# useless system



## tenchu (Jan 28, 2019)

Hi all,

I have tried about 7 times to install bsd on my old 32bit fujitsu-siemens without much luck.

I had followed the instructions given in Absolute Freebsd as much as possible (some options given on screen did not match those shown in chapter 3 of the book), but for some reason the system is unusable. I have tried installing basic software including a browser and have had nothing but error messages i.e. pkg not installed try using ports. Could not use ports (something to do with a mirror site).

I tried checking my network connection with ifconfig -a and couldnt really understand what info it put out. I'm trying to make a usable system out of an old laptop which previously had various linux distributions on it that ran fine but quite slow (booting/loading often took 5mins +). bsd boots in seconds but presents me with a system that can do basically nothing. I've tried searching forums for solutions and read the various sections of the hand book and gotten absolutely nowhere. 

Is there a sensible guide somewhere that I can follow to get a usable system up and running (preferably one that does not require a degree in CS to understand it) before I bin the book and go back to linix?

many thanks from a frustrated newb.


----------



## ralphbsz (Jan 29, 2019)

Slow down.
First step first: The basic install, before GUI and XWindows.  Did that work?  If not, what are the exact error messages?  What does "usable" mean?  Telling us "something with a mirror site" is way too little information.  What version did you install?

Telling us that you don't understand the output of ifconfig doesn't help us debug the problem.  How about this: Using only the basic (core or shell-based) part of FreeBSD, get it up and running, describe your network setup (where you get your connectivity from, what hardware, what IP address range you should be using), and the post the output of ifconfig here.

FreeBSD comes with very good documentation.  Try reading the handbook (easy to find on the web, look for "FreeBSD handbook).  It does not require a CS degree to understand ... I don't have a CS degree.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Jan 29, 2019)

My beginners tutorial is up to date with FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE. You can substitute pkg for ports but will have to read the Handbook for the few commands it will take if you decide to do so. If you've got a 32bit machine more likely than not all your hardware should be supported.

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/...-set-up-a-freebsd-desktop-from-scratch.61659/


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> Slow down.
> First step first: The basic install, before GUI and XWindows.  Did that work?  If not, what are the exact error messages?  What does "usable" mean?  Telling us "something with a mirror site" is way too little information.  What version did you install?
> 
> Telling us that you don't understand the output of ifconfig doesn't help us debug the problem.  How about this: Using only the basic (core or shell-based) part of FreeBSD, get it up and running, describe your network setup (where you get your connectivity from, what hardware, what IP address range you should be using), and the post the output of ifconfig here.
> ...





ralphbsz said:


> Slow down.
> First step first: The basic install, before GUI and XWindows.  Did that work?  If not, what are the exact error messages?  What does "usable" mean?  Telling us "something with a mirror site" is way too little information.  What version did you install?
> 
> Telling us that you don't understand the output of ifconfig doesn't help us debug the problem.  How about this: Using only the basic (core or shell-based) part of FreeBSD, get it up and running, describe your network setup (where you get your connectivity from, what hardware, what IP address range you should be using), and the post the output of ifconfig here.
> ...




Good afternoon,

I have taken photos of the screen to show the error messages I was getting.  I had installed the basic system from scratch last night (no GUI).  I tried "pkg install firefox" and got the first error message before I even hit the enter key.  For the rest I have tried to include what I had typed in to generate each error message but having difficulty getting it all in each photo.  I have attached the photos I took today when trying to replicate what I did last night to generate the error messages.


----------



## SirDice (Jan 29, 2019)

The error you're seeing  is a a syslogd(8) message printed to the console. And is a result of failure to configure DNS settings. As are all your other error messages. They all relate to same thing, a failure to resolve hostnames; which means your DNS settings are absent or incorrect. See resolv.conf(5).

This in itself can be cause of the problem but can also be a result of another problem, no IP connectivity. So check if you're actually online. Make sure TCP/IP is up and running, then verify the DNS settings.


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

SirDice said:


> The error you're seeing  is a a syslogd(8) message printed to the console. And is a result of failure to configure DNS settings. As are all your other error messages. They all relate to same thing, a failure to resolve hostnames; which means your DNS settings are absent or incorrect. See resolv.conf(5).
> 
> This in itself can be cause of the problem but can also be a result of another problem, no IP connectivity. So check if you're actually online. Make sure TCP/IP is up and running, then verify the DNS settings.



Thanks for the reply, however, I don't know the firs thing about TCP/IP or DNS, and therefore have no idea where to even start.  I may be out of my depth with this operating system (I suspected this after writing my first post).  I naively thought using BSD would help with my lack of networking knowledge, which is basic at best (the OSI model is still a mystery to me, I have read it and cannot get my head around the layers/stack thing).  It seems now I may have put the horse before the cart with this one.  I think I may have to format that hard drive and reinstall a variety of linux until my knowledge of networking is on par. 

