing their mail spool (and IMAP isn't an option - my private and commercial stuff is nothing I want / being allowed to lay around on servers out of my control). Claws Mail gives me MH. Save, usable by scripts, controllable.


Actually Thunderbird is able to use Maildir instead of Mbox - you just have to enable it before creating your account. Image shows Thunderbird 78.X. This though is one of the newer options, so probably was not around when you used it.





bsduck: programs under BSD which do offer that view are Evolution and Kmail. Evolution is quite slow, and Kmail relies on Akonadi which never worked well for me and pulls tons of KDE dependencies in it as well.

No, thanks, I would really much like to have that view in Thunderbird, because I like Thunderbird as many other people as well, I'm using some addons as well and I don't know if these would work with other programs or the functionality is in them. Thunderbird wants to be an all purpose every day mailer, but not having that view in it really is a big shortcoming of it. People have been asking the developers to change that view since ages, but unfortunately it doesn't get the love here it deserves.


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## Menelkir (Jan 11, 2022)

Jose said:


> I've been using some form of Mozilla mail for decades, and recently they've become more shiny and less useful with every release.


I was thinking here that this is a (stupid) trend, see windows 11 for example, I saw people complaining about cut-off funcionality such as the taskbar (you can't resize it anymore) and Microsoft keep updating file search and colors and other stupid things. And even worse, they've managed to cut-off even the registry hacks to fix what was wrong (same for firefox, they've removed the compact mode and there's a proposal of making it unfixable by hacks, which is really stupid).


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## mer (Jan 11, 2022)

Never used Eudora, been using Claws-mail for a while with both POP and IMAP.  Works just fine.
Dabbled with Thunderbird for a while, but it's "too much".  Too big, too many resources, too much of everything.
I'm of the opinion that email is text, with attachments.  When that used to be the norm, Pine and Mutt were my standard.


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## freezr (Jan 11, 2022)

I like Thunderbird and I find it quite comfortable as well as powerful. It can handle GB of mailbox quite fast, it also supports multi-account.

The WebUI of my email provider is not this good and it is also slow compared with Gmail, Thunderbird allows me to use my email handy and quickly.


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## Jose (Jan 11, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> Actually Thunderbird is able to use Maildir instead of Mbox - you just have to enable it before creating your account. Image shows Thunderbird 78.X. This though is one of the newer options, so probably was not around when you used it.


I tried this recently, and discovered it does not play well with the "Just mark it as deleted" server option. The messages stay in the folder forever, just with the title crossed out and a red "x" next to them. This is probably because the "compact" option doesn't do anything when using maildir format.

This bug was supposedly fixed 7 years ago, but I'm not the only one who finds this behavior recently.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 11, 2022)

Jose said:


> I've been using some form of Mozilla mail for decades, and recently they've become more shiny and less useful with every release.



Was there a legacy LanguageTool?


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## Jose (Jan 12, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Was there a legacy LanguageTool?


I don't remember. I know that I could use Mac dead keys when I used that platform regularly. I'm not sure what I did on Windows, that was a long time ago.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 12, 2022)

Jose said:


> … Thunderbird … Mozilla … hate-your-users product management techniques …



I love that my local LanguageTool server can work:

with Chromium and other Chromium-based browsers
with Microsoft Edge
with Apple iOS and macOS
with Opera
with my preferred web browser
with my preferred e-mail client
– thanks, Mozilla; thanks Thunderbird. Thanks for making *decisions that are ultimately for the better*, for the *users of your products*.


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## Jose (Jan 12, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> I love that my local LanguageTool server can work:
> 
> with Chromium and other Chromium-based browsers
> with Microsoft Edge
> ...


A whole Java server just for spell check? Or you could of course just send _everything you type _to https://languagetool.org/. Just for freakin' spell check.

But hey, it works with all those browsers you list. Bravo!


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## mer (Jan 12, 2022)

Spell check, grammer check, autocorrect?  Heck I always turn that stuff off because they are annoying.  I'll correct my own mistakes, I don't need the program to do that.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 12, 2022)

Jose said:


> it works with all those browsers



Notably:

*Mozilla Firefox*,
*Thunderbird*, which I also listed.
Thunderbird is _not_ a primarily a web browser, although it can browse the web. 



Jose said:


> … legacy add-ons, … they sure learned the hate-your-users product management techniques well from their former parents. …



Do you imagine that the developers of LanguageTool would have wasted time continuing to develop add-ons for a *niche, legacy technology* that was on its way out? 





Jose said:


> send _everything you type _to https://languagetool.org/.



It's not so blunt.

Things are easily configured to be selective, however for this type of thing I prefer to send _nothing_ to a third party.

I chose LanguageTool, not Grammarly, because LanguageTool allows *checking and corrections to be confined* to the notebook that I use ☑


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## Jose (Jan 12, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Do you imagine that the developers of LanguageTool would have wasted time continuing to develop add-ons for a *niche, legacy technology* that was on its way out?


I imagine the makers of Languagetool are looking to make some money selling stats about what you type. Heck, their use of Google Analytics is right there in their privacy policy. Bully for you if you don't mind. I find Thunderbird's built-in support for foreign language dictionaries excellent.

And in any case, neither addresses my problem. In Spanish "ano" and "año" are both correctly spelled words. One means "year". The other means "anus". You can see the awkwardness that could arise when trying to wish someone a happy new year. I can type the latter in Firefox because of Abctajpu, which works reasonably well once you get used to its quirks. Zombiekeys was easier to use, but alas it was lost in the great extensions bonfire.


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## mer (Jan 12, 2022)

Jose awesome example.  I'll admit to being native English speaker with very limited other language ability, but that is a dimension I never thought about.  English (American and "British") has a lot of words that are pronounced the same but spelled differently and mean drastically different things.  Your example shows English misses more fun with "I don't know what to call the tilde over the n".  
Thank you for giving me a reason to lol for a bit today.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 15, 2022)

Jose said:


> … I find Thunderbird's built-in support for foreign language dictionaries excellent. …



I don't doubt it  but LanguageTool does catch some things, including grammar, that I would otherwise miss. 

The shots below are of Firefox, but the effect in Thunderbird is the same. These are recent genuine mistakes (not contrived for this discussion): 

  

In that third shot, I edited the word three or four times before it was truly correct. I had real difficulty telling what was wrong until I looked away for a while, then looked afresh.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 15, 2022)

mer said:


> a reason to lol for a bit





Jose said:


> One means "year". The other means "anus".



Now I can't get this tune out of my head: "Uranus, my anus, everybody with Uranus" – start at 0:39





_View: https://youtu.be/PmzxG9kdZhM?t=39_


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