# Why FreeBSD? Why not Devuan?



## bsdion (Oct 15, 2022)

First of all i have no problem with FreeBSD. Just, why BSD? What is Linux not enough for you? Why not Devuan? What is the difference between Devuan and FreeBSD? Is the code environment different? Completely different things...

I still don't know if I should choose FreeBSD or Devuan.

1. I don't like to play games, but occasionally I play Assetto Corsa and ETS2. Apparently, Steam-Proton support is zero.

2. How is the init system? I'm using Runit from Linux and it's pretty fast. I want to see which init is in FreeBSD. I can also say that I am obsessed with the init system.

3. Can Linux programs be run? Here are all the programs I use:

-i3 gaps
-neovim
-lf file manager
-steam
-bottles/wine
-open/libre office
-obs
-kdenlive
-shotcut
-irfanview
-polybar
-open dicom viewer
-tor browser
-qute browser
-firefox
-gimp

I don't know if their ports or packages are available on FreeBSD.

4. How is the package management? Can I run .deb packages? Are there some kind of package managers like Linux? Is there flatpak support?

5. How is the hardware and driver support? Here are my system specs:

-Ryzen 3600
- GTX 1660ti
-B550 Gigabyte
-Samsung NVMe

Do they have driver support?

6. Is there GPT/UEFI support?

7. If I install 2 operating systems at the same time, how will I manage the other with FreeBSD?

8. Are GNU tools available?

9. Is the learning curve difficult? It's not hard, I want simple. (like Devuan)

10. Is there support for Wayland and XWayland?

*Thanks in advance.


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## DutchDaemon (Oct 15, 2022)

Is there a Handbook?
Is there a FAQ?
Nobody is going to do your homework for you.


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## eternal_noob (Oct 15, 2022)

There is a saying that goes like "You don't choose Linux, Linux chooses you".

This pretty much applies to FreeBSD as well.

Take your time, explore it and you may be chosen.


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## Profighost (Oct 15, 2022)

bsdion said:


> What is the difference between Devuan and FreeBSD?


Devuan is a (no systemd) Linux distribution.
FreeBSD is FreeBSD.

If you already been into some Unix (not unix-_like_) you may feel familiar under FreeBSD directly.
If you don't but already been into Linux, you may find several things under FreeBSD are quite different.

At the end it's all about what you want to do, what you need.



bsdion said:


> I still don't know if I should choose FreeBSD or Devuan.


Nobody can answer you that question except youself.

For your question 1...10 you have to go for yourself.
One shall not have to too much effort to get the answers from the homepage's available documentation.
If this is already too much effort for you than FreeBSD may not be your choice.
(e.g. 3. Those are no 'Linux'-Software. Most are multiplatform software. You may run steam, firefox, libreoffice... also under Windows and MacOS.)

As DutchDeamon put it, FreeBSD is for the ones who do their own homework.

If your primary target is to have as less effort with a system, than FreeBSD may not be your primary choice.
And if your primary target is to run mostly the programs you mentioned under 3. I wonder why you care about the details of the OS anyhow.

FreeBSD is definitively no turnkey-os - anything prefined and automatically setup. 
One needs to dig into it.
If you prefer to have a system true unix-style tailorable to your very needs exactly,
are not afraid of doing effort,
want dig into something that's worth to dig into,
than that would be FreeBSD.

So why not check out both systems?
Anyway, nobody can tell you what you feel good about, except youself.


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## PMc (Oct 15, 2022)

bsdion said:


> First of all i have no problem with FreeBSD. Just, why BSD? What is Linux not enough for you? Why not Devuan? What is the difference between Devuan and FreeBSD? Is the code environment different?


That I ask You now. Is there  a valid and up-to-date sourcetree in that Devuan? Can I go, change something in the source, and reliably within less than a minute (or three minutes for kernel+reboot) can look at how the changed code behaves?


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## meine (Oct 15, 2022)

This is a FreeBSD forum. We chose this Operating System to use, and not any other.

