# my experience



## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

hello guys,

i am new to the forum and to freebsd too, i installed freebsd 7.2 a couple of weeks ago on virtualbox to give it a try, it looked very similar to linux so i wanted to give it a try as a real operating system, i was expecting something better than linux, i have to say i am very disappointed..

my usb mouse didn't work out of the box, fortunately after configuring "Xorg -configure" and copying xorg.conf to /etc/X11/xorg.conf Option AllowEmptyInput" "off" did  the trick

the next challenge was getting my wireless usb device to connect to my router, here is what i did:


```
shell> wpa_passphrase ssid password > /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf
shell> wpa_supplicant -i re0 -c /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf
shell> 
ioctl[SIOCGB80211]: Invalid argument
ioctl[SIOCG80211, op 16]: Invalid argument
Failed to initialize driver interface
```

that was it, no internet, no available solution 
i never had a problem with my wireless device in linux or even in windows

lastly, another big disappointment, i run kde:
shell> /usr/local/kde4/bin/kdm
i can't do anything without moving the mouse :\ i write something and it doesn't show up unless i move the mouse, i click on an icon of a program and it doesn't run, again i have to move the mouse..

what is wrong with FreeBSD?


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

the problem with moving the mouse is solved by disabling the mouse daemon in sysinstall 

*other problems*:
no sound  "oss not working falling back to ."

no nvidia driver, i understand that it is still being developed

can't mount ext4 drives:

```
mount -t ext2fs /dev/ad0s5 /mnt/mydrive

GEOM_LABEL: Label ext2fs//home removed .
WARNING: mount of ad0s5 denied due to unsupported optional features
GEOM_LABEL: Label for provider ad0s5 is ext2fs//home .
```


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## SirDice (Jun 18, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> what is wrong with FreeBSD?


There's nothing wrong with FreeBSD, you just need to get your hands dirty. This means configuring _everything_ yourself.

Start by reading the handbook, all your questions are answered there.

Wireless:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/network-wireless.html

Xorg:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x-config.html

KDE:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x11-wm.html


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

thanks for your reply 

i don't have a problem configuring everything providing that they will work after configuring them 

thanks for suggesting the manual, very classic lol

unfortunately i don't think the manual covers everything
reading the manual won't make me run the OS with nvidia driver because it is just not finished yet, it won't get ext4 to work, i read a few minutes ago it isn't supported by FreeBSD

i read the wireless page of the manual yesterday, then i spent hours trying to find an answer to the error i put above:

```
ioctl[SIOCG80211, op 16]: Invalid argument
Failed to initialize driver interface
```

regarding sound, i have a similar problem in linux, a notification pops up in kde, but i still get sound which is not the case in FreeBSD


----------



## tangram (Jun 18, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> thanks for your reply
> 
> i don't have a problem configuring everything providing that they will work after configuring them
> 
> ...



I think this is a typical expectations problem. FreeBSD is not Linux nor Linux is FreeBSD.

It's not supposed to be configured through point and click. It will require pro-activeness from the user, i.e. reading the FreeBSD Handbook, FAQs and man pages. Do not expect hand walking.

Ext4 is a Linux filesystem but honestly are there any compiling reasons as to why should FreeBSD support it? Especially when ZFS is becoming more and more mature.

Regarding you hardware / driver problems you failing to provide any details on which hardware do you have.


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

yes i know linux and freebsd are not the same, they are both operating systems though and i expect them to support my hardware.

i am not looking for a point and click operating system, i already have that, i needed something more stable and more mature, that is what is always being said about FreeBSD..

why shouldn't FreeBSD support everything? i am not sure how hard it is, ext4 is the next filesystem for linux, why not support it and make everybody making the transition to FreeBSD happy?

regarding my hardware:
wireless device:
Realtek_RTL8187
RTL8187 Wireless Adapter

sound card:
Realtek ALC885


----------



## tangram (Jun 18, 2009)

Have a look at FreeBSD 7.2-RELEASE Hardware Notes to see if your hardware is supported or not.

According to snd_hda(4), Realtek ALC885 have been verified to work. Just follow the steps explained in the man page and you should get sound working.

The FreeBSD Handbook also has a chapter on Setting Up the Sound Card. Have look here for more info.

Regarding the wireless adapter investigate:
http://freebsd.markmail.org/search/?q=realtek+8187
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2009-January/002416.html
http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=1378


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

thanks very much  in /boot/loader.conf snd_hda_load="YES" did the trick 
some videos don't have sound though, maybe some codecs are missing? i will look into that later or provide info..

back to my biggest problem, the wireless device, i rebooted my pc dozens of times to check the internet for solutions that would make it work and then try them in FreeBSD..


```
/etc/rc.d/netif start
Starting wpa_supplicant.
ioctl[SIOCG80211, OP 16]: Invalid argument
Failed to initialize driver interface
re0: no link .............. giving up
lo0: flags=8049<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 16384
	inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x3
	inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128
	inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000
re0: flags=8802<BROADCAST,SIMPLEX,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MCAST,WOL_MAGIC>
	ether 00:1a:4d:5e:1b:f1
	media: Ethernet autoselect (10baseT/UTP <half-duplex>)
	status: no carrier
```


----------



## SirDice (Jun 18, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> no nvidia driver, i understand that it is still being developed


There is. x11/nvidia-driver. It just doesn't work on FreeBSD-amd64 (yet). Unless you have more then 3-4GB I highly recommend sticking to FreeBSD-i386.



> i am not sure how hard it is, ext4 is the next filesystem for linux, why not support it and make everybody making the transition to FreeBSD happy?


And how many linux users are currently using ext4?



> back to my biggest problem, the wireless device, i rebooted my pc dozens of times to check the internet for solutions that would make it work and then try them in FreeBSD..


Please post the relevant parts of /etc/rc.conf and /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf.


----------



## tangram (Jun 18, 2009)

Regarding the video issue check your compile options, you're probably missing codecs or something. Personally I use mplayer for video playback and it works great.

Also check the Handbook Video Playback.

