# Governments making it up as they go



## teckk (Jun 18, 2013)

Governments ignoring law, twisting facts, and making it up as they go, to get the outcome that they want. I think that it is imperative that we learn how to protect ourselves from the government as well as we can. The video posted here it quite interesting.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ivisions-and-signs-of-trouble-to-come/276931/

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/06/17/58578.htm

http://www.volokh.com/2013/06/17/do...l-procedure-case-of-the-term-salinas-v-texas/

Interesting video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc


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## sossego (Jun 19, 2013)

Jonathon Swift's_A Tale of a Tub_ is  good reference for you to read.

You may also want to add Aldous Huxley's _Island_ and _Brave New World._

Juvenal's opening _Satires_ mentions the corruption of man.

_The Prince_ by Machiavelli shows one different ways of manipulating government for self gain.


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## Crivens (Jun 19, 2013)

Good morning sheeple. Anyone suprised? Really?

Here is some update to the video link.


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## SirDice (Jun 19, 2013)

teckk said:
			
		

> Governments ignoring law, twisting facts, and making it up as they go, to get the outcome that they want.


Did anything change the past 50 years or so? :e


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## NuLL3rr0r (Jun 22, 2013)

teckk said:
			
		

> Governments ignoring law, twisting facts, and making it up as they go, to get the outcome that they want.



That's why we are committed to Anarchism. Governments are the root of all evil.


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## kr651129 (Jun 22, 2013)

sossego said:
			
		

> Jonathon Swift's_A Tale of a Tub_ is  good reference for you to read.
> 
> You may also want to add Aldous Huxley's _Island_ and _Brave New World._
> 
> ...



Brave New World is my all time favorite book.  I read it at least once every couple years.  IMHO all students that reach the highschool level should have to read it.


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## igorino (Jul 6, 2013)

Capitalism, that's the root of all evil. I strongly suggest the reading of Zeitgeist Movement's mission statement thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement*.*


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## graudeejs (Jul 9, 2013)

Above all I think *bad parenting* is _the_ root of all evil.

I know that now for sure since I have _a_ 9 months young baby girl*  (a little, positive, always smiling, innocent creature). If she becomes _a_ bad person that's because me and my wife were bad parents (but I don't think that will happen).

* that's right. I'm _a_ dad for 9 months already.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 9, 2013)

igorino said:
			
		

> Capitalism, that's the root of all evil.


Meh. It's worked pretty good so far. 




			
				graudeejs said:
			
		

> Above all I think bad parenting is the root of all evil.
> 
> I know that now for sure since I have a 9 months young baby girl*  (a little, positive, always smiling, innocent creature). If she becomes a bad person that's because me and my wife were bad parents (but I don't think that will happen).



This. I can't agree more. No one has more effect and influence on a child's life than the parents. Both of them. Present or lack of presence. I deeply regret every big or little thing I've ever said or done to my two boys that was negative. Never intentional. Always out of selfishness or foolishness and without thinking.

Children depend on you for everything. They love you deeply.


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## jrm@ (Jul 9, 2013)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> Meh. It's worked pretty good so far.



And its success is its weakness.  A system where an uneducated, obese *&$%# can drive his Hummer in twelve lanes of traffic to get to the drive through to pick up his extra-super Big Mac, while people on the same planet (maybe even his neighbour) work in factories getting paid less per day than he paid for his Big Mac could use some work.  The environmental degradation that goes with the over consumption kinda sucks too.  Don't get me wrong, I'm for rewarding those that contribute, and as much personal freedom as possible, *unless* that freedom causes harm to others.  Unfortunately, "causes harm to others" is pretty grey and subjective.  I'm not advocating any alternative, just that we are in denial about the problems with our societies, likely because we are too greedy, ignorant, egotistical and lazy to make changes that most of us agree are necessary.  And evolutionary theory explains why being greedy, ignorant, egotistical and lazy makes sense for the individual at the expense of the population.  I blame this pessimistic attitude on an undergraduate ecology and evolution course.  The first lecture was about a classic experiment where yeast were put in a jar with seemingly infinite resources.  As you would expect, the population grew exponentially until the resources ran out.  Then the population crashed.  In some ways, we humans aren't so different from yeast.







