# no flame just a rant to read



## vso1 (Jul 15, 2010)

I am not new to FreeBSD although I neither consider myself an very experienced BSD/linxu/Unix user. 

I have to start excusing myself for my rant, because I do like FreeBSD 
I work daily with a very very mixed enviroment (linux/bsd/citrix/vmware/windows etc) 


The main reason for me to run BSD is to get more out of the hardware than Windows does. especially when it can do more with less. 

There is however (without intent to flame) a serious flaw in documentation. 
9 times out of 10 I miss, reboot here, restart proces x.y.z etc or some other method to get it working. 
Example: Tuning with syctl, do I need to reboot, or does it work instantly



*Instaling & testing with BSD*

what I miss is some "backup" tool, I don't need to backup OS or ports and the data on my ZFS disks well that's "safe" What I mean is that there is or isn't a tool (I don't know to be honest) that backups my "personal" config(in /etc and /boot) & the ports i've installed. 
It would be so nice to plug in an of the shelf USBstick, save in a /mnt/usbstick/freebsd8.1-rc1/v1.1/ directory. using sysinstall.. 
why ? now I don't know every trick in the book but I know failing Harddrives and reinstalling made easy .. 
Even a small utill to "edit" your backup to make a new version before you install. (deselecting or adding some additions) also usefull for cloning/scripting freebsd servers install. 


Also isn't there anybody who came up with an Idea to create an tool that grabs the dmesg/pciconf and other query info you need to compile a kernel? 
editing after it produced a compile-able kernel for your system of course being able to edit. 

I have a heard time to find any good tweaking guide (maybe I am searching wrong though) 
example: in the handbook you read .. a small introduction to tuning with sysctl however where is the explaintion of every function ? (is there any?) 


If I would be using freebsd as a desktop user, I would want to be able to select a custom "default" user with mailbox that recieves system messages (root mail?) 
Or if I installed as an server it would "redirect" to a mailserver + e-mail adress 

*System maintance*
Maybe someoney would write a program that sends a notice( could be mail or screenmessage)
that can interactivly makes you aware of:
- port update
- "port upgrade(s)" maybe even the ones you installed yes/no or all ports.  
- does security update(s)(patches) 
- opts to clean old data (/var/log) 
- update OS 
- makes a backup of config (see my sysinstall backup suggestion) 
- hardware status (temperture/SMART status/ups status etc)
- statistics (highest usage, most usage, idle times vs load) 

*lots of freebsd servers/Coperate attack*
It would be a serieus advandage to have a "deployment server" that allowes you to pretweak/save configs of servers be fore installing and cache install + updates for your freebsd install(s) the main point of intruducing any flavor of BSD/Linux/Unix in corperate is not that its bad, heck most IT know its better than windows. and yes they don't like the CMD line (to difficult ..) 
But the breaking point is updating (does my application stays running ?) or better said being able to test what update "breaks" their production application. 
The usermanagement trouble (central vs local) 
Or better said the amount of effort needed to keep the system up to date and running. 


*documentation*
in a short "burst"
windows howto/manual: click here here and here .. done (if not go away)
linux howto: you can do x.y.z if you do it like these .. with this needed software .. adapt to own needs. 
FreeBSD manual: your options are x1. x2.x3 and y1.y2.y3 etc .. how to use go find out for yourself. 




*General conclusion/remark*
Yeah I am ranting, and I know many of you say well you can write your own tools, Unfortunalty I cannot. 
Don't get me wrong because in general Windows IT techies don't know how to configure basic adminstative things. Security is a JOKE (no offence intended) 
Linux & BSD users know more and are better prepared (best practice) however in the day to day adminstrative jobs 90% of the windows IT administrators are "quickly done" 
setting up a large enviroment from scratch takes a windows admin far less time. 

The strong point of Linux/BSD users as I see in general heck when something hits the preverbial Fan those "users" or admins know where to look and have solved it before you can blink even once.


