# Will FreeBSD merge with other BSDs?



## Anthie (Jan 16, 2014)

Support is less and less for OpenBSD and NetBSD. OpenBSD cannot even pay the bills of electric power.


----------



## ManaHime (Jan 16, 2014)

*Re: Will FreeBSD merger other BSDs?*

Where did you hear that?


----------



## DutchDaemon (Jan 16, 2014)

It's on Theo's blog.


----------



## pkubaj (Jan 17, 2014)

IMO there are too many differences between FreeBSD and OpenBSD, but I believe OpenBSD could merge with NetBSD. They both take portability and clean code very seriously, and after all, OpenBSD was forked from NetBSD.


----------



## fonz (Jan 17, 2014)

pkubaj said:
			
		

> I believe OpenBSD could merge with NetBSD.
> [snip]
> after all, OpenBSD was forked from NetBSD.


Do you remember _why_ that happened in the first place?


----------



## wblock@ (Jan 17, 2014)

Developers occasionally move from one project to another.  As far as a merge, it's hard to imagine how that would -- or could -- work.


----------



## hitest (Jan 17, 2014)

Anthie said:
			
		

> OpenBSD cannot even pay the bills of electric power.



Total bummer.  I love all of the BSDs.  I just bought a CD and a T-shirt.


----------



## Oko (Jan 17, 2014)

No!


----------



## SirDice (Jan 17, 2014)

I would suggest reading up on the reasons why they forked in the first place.


----------



## Crivens (Jan 17, 2014)

fonz said:
			
		

> pkubaj said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's merging the code, not the development teams. Merging the teams back together would be very "interesting".

And it's sad to see that such an effort like OpenBSD would curl up because of the bills.


----------



## SirDice (Jan 17, 2014)

Crivens said:
			
		

> It's merging the code, not the development teams.


Not going to happen. Remember that OpenBSD took five years to audit their code. It's not very likely they're going to merge the code and spend another five years auditing the result.


----------



## hitest (Jan 17, 2014)

Crivens said:
			
		

> And it's sad to see that such an effort like OpenBSD would curl up because of the bills.



Indeed!  I truly hope that does not happen.


----------



## SirDice (Jan 17, 2014)

Well, even if OpenBSD would go the way of the dodo, the source would still be available. It's open source after all. All it needs then is a group of developers willing and able to continue. It's not like the code would suddenly disappear.


----------



## nestux (Jan 17, 2014)

SirDice said:
			
		

> I would suggest reading up on the reasons why they forked in the first place.



Do you have some particular link to read more about that? Thanks. ]=)


----------



## Pushrod (Jan 18, 2014)

If they can't secure funding, it's because no one is using it and cares to support it. OpenBSD may in fact be a better mouse trap, but with lack of interest, it's lights out. In this case, that is both metaphorical and literal.

Death is part of the cycle. If you don't like it, help out. If you don't want to help out, then it's because you don't care. I personally will not be helping out because I do not use it and don't intend to.

EDIT: I just read that email fully. $20k in electrical bills? Sounds more like a grow-op than a build cluster.


----------



## nanotek (Jan 18, 2014)

I only have (limited) experience with FreeBSD, but I hope it remains distinct from the other BSDs. I do have an interest in OpenBSD due to its reputation as the most secure and stable OS, I will experiment with it when I have a spare box. Though I have never used OpenBSD, I hope it receives the needed funding to continue development.

Despite not _using_ the OpenBSD operating system, I felt obliged to make a donation as I use OpenBSD developed technology (for free) frequently; like many others, I presume. In fact, I would go so far as to say my operations depend on said technology. Its influence and developments are integral and inherent in most (if not all) UNIX and psuedo-UNIX derived operating systems, which makes the current situation all the more upsetting. Some surprising remarks and reactions to their current predicament too; the spirit of FOSS isn't often reflected in its userbase.


----------



## kpa (Jan 18, 2014)

I certainly don't want to see OpenBSD disappear because it's still the upstream source for the FreeBSD implementation of the PF firewall, the piece of software that keeps me using the BSD operating systems because there's just nothing like it in the Linux world. In my opinion the biggest weakness (based on how I've understood the OpenBSD project works) of OpenBSD is that the infrastructure for the development is centered on what Theo has put together over the years in his own basement and outside that there's not a whole lot but FTP/CVS mirrors.