Thanks for all the help, and hopefully I will be back when my hardware knowledge is up to standard.

Regards,
Nick


----------



## SirDice (Jan 29, 2019)

tenchu said:


> I don't know the firs thing about TCP/IP or DNS, and therefore have no idea where to even start.


TCP/IP is pretty essential knowledge. So yes, at least learn some of the basics. 



tenchu said:


> which is basic at best (the OSI model is still a mystery to me, I have read it and cannot get my head around the layers/stack thing).


Don't worry about that. After 25 years I still don't fully understand it either. Besides that, TCP/IP doesn't follow the OSI model any way. It helps to know the difference between layer 2, 3 and 7 but that's about the only "OSI layers" you'll probably encounter. 



tenchu said:


> I think I may have to format that hard drive and reinstall a variety of linux until my knowledge of networking is on par.


You are likely to run into exactly the same issues.


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

SirDice said:


> TCP/IP is pretty essential knowledge. So yes, at least learn some of the basics.
> 
> 
> Don't worry about that. After 25 years I still don't fully understand it either. Besides that, TCP/IP doesn't follow the OSI model any way. It helps to know the difference between layer 2, 3 and 7 but that's about the only "OSI layers" you'll probably encounter.
> ...



I have used a variety of linux distros over the years with varying levels of success. I tend to find that a particular distro either likes the hardware I've got or it doesn't, in which case I switch to another. In terms of usage I've found that I can have a working desktop i.e. internet usage and office package within a day or two at most, and there are plenty of self help books out there to get you started. With FreeBSD I havr found only one book and it seems aimed at administrators rather than users. It doesnt tell you how to install software until about chapter 15. I have skipped around the pages and looked through the BSD manual but have struggled to see how I can make a usable desktop without knowing A LOT about the system to start with.


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

tenchu said:


> I have used a variety of linux distros over the years with varying levels of success. I tend to find that a particular distro either likes the hardware I've got or it doesn't, in which case I switch to another. In terms of usage I've found that I can have a working desktop i.e. internet usage and office package within a day or two at most, and there are plenty of self help books out there to get you started. With FreeBSD I havr found only one book and it seems aimed at administrators rather than users. It doesnt tell you how to install software until about chapter 15. I have skipped around the pages and looked through the BSD manual but have struggled to see how I can make a usable desktop without knowing A LOT about the system to start with.





SirDice said:


> TCP/IP is pretty essential knowledge. So yes, at least learn some of the basics.
> 
> 
> Don't worry about that. After 25 years I still don't fully understand it either. Besides that, TCP/IP doesn't follow the OSI model any way. It helps to know the difference between layer 2, 3 and 7 but that's about the only "OSI layers" you'll probably encounter.
> ...



It seems as though a new user would need the equivalent of A+ and network+ under their belt before getting started. I chose BSD because it looked like a more interesting way of absorbing the knowledge i.e. learn whilst you're having a go, rather than bore yourself insensible reading a 1000 page book (I'm referring to the comptia books here). What I am trying to say is that if the system worked 80% of the time it would be a massive help as you could actually enjoy getting use out of it whilst having a go at the odd error you come across (as I have done with linux to a certain extent). I wasn't expecting to hit the proverbial brick wall as soon as I installed it.


----------



## tommiie (Jan 29, 2019)

You should really clean your screen before taking pictures of it like that ;-) I experienced the same challenges. Installing FreeBSD results in a "useless" system in that you will have to manually configure your network using config files before you can install a GUI and do something "usefull". The major difference is that I'm a network engineer so I understand TCP/IP while you have challenges with that. Good luck with your learning experience!


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

SirDice said:


> TCP/IP is pretty essential knowledge. So yes, at least learn some of the basics.
> 
> 
> Don't worry about that. After 25 years I still don't fully understand it either. Besides that, TCP/IP doesn't follow the OSI model any way. It helps to know the difference between layer 2, 3 and 7 but that's about the only "OSI layers" you'll probably encounter.
> ...


 
With regards the last sentence, I have had issues but rarely to the point of having a





tommiie said:


> You should really clean your screen before taking pictures of it like that ;-) I experienced the same challenges. Installing FreeBSD results in a "useless" system in that you will have to manually configure your network using config files before you can install a GUI and do something "usefull". The major difference is that I'm a network engineer so I understand TCP/IP while you have challenges with that. Good luck with your learning experience!



Exactly my point. My degree is in maths not CS nor do I have any certs. I was looking at having a go at some but the books are unbelievably boring (I have actually fallen asleep reading them) and the courses are eyewateringly expensive (can be more expensive than a degree to get to a certain level considering some comptia courses are priced in the thousands for a few days tuition). Hence my genius idea of installing a unix based operating system in the hopes of learning by actually having a go. I never expected it to be this difficult. Having to go back to the books to learn networking because I cant get it to do a single thing on my laptop kinda defeats the object of installing it.


