# Why not FreeBSD



## oliver108 (Oct 17, 2019)

Let me first say that I really appreciate FreeSBD. It is a great project. I am wondering though why major Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon are using Linux instead of FreeBSD. I mean these are very smart and tech-savvy people. Why aren't they choosing FreeBSD although it even has the same major advantages like no license costs and source code availability?


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## Geezer (Oct 18, 2019)

oliver108 said:


> I am wondering though why major Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon are using Linux instead of FreeBSD.



Because penguins are more attractive than beasties.


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## Datapanic (Oct 18, 2019)

Go ask Netflix.


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## 20-100-2fe (Oct 18, 2019)

Major companies do in the OS field what they do in others: they let others sow, water, fertilize, weed, and when harvest time comes, they reap the benefit.

And what is really cool is that the GPL protects major companies by making it harder for small companies to earn money, though the GPL was absolutely not intended for that, of course.

In fact, major companies are happy because they have the choice of using either Linux when the GPL creates an advantage for them, or using FreeBSD when the BSD license is more appropriate.


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## toorski (Oct 18, 2019)

oliver108 said:


> I am wondering though why major Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon are using Linux instead of FreeBSD


If they do use FreeBSD for their in house secret experiments, they would not tell you or me.

But, they offer FreeBSD in their clouds and will  let you play with it for a fee - ea:
https://aws.amazon.com/mp/solutions/freebsd/


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 18, 2019)

In Google's case, either Sergey or Larry stated, in an interview, that they used Linux cause it was what they were used to from using it at school and no other reason.

Didn't Facebook once use FreeBSD at the beginning? I may be mis-remembering.

In any case, people will often use what they are used to or what other people are using and do no investigation on their own. In my case, I was used to using real-time OSes and custom OSes. I learned UNIX from my Silicon Graphics days. When I wanted to start a webdev company, my brother-in-law was a high level project manager at a large Windows shop and gave me a lot of free software. But when Microsoft made changes to .NET that caused us millions of dollars and hundreds of lives, even he suggested we switch to Linux.

I honestly don't recall the reasons I dumped Linux for FreeBSD beyond the unprintable words I used to describe it in my attempt to use it. I just remember grabbing the floppies I had and installing it on an old computer and realizing how easily everything came together and made sense.

iow, despite the pressure I was under at the time, we took the time to do a little research and came up with the perfect solution rather than let ourselves be led around by the nose as most people are today as they let themselves be guided by reddit headlines.


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## Pummelchen (Oct 18, 2019)

Some key apps like Dropbox or VMware Workstation do not run on BSD unless you switch to alternatives. So in my company there was no other choice than to use Linux for Desktops. Also consider that especially Clear Linux is 10-20% faster now, which starts to make a serious impact.


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## Phishfry (Oct 18, 2019)

Pummelchen said:


> Some key apps like Dropbox or VMware Workstation do not run on BSD


I am using Dropbox with 3 different client projects on FreeBSD using my browser sharing LibreCAD drawings.
Not sure what the application does that the website does not but I am currently doing business using it.
I password protect the drawing archive files to have some peace of mind that to snoop Dropbox would have to hack my passwords..


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## Crivens (Oct 18, 2019)

Pummelchen said:


> Also consider that especially Clear Linux is 10-20% faster now, which starts to make a serious impact.


Given the fact that only a few percent of time are spend in kernel, a 20% speed increase there it should be hard to notice.


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## oliver108 (Oct 18, 2019)

If Linux really has some serious technical flaws, don't you think that companies like Google, FB, etc. who are heavily using it, would have noticed and would look for an alternative?


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## Crivens (Oct 18, 2019)

You assume rational thinking there. People have seen flaws in DOS and Windows all the time, but too often it is not the OS that makes the decision but "can it run Crysis.. ahem - Lotus/Word/SAP/Matlab/....?"

As long as it is "good enough" and the better OS is making less benefit than loosing some important tool, well, there you go.


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## rigoletto@ (Oct 18, 2019)

In big/large business fundamental decisions are quite often made by single/couple/small group of people, and quite often technical matters are just part of it (you can invent a justification later).

When there is more than one possible supplier and one supplier have good relations with someone of that group that supplier is the most likely to be choosen, either because they like it more, or because they trust the guy behind it or want to help him, or etc. It is easier to deal when you already know how the person work/think. At the end, personal decisions.

At the same time, when those people are replaced they may just decide to change the supplier to one they like more, in the exactly same way the previous one was choosen...

Most people whom are not used to deal with vastly amount of money would get shocked to see how people driving big/large business deal with money.

- Oh, that will just cost 1-5 millions more? Fine, I almost had a heart attack, I thought that will be a lot of money. lol
- What, 100K? Are you joking? 100K don't pay my car. lol

And most important that is not their money...

*[EDIT]*

And there still have that guy who every year have a pretty large budget to burn and if he/she actually make the things more efficient (and cheaper) the whole budget will not be spent, he/she may see a considerably smaller budget in the next year...

Or companies making a lot of money with support contracts. If they do implement things quite well and efficient the money flowing from support will be skinny...


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## xtremae (Oct 18, 2019)

oliver108 said:


> Why aren't they choosing FreeBSD although it even has the same major advantages like no license costs and source code availability?


Obviously, the above are not really considered to be advantageous. Most companies that have adopted and contribute to Linux don't sell kernels but upstack implementations of services and application stacks. They don't care if the BSD license allows them to close the source because they're not in the business of selling operating systems. Apple still do so it makes sense for them not to use Linux.



oliver108 said:


> I am wondering though why major Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon are using Linux instead of FreeBSD.


Arguably, the GPL has been a big part of its success. Due to the nature of its license, Linux gained critical mass through the enforcement of upstreaming changes which can potentially benefit all downstream consumers. If Google research and implement namespaces (on linux), Amazon can use (linux) them to build containers for AWS. This helps propagate linux deployments. Now compare that to Google implementing namespaces on FreeBSD and keeping the technology to themselves (apple style, no upstreaming). Amazon have no incentive to adopt FreeBSD because there is no practical benefit eventually stifling adoption.