----------



## naali (Jan 18, 2014)

I wonder: does this also endanger OpenSSH?


----------



## sossego (Jan 18, 2014)

It's really up to DeRaadt as to what he wants to do with it.


----------



## hitest (Jan 18, 2014)

Pushrod said:
			
		

> Death is part of the cycle. If you don't like it, help out. If you don't want to help out, then it's because you don't care. I personally will not be helping out because I do not use it and don't intend to.



I like and run both FreeBSD and OpenBSD.  However, up until last Thursday I used OpenBSD without paying for it (I bought a CD and a T-shirt).  I do care if OpenBSD goes the way of the dodo.


----------



## fonz (Jan 18, 2014)

hitest said:
			
		

> I do care if OpenBSD goes the way of the dodo.


So do I. While I don't currently use it I have used it in the past(*) and I quite like their approach.

Ad (*): I had an HP workstation (university surplus) that would only run the original HP-UX (yuck  :x) or OpenBSD (so no, at that time not even NetBSD).


----------



## Pushrod (Jan 18, 2014)

I wouldn't worry too much about the fate of OpenSSH or PF, or the couple of other things that have come from the OpenBSD project. Those things will live on because so many people use them. But the OS, and these ridiculous power bills will likely falter, and so be it.

I've never met Mr. De Raadt, nor have I so much as exchanged an email, but if we take his reputation to be true, then maybe the end of the project will teach him that getting along with people has some value. They need a friend, a friend that will help out with this problem, but it seems that they don't have any.


----------



## trh411 (Jan 18, 2014)

Does anyone know what the relative use rates are between/among all the BSD's? That is to say, what percentage of people use FreeBSD vs. OpenBSD vs. theotherBSDs?


----------



## JanJurkus (Jan 18, 2014)

trh411 said:
			
		

> Anyone know what the relative use rates are between/among all the BSD's? That is to say, what percentage of people use FreeBSD vs. OpenBSD vs. theotherBSDs?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... ng_systems The image on wikipedia is from an survey from 2005: http://www.bsdcertification.org/downloa ... n.pdf/view In computer terms, 2005 is like, nine years ago     :beergrin  I think DragonFlyBSD probably has a few more users now.



			
				Pushrod said:
			
		

> I've never met Mr. De Raadt, nor have I so much as exchanged an email, but if we take his reputation to be true, then maybe the end of the project will teach him that getting along with people has some value. They need a friend, a friend that will help out with this problem, but it seems that they don't have any.



I think he needs a better font for his presentations, and a PR manager, so he can focus on the project itself. I'm not a people-person myself, and when I get a lot of inane questions (doing helpdesk work) I get cynical very quickly. He needs somebody like my boss, who knows my cynical attitude, and prepares clients/suppliers for it.


----------



## fonz (Jan 18, 2014)

Pushrod said:
			
		

> if we take his reputation to be true, then maybe the end of the project will teach him that getting along with people has some value.


For what it's worth, I've gotten the impression that Theo is actually more pleasant to deal with than Linus Torvalds. Yet Linus' attitude doesn't appear to hinder the development of Linux.


----------



## ChalkBored (Jan 18, 2014)

nestux said:
			
		

> SirDice said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.theos.com/deraadt/coremail.html


----------



## _martin (Jan 18, 2014)

fonz said:
			
		

> Ad (*): I had an HP workstation (university surplus) that would only run the original HP-UX (yuck  :x)


Depending what version is there, it might not be that much of a "yuck" . Well, it does depend what you want to use it for.


----------



## Pushrod (Jan 18, 2014)

fonz said:
			
		

> Pushrod said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you sure? I would imagine that Linus' demeanor is actually hindering the project a fair bit. The difference is that he is getting away with it because the project is so successful on its own.


----------



## ChalkBored (Jan 18, 2014)

Pushrod said:
			
		

> fonz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Linus is one of the few things keeping Linux from being ripped to shreds by all of the big names wanting it for themselves. I'll have some popcorn ready the day he decides to hang it up.