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

SirDice said:


> TCP/IP is pretty essential knowledge. So yes, at least learn some of the basics.
> 
> 
> Don't worry about that. After 25 years I still don't fully understand it either. Besides that, TCP/IP doesn't follow the OSI model any way. It helps to know the difference between layer 2, 3 and 7 but that's about the only "OSI layers" you'll probably encounter.
> ...



Apologies I had tried to reply to this last sentence already. I have ran into similar issues with linux but on nowhere near the same scale. Worst case scenario I would have issues with wireless but could use a wired connection to download said drivers or other software. I have used a wired connection from the get go with this opersting system and am still having draas


----------



## malavon (Jan 29, 2019)

Hi,

welcome to the forums and welcome to FreeBSD. Don't worry, it's all not as difficult as it may seem right now.
FreeBSD is a great OS to learn from, since the handbook and man pages are pretty good. But you'll have to put in some extra effort in understanding everything.
I wouldn't go as far as to say you'll need to know the intricate details of TCP/IP and the like, but you'll do better becoming comfortable with command line tools and their output 
Let's just start at the beginning and see if you actually have networking connectivity. Just post the output of ifconfig here inside code tags like this:

```
em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 9000
        options=81249b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,LRO,WOL_MAGIC,VLAN_HWFILTER>
        ether 78:24:af:3b:25:40
        inet 192.168.0.29 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.0.255
        media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT <full-duplex>)
        status: active
        nd6 options=29<PERFORMNUD,IFDISABLED,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
lo0: flags=8049<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 16384
        options=680003<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,LINKSTATE,RXCSUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6>
        inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128
        inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x2
        inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000
        groups: lo
        nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
```

You will have at least the "lo0" adapter, with some luck you also have another one (like em0 in my case, which is an Intel NIC).


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

malavon said:


> Hi,
> 
> welcome to the forums and welcome to FreeBSD. Don't worry, it's all not as difficult as it may seem right now.
> FreeBSD is a great OS to learn from, since the handbook and man pages are pretty good. But you'll have to put in some extra effort in understanding everything.
> ...




Hi,

I have taken a photo as I'm posting via my windows 10 laptop. Please see ifconfigoutput.jpg

I had tried to input my ipv4 and ipv6 on the third or fouth install attempt manually and that didn't really work.  I then just went back to using DHCP and slaac.  The output you see in the photo is after my 8th attempt at reinstalling using DHCP and slaac.

Kind regards


----------



## tommiie (Jan 29, 2019)

Your network configuration looks good. You should be able to ping 8.8.8.8 and probably even "google.com" (or any other IP address and DNS name).


----------



## SirDice (Jan 29, 2019)

Ok, that's good. DHCP apparently gave you an IP address, so far so good. Most of the time your gateway address will be the .1 address, in your case 192.168.0.1. Try pinging that; `ping 192.168.0.1`. Look at the output from `netstat -rn4`. Look for a destination "default", the gateway address is probably that 192.168.0.1 address. If you're able to ping that address you know basic TCP/IP networking works. You can then check name resolving (DNS). Look at /etc/resolv.conf, there should be at least one line containing `nameserver`, that's your DNS server. For most home routers this is probably the same 192.168.0.1 address as your gateway (everything points to your modem/router).


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

SirDice said:


> Ok, that's good. DHCP apparently gave you an IP address, so far so good. Most of the time your gateway address will be the .1 address, in your case 192.168.0.1. Try pinging that; `ping 192.168.0.1`. Look at the output from `netstat -rn4`. Look for a destination "default", the gateway address is probably that 192.168.0.1 address. If you're able to ping that address you know basic TCP/IP networking works. You can then check name resolving (DNS). Look at /etc/resolv.conf, there should be at least one line containing `nameserver`, that's your DNS server. For most home routers this is probably the same 192.168.0.1 address as your gateway (everything points to your modem/router).



Hi,

I had tried to ping 192.168.0.1 and got the following output (see pingoutput.jpg).  I had tried this previously and the same thing happened.  The lines just keep appearing and I have no idea how to stop them.  I ended up doing what I did last time and just powering down the laptop by holding my finger on the power button.  

Just so everyone knows, I have been trying this since just before xmas.  I had previously done what I normally do with linux problems and that is trawl through previous posts to see if anyone else has had a similar issue and trying out what is listed there.  However, this has now gone on for weeks and I am completely at a loss.  I have never posted in a forum (I have always found something that works before asking for help) so this is my first thread ever.  I am only asking for help because I was ready to throw the towel in after nearly 5 weeks of hard slog and getting nowhere.  