It's like the passer-by that asks the Zen monk why he is raking the garden.
-- "Because I'm raking the garden"

The Handbook, this Forum and all are a wonderful world of good software. Just backup your files and install FreeBSD. You won't regret.

Small disclaimer: you'll have to set up a few things or change configs to make it better. Most things work out of the box though. And don't get scared from a black screen with just a dollar sign when you start ;-)

Nothing is given, but all is provided. The choice is up to you!


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## Eric A. Borisch (Oct 15, 2022)

This may also be of interest: https://www.freebsd.org/releases/13.1R/hardware/ (Some semblance of a hardware compatibility list.)

I will tell you why _I_ choose FreeBSD wherever possible:

Separation of base system (makes the system run) / ports (user requested apps, like gimp or Firefox)
One repository with the entire base system (userland & kernel) makes it very easy to “look at the code” if you ever have questions or are interested in looking at how things actually work. Also makes it easy to hack on; building a modified version for yourself can be done directly from a vanilla install.
ZFS. There’s no going back once you’ve embraced it.
Boot environments (thanks to ZFS and loader integration). Near risk-free updates/upgrades.
I can point to every executable that is running on a fresh install of FreeBSD and know what each one is doing.
Single point of configuration for much of the system (rc.conf)
I prefer PF to iptables.
No systemd.
But if you’re familiar with Devuan, by all means; it’s a fine system, too.

You can check freshports.org to see if the other software you want is available.

That said, I see steam on your list, and I think I would probably lean towards Devuan for steam. Commercial games are some of the things most likely to not work nicely via the Linux compatibility interface. If that’s a major part of your use case, don’t fight the uphill battle and just run a supported Linux.


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## I111JA (Oct 15, 2022)

Both are good operating systems (technically Devuan is not an OS, but a Linux distro).
Both are usable and stable. Most of applications you've listed are available as pre-built packages.
It's possible to install it via `# pkg install package` command in FreeBSD. If you want to build packages
from source — ports tree is available, it's pretty simple to add some of your custom patches to ports too, if required.
Cannot say nothing good about Debian 11, BTW, just for a change tried to use it for some time...
Still pretty unstable in some aspects. Next time, maybe, I'll try systemd, will be in 2033.
Now I choose what to reinstall next, FreeBSD 13 or Devuan 4...


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## rotor (Oct 15, 2022)

bsdion said:


> First of all i have no problem with FreeBSD. Just, why BSD? What is Linux not enough for you? Why not Devuan?



I like BSD (FreeBSD and OpenBSD) better than Linux.  How's that for a short answer?  

Way back when I first looked at Linux and OpenBSD for use as a firewall on my DSL connection, one thing I really liked about OpenBSD (and BSDs) was that OpenBSD is the entire OS, developed and released as one.  Linux/GNU, to me, looked more as a hodge podge cobbled together.

A few years later when I started up a data server on my home network, I tried a Linux release (I forget which one) using the 3Ware RAID adapter.  It was interesting, and not in a good sense of the word.

I noticed that FreeBSD had 3Ware support, so I switched from Linux to FreeBSD, and I never looked back.

Now the data server runs FreeBSD with ZFS, and holds a dozen TB of data.  

It just works.

I do use Linux Mint for my notebook, and it seems to work well in that environment.


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## gotnull (Oct 15, 2022)

This is how I look at it: if you need to ask others to convince you to do something, it probably means that you are not motivated enough. 
Devuan is different than FreeBSD, if one makes you happy then enjoy it, the versus thing is not needed .


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## drhowarddrfine (Oct 16, 2022)

If only there was a website where you could put in questions like these and it would return answers or links to information. Questions like, "Why Devuan? Why not FreeBSD?" And other silly things


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## Jose (Oct 16, 2022)

C'mon guys. Bsdio, posts: 1.



			https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/044/247/297.png


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## Lamia (Oct 16, 2022)

You will achieve all that you mentioned on FreeBSD and much more. Have you got the resources to commit to it? You have everything to gain and nothing to lose on trying!