As for the networking issues, judging from the code you've pasted I don't think you've understood how FreeBSD names network interfaces. 

Linux usually names network interfaces incrementally, i.e. eth0, eth1, ..., ethn. 

FreeBSD however names them according to the driver that supports the NIC. For instances my NIC is RTL8139C+ which is supported by the re(4) driver and goes by the name of re0.I also have a D-Link DFE-528TX NIC that is supported by rl(4) driver so it goes by the name of rl0.

I doubt that a wireless device is supported by re(4) which is what you have in your output.

That said take a look at Wireless Networking and probably Using WindowsÂ® NDIS Drivers.


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## tangram (Jun 18, 2009)

If using i386 and NVIDIA have a look at HOWTO: Install and configure NVIDIA drivers.


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## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

SirDice said:
			
		

> There is. x11/nvidia-driver. It just doesn't work on FreeBSD-amd64 (yet). Unless you have more then 3-4GB I highly recommend sticking to FreeBSD-i386.


i downloaded amd64 because i am used to downloading the amd64 version of operating systems, maybe i was too optimistic when i thought the nvidia driver would be ported soon..



			
				SirDice said:
			
		

> And how many linux users are currently using ext4?


i am not sure, but i am one of them lol



			
				SirDice said:
			
		

> Please post the relevant parts of /etc/rc.conf and /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf.



rc.conf


```
hostname="beautifulfish.bsd.local"
defaultrouter="192.168.1.1"
ifconfig_re0="ssid HomeNetwork inet 192.168.1.2 netmask 255.255.255.0"
ifconfig_re0="WPA DHCP"
proto=WPA
key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
```


wpa_supplicant.conf


```
network={
	ssid="HomeNetwork"
	scan_ssid=1
	proto=WPA
	key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
	pairwise=CCMP TKIP
	#psk="my password"
	psk=64 numbers and letters...
}
```



			
				tangram said:
			
		

> Regarding the video issue check your compile options, you're probably missing codecs or something. Personally I use mplayer for video playback and it works great.
> 
> Also check the Handbook Video Playback.



i use mplayer with my linux installation and it is great, i will install it and run the video again.. i hope it is in the dvd



			
				tangram said:
			
		

> As for the networking issues, judging from the code you've pasted I don't think you've understood how FreeBSD names network interfaces.
> 
> Linux usually names network interfaces incrementally, i.e. eth0, eth1, ..., ethn.
> 
> ...



sysinstall - configure - networking
it says it is re0 :\



			
				tangram said:
			
		

> That said take a look at Wireless Networking and probably Using WindowsÂ® NDIS Drivers.



i read them 



			
				tangram said:
			
		

> If using i386 and NVIDIA have a look at HOWTO: Install and configure NVIDIA drivers.



i will give it a try hopefully the wireless problem is solved, i am still hoping for an amd64 driver


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## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

i wish i could edit my last post lol

these 2 lines are not in my /etc/rc.conf

```
proto=WPA
key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
```


----------



## SirDice (Jun 18, 2009)

Don't hold your breath while waiting for the amd64 nvidia-driver 
The needed changes in the kernel have only recently been included in 8.0-CURRENT. It will take a while to get everything sorted.

As for your "wireless". The re0 refers to your wired (probably onboard) ethernet, not the Wifi. Hence the wireless setup won't work.

AFAIK your realtek wireless card isn't supported and you probably need to use ndis(4) to get it to work.


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## tangram (Jun 18, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> i use mplayer with my linux installation and it is great, i will install it and run the video again.. i hope it is in the dvd



If it isn't in the installation DVD just install using the ports tree or packages. Ports provide control over compile options which is very important in ports that have tons of options like mplayer.



> sysinstall - configure - networking
> it says it is re0 :\



AFAIK re(4) is wired only. Sysinstall doesn't pick up everything, especially in the case of NICs that need ndis(4).

Do read the wireless link I gave, especially http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=1378.


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## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

installed totem from the dvd and it installed the required codecs and now the videos have sound 

yes you are right guys, that was n00bish of me lol re0 is my onboard ethernet, so how can i get the device name?

i did read the links tangram 

i don't have windows installed but i have the device driver cd somewhere  it seems it won't work though:
http://www.nntpnews.net/f4025/rtl8187-drivers-freebsd-usb-wlan-device-605774/

so is this the end? no internet


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## tangram (Jun 18, 2009)

Hmm... how about trying what the guy on post #17 of http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=1378 tried to do?

It's for RTL8187SE but it could work.

Also the forthcoming FreeBSD 8.0 will have RTL8187 supported by the urtw driver.


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## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

i don't have an msi motherboard and i don't know what ndiscvt is..

i searched realtek site, but i am not sure which driver i should download and what i should do after downloading it 

```
http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads/searchView.aspx?keyword=8187
```

is RTL8187 already supported by FreeBSD 8.0? if it is then maybe i should give it a try..
i am not sure which debugging options i should disable in 8.0, i read somewhere that it has them


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## tangram (Jun 18, 2009)

ndiscvt(8).

So what the driver was provided for an MSI motherboard? Focus on chipsets on hardware brands.

As for RTL8187 and FreeBSD 8 -> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2009-January/002416.html.


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## wonslung (Jun 18, 2009)

I am running KDE4 on my laptop right now, i'm using it to post this.  It took some setting up to get everything working right but it was worth it.  It FEELS faster than linux, especially network related stuff.  Firefox doesn't crash as much (for some reason firefox3 locks up a lot in linux, don't ask me why) On ubuntu i'd have problems with pidgin suddenly loosing sound or crashing and would require a complete reboot to fix.  This has never happened on freebsd.  I admit it does take more work to get a usable desktop but once you take the time to do it, it's much much more stable..  The only thing is that there are FEWER options on freebsd right now but i see that changing in the next couple years.  My progression has been like this:

Windows => Ubuntu => Debian => Gentoo => Freebsd

Every step along the path brings me closer to where i want to be, The thing i like about freebsd more than the others is how logical it's set up.
I love the idea of a /etc/make.conf file and an /etc/sysctl.conf and /etc/rc.conf
It's just great stuff.