Many thanks
Nick


----------



## tommiie (Jan 29, 2019)

That means you get a reply from your default gateway. You can stop the ping program by pressing `Ctrl+C` at the same time. Also try pinging 8.8.8.8 and google.com. That way you know whether or not routing and DNS work. If so, congrats, you have a fully working network connection and you can start installing X and Firefox and...


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

tommiie said:


> That means you get a reply from your default gateway. You can stop the ping program by pressing `Ctrl+C` at the same time. Also try pinging 8.8.8.8 and google.com. That way you know whether or not routing and DNS work. If so, congrats, you have a fully working network connection and you can start installing X and Firefox and...



Hi, 

would that not bring me back to square one?

If it does confirm I have network conection surely I wouldnt have issues with pkg and ports as was suggested at the very start of the thread. :S


----------



## Sevendogsbsd (Jan 29, 2019)

If you can ping 8.8.8.8 and/or google.com, that means you are getting out of your network and reaching the Internet.


----------



## malavon (Jan 29, 2019)

tenchu said:


> would that not bring me back to square one?


Don't worry, we'll get you there. As soon as we know where the issue is, we'll know what to help you with.


----------



## tommiie (Jan 29, 2019)

tenchu said:


> would that not bring me back to square one? If it does confirm I have network conection surely I wouldnt have issues with pkg and ports as was suggested at the very start of the thread. :S


Well, we're trying to identify the issue you're experiencing. We generally do that by eliminating all possibilities until we've fond the culprit. Once we know for sure your network conncetivity is working, we can look at other options. But we must rule out the network first.


----------



## SirDice (Jan 29, 2019)

Pinging IP addresses means you have basic TCP/IP connectivity. If you can ping the gateway you know your machine is correctly connected to the network. If you can ping IP addresses _outside_ your network, 8.8.8.8 for example, you know routing works. These things _must_ work or else there's no point in looking further. 

If you can correctly ping the gateway and beyond you can take a look at DNS settings. Without DNS you cannot resolve a hostname like 'pkg.freebsd.org' to its IP address (think of DNS as a phonebook, you look up a name to find the number to dial).

Troubleshooting means taking one step at a time and verifying that it works. Then move the next step, verify it, etc. Until you get to a step that doesn't work. Just randomly trying and modifying settings is simply not an efficient way to troubleshoot and only results in frustration.


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

SirDice said:


> Pinging IP addresses means you have basic TCP/IP connectivity. If you can ping the gateway you know your machine is correctly connected to the network. If you can ping IP addresses _outside_ your network, 8.8.8.8 for example, you know routing works. These things _must_ work or else there's no point in looking further.
> 
> If you can correctly ping the gateway and beyond you can take a look at DNS settings. Without DNS you cannot resolve a hostname like 'pkg.freebsd.org' to its IP address (think of DNS as a phonebook, you look up a name to find the number to dial).



I can ping 8.8.8.8 but not google.com

When I ping google.com I get:

ping: cannot resolve google.com: Host name lookup failure


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

SirDice said:


> Ok, that's good. DHCP apparently gave you an IP address, so far so good. Most of the time your gateway address will be the .1 address, in your case 192.168.0.1. Try pinging that; `ping 192.168.0.1`. Look at the output from `netstat -rn4`. Look for a destination "default", the gateway address is probably that 192.168.0.1 address. If you're able to ping that address you know basic TCP/IP networking works. You can then check name resolving (DNS). Look at /etc/resolv.conf, there should be at least one line containing `nameserver`, that's your DNS server. For most home routers this is probably the same 192.168.0.1 address as your gateway (everything points to your modem/router).



Also, when I try /etc/resolv.conf 
I get Permission denied


----------



## SirDice (Jan 29, 2019)

The /etc/resolv.conf is a configuration file, not an executable. Use an editor (I suggest using ee(1) as vi(1) will probably be too difficult).
First have a look at its content, this is a small file so you can simply do `cat /etc/resolv.conf`.


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

SirDice said:


> The /etc/resolv.conf is a configuration file, not an executable. Use an editor (I suggest using ee(1) as vi(1) will probably be too difficult).
> First have a look at its content, this is a small file so you can simply do `cat /etc/resolv.conf`.



# Generated by resolvconf
# nameserver 192.168.0.1

nameserver 127.0.0.1
options edns0


----------



## Sevendogsbsd (Jan 29, 2019)

And there it is: your nameserver should be your router/gateway, not localhost. Change the nameserver entry to be the IP address of your gateway, which I believe is 192.168.0.1


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

Sevendogsbsd said:


> And there it is: your nameserver should be your router/gateway, not localhost. Change the nameserver entry to be the IP address of your gateway, which I believe is 192.168.0.1



Hi there,

how do I do that?

Kind regards
Nick


----------



## NapoleonWils0n (Jan 29, 2019)

tenchu said:


> Hi there,
> 
> how do I do that?
> 
> ...