Devuan stands out among the Debian distros that I have used. A while back, I installed bedrock on it in order to get packages from other distros working on it. It currently serves as our home entertainment media centre. I am almost wiping it out though. Gentoo comes closer to BSD yet it has some overbearing instructions - genkernel, confs etc are not as simplified as BSD's. Void is lacking my choice pkgs. Linux is not Unix, to put simply!


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 16, 2022)

If you want to configure things, like me, there are in fact only two choices, one being gentoo-linux, the second freebsd.
If you like things as they are, i would think about, devuan and void-linux. Both are non-systemd


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## gnath (Oct 16, 2022)

bsdion said:


> I still don't know if I should choose FreeBSD or Devuan.


I would like you to try with FreeBSD. In my country, advice from sages is take sugar to test, no one make you understand about the taste. FBSD is little shy on new AMD and Nvidia hardware. This forum is full of information. Explore the supported hardware related information and handbook. Installation of OS and desktop is easy but need some tweak unlike windows/Linux.


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## jmos (Oct 16, 2022)

bsdion said:


> Just, why BSD? What is Linux not enough for you? Why not Devuan? What is the difference between Devuan and FreeBSD?


FreeBSD separates the OS from the userland software. You've got one OS that not consists of thousand packages you even don't have a clue of if you really need it or not. On FreeBSD you can delete *all* packages and your system still runs. On a deb-based system: What about the package "xxd" f.e. - can you remove it? It removes vim-tiny, too - but is that a problem? Or "sed" - I'm getting a warning and being asked if I really want to remove it, but: I could do that. On FreeBSD the "base system" is from one cast. Solid. Defined. Complete.
FreeBSD is not copyleft. There's much more freedom, less restriction.
And IMO (!) it responses much better when your system runs out of capacities. (Also Kdenlive renders much more faster.)
And your closer to the "original software you're using" - less preconfigured by the package maintainers. There is f.e. no "base FreeBSD background picture" for a window manager, no default desktop theme etc. - instead you'll get it like the programmer made it. So at least at the beginning there's to be more work for you.
And you've got ports along to packages - you're able to get your Firefox f.e. compiled with different options than the maintainer of a package chooses.
But: That topic is boring. You'll find thousand articles on this topic in the net.


bsdion said:


> 1. I don't like to play games, but […]


Chances for games are much better with Linux.


bsdion said:


> 2. How is the init system? I'm using Runit from Linux and it's pretty fast.


With hardware like yours the speed differences of the init systems don't really exist. IMO it only makes a difference if you're using mechanical disks (but if you're using those 10 seconds faster boot time isn't relevant, too).
If you're boot process stops & waits it is afair (!) because of DHCP waiting for the IP; Solvable.


bsdion said:


> I want to see which init is in FreeBSD.


Cool. So you haven't set up FreeBSD so far and you want to know if you should use FreeBSD by reading a forum full of people prefering FreeBSD? Won't work. You've got to test it by yourself.


bsdion said:


> 3. Can Linux programs be run?


Whatever "Linux programs" are; If they are already compiled for running on a Linux kernel: Maybe; But IMO: You even don't want to try that. If they are source code: Most things can be compiled on FreeBSD, too. But not all.


bsdion said:


> Here are all the programs I use: […]  I don't know if their ports or packages are available on FreeBSD.








						FreshPorts -- The Place For Ports - Most recent commits
					

Most recent commits




					www.freshports.org
				





bsdion said:


> 4. How is the package management?


Of course. If you're familiar with "apt-get", "apt-cache" etc.: "pkg" is comparable. (But it doesn't use "recommended" or "suggested" - IMO an advantage. Some say it is not as clever as apt - but they are wrong, apt fails sometimes too on solving special wishes.)


bsdion said:


> Can I run .deb packages?


No. They are specially for a different OS.


bsdion said:


> Is there flatpak support?


