# Recycling Services



## Phishfry (Mar 9, 2022)

Where I live we have trash trucks for recyling waste.
Tidewater Fiber is a private recycling firm here.
They contract with local cities for curbside pickup.
Separate rolling tub. Blue in color.
They pickup the same day as trash pickup. So convenient.

Well in the last two years recycling market collapsed and everything is going to dump.
Tidewater Fiber is asking for more money and some cities are balking.

So our first large city decided to give up curbside recycling.
I suspect more will pony up money. But for how long. One city dropping means more cost for us.

I was a child of the '70's and recycled newspaper, bottles and lead from local firing range.
Early on I learned how fickle the market is. No colored glass could be mixed. Separate by color or no pay.
That is where the issues lay. Separating our wastes and high enough commodity price to support sorters.
Then you need a market to sell into.

Why did recycling work for 50 years and now floundered. We can't blame China for everything.
Can I blame this on lazy millennials for not sorting their debris properly?


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## jbo (Mar 9, 2022)

Millenial here so might be biased: I'd argue that the issue begins at the production of goods - most notably their packaging. Especially the amount of plastic packaging which, as far as I can tell, could be substituted for alternative materials such as paper & cardboard in many cases, is just unsettling.

Here (Switzerland) we still happily sort glass by color. Although we don't have curb-side recycling (Switzerland is densly populated compared to North America). We simply scatter recycling points where one can drop of glass, steel, aluminium/aluminum and oil in various places across villages & cities. Specifically for glass there are three containers for white (clear?), green & brown glass.
Cardboard & greens are collected in regular intervals via curbside pickup.
Note that where I live a "large city" has a population of 8k.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to yell at Americans for their disgusting use of landfills. Around here we burn trash and these trash burning plants are connected to a district heating system to heat large residential buildings and to provide industrial plants with process heat.
I used to work on some projects for a local recycling company. Both them and the operator of the local trash burning plant told me that they actually get a small (!) portion of the collected "recylcing" glass to mix into the trash before burning as glass has an excellent heat capacity to keep the ovens at a more constant temperature to increase the efficiency and therefore reducing the need for external fuel injections.


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## ct85711 (Mar 9, 2022)

I wouldn't necessarily put the blame on "lazy millennials", but more on corporate greed.  Recycling sounds great in theory, but that is about it.  It doesn't help that it costs more to recycle some items, than it does to throw it away and make a new item.  Then it comes to, some materials, it is completely unfeasible to try recycling (i.e plastics) due to the types and the processing/manufacturing process involved.

I know like the city I used to live in, decided that they needed to recycle cardboard.  It was great for at most the first year, by the second year the company had to cut down costs by eliminated half the recycling spots, and switched to just trucking the cardboard to the next state over and dump it in their landfill.  The following year, they eliminated all except 2 dumping spots for a large city (>200k).


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## grahamperrin@ (Mar 9, 2022)

jbodenmann said:


> … Specifically for glass there are three containers for white (clear?), green & brown glass. …



Sensible, and that was previously the norm in the UK, however I have not seen separation in years.

If I understand correctly: separate batches were spoilt, too frequently, by people not using the correct container. Containers were not emptied in good time, and so people (without realising the consequences) used the wrong container type when the proper type was overflowing.



jbodenmann said:


> … the amount of plastic packaging which, as far as I can tell, could be substituted for alternative materials such as paper & cardboard in many cases, is just unsettling. …



It's deeply unsettling. I was horrified when I first saw a single apple hanging from a peg in a large transparent rectangular hard plastic case. One apple per large hard plastic case.

Substitution: years ago, my brother-in-law co-founded a packaging company. The popular shifts to plastics, then away from plastics, are entirely understandable *however* there are cases where a plastic is the most ecologically-friendly solution, but ignored because it is _popular_ to choose a non-plastic alternative that is _supposedly_ more friendly.