Evidently, this creates a structure that is supported by a collaborative framework that benefits all contributing parties. The level of development gradually improves the state of the project which becomes more appealing to reluctant companies which in turn end up contributing in one way or another. In simpler terms, Linux came up with the recipe for what is called a virtuous and for some, vicious cycle.


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## rigoletto@ (Oct 18, 2019)

xtremae said:


> Amazon can use (linux)



Not really, AWS is investing heavily in formal methods to secure their systems... so Linux cannot even be an option.


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## Crivens (Oct 18, 2019)

The most important skills for sales person are to look good at golf while always being only a tiny bit behind you, placing the two sales events for customers on the Bahamas on different weekends one week apart without looking clumsy and knowing which customer should bring his wife and who shouldn't *wink wink nudge nudge*.

Knowing the actual product comes way later.

FreeBSD lacks these resources (and sales dudes).


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## 20-100-2fe (Oct 18, 2019)

Crivens said:


> You assume rational thinking there.



There are VERY rational choice criteria in purchase decisions:

- Head of IT positions are not that common and when you get one, you don't want to loose it. If you have to choose a technology, you will choose one from Oracle, Google, Microsoft, etc. If it sucks so much that your projects fail, it won't be your fault, you have trusted a Fortune 500 supplier.

- Sometimes, if you did your job right, you would have to bring bad news to the top management. But you know that those who bring bad news are always penalized and you'll be retired in a few years. If you do a bad job, someone else will endure the consequences, not you.

- From the supplier's point of view, doing a good job is not profitable. In a finite world, an infinite growth can only be achieved through destruction/rebuilding cycles and/or creative inefficiency. A well-know example is planed end of service in printers and printer cartridges.


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## ralphbsz (Oct 19, 2019)

Geezer said:


> Because penguins are more attractive than beasties.


Please search the web for "FreeBSD Daemonette". I think the images are safe for work, but depending on your employer, you might want to be a little careful.

EDITed to add: I found some daemonette material on the web that is absolutely NOT safe for work, and explicit pornography. A google image search for "bsd daemonette" is reasonable, but other searches may not be. So please do not look for this if you are easily offended, or if someone else could get upset (like your employer).


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## tingo (Oct 19, 2019)

rigoletto@ said:


> And there still have that guy who every year have a pretty large budget to burn and if he/she actually make the things more efficient (and cheaper) the whole budget will not be spent, he/she may see a considerably smaller budget in the next year...


Ah memories; working for government many years ago, we soon learned to keep a "Christmas wishlist" of everything we asked for during the year but couldn't get (because management wouldn't spend money on it). As the end of the year neared, we would get a request from management saying "we have X millions (or whatever) to spend before the year runs out; what should we buy?" And we would give them the Christmas wishlist and just say "start from the top and buy everything until there is no money left. Please put a line below the last item you managed to buy". Then we would start next year's Christmas wishlist with the items below that line.


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## ShelLuser (Oct 19, 2019)

Another aspect to consider is that it will be a lot easier to find programmers who are familiar with Linux than those for FreeBSD. So if they do come across a hiccup and need that fixed then the solution for that fix would automatically be a lot more accessible to them.

There are dozens of reasons why people would favor one product over the other. Still, instead of discussing it (which seems kinda pointless to me) you might want to ask the source instead.


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 19, 2019)

ShelLuser said:


> Another aspect to consider is that it will be a lot easier to find programmers who are familiar with Linux than those for FreeBSD.


I don't disagree with this but employers, I find, don't seem to understand that a professional can learn things and come up to speed rather quickly.


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## 20-100-2fe (Oct 19, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> I don't disagree with this but employers, I find, don't seem to understand that a professional can learn things and come up to speed rather quickly.



And that knowing one system greatly helps learning the other.

Furthermore, differences affect mostly systems programming, which is not the most prominent area where programmers are needed.


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## D-FENS (Oct 19, 2019)

oliver108 said:


> Let me first say that I really appreciate FreeSBD. It is a great project. I am wondering though why major Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon are using Linux instead of FreeBSD. I mean these are very smart and tech-savvy people. Why aren't they choosing FreeBSD although it even has the same major advantages like no license costs and source code availability?


Every OS has it's stregths and character. I think they use a lot of *BSDs in the router and gateway space.
For virtualization they prefer Linux IMHO because of tools like docker that automate the containerization. FreeBSD still does not have comparably good tools for that. Sure there is iocage, plain jails, cbsd and so on, but nothing comparable to the docker infrastructure.
Also, Linux provides wider hardware support and is more up to date with that.

I myself have chosen to base my cloud on FreeBSD but we had to invest in 1,5 man years of SW development to get us really going with the jails.


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## blackhaz (Oct 19, 2019)

Why my company runs Linux on critical services (CRM, web, e-mail, spam filters, and so on...) and not FreeBSD: 

- People familiar with FreeBSD are much harder to come by, as mentioned above. It feels like for every 50 people familiar with Linux there's one guy with FreeBSD experience.

- Hosting is limited. Harder to find tech support staff if you have problems with your BSD box. On clouds, custom kernels getting in the way. E.g. I've had a FreeBSD box on a cloud hosting I couldn't upgrade because it ran a custom kernel they provided to make it compatible with their hardware. Snapshots weren't working properly. Support was like, "oh, that's because you're running a FreeBSD. It works for everyone else on Linux." Not BSD's fault, of course.

- No reasonable server defaults. I remember we've had to tweak sysctls endlessly to get boxes working properly in some fairly standard environments, e.g. caching and optimizing proxy. Our admins were something along "geez, this stuff just works on Linux! We should wipe it and install Linux." Eventually, as a CTO, I tried to steer the company towards BSD but didn't force it, and let our admins decide what they want. Eventually most of the boxes were switched to Linux.

On the desktop:

- Many key apps not running or requiring lots of time to find a workaround. Someone above mentioned Dropbox works for them. Well, great example. I go to Dropbox's web site, there's Ubuntu and Fedora binaries to download, and the source. There's no FreeBSD. End of story. Nobody is going to waste their working hours trying to fiddle with getting stuff to run. No TeamViewer. ML software is behind. No Tensorflow. No CUDA. So much stuff is Linux-centric these days. I still run Skype in a Chrome browser. (And yes, I can't replace Skype with something else.)