There is no need for such crap as there aren't different distributions around; The problem third party package systems on Linux are trying to solve don't exist with FreeBSD: FreeBSD is one defined base system, and not a "maybe we don't have or find XYZ, so we better ship it all". And it has one package repository, so if someone wants to make a third party package it is known that f.e. "tclsh" can be set as an dependency.


bsdion said:


> 5. How is the hardware and driver support?


Not as good as for Linux, but absolutely satisfying. What FreeBSD lacks is a rock solid and easy to use WLan - IMO.


bsdion said:


> -Ryzen 3600
> - GTX 1660ti
> -B550 Gigabyte
> -Samsung NVMe
> ...


That is standard hardware. Much of it doesn't even need a special driver at all. You'll just might want/need the Nvidia driver for a graphical desktop.


bsdion said:


> 6. Is there GPT/UEFI support?


Come on, really no research by yourself? Top of this forum there's a link named "documentation". It contains the handbook. That's your knowledge base. Without it you won't have fun with FreeBSD. Use it. Really.
The handbook is also one difference to Linux: It is elementary. IMO: If you don't like it: Forget FreeBSD.


bsdion said:


> 7. If I install 2 operating systems at the same time, how will I manage the other with FreeBSD?


That's up to your hardware setup (I'm doing this via the UEFIs boot menu), or the chosen boot loader. Or do you mean how to access the other systems data? File system support is limited when it comes to read as well as write. I would recommend a network storage like a NAS / small home server for data exchange as it also provides a clever backup strategy.


bsdion said:


> 8. Are GNU tools available?


If you install them, yes. By default: No (cause they are copyleft - a to restricted license; FreeBSD avoids GPL software).


bsdion said:


> 9. Is the learning curve difficult? It's not hard, I want simple. (like Devuan)


Depends on you. Not every OS fits every person.


bsdion said:


> 10. Is there support for Wayland and XWayland?


Some are using it, but: Not really. One example of developers focused on Linux.


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## bsdion (Oct 16, 2022)

Eric A. Borisch said:


> This may also be of interest: https://www.freebsd.org/releases/13.1R/hardware/ (Some semblance of a hardware compatibility list.)
> 
> I will tell you why _I_ choose FreeBSD wherever possible:
> 
> ...


*Sorry for the somewhat silly title. *I've been using Debian for a while and then Devuan. Anyway, I guess ZFS exists on Linux as well. (ZFS in Linux optimization is just bad.) Also I'm not playing games, it's a virtual ridiculous world. Apart from that, there are all the applications I use in freshports. Probably BSD, but not without trying. Thanks!


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 16, 2022)

Is Gentoo-Linux worth trying ?


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## eternal_noob (Oct 16, 2022)

Everything is worth trying. (Well, almost everything.)


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 16, 2022)

& Sometimes you even have to try some things two times.
First time i tried gentoo, i had a broken system, second time is worked without any problem.
First time i tried freebsd, i used ufs, second time zfs.


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## honeybear (Nov 6, 2022)

bsdion said:


> First of all i have no problem with FreeBSD. Just, why BSD? What is Linux not enough for you? Why not Devuan? What is the difference between Devuan and FreeBSD? Is the code environment different? Completely different things...
> 
> I still don't know if I should choose FreeBSD or Devuan.
> 
> ...



It is much better to use BSD.
The system of BSD is x1000 cleaner than Linux.

FreeBSD is very stable and as it said, ideally suited for servers.
Stable like FreeBSD 

FreeBSD is rock solid. Linux is not.


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## jmos (Nov 6, 2022)

honeybear said:


> FreeBSD is rock solid. Linux is not.


I'm still maintaining two linux servers installed in 2006, the last update was 2010 - rock solid (but the uptime shows only ~1,5 years because the company moved their location; both servers will be powered down the next weeks, as their replacement proved the functionality.)

Both are rock solid.


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## zirias@ (Nov 6, 2022)

honeybear and jmos – with Linux, the burden of delivering a "rock solid" system is on the distribution, while FreeBSD, the project, does this itself. That's the major difference here.