P.S. After hearing an interview of David Graeber, I'm looking forward to reading some his work on political systems.


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## throAU (Jul 10, 2013)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> Meh. It's worked pretty good so far.



You're joking right? Good for who?  The top 1 percent.


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## DutchDaemon (Jul 10, 2013)

No political discussions, please. Descriptions are fine, but that's as far as it'll go.


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## fonz (Jul 10, 2013)

jrm said:
			
		

> The environmental degradation that goes with the over consumption kinda sucks too.


For what it's worth: pollution is not limited to capitalistic nations. Sure, depending on whom you ask the USA (being the capital of capitalism, side skipping for a moment whether or not that's a good thing) are either number one or number two on the list of most polluting countries in the world, but most lists of big polluters include several countries that are not capitalistic by any stretch of the imagination.


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## jrm@ (Jul 10, 2013)

Absolutely.  I recall German friends telling me in the former GDR it was common to leave one's window open in the winter when the heating was too high. 

My last post was probably an expression of my frustration that in many systems we tend to become rigid and idealistic and slow to address glaring problems.  Here in Canada there is strong nationalist pride in our socialist health care system.  It has great advantages and has worked very well for decades.  However, in the last decade or two it has begun to collapse under us (new expensive tests, doctors moving abroad), but it seems we are more attached to our _system_ than we are to good health care.


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## ShelLuser (Jul 11, 2013)

Been reading this thread for a while, was bit reluctant to join in, but I guess it can't be helped.

Quite frankly I don't think it's capitalism, socialism or maybe even a plain out dictatorship which are the so called root of (all) evil: it's people.

Capitalism can work flawlessly; as long as people can be happy and satisfied with what they have. Most can; but there will always be people who seem to think they're better than others and start acting accordingly. That works out pretty well if they're nobodies but if they happen to be born into an influential environment and simply don't know any better (and don't _want_ to know) it will end badly.

And that works across all lines.

Bureaucracy? It*'*s not bad _per se_ either, as long as you don't have stubborn fools around who suffer from a superiority complex. Some seem obsessed to draw power from their knowledge of "the rules" and appear totally incapable of doing anything else but to follow said rules to the letter. Even if these rules were actually meant to be mere guidelines ("The letter of the law" vs. "The spirit of the law" for example).

I don't think it's the systems _per se_; it's the people.

I know it sounds clichÃ©d. But as long as you can't take this out of the equation then none of the well known systems will work.

And unfortunately it usually takes 1 person to ruin it for the lot.


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## jrm@ (Jul 11, 2013)

ShelLuser said:
			
		

> Been reading this thread for a while, was bit reluctant to join in, but I guess it can't be helped.



I feel ambivalent too.  On the one hand it's controversial stuff people have been discussing for a long time and it's bound to offend some, but on the other hand it's important and I feel like an ostrich burying my head in the sand if I ignore it.



			
				ShelLuser said:
			
		

> Quite frankly I don't think it's capitalism, socialism or maybe even a plain out dictatorship which are the so called root of (all) evil: it's people.



I agree, but different systems certainly promote/minimize different evils.



			
				ShelLuser said:
			
		

> Capitalism can work flawlessly; as long as people can be happy and satisfied with what they have. Most can; but there will always be people who seem to think they're better than others and start acting accordingly. That works out pretty well if they're nobodies but if they happen to be born into an influential environment and simply don't know any better (and don't _want_ to know) it will end badly.



But this will never, ever go away.  Even psychopaths have selective advantages if they are rare in a population.  This is where the system has to impose limits on the individual for the benefit of the whole.  Where is the balance between tyranny and freedom?  Is there a simple, constant solution?



			
				ShelLuser said:
			
		

> Some seem obsessed to draw power from their knowledge of "the rules" and appear totally incapable of doing anything else but to follow said rules to the letter. Even if these rules were actually meant to be mere guidelines ("The letter of the law" vs. "The spirit of the law" for example).