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## jbo (Mar 9, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Substitution: years ago, my brother-in-law co-founded a packaging company. The popular shifts to plastics, then away from plastics, are entirely understandable *however* there are cases where a plastic is the most ecologically-friendly solution, but ignored because it is _popular_ to choose a non-plastic alternative that is _supposedly_ more friendly.


Hence I wrote _"in many cases"_ 

Plastic does have the "advantage" of yielding very good heat output when burned. Other than the extra energy required to produce plastic, the heat output from burning it is very comparable (I don't dare to say equal) to burning the initial oil/gas/plants used to make it.
Just don't let it get it into the environment... - American landfills once again... 
The main problem with plastics ending up in the environment, other that they take ages to decompose (also the popular "bio-degradable" ones), is that they break down into tiny flakes under UV exposure make clean-up efforts almost impossible.
While already talking about this: There are also several projects trying to "recycle" plastic into alternative products such as turning them into bricks for paving. That just makes the problem even worse because any street or road-like surface is inherently exposed to wear and tear. Every time you walk or drive over a paving like that you're just creating more micro plastic that the rain then washes away ultimately ending up in the ocean...


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## Phishfry (Mar 10, 2022)

jbodenmann said:


> Just don't let it get it into the environment... - American landfills once again...


I look at them as stored energy. One day we will figure out how to harness them.
Much like nuclear waste. Future generations have plenty of stored energy.
They just need to figure out how to harness it.


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## Vull (Mar 10, 2022)

Recycling is a nice feel-good idea, but can also be seen as giving tacit approval to wasteful corporate packaging practices.

If people quit buying stuff that was wrapped in way too much plastic, corporations would gladly stop packaging things that way. If people quit buying stuff in non-returnable bottles with convenient plastic rings and cheap disposable paper and plastic packaging, corporations might even return to the old practice of bottling their sugary caffeinated slop in returnable glass bottles which were packed into returnable and reusable wooden crates. Very little waste in that old system. Much smaller landfills.

There is always plenty of blame to go around. People buy this crap and then blame the corporations for catering to their selfish desires to buy it and use it. The whole system is market-driven and we are just subsidizing it. Boo hoo. Evil corporations sold me all this wicked stuff, and now I feel oh so guilty about buying it.


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## Hakaba (Mar 10, 2022)

Paper is easy to recycle.
Bottle was only cleaned and refilled.
If you add more intermediates and a cost per ton this is not the same story.
And finally product is more complicated. A yogurt jar was only one piece of recyclable plastic with a piece of paper. Today there is more than 3 different plastics types that are less recyclable.

Same for can, the white "paint" inside can is hard to recycle (and is plastics).
We need to thing about recyclable object in the conception step, not at the end of life.


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## Phishfry (Mar 10, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> years ago, my brother-in-law co-founded a packaging company.


I really don't see how to sell things without packaging. Especially including small parts.

One area really concerns me and that is Styrofoam as used in packaging. That stuff can really spread.
Every time I get Ohama Steaks delivered I think there has to be a better way.


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## grahamperrin@ (Mar 10, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> … Styrofoam … Ohama Steaks …



Seeking _polystyrene burger container_ with Startpage finds this (top result): <https://www.catering24.co.uk/food-p...keaway-containers/polystyrene-containers.html>, *discouraging* use of polystyrene:



> Polystyrene food containers are currently in the process of being banned in Scotland. We predict this will be the case for England and Wales sometime in 2022. To help you, we have put the … eco boxes which are the next best equivalent …
> 
> You can order below as normal, we will still stock polystyrene containers up to the law allows, however, we do encourage customers to make the switch early to an environmentally friendly version such as the …



With or without a ban: in my area (City of Brighton and Hove) it seems to me that polystyrene for food became a rarity some time ago. Hurrah.


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## Crivens (Mar 10, 2022)

With the current unpleasentness only 2h drive away, a lot of sticky brown stuff is heading towards a rotating whirly thing. For future readers, the ukraine invasion. This will certainly affect prices and make recycling more profitable. I'm about to get my bike out and do my shopping/local actions by bike even tough it is fscking cold outside. For you leftpondians, diesel is right now at 11.64$ a gallon.