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## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

i am not sure what you mean, also 8187SE is a chipset not usb, maybe my device is 8187B, i am not sure, i am not sure what the exact command of ndiscvt is, i am not sure which windows driver i should use, xp or vista or NT64... :\

15 hours now since i woke up, still no internet with FreeBSD, i think it is time for me to give up 

i wonder what will happen if i connect my printer, my mobile phone or my digital camera :r

thanks very much for your help, i hope i didn't waste your time


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## wonslung (Jun 18, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> i am not sure what you mean, also 8187SE is a chipset not usb, maybe my device is 8187B, i am not sure, i am not sure what the exact command of ndiscvt is, i am not sure which windows driver i should use, xp or vista or NT64... :\
> 
> 15 hours now since i woke up, still no internet with FreeBSD, i think it is time for me to give up
> 
> ...



what type of internet device is this? a usb wifi device?

If this is a desktop you can pick up an atheros based wifi card for 10-20 dollars and all of those work amazingly under freebsd.

What device is this?


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## BeautifulFish (Jun 18, 2009)

hello wonslung, thanks for sharing 

my progression is:
Windows > Mandriva > Sabayon "gentoo based"

Sabayon is very good, the emerge/equo utility is very similar to ports which i find is the best way to manage packages and software, but Sabayon isn't very stable, it is easy to get conflicting packages, for example emerge world is broke for me and i can't get it to work, also i don't think i every heard a sound coming out of pidgin lol

yes my device is a usb wifi, i googled it and finally i can provide you with a link 
http://www.azwave.com/product_AW-GU210_1.asp

btw i downloaded FreeBSD 8.0 , how can i remove the debug options and how can i use the urtw driver?


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## wonslung (Jun 18, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> hello wonslung, thanks for sharing
> 
> my progression is:
> Windows > Mandriva > Sabayon "gentoo based"
> ...



it would be a lot more helpful to find out what hardware it uses.

Theres a lot of those no name devices floating around but they all have realtek, intel, atheros....or some other actual named hardware inside

once you know THAT it'll be easier to track down the correct way to make it work.


as far as freebsd 8 goes, i don't use it....i stick to 7-stable...thats' the extent of my daring.


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## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

from kinfocenter in linux:

```
Vendor ID	0xbda	(Realtek Semiconductor Corp.)
Product ID	0x8187	(RTL8187 Wireless Adapter)
Revision	1.00
```

i just installed 8.0 in virtualbox, it is much faster than 7.2 regarding boot time, i can't install packages though..

sysinstall - configure - packages

```
Unable to get packages/INDEX file from seleted media.
```

also something is wrong with the up/down cursors, they skip choices and sometimes they don't move :/


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## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> from kinfocenter in linux:
> 
> ```
> Vendor ID	0xbda	(Realtek Semiconductor Corp.)
> ...




i can tell you for sure that there is no rtl8187 driver yet.

my router is freebsd and the motherboard i used had that exact chip for the onboard wifi.

It doesn't work yet.

Just buy a cheap atheros 5x...they are like 10 bucks


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## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

ok take a look here:
http://www.freebsd.org/relnotes/CURRENT/hardware/support.html#WLAN



```
The urtw(4) driver supports Realtek RTL8187L based wireless network devices, including:

      Netgear WG111v2

      Safehome WLG-1500SMA5

      Shuttle XPC Accessory PN20
```

is that going to work with my device?

i am not sure i will be able to do that, this reminds me of when i first tried to install linux about 8 years ago or something, it didn't support my modem and the only suggestion was to buy a new one..

what happens then if i plug my digital camera and it didn't work? should i buy a new one? the same applies for nvidia graphics card, if FreeBSD amd64 don't have a nvidia driver then there is no way i am buying an ATI card or whatever that is currently supported, i will wait till it is supported, hopefully soon, until then i have to say that linux is a much better choice..

i read that wine is better in linux than it is for FreeBSD, VirtualBox isn't ready in FreeBSD yet, i mentioned the nvidia driver, maybe linux doesn't have a good support/software for my mobile phone, but i don't think that FreeBSD will be excel in that field now that it doesn't support my usb wireless that is being supported natively by windows and linux and probably by mac too.

here is another annoying bug, konsole runs only once then it can't be run again till i reboot.


----------



## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> ok take a look here:
> http://www.freebsd.org/relnotes/CURRENT/hardware/support.html#WLAN
> 
> 
> ...



If you care about Nvidia support, run 32 bit, wine runs fine on 32 bit freebsd as well. Not all devices are going to be supported in freebsd OR linux, it's a fact of life.  If all you care about is device driver support then windows is your best bet honestly.

If you want a stable system with a superior network stack and don't mind getting your hands somewhat dirty, then you can probably make it work for you...but if you want everything to work out of the box, and easily then you're going to be disapointed.

i thought that driver was a solaris driver?


----------



## DrJ (Jun 19, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> if FreeBSD amd64 don't have a nvidia driver


There are drivers that work for nVidia cards; the most useful probably is "nv".  vesa also works.  FWIW, the binary 64-bit nVidia driver is probably a month or two away.


> VirtualBox isn't ready in FreeBSD yet


VBox is in the ports tree.  It still has some bugs for some cases (it is very new), but usually it works very well.


> FreeBSD ... doesn't support my usb wireless that is being supported natively by windows and linux and probably by mac too.


That may be, but FreeBSD does not support every device out there.  It works for most things, but not all.  I've no experience with wireless cards (I much prefer a hard-wired connection) so I cannot offer specific advice.  I will say that purchasing an inexpensive wireless card is good.  You know that will work.

If you really want support for all devices you might encounter, then FreeBSD is not for you.  You have to choose your hardware to work right.  If you do not wish to think about this, then Windows is a better bet.  *Everything* works in Windows, more or less.