I couldn't agree more.  Perhaps as important as the system is the adherence to the spirit of the system by the people.  A system that sounds perfect in theory will never work if the people don't feel the system works for them and they spend a lot of energy working against the system instead of with it.



			
				ShelLuser said:
			
		

> I know it sounds clichÃ©d.


This whole post sounds clichÃ©d, but see my first paragraph.



			
				ShelLuser said:
			
		

> And unfortunately it usually takes 1 person to ruin it for the lot.


It's like a mutant strategy invading a (nearly) evolutionarily stable strategy.


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## ShelLuser (Jul 13, 2013)

Ok, so you can't seem to recursively use quotes. I'll just add a small description about the context to keep everything in place.



			
				jrm said:
			
		

> I feel ambivalent too.  On the one hand it's controversial stuff people have been discussing for a long time and it's bound to offend some, but on the other hand it's important and I feel like an ostrich burying my head in the sand if I ignore it.


Yups, my thoughts exactly. And quite frankly; if there's ever a community I'd feel comfortable in discussing topics like these its this one. I doubt you'll see more people in one community which have no problem agreeing that they disagree on something, and that's something unheard of in other places.

[re: *People are the root of evil*]



			
				jrm said:
			
		

> I agree, but different systems certainly promote/minimize different evils.


True, but when you go over the current systems which are in place then I can't really come to any other conclusion that they're all flawed in the end. Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if some of them will eventually get replaced by other, better, ways. But I'm also sure that actually doing so won't be very easy either.

Yet the fun thing (actually it's quite sad IMO) is that I'd sooner see that happening in so called "lesser civilized" countries (at least lesser according to Western media or due to plain ignorance) than the so called modern ones.

For example; one of the former Eastern European countries has embraced the Internet to such extend that most of the government uses it. Citizens can almost literally follow meetings or votes taking place in the government because if it isn't streamed then soon as they're done it's usually all made available on the governments website on the Internet.

I don't recall the name from mind, but they are so depended on the Internet that an attack on their government website actually caused a major panic because it also directly affected their news media.

When compared to my country of Holland those guys are _miles_ ahead. Our government invests heavily in a rather obscure company to keep their websites secure ("DigiNotar"), and when it turns out that the company got overrun due to _extremely_ poor management it (the government) even goes as far as forcing Microsoft to postpone their update which would render the DigiNotar certificates invalid; only because our government was afraid that some of their websites "might stop working".

Who cares if your citizens are now under a real threat of getting swindled on websites which a computer illiterate can't recognize as being fake anymore because all the security certificates will look completely valid? (whoops, that was somewhat of a sneer ).

[re: *People abusing the system*]



			
				jrm said:
			
		

> This is where the system has to impose limits on the individual for the benefit of the whole. Where is the balance between tyranny and freedom?  Is there a simple, constant solution?


Good question, there isn't. What one calls tyranny others call freedom at times.

Something I learned from a good friend, something which totally baffled me, and I'll probably remember that for the rest of my live. I've spend a lot of years on IRC and met quite a few people because of it (most online, some in 'Real Life' too). Amongst which someone I consider to be a good friend who lives in Egypt. Through him I came into contact with a guy living in Kuwait and that contact lasted too, ironically enough thanks to a Dutch comedy show called "Farce Majeur" which once released a "political critical" song called "Koeweit, Koeweit, Koeweit" (that's "Kuwait" in Dutch). Long offtopic story 

Alas; ever since the tensions rose between the US and Iraq I also kept in contact with them and shared the information which we got over here through "Western media" (local Dutch news, CNN, German news, etc.) regarding the situation over there. And they shared the stuff they got through local channels with me. Let's just say that more than often a lot of information we got over here wasn't as complete as it could have been.

But regarding tyrannies..  I was kind of baffled to learn that even though Iraq may not have had the kind of freedom as we would come to expect, the citizens did have limitless access to services such as healthcare which were all funded by the state. If you had a health problem you could go to a hospital and it didn't matter if you were wealthy or poor; you got treated either way.