My grandparents came from small agriculture villages. There was almost no waste. They taught us how to upcycle stuff. In the end, it is you who is responsible. 
What makes it better here, we have a law that allows you to leave extra packing in the shop. Supermarkets have bins at the exit for this. It only takes a small part of buyers to leave the extra two layers at the shop so the shop will no longer sell that brand because it hurts their bottom line. Only enough need to do it. In the end, it is you.

Oh, and there is automatic sorting for glass by colors now.


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## sidetone (Mar 10, 2022)

The problem with using a bike, walking or public transportation, is when I buy things, there's nowhere to securely store them, so I have to plan better and still have to take a full trip for each store I go to. Some bought goods, I can take around with me to different stores, but for others, I can't. For a bike, even though I lock it, I can't leave it out too long. I'll still use these methods despite their inconveniences.


jbodenmann said:


> Around here we burn trash and these trash burning plants are connected to a district heating system to heat large residential buildings and to provide industrial plants with process heat.





jbodenmann said:


> Plastic does have the "advantage" of yielding very good heat output when burned. Other than the extra energy required to produce plastic, the heat output from burning it is very comparable (I don't dare to say equal) to burning the initial oil/gas/plants used to make it.


I've said before elsewhere that waste needs to be burned for generating electricity. Then, people told me nooo, and gave some incomplete excuse that it pollutes too much. What you mentioned is right though, no more than the oil refined or burned at the petrochemical plants for use as fuel. Looking at it this way makes it clearer. It solves more problems, and its pollution is comparable to what is already done. The pollution could be less in some places, because of lower transportation needs. Look at the fuel used to transport so called recyclables great distances, which end up getting disposed of anyway.

It makes sense to use what's meant for recycling that can't be used, like paper and cardboard, to be burned for fuel. A lot of times good material can't be used because of grease stains on cardboard boxes that ruins other cardboard and paper, so it makes more sense to burn this without needing to sort it. Sorting what's meant for recyclables, even if lots of it is used for burning, keeps toxins that can end up in the garbage can out. What's left over would be metals and glass that can be sorted out easier from the ash.

Also, look at how China wants to have access to more fossil fuels, while at the same time having more waste meant for recycling that they no longer accept. If they can't make products out of compacted post consumer cardboard and plastic, why don't they burn that and use it for fuel? They could send those compacted squares meant for recycling on a train to an electricity plant.



Phishfry said:


> One area really concerns me and that is Styrofoam as used in packaging.


Styrofoam needs to be recycled to be used in commercial and residential insulation.


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## Phishfry (Mar 10, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Seeking _polystyrene burger container_ with Startpage finds this


This is what I am talking about:








						Omaha Steaks Styrofoam Shipping Container 21 1/2”x 16 1/4” X 11 3/4”  | eBay
					

Condition is Used.



					www.ebay.com
				




Very nice molded chunk of styrofoam used in shipping with dry ice. Like an extra thick cooler.
They make good storage containers. I am sure they are horrible for the env.


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## mark_j (Mar 11, 2022)

sidetone said:


> I've said before elsewhere that waste needs to be burned for generating electricity. Then, people told me nooo, and gave some incomplete excuse that it pollutes too much. What you mentioned is right though, no more than the oil refined or burned at the petrochemical plants for use as fuel. Looking at it this way makes it clearer. It solves more problems, and its pollution is comparable to what is already done. The pollution could be less in some places, because of lower transportation needs. Look at the fuel used to transport so called recyclables great distances, which end up getting disposed of anyway.


Not only that, rubbish dumps by their nature result in anaerobic bacteria going nuts and producing methane; a far more volatile greenhouse gas (although more short lived than CO2). Very high temperature furnaces used to burn household waste don't produce much pollution at all (at least the more advanced ones I've read about). They also have filtration systems.


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## sidetone (Mar 11, 2022)

mark_j said:


> Not only that, rubbish dumps by their nature result in anaerobic bacteria going nuts and producing methane; a far more volatile greenhouse gas (although more short lived than CO2). Very high temperature furnaces used to burn household waste don't produce much pollution at all (at least the more advanced ones I've read about).