- The Wi-Fi ecosystem is ancient. 802.11ac doesn't work. Is there a nice GUI app to switch networks? (I use WiFi Networks Manager. Damn!)

- Poor reasonable desktop defaults - there was a thread not so long time ago about this. FreeBSD is not geared for any particular use out of the box. You have to make some effort to get it running well. This is great, but doesn't contribute to its popularity. This is not appealing to many people who need to get their stuff done. I am running FreeBSD on my main laptop, but only thanks to that I've had a MacBook and had a year or so playing with it and tweaking it endlessly (with multiple reinstalls) on a second laptop until I said - yes, this is now my primary OS. Most people probably don't have that luxury. 

- Occasional stuff breakage in the repos. I remember something broke X in my case on FreeBSD 9 (or was it 10?) and it wasn't repaired for weeks. Right now I have Scribus segfaulting, no fix. There are many more hands working on Linux, so if something breaks chances it will get fixed sooner are higher.

Please take all this as me simply whining. My lazy ass should learn how to port and help other people, I know. FreeBSD and OpenBSD are the most sane environments I've encountered in computing. I love them and thank all the people working on them. I understand there are people shortages, it's a hobby for most contributors, and nothing is perfect.


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## D-FENS (Oct 19, 2019)

blackhaz said:


> Why my company runs Linux on critical services (CRM, web, e-mail, spam filters, and so on...) and not FreeBSD:
> 
> - People familiar with FreeBSD are much harder to come by, as mentioned above. It feels like for every 50 people familiar with Linux there's one guy with FreeBSD experience.
> 
> ...



I feel you completely. I have been using FreeBSD as my desktop OS for 1,5 years so far. I have still 2 or 3 issues that have not been resolved, most notably - sound crashing sporadically and needing restart.
For the occasional breakages there is a remedy though. You just snapshot your system frequently and if something breaks after an upgrade, roll back, report and wait for a fix.
Also, I use Arch in parallel - stuff breaks there too occasionally. It's natural, so just by using snapshots wisely I have been able to work very well so far.

I think that a FreeBSD box is meant to be tweaked to the max with quite a lot of effort but once you have it working well, snapshot and forget it for 10 years - it's just going to work.


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## hitest (Oct 19, 2019)

oliver108 said:


> Let me first say that I really appreciate FreeSBD. It is a great project. I am wondering though why major Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon are using Linux instead of FreeBSD.



Netflix runs on FreeBSD servers.


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## rigoletto@ (Oct 19, 2019)

oliver108 said:


> Let me first say that I really appreciate FreeSBD. It is a great project. I am wondering though why major Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon are using Linux instead of FreeBSD. I mean these are very smart and tech-savvy people. Why aren't they choosing FreeBSD although it even has the same major advantages like no license costs and source code availability?



See HERE.


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## toorski (Oct 19, 2019)

blackhaz said:


> Please take all this as me simply whining. My lazy ass should learn how to port and help other people, I know. FreeBSD and OpenBSD are the most sane environments I've encountered in computing. I love them and thank all the people working on them. I understand there are people shortages, it's a hobby for most contributors, and nothing is perfect.



Consider your lazy_CTO_ass lucky and thank the Higher Powers for PC grade computers with server operating systems, such as Linux and *BSD. 
You wouldn't wannabe CTO, admin, coder or hacker, during (80's-90's) the stone age of computing hype with UNIX, Unix-like or some other OS implementation on the monster hardware platforms of those days.









						Computerworld
					

For more than 40 years, Computerworld has been the leading source of technology news and information for IT influencers worldwide. Computerworld's award-winning Web site (Computerworld.com), twice-monthly publication, focused conference series and custom research form the hub of the world's...



					books.google.com
				




I and my under_educated_dumb_and_sorry CATIA operator ass had to deal with all  the HOT computer science, back in the olden days.  I even tried to improve my UNIX skills by buying and building expensive 8086 PC kit to learn Xenix. But, the FPOS would not do much or help me  improve my IT skills related to  IBM/AIX or Cray's FORTRAN, that our CATIA workstations were communicate with. Just like some wannabe-hackers of today, we had to cut through the mess and maze of the half-ass hardware and software solutions without having formal, proper or even official training in UNIX systems. But at the end, we've helped design, test and produce Boeing 777,  all in virtual reality, without making expensive  mock up model airplane that would never fly. The 777 went from digital version to the first fully functional and flying airplane version. I wish that my old brain had retained all the knowledge that I gained in those days. Sadly, I  lost most of  it , due to aging and living dangerously.
Now, only  CATIA and FreeBSD on PC  give me some flashbacks  into my most exciting professional life back then when..


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## Deleted member 30996 (Oct 20, 2019)

Daemonette





Geezer said:


> Because penguins are more attractive than beasties.



Let's put this issue to bed right now, figuratively speaking:




There's one of our Daemonettes. Please post a photo of your most attractive Penguin representative to back up your claim. We love penguins:



The ones I saw at the zoo had pooped all over their feet. Not that it's a problem with me if that's something you find attractive in a Penguin hottie. Mods have final say on what's in good taste.


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## Crivens (Oct 20, 2019)

I think we are dangerously close to be witness of how the platipus emerged. If it had horns and daemons had fur. So let's get back on track or become a rectangular object.


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## Barney (Oct 20, 2019)

oliver108 said:


> Let me first say that I really appreciate FreeSBD. It is a great project. I am wondering though why major Internet companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon are using Linux instead of FreeBSD. I mean these are very smart and tech-savvy people. Why aren't they choosing FreeBSD although it even has the same major advantages like no license costs and source code availability?



FreeBSD disciples are somewhat delusional; linux has traditionally been way ahead of FreeBSD in multicore performance and while FreeBSD may be catching up, don't expect companies to just drop what their engineers are experts with to switch because FreeBSD now isnt lagging as far behind.

It's also a lot easier to find linux techs than freebsd techs.