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

wonslung said:
			
		

> If you care about Nvidia support, run 32 bit, wine runs fine on 32 bit freebsd as well. Not all devices are going to be supported in freebsd OR linux, it's a fact of life.  If all you care about is device driver support then windows is your best bet honestly.
> 
> If you want a stable system with a superior network stack and don't mind getting your hands somewhat dirty, then you can probably make it work for you...but if you want everything to work out of the box, and easily then you're going to be disapointed.
> 
> i thought that driver was a solaris driver?



well as i said earlier, i don't mind getting my hands dirty providing that everything will work eventually.

for example compositing isn't turned on in xorg but i didn't complain about that, i know i have to go and read about how to turn it on..

solaris? :S it is a FreeBSD 8.0 driver as far as i know



			
				DrJ said:
			
		

> There are drivers that work for nVidia cards; the most useful probably is "nv".  vesa also works.  FWIW, the binary 64-bit nVidia driver is probably a month or two away.
> 
> VBox is in the ports tree.  It still has some bugs for some cases (it is very new), but usually it works very well.
> 
> ...



hello DrJ, thanks for participating 

about nvidia driver, that is very good news  a -ve thing being removed from my list lol

about VBox, again great news 

lets hope for good wine under amd64


i preferred a wired connection too till i moved my pc to another room, wireless connection seems very convenient 

10-20 bucks isn't inexpensive for me looking at what i earn now, especially that i already have a device doing the same job.

suggesting windows is almost insulting  i really think windows is a bug, i am not looking for an OS to support ALL hardware, all i am saying is this:
FreeBSD is more or less similar to linux, if linux supports my hardware, how hard is it for FreeBSD to support it?


i am not following


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

take a look at this:
http://forums.pcbsd.org/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5960
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, *2006* 9:45 am :\

my current questions:
1- FreeBSD 8.0 i386, does it solve the wireless usb driver issue?
2- if yes then what should i do to make it work?
3- how to remove debug options?
4- how to solve this error:

```
Unable to get packages/INDEX file from seleted media.
```


----------



## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> take a look at this:
> http://forums.pcbsd.org/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5960
> PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, *2006* 9:45 am :\
> 
> ...



you can remove the debug options by recomiling the kernel, i THINK they are something like 
	
	



```
makeoptions DEBUG=-g
options GDB
options DDB
options KDB
```
 but i'm kinda new myself, i'm SURE it's in the handbook somewhere.  just google kernel debug freebsd options or something.

If you really want to use freebsd as a newbie i REALLY wouldn't use 8.0, it is REALLY not for people who are new to freebsd, you should be using 7.2-release and MAYBE 7.2-stable if you're adventurous but not 8.0  That's more for people who have a high understanding of freebsd and want to help test it, theres also a part of the handbook that says basically that if i remember right.

If you really want to use freebsd, (which you should =)) you need to seriously consider finding hardware that works for freebsd.

it's a usb wifi card, i mean, get a cheap pci wifi card on newegg or even a used one on ebay for next to nothing.





> 24.5.1.2 Who Needs FreeBSD-CURRENT?
> 
> FreeBSD-CURRENT is made available for 3 primary interest groups:
> 
> ...


 from http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/current-stable.html#CURRENT


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

thanks, i am recompiling it now in VBox 
i commented

```
makeoptions DEBUG=-g
```
and the lines below:

```
#Debugging for use in -current
```

well i am running FreeBSD for the first time if i exclude running it in VBox, so i will make this as adventurous as possible lol after all i can always format and install any other version 

i really wanna use FreeBSD, i wanna see that kind of stability everybody talks about, unfortunately till now all i can see is less hardware support and less software compatibility

maybe i will just move my pc to the other room lol this kind of decision can be made by a really adventurous user 

lets hope FreeBSD supports my built-in ethernet card, buying a new motherboard is out of the question


----------



## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

an argument could be made that there is more software compatibility, you're just using the wrong software.

My point is this:  Freebsd can run all the freebsd stuff + much fo the linux binaries.  You won't find the same level of support for SOME software because it's simply not as hot of a development hotbed as linux is.  Stability and security come at a cost.

If you want hardware compatibility, then you can pick windows, if you want to use a *nix system that supports the most software, you can probably go with Debian.  If you want *nix that supports 16 cpu's go with open solaris, see what i'm saying? each os has it's stregnths and weaknesses
you can't come in saying "i want to run freebsd but i expect it to use everything i already have AND run all the software i ALREADY run"

You need to set more realistic goals.

If you want to run freebsd, then you need to come in with the attitude that you will LEARN freebsd and find analogs for what you're used to.  Don't expect it to run like windows, don't expect it to run like linux, don't expect it to run like solaris.

Expect it to run like FreeBSD

freebsd supports almost every normal ethernet card. Though, i prefer to switch mine out with Intel cards because they are soooooo much better than the realtek and marvel cards that come with most motherboards


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

wonslung said:
			
		

> an argument could be made that there is more software compatibility, you're just using the wrong software.


wrong software.. firefox 3? flash 9? wine? vbox?

so FreeBSD is compatible with software that nobody uses and isn't compatible with something like firefox 3! well then please support my realtek 8187 device because almost no one uses it!



			
				wonslung said:
			
		

> My point is this:  Freebsd can run all the freebsd stuff + much fo the linux binaries.  You won't find the same level of support for SOME software because it's simply not as hot of a development hotbed as linux is.  Stability and security come at a cost.


i am not saying FreeBSD is evil lol after all it was me who downloaded it and decided to use it on my desktop pc




			
				wonslung said:
			
		

> If you want hardware compatibility, then you can pick windows, if you want to use a *nix system that supports the most software, you can probably go with Debian.  If you want *nix that supports 16 cpu's go with open solaris, see what i'm saying? each os has it's stregnths and weaknesses
> you can't come in saying "i want to run freebsd but i expect it to use everything i already have AND run all the software i ALREADY run"
> 
> You need to set more realistic goals.


who doesn't want hardware compatibility?? is it convenient to spend my hard earned money to buy a device that does the exact same job that my current device does?