Some rubbish dumps have a layer intended to be impermeable, that has pipes connected to collect methane for use as fuel. This sounds good, but it also sounds like a complicated system which a lot of effort is put in for I'm not sure how much energy is collected.

This may be certain cities or waste disposal companies. I took a school field trip to a place run by one of those companies, they had conveyor belts where workers separated recyclables from waste. The waste that went to this place is the one that's in dumpsters outside of businesses, which are run by that company. In the entrance to the place, they showed tires on the side of a dump heap, saying how those had to stay there because they couldn't recycle them.

I believe they mentioned how they collected methane from the dump sites. There's also descriptions and diagrams of this on the Internet.


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## hardworkingnewbie (Mar 11, 2022)

Recycling is also there to make us feel better about throwaway stuff which could in many cases easily be replaced with reusable replacements. Just consider for a moment McDonald's, KFC, Wendy's, Burger King using regular dishes and non of that paper stuff. It would also save much energy.


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## kpedersen (Mar 11, 2022)

We have cases in the UK where our recycling bins just go to landfill anyway (greedy / corrupt councils and things like that).

In many cases, it is quite expensive to separate cardboard from glass from plastic. The only easy one to separate is certain types of metal. Because of this they often don't bother and ship it abroad or put in landfill.

To try to mitigate against this I keep separate the recyclable materials myself and take it to the local dump (with recycling facilities as big containers and skips) every couple of months. It is quite a bit more work for me but it helps ensure that recycling will occur. For example they likely wont landfill a skip full of glass or a skip full of plastic. It is only "mixed recycling" that I am skeptical about.

That said, all my efforts get instantly undone with just a few days of Apple selling their sh*t landfill phones to a*seholes.


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## sidetone (Mar 11, 2022)

If they burn it, to make electricity, what's left over will be glass and metals. They could do this with tires too, and use the leftover metal (from the tire reinforcement).


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## Phishfry (Mar 11, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> Because of this they often don't bother and ship it abroad or put in landfill.


Norfolk was the home to New York City trash barges.
Oh my god the smell of these things permiated a 5 mile radius.
The biggest crybabies about env and they ship their waste to poorer states to deal with.

Landfills are not pleasant. Burning waste seems bad for env too.
We have waste to energy steam plant with conveyor belt for sorting.
Car batteries, dead babies and animals, all kinds of stuff ends up there.
The blue tubs are just a way to conveniently rid our wastes. The society of convenience.


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## mer (Mar 11, 2022)

I'll second the Omaha steaks shipping container.  Someone sent us a package as a gift maybe 5 years ago.  Steaks were ok (I've had way better), the dry ice was a blast (what engineer hates dry ice?).  The container?  Works great as a beer cooler on the back porch during NH seasons (late fall, winter, early spring).  It's still going strong.

Using recycled items often requires expenditure of energy.  Say a glass beer bottle.  Best case is wash/sanitize, refill, recap.  Worst case, wash, break, mix, melt, recast, sanitize, fill, recap.
Old time farmers would use bottles intact to create windows.

Paper?  cellulose has been used for insulation for a long time, so energy to shred, treat for water/bug proofing, energy to blow into walls.

Plastic shopping bags (maybe a US thing) can be used to create various things like tennis ball coverings, and different microfiber products (blankets, jackets, etc).

It's always been about cost to convert the item to a usable form.  Lots of energy to do that conversion.

Burning/incinerators:  Energy to get the fire lit, maybe keep it going, but often a net gain because of the energy produced (steam to produce electricity).  Cleaning out the leftovers (smelting would be the slag) can be a step ahead in other processes, so again a gain.  The problem: NIMBY (not in my backyard).  Trash incinerators are often proposed, but little built because "I don't want that smell in my house".  Current regulations on the exhaust gases pretty much cover that.