I've used both extensively and prefer FreeBSD as a server due to it's cleaner and more traditional internals. Linux is an abortion internally. But as a desktop linux is way ahead in terms of supporting devices and touchscreen systems.


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## Barney (Oct 20, 2019)

hitest said:


> Netflix runs on FreeBSD servers.


 Netflix is really a specialized appliance that happens to run on FreeBSD.


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## Barney (Oct 20, 2019)

roccobaroccoSC said:


> I feel you completely. I have been using FreeBSD as my desktop OS for 1,5 years so far. I have still 2 or 3 issues that have not been resolved, most notably - sound crashing sporadically and needing restart.
> For the occasional breakages there is a remedy though. You just snapshot your system frequently and if something breaks after an upgrade, roll back, report and wait for a fix.
> Also, I use Arch in parallel - stuff breaks there too occasionally. It's natural, so just by using snapshots wisely I have been able to work very well so far.
> 
> I think that a FreeBSD box is meant to be tweaked to the max with quite a lot of effort but once you have it working well, snapshot and forget it for 10 years - it's just going to work.



I don't really see the point of using freebsd or linux as a desktop. Why torture yourself? Buy a 3 year old iMac for less than your hardware costs and focus on whatever work you're doing.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Oct 20, 2019)

Barney said:


> I don't really see the point of using freebsd or linux as a desktop.



If you have to ask you'll never know.



Barney said:


> Why torture yourself?



Who is torturing themselves? You? I'm having a pretty good time:






Barney said:


> Buy a 3 year old iMac for less than your hardware costs and focus on whatever work you're doing.



Why would I? I'm using a Win7 era Thinkpad W520 with Intel Quad Core i7-2760QM @ 2.40GHz, 8 GB RAM, HITACHI Travelstar 500GB HDD @ 7200 RPM and Nvidia Quadro 1000M with Optimus Technology I paid $200 for. Everything works and I couldn't be happier.



Barney said:


> FreeBSD disciples are somewhat delusional.



Please detail my delusions out for me with brutal honesty and verbosity so I will be aware of them. Embarrassing as I know it's going to be, I don't want to continue living a lie.



Barney said:


> It's also a lot easier to find linux techs than freebsd techs.



That speaks to the caliber of Linux techs as opposed to FreeBSD techs.


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## Barney (Oct 20, 2019)

Trihexagonal said:


> If you have to ask you'll never know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Delusion defined. Spending 100s of hours trying to get a freebsd or linux system to be half as good as a MAC to save a few $100 isn't my idea of a good time. Obviously my time is worth a lot more than yours.

I used to dick around with mythTV. Seemed cool at the time. There are some things you can do that you can't do with a standard DVR. But the amount of time to maintain the stupid thing just made getting rid of it a huge relief.


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## rootbert (Oct 21, 2019)

hitest said:


> Netflix runs on FreeBSD servers.


just on their openconnect appliance, the rest is mostly linux.

to answer the question, my point of view:
*) lack of java support, which is important for most of our clients doing web application and egovernment stuff
*) googles golang states freebsd not as being in the primary tier, which is important for some of our partners for their apps.
*) in general, linux is technically more advanced. go largescale? - use docker and scale up - getting a fully automated highly available infrastructure for many clients is quite easy and not so time-consuming compared to FreeBSD. go embedded/mobile? lots of drivers for all kinds of devices - we are also in the iot and medtech field - no drivers at all for FreeBSD. hosting? linux supports out of the box live migration for years now - a problem for my smaller projects. clusterfilesystems or distributed block device? many options for a long time now in linux land.

From the last point, the docker stuff is probably the most important thing for us. Be it an iot platform or on-premise servers where our software is delivered to, using aws/gcp or docker costs much less than using FreeBSD/Jails ... there is simply no integration in the tools that are used for FreeBSD, unfortunately. In this regard I have the feeling that FreeBSD is falling behind more and more.

the rest of my thinking is very similar to blackhaz, especially concerning desktop. Its sad but FreeBSD has become more of a personal hobby to me with almost no relevance at my work.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Oct 21, 2019)

Barney said:


> Delusion defined. Spending 100s of hours trying to get a freebsd or linux system to be half as good as a MAC to save a few $100 isn't my idea of a good time.



That further speaks to your own overall ineptness as a FreeBSD user.




Barney said:


> I've used FreeBSD in a "company" (and BSDI before) since the mid 90s and I'm always years behind. FreeBSD 5 and 6 literally didn't work (and were slower than 4.7), so we skipped them; what was that, 3 years? You run into MORE PROBLEMS upgrading to "new" software than you do "incompatibilities" with a 2 year old OS.
> 
> Customers want stability. New versions of an OS are unstable by definition. I still host on some FreeBSD 9.1 systems. Nobody is demanding we upgrade Apache 2.2 to 2.4. As long as a fairly late version of PHP runs, nobody cares what version of FreeBSD is running on the system



As does your previous argument.




Barney said:


> Obviously my time is worth a lot more than yours.



I don't know about that...




Barney said:


> I used to dick around with mythTV.



How much are they paying you to "dick around" as Admin for that "company"?


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 21, 2019)

Barney said:


> Netflix is really a specialized appliance that happens to run on FreeBSD.


So are Linux servers. And your point is what?

Given the choice, Netflix decided Linux wasn't good enough for the job and chose FreeBSD.


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 21, 2019)

rootbert said:


> just on their openconnect appliance, the rest is mostly linux.


My view: in a critical, high speed situation, Netflix did not choose Linux but did choose FreeBSD.



rootbert said:


> to answer the question, my point of view:
> *) lack of java support


I don't do Java but afaik, Java is up-to-date on FreeBSD. Isn't it?


rootbert said:


> googles golang states freebsd not as being in the primary tier


But Golang works on FreeBSD. At least it did when I last tried it last year. Does it no longer work?


rootbert said:


> in general, linux is technically more advanced. go largescale? - use docker


Can you think of a larger scale than Netflix video distribution or Whatsapp or internet backbone routers? And when Docker goes out of business, then what?


rootbert said:


> the docker stuff is probably the most important thing for us.