windows supports most hardware, it runs most software, but it becomes very slow after a very few software installations, it has real security issues, running an antivirus/anti-adware makes the pc even slower, besides they don't protect from anything lol

it is my #1 choice for gaming though

linux supports less hardware, but it is now good enough for me because it supports my hardware, it didn't when i first tried it years ago

linux and bsd have very good software alternatives to windows which are sometimes better and sometimes much better "compiz"
also some software that run on windows are way better than the linux/bsd alternatives, but that is when VBox comes in..

i am being realistic, it is not like black or white..

my goal is:

i wanna run a stable/secure OS that supports MY hardware, runs most of the software i usually run or has similar alternatives..

windows:
hardware = yes
software = yes
security = no
package installation: you can install anything and cry later for breaking the OS

therefore it is of no use unless i wanna play a game

linux:
hardware = yes
software = yes [wine for photoshop CS4 and VBox for any other thing that must require windows ]
security = yes
package installation: dependency hell

currently i think it is the best choice

freebsd:
hardware = no "nvidia and wifi usb"
software = yes "providing wine and VBox are as good as in linux"
security = yes
package installation: hopefully better than linux




			
				wonslung said:
			
		

> If you want to run freebsd, then you need to come in with the attitude that you will LEARN freebsd and find analogs for what you're used to.  Don't expect it to run like windows, don't expect it to run like linux, don't expect it to run like solaris.
> 
> Expect it to run like FreeBSD


i found analogs for what i am used to when i first moved from windows to linux, i am willing to learn, but what is there to learn if my hardware isn't supported? or i can't browse a web page and see flash files? or i am forced to use gimp?



			
				wonslung said:
			
		

> freebsd supports almost every normal ethernet card. Though, i prefer to switch mine out with Intel cards because they are soooooo much better than the realtek and marvel cards that come with most motherboards



well see how popular the wifi usb device is:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/#hl=en&q=realtek+8187

i would call this a normal piece of hardware too lol

the link i provided above for pcbsd forum proves this device has been there for about 3 years, yet it is not supported by bsd


----------



## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

i'm sorry but freebsd runs firefox 3 just fine.
I'm using it right now on my laptop.

You want to have your cake and eat it to.  It doesn't work like that in the real world.

Windows XP can be made to run decently well if you know what you're doing and don't load it full of garbage.  I hate windows but it doesn't change the fact that XP isn't a TERRIBLE os these days.

IF you want to complain about hardware compatibility you can start with the manufacturers.  The simple fact is most of them only support windows and have only recently added linux support, and even still most don't support linux.  The only reason most of the other drivers/modules exist is through the hard work of people who USE the system and take thier own time to add it.  Volunteer work, so it works like this:

If you want to run freebsd because it is superior you need to PICK HARDWARE THAT WORKS ON IT
I don't know how many times someone needs to say it before you understand.  It's just a simple fact. I'm not trying to be mean, but maybe it's just not for you...you need to make a list of what's most important to you and decide what you can live with and what you can't.

that realtek card is about 10-20 bucks, it's dirt cheap for the same price or less you can find one that works on freebsd.
I don't know how else to put it.

I'm using FIREFOX3
I'm using FLASH
and
i'm on freebsd 7.2 amd 64
it's PERFECTLY POSSIBLE
i gave you the link on how to do that.

The fact of the matter is it IS NOT a piece of highly supported software in most systems.

The entire usb code base wasn't supported for a long time.  Its getting better every day but you're just going to have to bite the bullet OR WAIT TILL IT IS SUPPORTED

atheros is a better choice for freebsd
works on all my freebsd machines
Atheros for wifi, intel for nics, that's the way i roll baby


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

it is ok if you like windows, i don't lol

i know the manufacturers are to blame, but you gotta admit the linux guys are one step ahead.

i am not sure FreeBSD is superior, i haven't used it much to judge it, i wanna use it, that is why i am here 

ok whenever i have extra money i will think about buying a new wifi usb, there is no point in arguing, obiously that won't make FreeBSD magically support the device.

it is good to know that you are running FF3 and "hopefully flash 9", firefox 2 is the one i found on the 7.2 DVD

i think i will wait till it is  supported, this was me finally installing FreeBSD, i have waited for months to have some free time to do that, unfortunately i don't think it is ready for my desktop pc, if it was it would support my hardware and the amd64 would support software like wine, wine is not evil too, it can be installed on i386.


----------



## SirDice (Jun 19, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> it is good to know that you are running FF3 and "hopefully flash 9", firefox 2 is the one i found on the 7.2 DVD



FF3 works fine, Flash 9 works fine.

www/firefox
www/linux-flashplugin9
If you want native freebsd flash support, go nag Adobe.



> unfortunately i don't think it is ready for my desktop pc, if it was it would support my hardware


I've been using FreeBSD as a desktop and as a server for more then a decade. I buy hardware I know is supported.


----------



## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> it is ok if you like windows, i don't lol
> 
> i know the manufacturers are to blame, but you gotta admit the linux guys are one step ahead.
> 
> ...



one of the best thing about freebsd is the ports tree.

firefox3 is there.
if you had read my post you'd know i do not like windows.
yes, flash 9. and flash 10 will also work.

it depends on what your goal is as to whether or not freebsd is superior.

For stability and security, it's amazing.  For jails, it's every better.
For desktop software, it's doable, though i do not see desktop use as a top priority for freebsd.  It works well for me, much better than linux.


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

thanks guys, it was a good experiment that i needed to do..

i hope i wasn't annoying and i hope no one suffered a stroke lol

i will wait for the amd64 nvidia driver and for a driver for my usb wifi, hopefully that will be in August with the release of 8.0, right? there is no need to hurry then 

*some questions regarding software* "providing i move the pc to the other room to test them "

i use cairo-dock, does it work in FreeBSD?

what is equivalent to gentoo's x11-plugins/purple-plugin_pack? it is a package for various pidgin plugins

where is the package for murmur server? i can only find mumble client

where is virtualbox-guest-additions?

where is IcePHP?

does ventrilo-server work in FreeBSD amd64?

is there a way to run teamspeak_server on FreeBSD amd64?


