# FreeBSD-based Mac-style hardware / software combinations.



## nickednamed (Jan 26, 2013)

What do you guys think about the following idea?

Consider a Mac style approach where certain devices (servers, notebooks, desktops, tablets, etc) are designed and built specifically to run FreeBSD , guaranteeing a top quality user experience, performance and reliability.

I'm aware that due to the plurality of software options available [20,000+ ports and counting] there would likely have to be a "recommended" or "tested" set of software for each device. I.E tablets tested with KDE plasma, E17, etc; desktops tested with various desktop environments, etc.

Although I think a good hardware / kernel / driver match would be the most important thing.

How many of us have spent a good deal of time and money searching for the _right_ hardware to match our chosen OS because of FreeBSD's compatibility? I for one would happily fork over a few extra pounds, dollars or whatever to get a FreeBSD-specific laptop / home-server / motherboard / tablet, etc, with improved performance, reliability, etc.

It seems to work for Apple.

What do you guys think?


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## blackhaz (Jan 26, 2013)

I'd buy one right away if part of this vendor profits would go to the FreeBSD Foundation.


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## kpedersen (Jan 26, 2013)

Well, you should be able to get a 100% supported server from iXsystems (http://www.ixsystems.com/).

They are very active sponsors of FreeBSD and PC-BSD and I imagine that their hardware is just as tailored to the OS as Apple's is to Mac OS X.

As for the ports, well it will just be like macports, quite unsupported and only the stuff in base is guarenteed support.


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## sossego (Jan 27, 2013)

One would need to guide the user through the installation process.


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## NewGuy (Jan 27, 2013)

As kpedersen pointed out iXsystems does this. They provide both servers and workstations with custom specs which are designed to work specifically with FreeBSD, FreeNAS and PC-BSD. Since iXsystems sponsors several aspects of the FreeBSD/PC-BSD/FreeNAS community as well as publications like FreeBSD Magazine I would think they cover all of suggested features. They used to have a laptop line, but I don't think there was enough demand for BSD laptops to support their efforts.


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## nickednamed (Jan 27, 2013)

I had heard of them before, but I wasn't sure what they did exactly. Thanks for the link. 

They don't seem to be selling any desktop / home market hardware, which seems odd considering the massive effort put into PC-BSD. Any one know someone who does produce that kind of stuff?

And yeah, I guess most of the ports would be listed as unsupported on such a project, as with the Macs, but at least some would have to be listed as officially supported, I imagine. 

After all, OSX does have a window manager, X terminal, etc, in the base system. So at least one of the window managers / desktop environments from the ports collection would have to be officially supported [on desktop / home user based hardware platforms at least]. Which is pretty much what PC-BSD does, I think.

Anyway, thanks for the links. And again, if anyone can find a firm producing home user / desktop / laptop hardware specifically for FreeBSD, I'm all ears!


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## kpedersen (Jan 27, 2013)

nickednamed said:
			
		

> After all, OSX does have a window manager, X terminal, etc, in the base system. So at least one of the window managers / desktop environments from the ports collection would have to be officially supported



No because we have gcc, make and sade in base instead. I find much more use in them.

We just have different stuff in the base of the oprating system. No-one seems to be saying that Mac OS X is lacking because it doesn't come with an MS Paint clone.

Apple's operating system is primarily a consumer desktop operating system. This is obvious by the removal of Xserve from the market. So naturally FreeBSD needs to appeal to both types of usage rather than wasting space and adding complexity / security issues with GUIs etc...


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## nickednamed (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm NOT saying that FreeBSD lacks anything. An I'm NOT saying that FreeBSD should do anything differently, up to and including having an official desktop environment, and indeed beyond. The freedom to choose is the reason I stopped using PC-BSD and started using FreeBSD and not Windows, Mac, etc.