And when Docker goes out of business, then what?


rootbert said:


> FreeBSD has become more of a personal hobby to me with almost no relevance at my work.


Well, FreeBSD is ALL of my work and Linux has no relevance to me. (15 years running a web development company including one or two sites you probably visit on a regular basis.)


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## forquare (Oct 21, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> I don't do Java but afaik, Java is up-to-date on FreeBSD. Isn't it?



Official (Oracle) versions are non-existant on FreeBSD from what I can tell.  There is OpenJDK, but AFAIK it's not truely 100% compatible with the official JRE..



drhowarddrfine said:


> But Golang works on FreeBSD. At least it did when I last tried it last year. Does it no longer work?



It does for all the things I want it to.  But if it's not "primary tier" I can see why someone might not want to rely on that for their income...
That said, I can't find anything about tiered platform support...This page suggests as long as you're running FreeBSD 10.4 or higher, you're golden.


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## jardows (Oct 21, 2019)

Trihexagonal said:


> That further speaks to your own overall ineptness as a FreeBSD user.


I have to go with Trihexagonal here.  Reading his, or Vermaden's excellent FreeBSD Desktop How-To articles really works well for getting a FreeBSD desktop system running.  Though if you simply follow the handbook and do not care about all the customization possible in FreeBSD, it is actually simpler, easier, and faster to get a working FreeBSD desktop system.  It may not be as well tuned or customized, and requires using a Desktop Environment like KDE or XFCE instead of a simple window manager, but it all works well right out of the box when you follow the instructions.  I have found very little that I cannot easily do on FreeBSD that I would want to do on a Linux or Mac machine.  

I have found my situation to be too often, when working with Linux or MacOS, that what should work doesn't, and the documentation or help found usually involves quite complex solutions that may or may not work, usually not.

On FreeBSD I have found that if it is documented to work, it just works.  If it is not documented to work, it may work, it may not, but at least you are not set with the expectation that it will work only to be disappointed when it doesn't.

With the current state of FreeBSD, especially since 11.x, anyone complaining about the difficulty to set up a FreeBSD system either 1. has a very specific use case that outside the mainstream; 2. is trying to make FreeBSD do something it isn't documented to be able to do; 3. Is trying to make FreeBSD work like Windows, MacOS, Linux, etc., instead of FreeBSD; or 4. aren't really trying.


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## shkhln (Oct 21, 2019)

forquare said:


> Official (Oracle) versions are non-existant on FreeBSD from what I can tell.



What's with these memes? OpenJDK is about as "official" as Oracle JDK. Did you mean certified builds?



forquare said:


> There is OpenJDK, but AFAIK it's not truely 100% compatible with the official JRE..



They should be compatible by this point in time. What do you think is missing?


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## SirDice (Oct 21, 2019)

forquare said:


> Official (Oracle) versions are non-existant on FreeBSD from what I can tell.


Red Hat switched to OpenJDK and doesn't support Oracle's JRE/JDK any more either.









						Red Hat JVM/JDK Summary - Red Hat Customer Portal
					

Red Hat JVM/JDK Summary




					access.redhat.com
				











						Oracle Java SE End of Support & Distribution FAQ - Red Hat Customer Portal
					

This article addresses questions about the end of support & distribution by Red Hat for of the Oracle Java SE content previously available to customers.




					access.redhat.com


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## rootbert (Oct 21, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> I don't do Java but afaik, Java is up-to-date on FreeBSD. Isn't it?


Now yes, thanks to glewis. But half a year before it seemed they would really fade out java support ...



drhowarddrfine said:


> But Golang works on FreeBSD. At least it did when I last tried it last year. Does it no longer work?


Sorry mixed that up with rust where FreeBSD was just tier2. However, golang works, but its about 3 times slower compared to Linux in our tests.



drhowarddrfine said:


> Can you think of a larger scale than Netflix video distribution or Whatsapp or internet backbone routers? And when Docker goes out of business, then what?
> 
> And when Docker goes out of business, then what?


Thats not my problem, its something the decision makers have to worry about. Furthermore, the technology exists even without the backing company Docker - so a fork would be very fast online, or otherwise one can at least run the images with another runtime environment that supports the OCI standard. While it is very simple to work with, its also a huge mess. Install an app for a showcase? - just install and run the image which is one command (no setting up jail, installing database, etc)! And people with decision power often play that buzzword bingo so they wanna have docker because they dont know anything else, they want to see the first result an hour later and not wait until I have setup a jail for something ...
Larger companies can afford to implement their own solutions, but being small and scaling big is difficult so docker/aws/whatever is a simpler solution demanding much fewer resources. I would really love to see a FreeBSD container solution for rapid deployments ... a jails spinoff without systemtools/init but with the linux-compat so one can immediately run such containers in a secure environment (I do trust jails much more than docker).



drhowarddrfine said:


> Well, FreeBSD is ALL of my work and Linux has no relevance to me. (15 years running a web development company including one or two sites you probably visit on a regular basis.)


All I can say I really envy you! I have tried hard to find jobs in my area related to BSD, but its hard and I really am not a salesperson. I am probably the most relaxed person anyone of my collegues knows, but when I have to deal with systemd problems I really get aggressions.

I think its kind of a chicken-egg problem - the lack of some modern solutions and corporate support leads to less recognition of the BSDs which then leads to less corporate support...


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## tingo (Oct 22, 2019)

Let's see, installing FreeBSD (I installed FreeBSD 11.3 on one of my machines yesterday; it has space for a few more partitions on drive ada0)
0) write the FreeBSD install image to a usb stick - I used one of my other FreeBSD workstations for this

1) boot the machine from the FreeBSD install usb stick, select "live" and read through the dmesg output just to be sure that all devices I care about are detected correctly (you know, network interfaces and stuff)

2) boot again (yes - I'm lazy) and run the installer - install FreeBSD

3) exit to shell and do any manual modifications if required (I give dhclient parameters so my machines get a semi-static ip address from my dhcp server, also I can set boot flags with gpart, if required)

4) boot into the new FreeBSD install, run freebsd-update(8). Update to the latest patchlevel.