HI Mate

You need to edit the /etc/resolv.conf and comment out nameserver 127.0.0.1 and uncomment nameserver 192.168.0.1

There are lot of text editors to edit the file but i would suggest using nano,
i have never used ee

Beginner guide to using nano


```
sudo pkg install nano
```

Enter you admin password, then press y to install nano

Then you need to edit the /etc/resolv.conf file


```
sudo nano /etc/resolv.conf
```

use the arrow keys and move the cursor one space after # before nameserver 192.168.0.1,
and press the delete key to delete the # character

then use the arrow keys to move down and add the # character before nameserver 192.168.0.1

next we need to save the file by holding the control key and pressing the letter o,
then we close the file by pressing control and the letter x

The file should look like this


```
# Generated by resolvconf
nameserver 192.168.0.1

#nameserver 127.0.0.1
options edns0
```

Finally you need to restart networking to pick up the changes in the resolv.conf file

restart networking


```
sudo service netif restart
```

And you should be all set


----------



## Sevendogsbsd (Jan 29, 2019)

No need to install nano - ee is already on the system but really OP's preference. Ee is just as simple as nano. Same interface.

And just an FYI note: nano is from the Linux world and not native to FreeBSD. Doesn't mean it's bad, but if a user relies on a ported app that isn't in base, then they are stuck if that port is not on the system for whatever reason.


----------



## reddy (Jan 29, 2019)

Especially since the OP doesn't have any internet access that would allow him to install new packages.


```
sudo ee /etc/resolv.conf
```

Will do the trick. Then you can do like @NapoleonWilson suggested with the arrow keys etc... to edit the file.
When you are done editing the file, use the ESCAPE key of your keyboard to show the menu that will allow you to leave the editor while saving your changes.


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

reddy said:


> Especially since the OP doesn't have any internet access that would allow him to install new packages.
> 
> 
> ```
> ...



I managed to do it with ee. I then installed firefox. when i try to open it i get 
unable to init server: could not connect to 127.0.0.1: Connection refused

(firefox:3283): Gtk-WARNING **: 19:17:40.376: cannot open display


----------



## reddy (Jan 29, 2019)

So now you have internet, congratulations!

The next step is to install and configure the X server, it should be quick if your hardware is supported, then once this is done you should have no problem to run firefox. You can see the handbook for detailed instructions:

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x11.html


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

reddy said:


> So now you have internet, congratulations!
> 
> The next step is to install and configure the X server, it should be quick if your hardware is supported, then once this is done you should have no problem to run firefox. You can see the handbook for detailed instructions:
> 
> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x11.html



I have done pkg install xorg and am currently waiting for pkg install gnome3 to finish. It's been going for the last 10 minutes or so. I'm keeping all fingers and toes crossed it does the trick.


----------



## NapoleonWils0n (Jan 29, 2019)

tenchu said:


> I have done pkg install xorg and am currently waiting for pkg install gnome3 to finish. It's been going for the last 10 minutes or so. I'm keeping all fingers and toes crossed it does the trick.


Make sure to follow the steps in the handbook about gnome,
setting up proc in fstab, D-Bus, HAL, GDM in rc.conf, 
and gnome session in xinitrc


----------



## hukadan (Jan 29, 2019)

I think there was nothing "wrong" in the configuration of the system. Given the content of /etc/resolv.conf, it seems that the OP uses local-unbound(8). To verify this, check the presence of the following line in your /etc/rc.conf.

```
local_unbound_enable="YES"
```

If I am right, then my guess is that the DNS servers used by the OP do no use DNSSEC (you can run a test here : https://dnssec.vs.uni-due.de/).  By default, local-unbound.conf(5) comes with the line

```
auto-trust-anchor-file: /var/unbound/root.key
```
If I remember correctly, when this line is present but the DNS is not configured for DNSSEC, it will not resolve adresses. My advice is to put your /etc/resolv.conf back the way it was and comment the line above in /etc/unbound/unbound.conf.

As a side note, if local-unbound(8) is enabled, it will erase the modification you made to /etc/resolv.conf during the next reboot (and you will lose internet again).


----------



## tenchu (Jan 29, 2019)

hukadan said:


> I think there was nothing "wrong" in the configuration of the system. Given the content of /etc/resolv.conf, it seems that the OP uses local-unbound(8). To verify this, check the presence of the following line in your /etc/rc.conf.
> 
> ```
> local_unbound_enable="YES"
> ...



Well gentleman,

it's been 8 and a half hours, multiple smoke breaks, and 5 weeks in total if you include all the time I have tried to do this on my own, but, I now have a fully functional system with gnome desktop and all that comes with it. I just wish I had tried asking here 5 weeks ago instead of struggling to the point of almost throwing the towel in. 

Well gents (and ladies) I cannot express how greatful I am for all the advice today. 

I am now off to go and peruse my new desktop and see what wonderful utilities it comes with.