----------



## DrJ (Jun 19, 2009)

> i don't think it is ready for my desktop pc, if it was it would support my hardware and the amd64 would support software like wine, wine is not evil too, it can be installed on i386.



Right now a FreeBSD desktop works better in the 32-bit version.  There are a lot of important changes coming in 8-RELEASE (now -CURRENT), particularly for the 64-bit area.  It is nearing release, so it is more stable than it often is.

And you still have it backwards.  You cannot choose any hardware and expect FreeBSD to support it.  I've never had any issues with hardware support, but I check the hardware notes first.

FreeBSD supports most of what Linux does (hardware and software) but its development model is different, it has far fewer developers and far less money.  Linux also has the active support of a number of major commercial vendors.  FreeBSD doesn't.  In spite of that (or, in some cases *becasue* of it) the system is cleaner, more stable and more responsive than Linux in my experience.

For ports availability, see the main FreeBSD web site and select ports.  It a port is available, you will find it there.  If you don't it does not exist.  Sometimes doing the port yourself is not that hard.  I've ported the troff preprocessor "chem", the old Unix "learn" program, and the electronic lab notebook "ELN" (from PNNL) to FreeBSD myself.  Those are not in the ports tree.

The VBox guest additions need to be moved to its proper location.  I don't remember the details at the moment, but this was discussed on the -emulation mailing list.  Have a look there.  You can get to the lists from the main FreeBSD page.


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 19, 2009)

DrJ said:
			
		

> Right now a FreeBSD desktop works better in the 32-bit version.  There are a lot of important changes coming in 8-RELEASE (now -CURRENT), particularly for the 64-bit area.  It is nearing release, so it is more stable than it often is.


i downloaded it to give it a try, i won't use it as my main OS as adviced, i will be looking forward for its official release 



			
				DrJ said:
			
		

> And you still have it backwards.  You cannot choose any hardware and expect FreeBSD to support it.  I've never had any issues with hardware support, but I check the hardware notes first.


i didn't have FreeBSD in mind when i purchased my hardware, it is a popular device where i am and i thought every OS will support it, on the other hand FreeBSD should put desktop users in its mind 



			
				DrJ said:
			
		

> FreeBSD supports most of what Linux does (hardware and software) but its development model is different, it has far fewer developers and far less money.  Linux also has the active support of a number of major commercial vendors.  FreeBSD doesn't.  In spite of that (or, in some cases *becasue* of it) the system is cleaner, more stable and more responsive than Linux in my experience.


i played with it for a while in the past hours after connecting it to the internet using a wire, i am starting to feel it is really more stable than linux 
i am not sure if i can get compiz to work in amd64 without the nvidia driver, i didn't try enough, i will wait for the driver..



			
				DrJ said:
			
		

> For ports availability, see the main FreeBSD web site and select ports.  It a port is available, you will find it there.  If you don't it does not exist.  Sometimes doing the port yourself is not that hard.  I've ported the troff preprocessor "chem", the old Unix "learn" program, and the electronic lab notebook "ELN" (from PNNL) to FreeBSD myself.  Those are not in the ports tree.



regarding cairo-dock:
there are some ports that have the word "cairo", maybe cairo-dock is one of them? maybe someone tried installing it from its source? that is why i asked.

i found icephp, it is called php5-ice in freebsd

there are many ports for pidgin, it is strange that purple-plugin_pack "collection of plugins" isn't in the ports.

it is weird that i can't find murmur but can find mumble, murmur is a server and mumble is a voip client that connects to murmur

regarding ventrilo-server:
http://www.freshports.org/audio/ventrilo-server/

```
put ventrilo_srv-3.0.3-FreeBSD-[B]i386[/B].tar.gz into /usr/ports/distfiles
```
does that mean it doesn't work for amd64?



			
				DrJ said:
			
		

> The VBox guest additions need to be moved to its proper location.  I don't remember the details at the moment, but this was discussed on the -emulation mailing list.  Have a look there.  You can get to the lists from the main FreeBSD page.


thanks, i will take a look  i hope it will be ported soon too


----------



## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

man, you just don't get it.
usb devices in general are often the LAST to be supported.  Even in linux, those drivers just didn't exist right away.  Freebsd has EXCELENT hardware support, you want to cry about support, try running solaris...which is an amazing os in it's own right but has even LESS hardware support.

Maybe you didn't think about freebsd when you bought your hardware but you're talking about a 10 dollar piece of equiptment, if you can't spend 10-20 bucks on a proper wifi card for an otherwise FREE os then you should stick with windows.


----------



## DrJ (Jun 19, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> it is a popular device where i am and i thought every OS will support it, on the other hand FreeBSD should put desktop users in its mind


Hey, my WinModem is a popular device.  Why is it not supported in Linux?

FreeBSD development primarily supports the server marketplace.  There are many who do use it as a desktop, but it really is not oriented that way.  It takes a lot of work to set up and maintain.  We think it is worth it.  PC-BSD is a packaging of FreeBSD that is desktop-oriented.  You may want to give that a try.

There is one "gotcha" for i386 and the nVidia driver that you should be aware of.  If you are using more than 3GB memory, you have to select the proper option in your BIOS to prevent memory mapping into the top GB of memory.  You may also be able to set a device hint ("machdep.disable_mtrrs=1" to /boot/loader.conf).


> ventrilo-server:
> http://www.freshports.org/audio/ventrilo-server/
> 
> ```
> ...


You can run i386 under amd64.  I'll leave it to others to describe how to do this.


> i hope it [GuestAdditions] will be ported soon too


It is ported; it just does not install in the proper directory.


----------



## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

Like i said, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it to.


----------



## Oko (Jun 19, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> the amd64 would support software like wine, wine is not evil too, it can be installed on i386.



I do want to comment on couple valid/invalid technical issues that has been raised. 