5) bootstrap pkg(8) and install packages for drm. For me it means drm-kmod (the port is graphics/drm-kmod). Configure the drm package by adding the correct kld_list= variable in /etc/rc.conf. I'm not always sure what kind of Radeon graphics I have, so I just tried *kld_list="amdgpu"* first, rebooted - the console didn't change and the I knew it was radonkms, so change to *kld_list="/boot/modules/radeonkms.ko"*, reboot - ok, we got it.

6) next, install Xorg packages you need; I like to test things with startx befoe installing a desktop environment, so I install xclock, xterm, twm, xrandr in addition to xorg-minimal.

7) configure Xorg by creating a file for your keyboard layout, mine is /usr/local/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/keyboard-no.conf and the contents is

```
Section "InputClass"
        Identifier "keyboard defaults"
        MatchIsKeyboard "on"
        Option      "XkbLayout" "no"
EndSection
```

8) run `startx` as your user to test that Xorg works (I also like to run `xrandr` from a terminal window in Xorg, to verify that the resolution is correct

9) install your favorite desktop environment via pkg. Mine is xfce, so `# pkg install xfce`.

10) run `startxfce4` as your user and enjoy your new FreeBSD desktop.

(ok, you probably need to insstall a bunch of programs via pkg first)


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## hitest (Oct 22, 2019)

Barney said:


> Netflix is really a specialized appliance that happens to run on FreeBSD.



Thanks for the clarification.  I thought that Netflix was streamed from servers running FreeBSD.


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## Deleted member 48958 (Oct 23, 2019)

Barney said:


> Delusion defined. Spending 100s of hours trying to get a freebsd or linux system to be half as good as a MAC to save a few $100 isn't my idea of a good time. Obviously my time is worth a lot more than yours.


Obviously you don't know how to use *nix systems at all, overall time that you spending playing around with your housewife OSes, like macos or M$ Windows, will be about 100 times more. Because, for example, my Devuan installation on my laptop will be almost 3 years old soon and FreeBSD installation on my workstation is about 5 years old... And I had absolutely 0 problems with it, I've just installed it, copied my configs and I'm  using it till now and I may use it 10 years more, I just need to easily update it every couple of years . Also I would never replace my FVWM configuration (https://forums.freebsd.org/posts/390111) —

with some shiny, glitchy  and resource intensive crApple crap even if someone will pay me money every day for using this nasty housewife OS. Every time I used some Apple hardware, I've removed that slow, glitchy and annoying thing called macos, also I'm continuing to do it even till now, with installing something reasonable on my friends laptops. Even few ladies, which work for a friend of mine, are using FVWM with my config and Devuan installed on their work laptops and they are very happy with it, because everything work pretty well, fast and stable. Linux is already there, it is possible to use it on desktops pretty efficiently (non systemd distros), while FreeBSD is almost there, because some desktop applications and drivers are still missing, but it is possible to use it on workstations pretty successfully.


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 23, 2019)

hitest said:


> Thanks for the clarification.  I thought that Netflix was streamed from servers running FreeBSD.


It is. The server is just called an appliance.



> Netflix delivers streaming content using a combination of intelligent clients, a central control system, and a network of Open Connect appliances.





> FreeBSD was selected for its balance of stability and features, a strong development community and staff expertise. All code improvements, feature additions, and bug fixes are contributed directly back to the open source community via the FreeBSD committers on our team. We also strive to stay at the front of the FreeBSD development process, allowing us to have a tight feedback loop with other community and partner developers. The result has been a positive open source ecosystem that lowers our development costs and multiplies the effectiveness of our efforts.


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## Crivens (Oct 23, 2019)

Can we cut out the ad-hom stuff, please?


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## weberjn (Oct 23, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> In Google's case, either Sergey or Larry stated, in an interview, that they used Linux cause it was what they were used to from using it at school and no other reason.



Thanks for supporting my argument for porting FreeBSD on students' hobby ports: the Raspberry Pi, especially the Pi 4.


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## mark_j (Oct 23, 2019)

weberjn said:


> Thanks for supporting my argument for porting FreeBSD on students' hobby ports: the Raspberry Pi, especially the Pi 4.


I was thinking exactly the same thing when we were discussing the RPI4's adoption (or lack thereof) by FreeBSD, weberjn.
We all get it, FreeBSD has limited man (ahem, people)-power, but it's also in danger of being left behind as all those Raspberry Pi using students with Linux installed on them means the greater chance these kids only know Linux in the open source sphere. Next thing they've graduated, move into business and are in position of decision making and guess what they opt to use? Hint: It doesn't contain "BSD" in the name.

I remember back in the day Apple pushed hard in academia to expand their base. It's a proven strategy (although in Apple's case cost was the big prohibiting factor).

I know FreeBSD is pushing into Armv8 territory, and that's good, but an overall strategy to expand people's awareness of FreeBSD should also be a goal. What better way than an official FreeBSD system on Raspberry Pi's own website. I see Windows 10 (cough) and a gaggle of Linux; I don't see FreeBSD.


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## BeastieLabs (Oct 23, 2019)

*Why not freeBSD?* This is a subject with mixed feelings, I have been a Linux user for 12 years and the last 3 years I am also a freeBSD user, if we want to grow we need to invite and attract many people to the project, to fall in love with Beastie and use it! We who use it know its capabilities and limitations, nobody has to come to tell me the failures or virtues that it has compared to other systems generating stupid discussions without benefit, we do not need to compete with other systems we need is for ours to work and work well ! One day I will be a freeBSD maintainer and developer. This is how we should contribute to the project by improving what is and helping it to be a quality system. Welcome to new users, thanks to the usual users and those who come to criticize, thanks for helping us improve! I don't care if netflix or whatsapp stop using freebsd, this is my system, your system, everyone's system, I like it and here I stay using it for as long as I want! that's it. Sorry if I write bad, I don't speak English yet .. Thanks to all the people who make it possible for freebsd to still exist, I hope I can use it forever!