Many thanks and kind regards,
Nick


----------



## tommiie (Jan 30, 2019)

NapoleonWils0n said:


> ```
> sudo pkg install nano
> ```



Your intentions were good, but this really made me laugh so hard. Talking about a chicken-and-egg problem. You need nano to fix your network issues, but you need network connectivity to install nano.



hukadan said:


> I think there was nothing "wrong" in the configuration of the system. Given the content of /etc/resolv.conf, it seems that the OP uses local-unbound(8). To verify this, check the presence of the following line in your /etc/rc.conf.
> 
> ```
> local_unbound_enable="YES"
> ...



I checked my laptop on which I installed FreeBSD 11.2 a few weeks ago and indeed, I also modified my /etc/resolv.conf to use other name servers so I could browse the Interwebs while I have `local_unbound_enable="YES"` in /etc/rc.conf. However, rebooting my laptop did not reset my  /etc/resolv.conf so I guess I was a bit lucky there. Either way, I will "fix" my setup by commenting the line `auto-trust-anchor-file: /var/unbound/root.key`.


----------



## hukadan (Jan 30, 2019)

tommiie said:


> so I guess I was a bit lucky there


Or, I guess I was wrong. I would have bet (and lost) 100€ on that. May be that was dhclient(8) that modified my /etc/resolv.conf at reboot then. I can't remember. Anyway, thank you for correcting that point.


----------



## SirDice (Jan 30, 2019)

tenchu said:


> it's been 8 and a half hours, multiple smoke breaks, and 5 weeks in total if you include all the time I have tried to do this on my own, but, I now have a fully functional system with gnome desktop and all that comes with it. I just wish I had tried asking here 5 weeks ago instead of struggling to the point of almost throwing the towel in.


At least you learned a lot in that period, so it wasn't entirely useless. Even knowing how _not_ to do things is valuable knowledge. Just take things step by step. Don't try to cut corners, be methodical, and you'll be fine


----------



## malavon (Jan 30, 2019)

I'm glad you persisted. 17 years ago (!) it took me over a week full-time setting up a Firewall/NAT box with FreeBSD but I have never regretted it.
It was my first Unix-like OS I actually used (as opposed to trying out) and it's been my main OS (server and desktop) ever since.


----------



## tommiie (Jan 30, 2019)

tommiie said:


> I checked my laptop on which I installed FreeBSD 11.2 a few weeks ago and indeed, I also modified my /etc/resolv.conf to use other name servers so I could browse the Interwebs while I have `local_unbound_enable="YES"` in /etc/rc.conf. However, rebooting my laptop did not reset my  /etc/resolv.conf so I guess I was a bit lucky there. Either way, I will "fix" my setup by commenting the line `auto-trust-anchor-file: /var/unbound/root.key`.



I fixed that and I again have DNS resolving working. This time using my local unbound daemon. Thanks!


----------



## hukadan (Jan 30, 2019)

tommiie said:


> This time using my local unbound daemon.


Good news. I guess the next step for you is to have a look at dns/void-zones-tools .


----------



## tenchu (Jan 30, 2019)

SirDice said:


> At least you learned a lot in that period, so it wasn't entirely useless. Even knowing how _not_ to do things is valuable knowledge. Just take things step by step. Don't try to cut corners, be methodical, and you'll be fine



I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head.  I've probably learnt more in one day dealing with problems than I would have in a week of reading some book.  That said I've taken advice given here and decided to improve my knowledge of TCP/IP.  I've purchased TCP/IP in 24hrs from amazon in an effort to get to grips with it.  It looked like a decent book for a complete novice but if anyone here has any better recommendations I'm all ears. 

As most of you have probably gathered, my knowledge of IT is old and shaky.  If anyone here is a UK forum member you'll know what a GNVQ is.  I did an AVCE (advanced GNVQ) about 20 years ago when assignments were handed in on 3 1/2 inch floppys, so as I'm finding most of what I know is redundant.  VB6 which I was taught is now obsolete as is most of the hardware, and I've forgotten almost every HTML tag and line of javascript I've ever typed. 

I've started from scratch and am relearning the hardware with a raspberry pi and a few arduinos.  I've dabbled in Python and C and am currently having a mess about with assembly for the r-pi.

The networking stuff seems to elude me still as it did 20 years ago so you may find me here asking more questions when my book arrives.

Regards,
Nick


----------



## Beastie7 (Jan 31, 2019)

Now erase everything and do it again for knowledge sake. 


I keed.


----------



## forquare (Jan 31, 2019)

tenchu said:


> If anyone here is a UK forum member



Hullo from South Wales!  I did my AVCE in ICT back between 2004 and 2006, but did go off and get a CS degree. Still plenty of things I don't understand, and getting into FreeBSD wasn't buttery smooth for me, but now I'm here I'm extremely comfortable 



tenchu said:


> That said I've taken advice given here and decided to improve my knowledge of TCP/IP.  I've purchased TCP/IP in 24hrs from amazon in an effort to get to grips with it.  It looked like a decent book for a complete novice but if anyone here has any better recommendations I'm all ears.