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## mk (Jul 15, 2010)

> Example: Tuning with syctl, do I need to reboot, or does it work instantly


some of them are read-only - you cant change them, others can be change on the fly without need to reboot, other need to reboot. depend on what are you changing.



> *Instaling & testing with BSD*


there is dump/restore, you can install "skeleton os" (just install the os without any apps/configuration) and restore. or use livecd and restore over the network.
further customization can be done with pre-configured sysinstal conf. file loaded by hand.
use crontab for example to make daily/whatever basis backup of configuration files of interest. note that tar is good for this. (or preferred archive app)
there is *restore -i* for interactive change of existing backup
dmesg interactive thingy is nice, but don't relay to much on automated stuff that you didn't write for yourself.
there is *sysctl -d* to explain what it does, and of course your imagination of how to put them together.



> *System maintance*


*/etc/periodic* infrastructure 



> *lots of freebsd servers/Coperate attack*


making deployment server is easy hell. 
windows it is windows it staff after all.
the effort of keeping up to date systems is great as always, thus you are payed well.



> *documentation*


again - your imagination, your specific case of what the heck have happen with your specific system.




> *General conclusion/remark*


learn


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## MG (Jul 15, 2010)

> The strong point of Linux/BSD users as I see in general heck when something hits the preverbial Fan those "users" or admins know where to look and have solved it before you can blink even once.



I think this is caused by the logical structure of an OS. A fatal exception with a list of hardware adresses that don't even exist doesn't help anyone. 
But if a systems design makes it possible to eliminate all possible causes of the problem, it will be found very soon.



> Linux & BSD users know more and are better prepared (best practice) however in the day to day adminstrative jobs 90% of the windows IT administrators are "quickly done"



Can you give an example of that?
Ofcourse there a fast guys but they need the same amount of experience as *nix admins. Most windows administrators should just learn to use a keyboard. Using a mouse for admin jobs is like speaking in sign language.


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## Beastie (Jul 15, 2010)

vso1 said:
			
		

> what I miss is some "backup" tool [...] backups my "personal" config(in /etc and /boot)


For something as simple as this, why not use tar, and either pass the files you need or pass a directory and exclude what you don't need?


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## fronclynne (Jul 16, 2010)

I should poke through the sysutils/bsdadminscripts, & if there's not something that does this, might look at contacting the maintainer with some samples to add to the port.  It seems like a fairly useful & simple thing to have around.


*Å’dit:*
It occurs to me that there should be some way to reverse mergemaster(8)'s [red]-U[/red] flag to backup every file in /etc/ & /boot/ (besides /boot/kernel/) and maybe some parts of /var/ that have been user modified or don't exist in the default /etc/ (&cet).

Personally, I just tar(1) up all of /etc/ & /var/ after moving the old backups every so often, but I'm not worried about space just yet.  Also, it's as subtle and elegant as a 1972 Chrysler Newport.


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## darkshadow (Jul 16, 2010)

*repeated*

first did you read the freebsd handbook it more easier than any thing you read before .
secound I dont see any os system packaged with backup tools even windows and they are third party application .
third  the security always depend on you the weakest chain in security is human and most of flows found on third party application not os
forth Dont Mix Os things with application thing they are seperate thing you can start from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system 
fifth I dont see any reason for one of us to prove that freebsd is better than foo since it know to be very good in specific area
and the last if things dont suit your need or even if you dont like it you can use another solution 

sory for this but I hate this kind of thread


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## vso1 (Jul 16, 2010)

First of all Thanks for the usefull tips (the ones who gave) 

most of you basicly say "you can do ... but find out for your self" 
Not to burn the ones who replyed (or didn't) but most of the reactions is just what's wrong with opensource (no offence intended) 
Remember I have more experiance in Windows than other OS, please don't hold it against me. I am willing to learn :stud ï¿½e

lets say a disk fails on your hardware, it's the OS disk (only your pictures and documents, muziek and movies get saved elsewhere) we buy a new disk