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## neel (Oct 24, 2019)

Well, the issue with FreeBSD on my laptop is that not all hardware is supported. For instance my laptop's AC-9560 Wi-Fi isn't supported, and the Realtek USB dongle I'm using isn't that reliable outside of home (usually Cisco/Aruba APs).

Other than that, there is some software that I may need Wine or the Linuxulator (if it works), even dual-boot into Windows (HPE iLO console if I need it, Toontown Rewritten), or even use a Linux LiveUSB.

However, I also had my share of pains on Linux. Ubuntu had borked updates on a previous laptop that couldn't run FreeBSD (pre-drm-kmod days). Worse, using Docker is complex and confusing, while using iocage (or even jails by hand) is simple and concise, and I'm saying this having six college credits depend on Docker use.


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 24, 2019)

neel said:


> I'm saying this having six college credits depend on Docker use.


And then Docker will go out of business and everyone will be using Kubernetes until you learn that.


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## rigoletto@ (Oct 24, 2019)

neel said:


> Worse, using Docker is complex and confusing, while using iocage (or even jails by hand) is simple and concise, and I'm saying this having six college credits depend on Docker use.





drhowarddrfine said:


> And then Docker will go out of business and everyone will be using Kubernetes until you learn that.



One word, MirageOS.


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## Hakaba (Oct 24, 2019)

For personal use, the answer is obvious :
I did not find a way to install it on my (too recent ?) laptop.
But I will try again...

For server / work, all my personnal project use freebsd for jails.
But in all job, I never see FreeBSD.
For me, docker is a nightmare.

My dream : in my futur job, the person that decide to use a stupid technology instead of the very good one will be me...


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 24, 2019)

rigoletto@ said:


> One word, MirageOS.


Especially nowadays, I no longer care for anything A, that requires B, C, D, E and F to run in order to create G that can be done natively with one line of code on FreeBSD.


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## Crivens (Oct 24, 2019)

It's horses for courses. The more horses you know and can ride, the lower the chance you end up in a race betting the farm on a garden snail. So to speak.


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## hitest (Oct 24, 2019)

neel said:


> Well, the issue with FreeBSD on my laptop is that not all hardware is supported.



I have the same issue.  Sound is not supported on my T410 Thinkpad, so I run OpenBSD 6.6.


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## yuripv (Oct 24, 2019)

hitest said:


> I have the same issue.  Sound is not supported on my T410 Thinkpad, so I run OpenBSD 6.6.


That's weird, I see numerous posts all around suggesting that sound works on T410, or you have some specific use cases?


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## Crivens (Oct 24, 2019)

hitest said:


> I have the same issue.  Sound is not supported on my T410 Thinkpad, so I run OpenBSD 6.6.


Maybe installing oss from ports will help here. I had issues with my old T60's as well.


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 24, 2019)

Crivens said:


> The more horses you know and can ride


Here we call that a "jack of all trades, master of none".


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## shkhln (Oct 24, 2019)

yuripv said:


> That's weird, I see numerous posts all around suggesting that sound works on T410, or you have some specific use cases?



There is a PR 233400 from vermaden describing some Conexant issue (starting with the comment #3, it's not the initial subject), although I don't know which Thinkpad model is involved.


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## Crivens (Oct 24, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Here we call that a "jack of all trades, master of none".


We call it "lower management"


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## Barney (Oct 24, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> So are Linux servers. And your point is what?
> 
> Given the choice, Netflix decided Linux wasn't good enough for the job and chose FreeBSD.



Sorry if you don't know the difference between a server and an appliance.


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## neel (Oct 24, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> And then Docker will go out of business and everyone will be using Kubernetes until you learn that.



Except that my upcoming full-time job in January is in Windows Server/.NET/Exchange land, so I guess I won't be using Kubernetes at all.

Even on my personal systems, Docker never had much appeal to me. I *actually want* to be able to modify the config once I installed software if I have a misconfiguration, not just try to redeploy with the added overhead. I want fine-grained control over my software, not just deploy a "container" packaged by someone else. Heck, I don't even let Let's Encrypt edit my Apache config.

I use Docker because I have to for college. I use FreeBSD and Jails because I want to at home.


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## Barney (Oct 24, 2019)

ILUXA said:


> Obviously you don't know how to use *nix systems at all, overall time that you spending playing around with your housewife OSes, like macos or M$ Windows, will be about 100 times more. Because, for example, my Devuan installation on my laptop will be almost 3 years old soon and FreeBSD installation on my workstation is about 5 years old... And I had absolutely 0 problems with it, I've just installed it, copied my configs and I'm  using it till now and I may use it 10 years more, I just need to easily update it every couple of years . Also I would never replace my FVWM configuration (https://forums.freebsd.org/posts/390111) —
> View attachment 7070
> with some shiny, glitchy  and resource intensive crApple crap even if someone will pay me money every day for using this nasty housewife OS. Every time I used some Apple hardware, I've removed that slow, glitchy and annoying thing called macos, also I'm continuing to do it even till now, with installing something reasonable on my friends laptops. Even few ladies, which work for a friend of mine, are using FVWM with my config and Devuan installed on their work laptops and they are very happy with it, because everything work pretty well, fast and stable. Linux is already there, it is possible to use it on desktops pretty efficiently (non systemd distros), while FreeBSD is almost there, because some desktop applications and drivers are still missing, but it is possible to use it on workstations pretty successfully.



You really sound quite foolish. And I'm guessing you never owned an iMAC. You sound like some guy who's been trapped in a cave since 1992, trying to make the case that washing your clothes on a rock in a stream is superior to using a washing machine. It's really quite amusing.


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## neel (Oct 24, 2019)

Barney said:


> Sorry if you don't know the difference between a server and an appliance.



To clarify, Netflix runs their CDN on FreeBSD but their main backend runs Linux.


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## neel (Oct 24, 2019)

Barney said:


> You really sound quite foolish. And I'm guessing you never owned an iMAC. You sound like some guy who's been trapped in a cave since 1992, trying to make the case that washing your clothes on a rock in a stream is superior to using a washing machine. It's really quite amusing.



