# New hardware based on old designs



## kpedersen (May 12, 2016)

Hi all,

A colleague and I were discussing solutions to software lifespan (and ways of prolonging the inevitable scenario of everyone being forced to stream their locked down / consumption-only software from Apple, Google or Microsoft).

We came to the conclusion that virtualization will never be a solution because of cpu architecture changes and even emulation will be impossible once Microsoft, Google or Apple lock down our hardware completely. We decided that only maintaining old hardware will really be a solution but I can see this as an impossible task since material breaks and will one day be irreplaceable.

Therefore we were looking if there were such companies (or a potential business opportunity perhaps?) that produce brand new hardware but based on older schematics and designs. So for example a brand new Pentium II with Gravis Ultrasound card and a Cirrus logic graphics card.

I.e if I really needed to run Microsoft Money 97 or Lotus-123, rather than emulation, I could just buy one of these brand new machines and run the software natively and bug free (for software at that time .

Anyone here know if such a company exists? Perhaps this same company will be interested in carrying on the manufacturing of hardware like the Raspberry Pi once that becomes "obsolete".

Cheers,


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## aragats (May 13, 2016)

There are probably a few places selling motherboards, e.g.:
http://www.ibt.ca/v2/industrialboard/lsm.html
http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/P3/
However, the problem could be the CPU chips themselves, you can still find used ones, but not sure about new.


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## zspider (May 14, 2016)

I agree with this idea, but you would have to find someone willing to part with the technology. Though I would love it if there was a supply of new SGI Octane parts coming.

Although it is expensive the Talos Secure Workstation that uses POWER, might be a more likely consideration.


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## forquare (May 14, 2016)

I'm not sure how complete it is, but I suppose if you picked up something _like_ OpenSparc then all you would need is a fabricator…


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## kpedersen (May 17, 2016)

Hmm, yeah, one day it would be really great if the tools were readily available for everyone to fabricate your own chips based on specs like SPARC and POWER.

It really seems to be necessary since even very basic but popular hardware like the Raspberry PI A+ is extremely hard to track down from within the UK nowadays which seems to completely go against what so called "open" hardware is for. Everyone has moved onto the Raspberry PI 3 even though it kinda tries to solve a different problem. (Note that I have very little interest in the Raspberry PI, its just an good example of non-intel hardware that people can actually buy).


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## sossego (May 20, 2016)

In the presentation of the hypothesis, you must be certain that your observation has been from different co-ordinates on a geological, metaphysical, and social scales. That the application of such a device would be designed  such that the processor and instructions near perfectly fit the utilization of the computational device, would be the same as to reason the average person has enough sense to tell the difference between his arse and a hole in the ground is quite preposterous.

People don't care and they make assumptions for their mistakes.  The standard person will just follow the herd without questioning the beginnings and reasons for any actions. 
The same attitude exists within the community of developers:: It is not those who have the abilities to create; but, those who have the ability to purchase such items. Therefore, the flow and development is dragged along by the purse strings of the investors.

In the case of the Raspberry PI, people wanted something different.

I digress a bit here.


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## SirDice (Jun 1, 2016)

kpedersen said:


> I.e if I really needed to run Microsoft Money 97 or Lotus-123, rather than emulation, I could just buy one of these brand new machines and run the software natively and bug free (for software at that time .


The hardware is, in most cases, not the problem. If virtualization can't do it, emulation usually can. The problem is the dependency of the software on old operating systems.


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## kpedersen (Jun 1, 2016)

SirDice said:


> The hardware is, in most cases, not the problem. If virtualization can't do it, emulation usually can. The problem is the dependency of the software on old operating systems.



I am not sure that the computers of tomorrow will be able to run old operating systems via virtualization or emulation. I think that we will very much be using locked down low powered DRM infested "thin clients" and be expected to stream all of our  consumer software from big greedy service providers.

Dependency on old operating systems isn't such an issue. After all, any OS becomes obsolete one day and it is surely impossible to keep porting a software suite to newer OSes indefinitely (i.e porting a sizable GTK+ application to something like iOS and cocoa is a massive undertaking as it is). There has to be a cut off. I try to see running something like Windows 2000 in QEMU, the same as running a Java 1.6 VM. The difference being that QEMU is *currently* a lot easier to port to existing platforms.


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## SirDice (Jun 2, 2016)

Sure, there's a big shift towards locked down systems but as long as there are people like us there will be things to tinker with 

At least that's what I hope. And the sheer number of development boards you can get these days definitely helps. I really wished something like the Arduino or the Raspberry Pi existed when I started with computers (around 30+ years ago).


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## kpedersen (Jun 2, 2016)

SirDice said:


> Sure, there's a big shift towards locked down systems but as long as there are people like us there will be things to tinker with


I do hope so. Then I can take off my tinfoil hat 



SirDice said:


> I really wished something like the Arduino or the Raspberry Pi existed when I started with computers.


Agreed, I honestly don't know why it has taken so damn long for something like this to come around? It makes no sense. Even a company who produces the raw boards for the old ZX Spectrum would have filled this gap to some extent but... nothing. I hope these won't disappear again (like the Spectrum and other hobby machines did).

What is quite cool is that other than software I don't want to run (i.e but am required to by work), machines like the Raspberry PI (1) or BeagleBone Black are "good enough" for my uses at home. So if computers did go to hell, it wouldn't affect me in the slightest so long as this kind of machinery is available. They just need to remain open!


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## fossette (Jun 16, 2016)

SirDice said:


> The hardware is, in most cases, not the problem. If virtualization can't do it, emulation usually can. The problem is the dependency of the software on old operating systems.


I agree with that too!  I run Apple ][ programs (OK! games!) in an emulator running under Windows 2000, which is a virtual machine running under FreeBSD.  So, not a problem!

The problem with hardware is that manufacturers must remain competitive and earn a profit.  They can't maintain a wide choice and be profitable at the same time.  So, they go with the demand of the day.  Unfortunately, we can't manufacture ICs ourselves.  We just buy what we can get.

Locked systems (software) tend to be unlocked legally or illegally somehow.  I question the long-term financial viability of that trend which, quite sadly, is starting.  kpedersen, your possible lockdown worst-case scenario would be defeated by 'revolt', i.e, there's-no-way-I'm-buying-that-crap attitude.  Free software like FreeBSD will be adapted to any new hardware (hacked if required), and those particular manufacturers will get the money.  It's that simple!

As for myself, I don't support anything like the Adobe Creative Suite or Microsoft Office subscription services.  You loose all your assets once your subscription lapse.  That's ridiculous.  I'll continue to use the old software I bought or collected.  They still work just fine!

Dominique.


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