Reinstalling windows takes some time, put in cd, download updates, reinstall software. but that's it. 
if you made a backup of c:\document and settings\user you could restore some data . (most of it is garbage) 

The main difference however is that with windows all is downloadble/bought and saving configuration well it's better to write down.


oke now bsd reinstall is the small part, what application(s) I need to restore ?
pff erhm .. all was installed from /usr/ports
how did i configure them ? why didn't I write down grrr. 
For BSD I know /etc,/usr/local/etc/, /var, /usr/local/www,/home, /boot and maybe more locations I need to backup. 
Oww not forgetting the "partitioning" of the disk how did I do that ? 


In my opinion its very difficult to "grasp" this trail and error is of course the best way. but it would be so much helpfull if you can create a sysinstall readable "format" 
backup that allows you to edit/enhance
- remove software you don't need
- adjust slice size where needed
and restores the configuration as you had previously. 

*advantage of opensource*
you can tweak/tune the system to get that 1% of speed gain you want. and actually use it. 
My first impresion was running a P200mmx with windows and MP3 would be garbeld when ever i moved my mouse, then somebody installed opensource on my pc and out of the box I could play 3 mp3 and surf the web.. WHAT that was impressive at least. That sold me. 

But what use does it have when you configured the whole system and your disk crashes ? before you had could make a backup. (still on the "to do list"  to configure. happend to me last time. 
if you could do a simple "backup" and "restore" 
- configuration(s) & tweaks. 
- driver customization
- installed ports 
everything added could be optional but it would be such an advantage. 




> MK wrote:
> further customization can be done with pre-configured sysinstal conf. file loaded by hand.


this sounds nice, and usefull. But to i think this just scratches the potential "user/admin" gain. 

The most lacking in "free Operating systems" + software. is the userfriendly interface. 
99% of the users don't care if it's CLI or Eyecandy 16bilion collours. (last is nice but not relivant) if you ask any potential user would you like to do more with less answer = "sure". but the learning curve of doing something and community support breaks and they failover to windows.. heck their neighbour understands it... 

*bold statement*
The first Opensource community who delivers an download + install via USB stick + a periodic backup onto the same to stick for essential restore of OS and maybe userdata.. 
whell that would realy tip over the balance of the current dominant OS. 
90% don't want a lot of choices to be able to make.. they want something what works. 
the remain 10% want 100% flexibility. 






*@darkshadow*
1) did you read my post ? your question is answered about me reading handbook is answerd there I hate people who reply on posts without reading a post themselfs. 
2) windows has its own builtin backup tool with pre-set backup locations .. (ntbackup) 
+ system restore (restore to point in time means lose ALL data between now and restoration point)
3) better read again, it was security vs production applications. updating potentialy breaking applications. 
4) you can't seperate os from application one is noting without the other. I need both to work. 
5) who said freeBSD was less ? I think it clearly miss things but that doesn't isnot equal to saying its less. 

last I think the focus of the designers/developers to more userfriendly ways to without expense of the current flexibility of...


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## Beastie (Jul 16, 2010)

vso1 said:
			
		

> oke now bsd reinstall is the small part, what application(s) I need to restore ?


Create packages from your installed ports. And if you use packages, use the *-K* option to store them on disk.
In both cases, backup the directory containing your .tbz files, and to restore your applications, reinstall the files with pkg_add(1) (dependencies will be added automatically). Backup your /home/<username>/ directory for the applications/environment settings.



			
				vso1 said:
			
		

> how did i configure them ? why didn't I write down grrr.