I was just thinking aloud that there appears to be a paradox here: Users love FreeBSD for the freedom and the ports system, but _*if there were*_ a firm producing FreeBSD specific laptops [for example] they* might need to *test and "approve" a particular desktop environment [for example] to guarantee a hassle free desktop experience, which would, as I imagine you would agree, create a problem for those that like to be "free to choose", as well as adding complexity.

No judgemental, normative statement intended, just me thinking aloud, on the internet.


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## kpedersen (Jan 27, 2013)

Ah, I see what you mean. (Just ignore me incorrectly assuming your statements 

Well I guess there is a firm that has done this a while back... Apple 

Usually there is enough room in the consumer market for one proprietary UNIX but if Apple fails (And looking at it's shares, we can only hope!) then perhaps iXSystems or someone else will use FreeBSD as a base and add the required software by default.

I imagine it would do pretty well. If KDE wasn't so crappy, I would love this to be PC-BSD. The license is perfect for it afterall.

But yeah as you mentioned, the paradox would still ensure that us nerds would stick with FreeBSD for our daily dose of freedom, and the typical users would use the new OS (i.e PC-BSD) to achieve their day to day tasks (i.e spreadsheets lol).


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## NewGuy (Jan 27, 2013)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> I imagine it would do pretty well. If KDE wasn't so crappy, I would love this to be PC-BSD. The license is perfect for it afterall.



I don't see what KDE has to do with liking (or not liking) PC-BSD. The PC-BSD project supports GNOME, LXDE & Xfce, each of which can be installed from the default media. There isn't any requirement to install KDE if you don't like it.


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## kpedersen (Jan 27, 2013)

NewGuy said:
			
		

> I don't see what KDE has to do with liking (or not liking) PC-BSD. The PC-BSD project supports GNOME, LXDE & Xfce, each of which can be installed from the default media. There isn't any requirement to install KDE if you don't like it.



I meant as default since if I was going to install my own desktop environment anyway, I am going to just use FreeBSD.


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## nickednamed (Jan 27, 2013)

I really like the hardware Apple uses for its laptops [not the way it looks, but the feel of it], but I'm not really that impressed with the OS, considering the outrageous prices.

I guess I'll have to keep looking for that magic laptop that it designed with FreeBSD base system in mind, even if it comes with a pre-configured, pre-installed OS [PC-BSD, for example].

I actually REALLY like PC-BSD and use some of its programs on my FreeBSD system [PBI manager for huge application with many dependencies, like graphics/gimp or editors/libreoffice, but prefer the FreeBSD do-it-yourself approach.

Anyway, us geeks can reinstall FreeBSD, and everyone is happy!


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## kpedersen (Jan 27, 2013)

nickednamed said:
			
		

> I really like the hardware Apple uses for its laptops [not the way it looks, but the feel of it]



True, they do feel like they have a good build quality, even if the components inside may not be.

I think the closest you can get without buying an actual macbook is an IBM / Lenovo Thinkpad (i.e X61 and Z61t) since they mostly come with a metal roll cage and very good keyboards. Plus these are renowned for being very UNIX friendly (i.e 100% Red Hat certified and the fact that most *BSD devs use them).


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## tzoi516 (Oct 3, 2013)

nickednamed said:
			
		

> I really like the hardware Apple uses for its laptops [not the way it looks, but the feel of it], but I'm not really that impressed with the OS, considering the outrageous prices.
> 
> I guess I'll have to keep looking for that magic laptop that it designed with FreeBSD base system in mind, even if it comes with a pre-configured, pre-installed OS [PC-BSD, for example].
> 
> ...



Not to open an old thread, but I do like Apple's hardware - it's sleek, doesn't look stuck in the 90's, and I like the features Mac OS X has with the trackpad (pinch zoom, 2-finger scroll, etc). What I don't like, which is common with PCs too, is having to upgrade my hardware every couple years. Even though I can tinker with Mac OS X, I don't like the pain in researching solutions to things I want to do. I like PC-BSD, but FreeBSD seems to foster more of the DIY spirit.