Personally, I found Networking for System Administrators invaluable.  It approaches networking from someone who is familiar with the computer side of things, and somewhat assumes you just need to know enough to get on well with a Network Administrator and explain a problem.  While it won't teach you all of the in and outs and edge cases, it does a good job of saying "here's some basic foundation stuff", then goes on to show you how to troubleshoot various parts of those foundations (but doesn't go into fixing them).
It may not be all that useful for someone who wants to know more, or who wants to create and administer their own network, but I certainly found it very useful 

Congrats for getting a working machine!
Ben


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Jan 31, 2019)

tenchu said:


> That said I've taken advice given here and decided to improve my knowledge of TCP/IP.  I've purchased TCP/IP in 24hrs from amazon in an effort to get to grips with it.  It looked like a decent book for a complete novice but if anyone here has any better recommendations I'm all ears.



Using TCP/IP Special Edition by John Ray. 1999

Includes CD-ROM.


----------



## xavi (Jan 31, 2019)

tenchu said:


> If anyone here is a UK forum member



Hi,

Also in the UK. Welcome to the forums and congratulations on choosing FreeBSD 
You'll find this a very welcoming community, so long as you can show that you have done some of the legwork before asking your question. 

With regards to books about TCP/IP, the canonical UNIX tome is probably TCP/IP Illustrated by Richard Stevens. 
There is a second edition but most people seem to prefer the first edition. 
I only have the first, so not sure what's been updated.


----------



## SirDice (Jan 31, 2019)

xavi said:


> With regards to books about TCP/IP, the canonical UNIX tome is probably TCP/IP Illustrated by Richard Stevens.


That's definitely the best book if you really want to know all the ins and outs in excruciating detail. Maybe not so good for beginners, it might be a bit too advanced. Certainly a good read if you already know some of the basics. It's definitely a worthwhile investment, even if you only use it as reference.


----------



## tommiie (Jan 31, 2019)

Todd Lammle's book on CCNA is a good book for networking. Cisco's CCNA program is one of the best regarding networking and Lammle is one of the best authors on the subject (in my opinion). I haven't read Lucas' book Networking for System Administrators but by the sound of it, it's a better starting point to get your feet wet.


----------



## xavi (Jan 31, 2019)

tommiie said:


> I haven't read Lucas' book Networking for System Administrators but by the sound of it, it's a better starting point to get your feet wet.



This is what Michael has to say about who should read his book:

*Who Should Read This Book?*
_Every systems administrator, database admin, web admin, developer, and so on should
understand the basic principles of networking. This book grounds you in modern TCP/IP
without demanding a month’s dedicated study. Understanding the network will empower
you to identify the real source of problems, solve your own problems more quickly, and
make better requests of your team members.
This book is also for network administrators who need to educate others in their team
about the essentials of networking. After a few years, a network administrator’s
understanding of TCP/IP turns into this interconnected morass of window scaling and
sequence numbers and malformed packets. Someone asks us what a port is, and moments
later we’re explaining SYN floods and the person we’re talking to has learned the vital
lesson of “never ask the network administrator anything.” (This trait isn’t exclusive to
network administrators—it’s endemic in the IT industry. Ask a database administrator to
explain databases sometime.) That stuff is all vital to a network administrator’s job, but
the average user doesn’t need to understand it. You can use this book to explain only
what the average sysadmin absolutely must know about TCP/IP._

So, I don't think that this is a good first book on TCP/IP or networking in general for a beginner, unless you're a beginner sysadmin. 
Hence the title of the book. However, I'll leave it to the OP to decide whether they feel that they fit into Michael's target audience above.


----------



## tenchu (Jan 31, 2019)

Well my new found friends, the fun begins all over again.
 I've just got my Dell Inspiron back from the shop with its swanky new keyboard installed and a new charger.  I've decided I liked the last round of punishment so much I'd install BSD on this one aswell; and considering Windows has just tried to format my vape in drive F: I think I've made a wise choice.


----------



## SirDice (Jan 31, 2019)

tenchu said:


> I've decided I liked the last round of punishment so much I'd install BSD on this one aswell;


The more you do it the easier it gets. I don't even want to know how many times I reinstalled everything in the past 15 years


----------



## tenchu (Jan 31, 2019)

SirDice said:


> The more you do it the easier it gets. I don't even want to know how many times I reinstalled everything in the past 15 years



Well at first glace I suspect this OS will be a lot easier to deal with when trying to remedy problems compared to Windows, so I suspect the scorched earth policy that I usually apply won't be necessary, or at least not as often.