Really! If you're not familiar with the system yet, write everything down if it helps.



			
				vso1 said:
			
		

> helpfull if you can create a sysinstall readable "format"
> backup that allows you to edit/enhance
> - remove software you don't need


There are simple commands for installing and removing applications. Read the manual and apply the commands. It can't get easier.
And please don't tell me the handbook and man pages say "go find out for yourself". They're among the most reliable and helpful sources of information I've ever seen, and most of the time they explain everything in great details. Some parts are almost like tutorials. And yes I've used Windows since 3.0 and the only troubleshooting/help I've ever seen is "Please make sure your <insert hardware here> is switched on. Did this help? Yes/No" or some very profound comments that the average guinea pig already knows :OOO
The only good Windows documentation is MSDN, but on FreeBSD we have our own MSDN on our disks!



			
				vso1 said:
			
		

> if you could do a simple "backup" and "restore"


dump(8) & restore(8)? bsdtar(1) -c & bsdtar(1) -x? Aren't these enough?



			
				vso1 said:
			
		

> 99% of the users don't care if it's CLI or Eyecandy 16bilion collours


On the contrary, "they" do very much care! "We" don't. "They" want point-and-click installation and configuration. "We" don't (want nor care).
And that's why "we" chose FreeBSD. Many of us don't even use sysinstall for installing.


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## vivek (Jul 16, 2010)

What you need is a good FreeBSD book that explains everything including UNIX basics. Linux is not FreeBSD and Windows NT/Server is not FreeBSD, so stop comparing.


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## mk (Jul 16, 2010)

no, what he need is point and click user interface. preloaded os with every bit that can ever think about of. if you need tools that are not available/not satisfying, then you make them to suit you. you can make your own livecd loaded with everything that you need for that system (advisable to do it actually). here you stick your home brewed ui, "interactive" backup/restore and everything else. 
this is just like building your own house.


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## UNIXgod (Jul 16, 2010)

It takes some people time to get acclimated to the fact that everything you need is on the system already. Coming from other OSes it's easy to get caught in 'shiny' new toys. Also most tools make their way onto the system on way or another once you start building your ports. If your not interested in scripting your own policy their are many iron clad remote server and tape backup systems in the ports already. Asking questions on the forums, irc, etc. on something that is foreign to you is the best bet to set up something for production usage. Of course we all test and benchmark and I suggest you do the same.

If you interested in creating a usb toaster with your specific project needs I can imagine with a little time and effort you would be able to create your tool yourself.


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## fwaggle (Jul 16, 2010)

vso1 said:
			
		

> If I would be using freebsd as a desktop user, I would want to be able to select a custom "default" user with mailbox that recieves system messages (root mail?)
> Or if I installed as an server it would "redirect" to a mailserver + e-mail adress



That's easy fixed. In /etc/aliases, look for the first line that says:


```
root:
```

and change it to


```
root: someuser
```

Then user someuser will get all the rootmail, periodic output, etc. If you don't particularly care to read mail locally (say you want to read it all from another desktop):


```
root: someuser@somedomain.com
someuser: someuser@somedomain.com
```

Don't forget to run newaliases(1) for it to take effect:

`# newaliases`

The above is particularly useful if you install ports-mgmt/portaudit and put this in your /etc/periodic.conf:


```
daily_status_security_portaudit_enable="YES"
```

Then you get a daily audit of any known security issues with your installed ports.


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## graudeejs (Jul 17, 2010)

Time to close this thread? [Which makes me mad, frankly]
P.S.
I tried very hard not to reply, but I couldn't.....


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## DutchDaemon (Jul 17, 2010)

So long as the thread addresses valid and informed concerns and doesn't lead to mud-slinging, I'll allow it.


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## vso1 (Jul 18, 2010)

if I could code I certainly would build it  

explain: lets say I have USB stick, 90% of the replies say I have to write my own backup utility or script or can use tool x.y.z to get where I want to be. 

I am suggesting .. have someone build into sysinstall a utillity that collects all data I have installed / changed (configuration) and backup to usb .. add /root and /home as an option. (have it added as an cron .. optional) 

now My disk crashes and burns .. I simply get/leave the usb stick on the system and reinstall .. nothing lost. 

My major obstruction to use any opensource vs windows is that I am not realy fond of the idea that I lose all customization(s) tweaks and tuning(s) when a reinstall is needed. 

Major advantage of opensource I don't have to mention do I ? 