On the thread topic, reposting my own advocacy: https://sekrit.de/webdocs/freebsd/advocacy.html


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## Eric A. Borisch (Nov 6, 2022)

jmos said:


> I'm still maintaining two linux servers installed in 2006, the last update was 2010 - rock solid (but the uptime shows only ~1,5 years because the company moved their location; both servers will be powered down the next weeks, as their replacement proved the functionality.)
> 
> Both are rock solid.



You can certainly make a rock solid Linux system; starting with a “boring” distro like RHEL and its derivatives is a good start. I have plenty of these running for $DAYJOB.

I do like, however, that I can point to every executable running on a base FreeBSD install and know what each one is doing. The separation of packages / ports from base is also nice and clean, and boot environments (with built-in loader support) really takes the cake.


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## ct85711 (Nov 7, 2022)

I will say Gentoo is the closest to running FreeBSD-CURRENT.  That being said, it is recommended you be an advanced user, to consider Gentoo.  That being said, you Gentoo gives you complete flexibility (for good or bad).  From running Gentoo for over 4+ years, it is like herding a bunch of cats.  You get out of the way and you won't get clawed too badly.  Bend pieces too far (again, no restriction); well... you get to patch yourself back up (zfs snapshots would have been really helpful).

Beyond that, FreeBSD is like a bastion you know will be rocking away without a care in the world.  The catches, is being hardware support for new stuff is lacking.  Second; while some linux software works on FreeBSD, others require significant workarounds / straight out won't work.

In the end, both FreeBSD and Linux can be as stable as you want.  The key differences is the philosophy and Linux side is running full steam ahead (for good or bad).


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## Crivens (Nov 7, 2022)

As this is another of the FreeBSD vs Linux threads, which we have ad nauseam already, I'd say its time for a last round. Lets say till the morrow?


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## kpedersen (Nov 7, 2022)

I think the discussion is good but doing it on the FreeBSD forums adds an obviously unacceptable bias.

I recommend people instead create a thread "Devuan vs FreeBSD" on the Microsoft forums and continue it there. Completely unbiased because the "locals" won't prefer one or the other.


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## Whattteva (Nov 7, 2022)

Well, if it was on the main forums, I'd probably say the same thing. But seeing as this is on off-topic, I'd be more charitable.


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## covacat (Nov 7, 2022)

because they say masquerading and we say nat


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## Phishfry (Nov 7, 2022)

Because just like a quality Snap-On ratchet wrench, they include a bulbous end for better grip.
By the people for the people.
Source included.


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## ayleid96 (Nov 7, 2022)

I will take the bait and say following:

FreeBSD has clearly defined goals and follows standards(POSIX&SUS) its great base for literally everything in computing. Linux doesn't, Linux is a mess for users and developers.


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## astyle (Nov 7, 2022)

This forum is aimed at FreeBSD users.  Yeah, there's a fair share of pro-FreeBSD sentiment there, and users will point out why FreeBSD is better than Linux/Devuan in solving certain pain points. But it's probably not the best Internet etiquette manners to push the kind of question that OP is pushing.


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## gpw928 (Nov 8, 2022)

covacat said:


> because they say masquerading and we say nat


On Linux, at least, there's a difference.  Here is an excerpt from my iptables based firewall:
	
	



```
# Masquarading and SNAT are almost the same.  Masquarading is for 
# when your Internet IP address is transient (PPP or DHCP allocated),
# whereas SNAT is for static IPs.  (Kernel connection tracking
# maintains long term memory for SNAT, but not for masquarading.)

if IsPosNZint "$MASQUERADING"
then
    # All internal traffic is masqueraded externally
    if [ -n "$EXT_STATIC_IP" ]
    then
        iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s $INT_NET  \
            -o $EXT_NIC -j SNAT --to-source $EXT_IP
        Say "SNATing internal network"
    else
        iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s $INT_NET \
            -o $EXT_NIC -j MASQUERADE
        Say "Masquerading internal network"
    fi
fi
```


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## PMc (Nov 8, 2022)

I don't think that OP was seen again after opening the threat. So why do we take this upon us?
Indeed I would greatly appreciate if this question could be taken to microsoft (after I dumped them in 1990, I have not heard of them again, so I'm a bit curious).