----------



## cpm@ (Jan 20, 2014)

The tables have turned! Good news for OpenBSD users: http://ow.ly/sKuvH.


----------



## kpa (Jan 20, 2014)

I stopped reading at:



> In case you didn’t know, the open source Linux operating system OpenBSD was at the verge of getting shut down,


----------



## cpm@ (Jan 20, 2014)

kpa said:
			
		

> I stopped reading at:
> 
> 
> 
> > In case you didn’t know, the open source Linux  operating system OpenBSD was at the verge of getting shut down,


I guess that a corrigendum in this case proceeds :O

P.S. It was amended:


> In case you didn’t know, the open source Unix-like operating system OpenBSD was at the verge of getting shut down, because of the lack of funds that the project required to keep the lights on.


----------



## Beastie (Jan 20, 2014)

And more good news for OpenBSD users...



> Greetings All,
> 
> About a week ago I warned you all that the OpenBSD project did not
> have the funds to cover our bills for the past year (especially the
> ...


----------



## dndlnx (Jan 26, 2014)

DutchDaemon said:
			
		

> It's on Theo's blog.



Where is this blog you speak of?


----------



## jrm@ (Jan 26, 2014)

dnix said:
			
		

> DutchDaemon said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see anything on a blog, but you can read the mailling list discussion.


----------



## nanotek (Jan 29, 2014)

LOL.



			
				some blogger said:
			
		

> Those who taste the de Raadt wrath, however, always run in the end. A friend of mine once incurred his ire by asking the wrong question at the wrong time, and Theo de Raadt hacked his router and remotely remapped his keyboard!
> 
> [...]
> 
> This is abuse, plain and simple, and Theo's relationship with his developers is abusive. I feel bad for anyone who has to engage him in real life, and fear something Reiser-like happening in the future. This controlling, manipulative attitude coupled with periodic violent outbursts indicates a deep-seated mental health issue that has gone unchecked for far too long. If you are an OpenBSD developer, watch your back!



I don't know if any of this is true, but Theo sounds like the kind of guy I would buy a drink. Good on him for not taking crap from less ardent and diligent developers who want to do things the easy way. OpenBSD > everything else, and I believe Theo has everything to do with that.

*References*
http://www.trollaxor.com/2010/06/why-i- ... enbsd.html


----------



## ShelLuser (Jan 29, 2014)

fonz said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, I've gotten the impression that Theo is actually more pleasant to deal with than Linus Torvalds. Yet Linus' attitude doesn't appear to hinder the development of Linux.


Well, the bigger the project (and higher the prestige) the more stuff people seem to tolerate.


----------



## Crivens (Jan 29, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> ...
> *References*
> http://www.trollaxor.com/2010/06/why-i- ... enbsd.html



The site name "www.trollaxor.com" does not ring a bell?


----------



## throAU (Jan 29, 2014)

gpatrick said:
			
		

> "Archive of the mail conversation leading to Theo de Raadt's departure" http://www.theos.com/deraadt/coremail.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Keep reading the mail archive, without reading until the end you really don't get the full picture.


----------



## nanotek (Jan 30, 2014)

Crivens said:
			
		

> nanotek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course, hence the ostentatious '*References*.' Although, some of the reports in this thread cast similar aspersions on our good friend Theo, so it wouldn't be naive to believe the Troll.


----------



## sulman (Jan 31, 2014)

ShelLuser said:
			
		

> fonz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				George Bernard Shaw said:
			
		

> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround him... The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself... All progress depends on the unreasonable man."



I've no doubt Theo and Linus are difficult men. The people in those positions, they usually are. Every really great boss I've ever had hasn't necessarily been that kind to me.


----------



## zspider (Jan 31, 2014)

No, because they're all different culturally and technically. They also have different objectives.


----------



## kpedersen (Jan 31, 2014)

The only operating systems that would be feasible to merge are all those thousands of Linux distributions.

FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD are actually different (kernel, package system, rc-scripts, etc...), as opposed to just providing a different default theme for GNOME  I am grouping PC-BSD and GhostBSD as part of FreeBSD but even potentially the smallest member of the BSD family (DragonFlyBSD?) is so very different to the others.