			
				Beastie said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any links or howto's ? 

but again people a lot of "build your own house" but surely there has to be be some prefab ? you don't forge your own tools, materials. chop the wood and bake the stone(s) you need. THat is the gap currently pointed out.


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## fronclynne (Jul 18, 2010)

http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin/sysinstall.html
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2004-January/031620.html
Thread 14069

Also http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Freebsd+install.cfg


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## Beastie (Jul 19, 2010)

vso1 said:
			
		

> I have to write my own [...] script or can use tool x.y.z to get where I want to be
> [...]
> a utillity that collects all data I have installed / changed (configuration) and backup to usb .. add /root and /home as an option


Um, okay. I'll repeat this for the third time: use tar. It's a widely-used format and utility that exists in one flavor or another on virtually every *nix system. If you are unwilling to type a single line (okay two, one for archiving, the other for restoring) on your shell or the name of a shell script containing that line, then FreeBSD may not be for you.



			
				vso1 said:
			
		

> My major obstruction to use any opensource vs windows is that I am not realy fond of the idea that I lose all customization(s) tweaks and tuning(s) when a reinstall is needed.


Huh, really? Aside from using Norton Ghost or similar commercial utilities to create disk images, I've never seen any reliable way to restore an entire system as it was, including registry hacks, added .dll files, etc. Windows' native backup tools are so obscure and do so much behind my back that I don't trust them at all. I prefer to know exactly what was copied, how and where. And using simple, well-documented and transparent system commands on FreeBSD does just that.



			
				vso1 said:
			
		

> 99,9% of the users want to up and running as fast as possible, without configuring to much yes. (see above). only advanced users take time to configure and tweak/tune.


It takes me 3 or 4 hours to complete a major RELEASE installation and get the latest version of my entire collection of applications, including ~1/2 hour for the base system setup and configuration (from a backup). Is that too long? And if I already have the applications locally, I'm done within an hour.



			
				vso1 said:
			
		

> it's real easy to get a wininstall and configure 99% before installing on a new system.


Then you have nothing to configure at all, because setup.exe allows only the most basic configuration. The rest of your system and user application configuration is scattered everywhere on the system partition, as actual files or registry keys, on system-wide locations or user profile-specific locations. It can't be easily and rapidly backed up or reconfigured.
sysinstall does just as much as Windows' setup.exe. Plus, users who have already installed FreeBSD before can easily and rapidly restore their configuration from backup since we're talking about plain text configuration files stored in a handful of locations (mostly /boot/loader.conf and /etc).
User-specific configuration is stored in home directories, which can simply be copied from another system or simply left untouched during an update.



			
				vso1 said:
			
		

> yes there are many ways as allways but what is the best method from A-z ?


There is no "best method" for anything in life, not even computers. So it all depends on your needs like you were saying.


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## DutchDaemon (Jul 19, 2010)

vso1 said:
			
		

> 99,9% of the users want to up and running as fast as possible, without configuring to much yes. (see above). only advanced users take time to configure and tweak/tune.



I can assure you that with FreeBSD, this amounts to _much_ more than 0.1%. Especially those who use it on servers don't mind investing some time. It seems that only GUI users want everything yesterday. I think your numbers are more likely to be in the 50/50 range, and I know zero FreeBSD users who complain about taking some time and effort to get things right using trusted CLI tools.


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## Andres (Jul 20, 2010)

This is ridiculous. FreeBSD documentation is, by far, the best I've seen for an os.

In most other projects (read linux distros) the focus is entirely on ports, defeating the purpose of the documentation the original developer has made available, and is mostly user driven without rigorous review.

There is a man page for everything.


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## olav (Jul 22, 2010)

One thing that really impressed me with FreeBSD is the great documentation! And if its not there, something is missing or just not quite clear, I have the forums 
I've spent A LOT less time configuring FreeBSD 8 compared to RHEL 5.3(as long I don't count the time wasted to get Java to work properly).


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