Recycling is like Electric Vehicles:  the problem is shifted elsewhere.  Restaurants:  glass glasses, china plates, metal silverwear are "recycleable" but use energy and water to clean and make ready to reuse.  Paper plates, styrofoam cups, plastic forks, the restaurant is not using energy to clean, but energy is used to create and the consumer causes energy to be used in landfill or burning.

So, if you're still reading, thanks.  My opinion:
Recycling is something that works great in theory, but a mixed bag in reality.  I understand and agree with the concept, do the best I can, but the reality often winds up like #19 or #17, #16.


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## Phishfry (Mar 11, 2022)

The waste to energy plant deserves it own post. It was built by our regional trash authority(SPSA).
It is next to Norfolk Naval Shipyard (Actually located across the river in Portsmouth VA.) and was built to supply steam to the shipyard.

Fast forward 25 years and SPSA gets in money bind and sells plant to private concerns.
Private concerns feel they can extort Navy and gets away with it while Navy builds its own power plant.
Now Navy says screw you guys and does not renew contract.
Waste to energy plant is to close. Natural gas fired turbines takes its place.


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## Phishfry (Mar 11, 2022)

The company that bought the waste to energy plant is a large one.

There is something fishy to me. Wheelabrator has been around forever.
They make machines that sandblast parts with a giant wheel that slings the shot at the part making an easy job of sandblasting parts. There is even a rotary table inside the blast cabinet that spins your part.
Not high tech but better than a manual. Plus slinging the shot is very effective.

So that is Wheelabrator. How did that company become the 'trash to energy' plant company..




__





						Locations | Wheelabrator
					






					www.wtienergy.com
				




Many waste industries in America are rotten. From the mob to dirty politicians.
All those catalytic converters don't just vanish. Nor the AC condensing units.
Big money in certain recycling circles.


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## Phishfry (Mar 11, 2022)

How long did it take to recognize that fly ash from burning coal was really bad shit.
Now imagine what becomes of burnt trash.
Yup. Maybe 50 years we will look back and say 'We didn't know any better" when its just common sense.








						Coal Ash Basics | US EPA
					

Coal ash, also referred to as Coal Combustion Residuals (CCR), is the material produced primarily from the burning of coal in coal-fired power plants.




					www.epa.gov


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## hardworkingnewbie (Mar 11, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Norfolk was the home to New York City trash barges.
> Oh my god the smell of these things permiated a 5 mile radius.


Well, last time I visited NYC that smell was everywhere on the streets, too. Ah, that good old sniff of NY goodness. *sighs*


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## astyle (Mar 11, 2022)

A millennial here... I've seen plastic get used to make lumber for benches and fences.  The worst part of recycling (As I see it) is the amount of effort it takes to produce usable raw material. Bottle caps have to be separate, glue on cardboard is a pollutant, so is paint, and there's a truckload more details to pay attention to. I don't think that it can be just offhandedly dumped on 'inattentive kids'. It takes a PhD to properly sort the stuff, AND follow through.


hardworkingnewbie said:


> Well, last time I visited NYC that smell was everywhere on the streets, too. Ah, that good old sniff of NY goodness. *sighs*


Last time I was in NYC was in 1999, and yeah, it was piles of garbage on the streets (not in Manhattan, though). I thought it was a garbage collector strike, but now I look in online records, maybe not.


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## hardworkingnewbie (Mar 11, 2022)

So I visited NYC 2 years after you, astyle. So you can be finally sure that in 2001 it was still that nice, trademark smell that you've enjoyed back in 1999 for free.


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## Phishfry (Mar 11, 2022)

I had to chuckle at someone beefing on landfills.
Not 90 years ago NYC used to barge their trash offshore and dump it in the ocean.
So I prefer landfills to that.








						The History of New York, Told Through Its Trash
					

In 1948, the landfill at Fresh Kills was marketed to Staten Island as a stopgap measure. No one guessed that it would remain open for more than half a century.




					www.newyorker.com


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## mer (Mar 12, 2022)

Actually I think parts of Boston and NYC are built on top of old landfills


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