P.S. anybody remember alt.syntax.tactical?


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## Whattteva (Nov 8, 2022)

bsdion said:


> First of all i have no problem with FreeBSD. Just, why BSD? What is Linux not enough for you? Why not Devuan? What is the difference between Devuan and FreeBSD? Is the code environment different? Completely different things...


I guess I'll attempt to bite this one as I have nothing better to do right now, kinda'....
This question could have a million different answers. I could ask the same thing of you. Why Devuan? Why not Debian? Why not Ubuntu? Why not somewhatevernonamedistro?



bsdion said:


> I still don't know if I should choose FreeBSD or Devuan.


That's the mystery. Quite the dilemma we have here.



bsdion said:


> 1. I don't like to play games, but occasionally I play Assetto Corsa and ETS2. Apparently, Steam-Proton support is zero.


Well, if you don't like to play games, you probably wouldn't play any games. Clearly, you like them at least a little bit. It seems like you may not know yourself as well as you thought you did.



bsdion said:


> 2. How is the init system? I'm using Runit from Linux and it's pretty fast. I want to see which init is in FreeBSD. I can also say that I am obsessed with the init system.


Init system uses ngInit. I don't get the obsession with the init system.... but I'm not going to ask.



bsdion said:


> 3. Can Linux programs be run? Here are all the programs I use:
> 
> -i3 gaps
> -neovim
> ...


I don't use all of those, but I have used a fair bit on that list. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them are in the ports tree.



bsdion said:


> 4. How is the package management? Can I run .deb packages? Are there some kind of package managers like Linux? Is there flatpak support?


pkg is solid. You can probably run a lot of deb packages on the Linux compatibility layer, but it could be a hit or miss.
As for Flatpak, I haven't tried, but probably not. Why would you want to use Flatpak anyway? You mentioned Devuan and "obsession" on Init system... I'm guessing it's not obsession, but rather hate on systemd bandwagon. In which case, you probably should also not like Flatpak as it introduces a lot of bloat and potentially a lot of redundant libraries... kinda' like systemd in a way.



bsdion said:


> 5. How is the hardware and driver support? Here are my system specs:
> 
> -Ryzen 3600
> - GTX 1660ti
> ...


Only potential problems here are probably the GPU and the chipset. I don't have the GPU so can't comment on it, but I do have the chipset. I think the only problematic thing is the bluetooth/WiFi chip.


bsdion said:


> 6. Is there GPT/UEFI support?


Yes.



bsdion said:


> 7. If I install 2 operating systems at the same time, how will I manage the other with FreeBSD?


Probably grub or even just straight UEFI boot.



bsdion said:


> 8. Are GNU tools available?


Yes.



bsdion said:


> 9. Is the learning curve difficult? It's not hard, I want simple. (like Devuan)


There is some learning curve, probably more so than your average Linux, but the handbook should help with most issues.



bsdion said:


> 10. Is there support for Wayland and XWayland?


Yes.


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## drhowarddrfine (Nov 8, 2022)

PMc said:


> I don't think that OP was seen again after opening the threat. So why do we take this upon us?


Almost all such questions are this way. It's why we shouldn't allow them at all--or at least close them if the OP doesn't respond within a few days.
They usually only serve one purpose: to ruffle our feathers so the OP can get their jollies.
Otherwise it's good just to not respond to them at all.


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## quicktrick (Nov 8, 2022)

FreeBSD on ZFS + vm-bhyve + any Linux or other OS as virtual machines (I prefer Void Linux)


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## wolffnx (Nov 8, 2022)

not again....


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## Crivens (Nov 8, 2022)

... aaand that is all for today.


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