----------



## nanotek (Jan 31, 2014)

I tried my hand at OpenBSD a few days ago: I hated it. And after reading this thread I was too scared to post for help on the OpenBSD mailing list 

I hope FreeBSD remains independent.


----------



## JWJones (Jan 31, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> I tried my hand at OpenBSD a few days ago: I hated it. And after reading this thread I was too scared to post for help on the OpenBSD mailing list


What did you hate about it? I like it quite a bit.


----------



## scottro (Jan 31, 2014)

When viewing the forums yesterday, I glanced through this thread.  (At that time, I think the last post was about Theo's personality.) By coincidence, the next thread showing was "Empathy fails to load."

I found this amusing, pointed it out to my co-worker and said, "Well, _there's_ your problem."


----------



## hitest (Feb 1, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> I tried my hand at OpenBSD a few days ago: I hated it. And after reading this thread I was too scared to post for help on the OpenBSD mailing list
> 
> I hope FreeBSD remains independent.



Really?  I love OpenBSD as much as FreeBSD.  What didn't you like about OpenBSD?


----------



## nanotek (Feb 1, 2014)

JWJones said:
			
		

> nanotek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				hitest said:
			
		

> nanotek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Candidly, I can't articulate why. I've reluctantly become dependent on ports with FreeBSD, whereas OpenBSD advocate package installs. I couldn't properly grasp the release model and/or how to most effectively stay up-to-date. Admittedly, it was a very brief run in a VM and with very little (read: no) research beforehand. When I have more time I'll read up on it and install it to this old notebook I picked up today. I'd like to test OpenBSD as a wireless AP/router and probably run a mail server or another Tor relay on it, so nothing special.

Suffice to say, I just didn't do my homework and am too used to FreeBSD.


----------



## JWJones (Feb 1, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> Candidly, I can't articulate why. I've reluctantly become dependent on ports with FreeBSD, whereas OpenBSD advocate package installs. I couldn't properly grasp the release model and/or how to most effectively stay up-to-date. Admittedly, it was a very brief run in a VM and with very little (read: no) research beforehand. When I have more time I'll read up on it and install it to this old notebook I picked up today. I'd like to test OpenBSD as a wireless AP/router and probably run a mail server or another Tor relay on it, so nothing special.
> 
> Suffice to say, I just didn't do my homework and am too used to FreeBSD.


I can understand that, for sure. Kind of the OS equivalent of "tl;dr."  :beergrin


----------



## hitest (Feb 1, 2014)

nanotek said:
			
		

> Candidly, I can't articulate why. I've reluctantly become dependent on ports with FreeBSD, whereas OpenBSD advocate package installs. I couldn't properly grasp the release model and/or how to most effectively stay up-to-date. Admittedly, it was a very brief run in a VM and with very little (read: no) research beforehand. When I have more time I'll read up on it and install it to this old notebook I picked up today. I'd like to test OpenBSD as a wireless AP/router and probably run a mail server or another Tor relay on it, so nothing special.
> 
> Suffice to say, I just didn't do my homework and am too used to FreeBSD.



I understand.  From my experience OpenBSD and FreeBSD are both outstanding operating systems.  Each to his own.  :beergrin


----------



## Cthulhux (Feb 13, 2014)

I had to set up an OpenBSD box recently as FreeBSD's wpa_supplicant decided to stop working after the first reboot. OpenBSD works like a charm. It seems like I'll stick with it on this one machine.

Of course it lacks the "friendliness" of the FreeBSD community; after all, the OpenBSD developers develop for themselves in the first place, not for the needs of John Doe who just wants to make the newest games and GNOMEs work.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 17, 2014)

I've not followed this thread at all but the title bothers me. It would be other BSDs that would merge into FreeBSD. FreeBSD would not be merging with them. I'm just being a little anal today.


----------



## Oko (Feb 18, 2014)

@@DutchDaemon

This thread really should be closed as it serves no purpose other than kids bubbling about things they have no clue about. I think more higher-level technical discussion and less uninformed BS would be good for any BSD portal.


----------



## fonz (Feb 18, 2014)

@Oko, rest assured that we're monitoring threads like these and will lock them and/or delete posts when necessary


----------