You keep talking about amd64. I happen to be OpenBSD user which 
has full 64 bit support. As a matter of fact OpenBSD was one of 
original platforms on which amd64 has been tested and OpenBSD had the access to product before it was originally released.
I personally have run amd64 on two desktops and I switch them back to i386 due to the well-known penalization in performance. 
Unless your applications are fully written for 64 bit mode you will be actually penalized by using amd64. Most applications are
not written for 64 bit mode. That is just a fact of the life

You point about Wine shows lack of any technical knowledge. Wine is 32 bit translation layer (a program loader) capable of running Windows applications. A 32 bit not 64 bit!!!
The proper way of installing Wine on AMD64 would be in 32 bit chroot (sandbox) environment. Everything else is a cheap PR hack. FreeBSD nor any other BSD to my knowledge at this point have working implementation of 32 bit chroot on amd64. Wine is very dangerous since it does require option USER_LDT in kernel which is very serious security risk. No sane operating system targeting server market will ship with that option in Generic kernel. 


Issue of flashplugin has been discussed to death before. I will repeat the fact. Flash is proprietary technology developed originally by Micromadia which is acquired by Adobe. Unless the
owner of the software has monetary incentive to port Flash to new architecture the port will not happen. If you want native 
Flash on FreeBSD be ready to pay for it. Solaris version of Flash has been fully paid by SUN. Linux version was paid by Linux corporate sponsors. I honestly by any stretch of imagination can not see how that makes Linux better operating system than BSDs even that might be true based on technical merits.

Firefox? What Firefox. This is my version.


```
$ pkg_info mozilla-firefox
Information for inst:mozilla-firefox-3.0.11
```

I actually had it installed on OpenBSD 4.5 stable tree days before official binary releases for Windows, OS X, and Linux
since source code was available earlier.  

What else? FreeBSD doesn't run your favorite video game? So what?


----------



## wonslung (Jun 19, 2009)

yah, it really is crazy how many people try a *nix system and think that because it can't have all the pros people talk about AND do everything windows does at the same time, that it's seriously flawed.

There is no such thing as a perfect os for everything.

All have stregnths and weaknesses.  Another thing to understand about freebsd, and this is coming from a newb to freebsd, is this:

Freebsd is primarily maintained/writen by people who are power users.  It shows in most of the logical set up for the system.  Personally its one of the things i love about the system.  I used linux for 2-3 years before switching to Freebsd and i've honestly learned more in the first 2 weeks of using freebsd than i did in the first 2 years of linux.  Linux seems to take extra care to make things "user friendly" but more and more it becomes apparently that "user friendly" doesn't REALLY mean user friendly.

An example of this is that people consider a GUI file manager to be "user friendly" but using cpio or piped tar commands to move files is much much more "user friendly" to me because it gets the job done quicker.

every day i use freebsd i learn something new...can you say the same thing about windows or even mac osx?


----------



## DutchDaemon (Jun 20, 2009)

(the resulting 32-bit vs 64-bit discussion has been split off and moved to http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=4916)


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 20, 2009)

wonslung said:
			
		

> man, you just don't get it.
> usb devices in general are often the LAST to be supported.  Even in linux, those drivers just didn't exist right away.  Freebsd has EXCELENT hardware support, you want to cry about support, try running solaris...which is an amazing os in it's own right but has even LESS hardware support.
> 
> Maybe you didn't think about freebsd when you bought your hardware but you're talking about a 10 dollar piece of equiptment, if you can't spend 10-20 bucks on a proper wifi card for an otherwise FREE os then you should stick with windows.


*i DO get it*
how would that post of yours be of any help to me??
no, FreeBSD does NOT have excellent hardware support, excellent means it would have supported my usb wifi device.
you already told me about buying a new wifi card, i WON'T.

if you really wanna help then help me make this device work, otherwise you are just defending FreeBSD, meanwhile i am not attacking it, i am trying to learn about it and use it.




			
				wonslung said:
			
		

> Like i said, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it to.


you should get something to eat, you sound hungry 




			
				wonslung said:
			
		

> yah, it really is crazy how many people try a *nix system and think that because it can't have all the pros people talk about AND do everything windows does at the same time, that it's seriously flawed.


again a useless post, i hope you are not referring to me because i don't run windows.



			
				wonslung said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as a perfect os for everything.


you already said that.



			
				wonslung said:
			
		

> All have stregnths and weaknesses.  Another thing to understand about freebsd, and this is coming from a newb to freebsd, is this:
> 
> Freebsd is primarily maintained/writen by people who are power users.  It shows in most of the logical set up for the system.  Personally its one of the things i love about the system.  I used linux for 2-3 years before switching to Freebsd and i've honestly learned more in the first 2 weeks of using freebsd than i did in the first 2 years of linux.  Linux seems to take extra care to make things "user friendly" but more and more it becomes apparently that "user friendly" doesn't REALLY mean user friendly.
> 
> ...


good, i learned a lot from using linux and i am willing to learn more from using FreeBSD.





			
				DrJ said:
			
		

> Hey, my WinModem is a popular device.  Why is it not supported in Linux?


linux guys aren't paying me to say that linux is better or something lol  linux supports my usb wifi device and i just hope it will be supported on FreeBSD as well 




			
				DrJ said:
			
		

> FreeBSD development primarily supports the server marketplace.  There are many who do use it as a desktop, but it really is not oriented that way.  It takes a lot of work to set up and maintain.  We think it is worth it.  PC-BSD is a packaging of FreeBSD that is desktop-oriented.  You may want to give that a try.


i gave PC-BSD a try before i trying FreeBSD, quite frankly it was buggy, i didn't like the PBI idea, also downloaded PBIs didn't work, i hope it will be better in the future..

i do like however the kind of stability FreeBSD offers, that is why i gave the real thing a try..