The last thing I'd expected to learn about an evil tyranny. I guess I somewhat expected a situation comparable to Africa; where many ruler(s) get wealthier and more than often literally let the people in their country starve.



			
				jrm said:
			
		

> Perhaps as important as the system is the adherence to the spirit of the system by the people. A system that sounds perfect in theory will never work if the people don't feel the system works for them and they spend a lot of energy working against the system instead of with it.


Well, this is the reason I like to watch Anime at times. A lot of them dive into somewhat heavier subjects, and sometimes it can be food for thought even though it is all completely fictional.

One of them; _Neon Gensis Evangelion_ (which also happens to be one of my favourites) it is hinted that the government of their city ("Tokyo 3") is actually in the end ruled by 3 individual super computers which each approach a topic in a different manner, sometimes even leading to dilemma's in the programming which then end up with a vote until a majority is reached.

Of course something totally fictional and simply impossible with the stuff we have now. Still food for thought though in my opinion; the ability to present certain subjects to a body which is completely independent and completely non-bias.

(until someone hacks into the system, covers his tracks and...)


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## fonz (Jul 14, 2013)

ShelLuser said:
			
		

> Ok, so you can't seem to recursively use quotes.


I noticed something similar a long time ago. [quote] tags can be nested without problems, but it doesn't happen automagically_[sic]_, presumably to prevent abuse. If you want you can use the multi-quote button and then do some copy-pasting.


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## Crivens (Jul 23, 2013)

Well, regarding the original point, the master told it all. 

As @ShelLuser wrote about affairs in other countries, I can only confirm to that. I met several people from around the world and keep contact with some, and this selective reporting is pretty much going on my nerves. When you mentioned Iraq, what popped up in my mind was the scene with the girl talking about babies being tossed out of incubators. News flash - that was the daughter of the ambassador from a country bordering to Iraq. Guess which one. But the truth comes out, if at all, much to late.


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## sossego (Jul 27, 2013)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/25/us-usa-security-congress-idUSBRE96O18220130725


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## kpa (Jul 27, 2013)

"Facts are stupid things."

-Ronald Reagan


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## Crivens (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't think it is capitalism, communism or whatever. The big problem is that people are people. Read these books and let that sink in some time, think about it.

Regarding facts, let me share a little anecdote with you. The chancellor of our university had a meeting with the mayor, and he was late. He explained this with the timimg of the last conference he had to attend, in the academic realm, which took longer than expected. Because, once you bring up new facts, these cursed scientists change their position on things. The politicans around the table were reported to nod knowingly, but not getting the joke.

@@graudeejs, congratulations. Welcome to the big quest of parenting


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## jh20001 (Aug 7, 2013)

The Goverment will *always* lie, twist and control. Almost everything you see on the news for example, is shaped somehow by politics. Like the Zimmerman case. During the entire trial, much worse crimes than that were committed but never did you see them on nation-wide TV. It was because someone, somewhere wanted you to focus on that one. Was it to bring the race wars into light? Was it to help move a political decision at a state or national level? Or was it to distract you and keep you entertained while something much worse happens in the background. It's sad.


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## DutchDaemon (Aug 7, 2013)

We're veering off into the territory of conjecture and speculation. Stick to facts and descriptions, not opinions and guesses. We do not allow political discussions of that nature.


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## Bobbla (Aug 8, 2013)

*kekeke*

Well, seems like the terrorists over at Lavabit had to bite the dust after a glorious battle with the holy warriors of all that is just and democratic. A great win for that which represents an open and democratic society, the land of the free and home of the brave.

Wiki: Lavabit
http://lavabit.com/

In god we trust.


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## drhowarddrfine (Aug 9, 2013)

@Bobbla You don't know what happened with that, he's not saying, and no one else seems to know either. Everything you just said is one-sided speculation and  conjecture alone. Your political comment is not allowed here either as just just stated by @DutchDaemon (in general).


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## DutchDaemon (Aug 9, 2013)

Aaand scene.


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