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## throAU (Oct 4, 2013)

tzoi516 said:
			
		

> What I don't like, which is common with PCs too, is having to upgrade my hardware every couple years.



Let's not exaggerate here.

I currently have a 2007 spec Mac Mini which is still supported under Snow Leopard. That is 6+ years old now, and to be honest using hardware much older than that is just a roll of the dice with regards to hardware failure.  

Most things > 2008 are supported under Lion.  My 2011 MBP is still pretty much current other than the lack of USB3.

I think the biggest problem with Desktop FreeBSD (and Linux for that matter) is actually trying to figure out whether or not any given hardware will work.

There's no (complete) officially maintained hardware compatability list that I can find?

I even looked for a HCL for PC-BSD, and even it, being a desktop based distribution was pretty vague, out of date, and incomplete (latest motherboards listed are 2-3 years old, no 802.11N cards listed, latest video card listed is about 5 years old, etc.).

If I was to want to go and specifically buy modern hardware to run FreeBSD, it is, at best an educated guess; stick to intel for cpu/chipset/net and nvidia for video, poke around at the source to figure out what SCSI adapter to buy and hope for the best with other stuff.  Unless there's an index somewhere listing every chipset supported by every driver included in the base OS?

Is this something that could somehow be auto-generated (to a single list) from the source code?  At least to the point of "we have DEFINEs for these chips, good luck!"?  Maybe with a vote up/vote down thing for "works" or "doesn't work properly" to record end user feedback?

It isn't actually a problem for me these days as the only instances of FreeBSD I run are under VMWare ESXi, but it would certainly help anyone who wants to run it on a desktop/laptop.

Maybe the time is right for some sort of "FreeBSD Certified" program?  Not sure how to get that off the ground though.

In my experience the biggest issue(s) I've had have been being ahead of the curve on Nvidia video hardware (this situation should get better) and Wireless NIC support.  But no video and no network are two pretty difficult problems to solve unless you have a second machine  (which I do, but many don't).



edit:
Actually, I did find (not the first link on a web search) the HCL here.  No mention of video at all (yes, I know it is X11, but a new user won't know that).


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## zspider (Oct 4, 2013)

nickednamed said:
			
		

> I really like the hardware Apple uses for its laptops [not the way it looks, but the feel of it], but I'm not really that impressed with the OS, considering the outrageous prices.
> 
> I guess I'll have to keep looking for that magic laptop that it designed with FreeBSD base system in mind, even if it comes with a pre-configured, pre-installed OS [PC-BSD, for example].
> 
> ...



Indeed PC-BSD is the turnkey system and FreeBSD is the raw material you shape into whatever you want it to be. I hope it stays that way, but just in case I'm keeping my options open. Hopefully it never comes down to that, because that would be a sad day.



			
				kpedersen said:
			
		

> True, they do feel like they have a good build quality, even if the components inside may not be.
> 
> I think the closest you can get without buying an actual macbook is an IBM / Lenovo Thinkpad (i.e X61 and Z61t) since they mostly come with a metal roll cage and very good keyboards. Plus these are renowned for being very UNIX friendly (i.e 100% Red Hat certified and the fact that most *BSD devs use them).



Yeah, I used to have one of the vaunted Lenovo T61P's, practically everything worked with FreeBSD. It was great, then the screen failed one day.  The keyboard on it was excellent.


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## tzoi516 (Oct 4, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> Maybe the time is right for some sort of "FreeBSD Certified" program?  Not sure how to get that off the ground though.



There is BSD Certification.org, but I'm not sure of their reputation.

I'm at the point now where I don't need to have the latest, just something to run a shell, check email, surf the web, watch movies, listen to music, and manage life (todo lists, office apps, etc). I haven't touched code since the early 90's, but who knows. I have an old Mac Mini that I will eventually take Tiger Server off and put FreeBSD or FreeNAS on. All that being said, I think the Mac-to-FreeBSD demographic is growing. I don't have an idea how many Mac FreeBSD developers there are, but I'm glad there is some support.


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