I am not a fan of Macs or Apple either, but they're not bad computers.

macOS is a good operating system, it's not like the old pre-Darwin Mac OS which was a piece of c**p. So is the Windows NT family and Linux. But then not everyone will like it. I never really loved Macs or felt the need to buy Apple products.

I came to the Linux/BSD world because Cygwin wasn't real Unix and I struggled with its limitations. Had I been a teenager now, I would still be a Windows user because hey, I have a real Linux shell thanks to WSL and I don't have to worry about formatting my hard drive. But then there's my upcoming job would push me back into Windows-land anyways, possibly making FreeBSD a secondary OS for me.


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 25, 2019)

Barney said:


> Sorry if you don't know the difference between a server and an appliance.


Next thing you'll try and tell me is that I don't know the difference between a server and the cloud.


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## rigoletto@ (Oct 25, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Especially nowadays, I no longer care for anything A, that requires B, C, D, E and F to run in order to create G that can be done natively with one line of code on FreeBSD.



There are too much letters in there. You just need to download the thing, configure or construct the unikernel, compile and run on BHyve. 

*[EDIT]*

Some pre-constructed unikernels.


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## hitest (Oct 25, 2019)

Crivens said:


> Maybe installing oss from ports will help here. I had issues with my old T60's as well.



Thanks for the tip.


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## Deleted member 48958 (Oct 25, 2019)

Barney said:


> You really sound quite foolish. And I'm guessing you never owned an iMAC. You sound like some guy who's been trapped in a cave since 1992


I was born in early nineties , so no traps here, just my clear, deliberate choice, I didn't own imac, I owned macbook pro and I had GNU/Linux installed on it, Apple hardware isn't very bad, some of it is even pretty nice, but their OS is quite crappy, because its target audience are housewifes, that's why guys like you don't even know at all how to use real *nix OSes. So IMO, you, Apple and Windows funboys, are in very big trap, because M$ and crApple corporations may control you fully, while I am not tied to any any kind of corporation and I'm able to use whatever hardware/software I want, also I *can* use it 100% fully functional without no limits and so many years I'll want, because nobody is interested in me buying their toys regularly.


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## mark_j (Oct 25, 2019)

ILUXA said:


> I was born in early nineties , so no traps here, just my clear, deliberate choice, I didn't own imac, I owned macbook pro and I had GNU/Linux installed on it, Apple hardware isn't very bad, some of it is even pretty nice, but their OS is quite crappy, because its target audience are housewifes, that's why guys like you don't even know at all how to use real *nix OSes. So IMO, you, Apple and Windows funboys, are in very big trap, because M$ and crApple corporations may control you fully, while I am not tied to any any kind of corporation and I'm able to use whatever hardware/software I want, also I *can* use it 100% fully functional without no limits and so many years I'll want, because nobody is interested in me buying their toys regularly.



I don't want to play moderator here, but I think this is getting way off track.

Let's not pigeon-hole people based on their usage of an OS? The conversation starts to resemble a Linux-fanboi site where it's "us against the world" sort of mentality.

Use whatever OS you want to, can afford to or have no choice. Of course, that should be FreeBSD but I'm preaching to the converted on this forum, I suspect.


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## Deleted member 48958 (Oct 25, 2019)

mark_j said:


> The conversation starts to resemble a Linux-fanboi site where it's "us against the world" sort of mentality


Apple and MS corporations with their fanboys, even including Google, are not "whole world" thank to God  Also I'm not a "fanboi" of anything, I'm using good open source software, no matter how it is licensed (BSD/GPL) or what group of people wrote it. Even if Apple or MS will produce something really good and really open source, I'll use it without any problems.


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## rootbert (Oct 25, 2019)

neel said:


> ...
> I *actually want* to be able to modify the config once I installed software if I have a misconfiguration, not just try to redeploy with the added overhead. I want fine-grained control over my software, not just deploy a "container" packaged by someone else.
> ...



Please don't misunderstand me here, I don't want to start arguing about jails vs docker, but every technology has its advantages. I am absolutely not a docker fanboy and I think FreeBSD Jails is a much saner and better approach. However, jails needs some nice wrappings for largescale deployments.

Docker was never built to edit config files at hand. The point for using docker is: we deploy large scale, and I am talking about hundred thousands of containers. We do testdriven deployments, so config changes get deployed to testmachines, then testing is done and if OK its deployed. We work in a high security environment, everything needs to be audited - we can track everything relevant from every developer, so a simple typo cannot influence availability of a service. Noone should ever be able to edit our config files on our cloud instances or the servers on premise. Even if we made mistakes in our tests and an erronous version is deployed we can go back to the last working state/version within seconds. Thats a huge advantage of docker ... it has its drawbacks and some features missing, all the version history and API breaking changes are evidence that docker just grew and was not really designed, BUT it does an incredible job at the things it is intended for - large-scale, testdriven, secure, reproducible/auditable deployments.


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 25, 2019)

ILUXA said:


> their OS is quite crappy, because its target audience are housewifes, that's why guys like you don't even know at all how to use real *nix OSes.


macOS is certified UNIX.

And then there's this at CERN:





I once had a much better example photo but you can read about it here



> I also remember huddling around the streaming video anxiously awaiting confirmation of "five sigma", and the discovery of the Higgs Boson. Apart from the announcement itself, one important thing stood out: all the scientists, students and NASA staffers were using MacBooks!
> 
> Glowing white apples overwhelmingly dominated every other type of notebook.


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## Deleted member 48958 (Oct 25, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> macOS is certified UNIX.


IMO there is no difference how people call some things and fact that Apple bought this certification means nothing to me at all, user expirience is much more important. One of chinese Red Hat based Linux distros is also "certified UNIX", but that's doesn't mean it is good operation system at all. IMO, despite some technical features, it's much closer to Windows in terms of user experience, but yes, it's a little bit better than Windows, because it is possible to use some good free software natively.


drhowarddrfine said:


> And then there's this at CERN:
> View attachment 7074


MS Windows is in use by many people too, so it's not surprising.


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## Crivens (Oct 25, 2019)

Ok, last orders. We'll be closing soon.


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