			
				DrJ said:
			
		

> There is one "gotcha" for i386 and the nVidia driver that you should be aware of.  If you are using more than 3GB memory, you have to select the proper option in your BIOS to prevent memory mapping into the top GB of memory.  You may also be able to set a device hint ("machdep.disable_mtrrs=1" to /boot/loader.conf).
> 
> You can run i386 under amd64.  I'll leave it to others to describe how to do this.
> 
> It is ported; it just does not install in the proper directory.



thanks, good info 





			
				Oko said:
			
		

> You point about Wine shows lack of any technical knowledge. Wine is 32 bit translation layer (a program loader) capable of running Windows applications. A 32 bit not 64 bit!!!


well someone with more technical knowledge can call you technically ignorant.
i understand that:
	
	



```
Wine is 32 bit translation layer (a program loader)
```
what i meant was that it can be run on amd64 linux versions.



			
				Oko said:
			
		

> The proper way of installing Wine on AMD64 would be in 32 bit chroot (sandbox) environment. Everything else is a cheap PR hack. FreeBSD nor any other BSD to my knowledge at this point have working implementation of 32 bit chroot on amd64. Wine is very dangerous since it does require option USER_LDT in kernel which is very serious security risk. No sane operating system targeting server market will ship with that option in Generic kernel.


now that was helpful, better than accusing each other of being ignorant.



			
				Oko said:
			
		

> Issue of flashplugin has been discussed to death before. I will repeat the fact. Flash is proprietary technology developed originally by Micromadia which is acquired by Adobe. Unless the
> owner of the software has monetary incentive to port Flash to new architecture the port will not happen. If you want native
> Flash on FreeBSD be ready to pay for it. Solaris version of Flash has been fully paid by SUN. Linux version was paid by Linux corporate sponsors. I honestly by any stretch of imagination can not see how that makes Linux better operating system than BSDs even that might be true based on technical merits.


thanks for the info, luckily it was good to know that there is a way to view flash in FreeBSD.



			
				Oko said:
			
		

> Firefox? What Firefox. This is my version.
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


i already know that firefox 3 is ported, why isn't it in the DVD? i don't even wanna know.



			
				Oko said:
			
		

> What else? FreeBSD doesn't run your favorite video game? So what?


who said anything about video games??


----------



## vivek (Jun 20, 2009)

> usb devices in general are often the LAST to be supported. Even in linux, those drivers just didn't exist right away


What you talking about? Linux was one the first to have USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 (newer) support. Even windows don't have USB 3.0 support. However, you are right about all those cheap usb devices, drivers may be issue.


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 20, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_wireless_drivers

Realtek RTL8187L/ RTL8187B 	Integrated to 8.x

does that mean that i can use my wifi usb with FreeBSD 8.0?
my device is RTL8187, not RTL8187L or RTL8187B


----------



## Oko (Jun 20, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> *i DO get it*
> i already know that firefox 3 is ported, why isn't it in the DVD? i don't even wanna know.



Why, my 14 month old daughter can give you answer to that question.
FreeBSD was released 1st of May and Firefox was released a week ago. FreeBSD DVD release was created in April.

By the way, somebody just pointed out to me that 7.2 and above DOES include implementation of 32 bit Jails on amd64. The same is true for NetBSD 5.0.


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 20, 2009)

firefox 3 was released in 2008 :\
http://www.spreadfirefox.com/en-US/worldrecord/


```
By the way, somebody just pointed out to me that 7.2 and above DOES include implementation of 32 bit Jails on amd64. The same is true for NetBSD 5.0.
```
sounds very interesting, but i am new to FreeBSD, i don't know how jails work and how i can benefit from them.


----------



## Beastie (Jun 20, 2009)

7.2 CD ISOs contain less than 700 packages. They just provide you with the most useful packages for a quick start -- mainly Xorg and the 2 _most popular_ desktop environments.

If you check the ports page, you can see FreeBSD now has 20299 ports. How many ISOs does this make?


----------



## Oko (Jun 21, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> firefox 3 was released in 2008 :\
> http://www.spreadfirefox.com/en-US/worldrecord/



I was thinking 3.0.11 version. Sorry for miss understanding.


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 21, 2009)

Beastie, i didn't ask for them all to be included, just the latest stable version of the essential packages.


no problem Oko 

i read a little about 32 bit Jails on amd64..
is it practical to run X in a 32 bit jail?
what is the advantage of this over installing FreeBSD i386?


does the urtw driver work with my wifi usb device?
can i install the urtw driver in FreeBSD 7.2?
how can i install it?


----------



## Beastie (Jun 21, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> i didn't ask for them all to be included, just the latest stable version of the essential packages.


...which is exactly what they do, as I said.
Most people use KDE or GNOME, so they are included along with their dependencies. It's more or less all that can fit in 2 CDs or a single DVD.

What is an "essential package" for you might not be so for the majority of users.
You may use KDE or GNOME and find it useful to have them included in the ISO, but I don't see it that way because I don't use either of them.

Also, you may be wondering why FF2 is included and not FF3, but this is totally normal because FF3 is not, well, an essential package since it's just a web browser, while FF2 is a web browser... and a dependency for hundreds of ports (mainly GNOME applications).
See for yourself: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cgi?query=firefox-2&stype=requires&sektion=all


----------



## BeautifulFish (Jun 21, 2009)

Beastie said:
			
		

> What is an "essential package" for you might not be so for the majority of users.


i understand that, but since FF is included in the CD, therefore it is already considered an essential package.



			
				Beastie said:
			
		

> Also, you may be wondering why FF2 is included and not FF3, but this is totally normal because FF3 is not, well, an essential package since it's just a web browser, while FF2 is a web browser... and a dependency for hundreds of ports (mainly GNOME applications).
> See for yourself: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cgi?query=firefox-2&stype=requires&sektion=all


oh, so now i can't remove it without breaking all these packages? 


btw my biggest concern is still wifi usb support, without it i can't use FF2, FF3 or anything requiring the internet lol


----------



## DrJ (Jun 21, 2009)

BeautifulFish said:
			
		

> i understand that, but since FF is included in the CD, therefore it is already considered an essential package.



Firefox2 is used as the base for building the Gnome browser Epiphany.  So it is a required dependence.  FF3 simply is not needed for the minimal package set included on the release CD.


----------