----------



## malavon (Jan 31, 2019)

tenchu said:


> Well at first glace I suspect this OS will be a lot easier to deal with when trying to remedy problems compared to Windows, so I suspect the scorched earth policy that I usually apply won't be necessary, or at least not as often.


I only reinstall FreeBSD when I switch to another PC, assuming I don't keep the same HDD/SSD. It's that good once you get to know it and know how to configure it and where to look in the unlikely event there's an issue.
Even OS updates are done in place, almost always without issues. The only thing that once bit me was using a software raid and upgrading FreeBSD which kind of broke it.

The main reason is that there's just a few files that are regularly modified:
/etc/rc.conf
/boot/loader.conf
and the configuration files in /usr/local/etc
Unlike Windows with its registry that keeps filling up with garbage.

And all installed software (packages, ports) goes into /usr/local, so no need to go search your disk to see what files were installed.
Also, `pkg info -l` helps a lot with that.


----------



## Spartrekus (Jan 31, 2019)

tenchu said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have tried about 7 times to install bsd on my old 32bit fujitsu-siemens without much luck.
> 
> ...



maybe deploy it on a >= 16 mb pendrive :








						deploy-FreeBSD/deploy-freebsd.sh at master · spartrekus/deploy-FreeBSD
					

** NO WARRANTY ** FOR EXPERTS ONLY!  ** Fast deployment, without security at all. no warranty (expert use, dev only) (entropy issue free) ** - deploy-FreeBSD/deploy-freebsd.sh at master · spartreku...




					github.com
				



It has entropy fix.

Boot it with F12, F9 ... at boot of machine to run the usb stick.

Belkin N150 or Belkin N300 usb dongle recommended to get net.

with /etc/rc.conf with : 
#wlans_rtwn0="wlan0"
wlans_ath0="wlan0"
ifconfig_wlan0="WPA DHCP"
ifconfig_wlan0_ipv6="inet6 accept_rtadv"
create_args_wlan0="country US regdomain FCC"

and populate wpa wireless /etc/... 

or dhclient for using ethernet.


----------



## Sevendogsbsd (Jan 31, 2019)

Funny you are on this topic: been thinking about this. I hang out sometimes on Linuxquestions, mainly to help folks and read the crazy posts...I used to think, when I first started in FreeBSD, that this would be hard, that it would take a lot of work. I can tell you the effort required (for me) to get a FreeBSD desktop up pales in comparison to Slackware. What a nightmare. The only Linux distro in 20 years I have never been able to get X running on modern hardware. Maybe because it isn't written for modern hardware, who knows. Even Gentoo was far easier. Slack just does things very strangely, and not like any other distro I have seen. 

'nuff said, before I wander too far off topic...


----------



## Spartrekus (Jan 31, 2019)

Sevendogsbsd said:


> Funny you are on this topic: been thinking about this. I hang out sometimes on Linuxquestions, mainly to help folks and read the crazy posts...I used to think, when I first started in FreeBSD, that this would be hard, that it would take a lot of work. I can tell you the effort required (for me) to get a FreeBSD desktop up pales in comparison to Slackware. What a nightmare. The only Linux distro in 20 years I have never been able to get X running on modern hardware. Maybe because it isn't written for modern hardware, who knows. Even Gentoo was far easier. Slack just does things very strangely, and not like any other distro I have seen.
> 
> 'nuff said, before I wander too far off topic...



But slackware was a early distribution, with numerous books and possible documentations.
Likely the precompiled kernel is the issue for slackware.

FreeBSD is robust. Things are where they should. It is far more secured for a server, has a great networking, and it looks safer to power a server. X never crashes, just awesome.

The above issue to return to the thread can be overcome, surely.


----------



## PMc (Jan 31, 2019)

tenchu said:


> it's been 8 and a half hours, multiple smoke breaks,



_laugh_ Congrats! 
I was following this thread yesterday, and figured there are already a lot of great people helping on so it doesn't need me to comment as well. 

But there is a thing I l learn from this: it seems today folks just see there can be a desktop (or whatever) configured, and then they want to have that running on their machine rightaway, here and now - mostly disregarding all the many things that can be learned on the way - seeing these things (like text editor, network, etc.) rather as obstacles than as features.

When I started to use unix (a couple decades ago), I cherished all these pieces, tried to understand them and figure out what else can be done with each of them. And consequently, without me having proper education or diploma, this then brought me a nice and well paid consulting job - because I knew how the things work, while the business scientists had not much clue about that.
I recently thought this would have changed nowadays, but from what I experienced just today while booking some overnight stays with a major online booking service, when their web booking services seem to just have fallen apart during my bookings (they are now _somewhere_, part in the credit card's database, part at the accomodation site's database, but not online), it seems there is still a high demand for people who *know* what they are doing...


----------



## tenchu (Jan 31, 2019)

PMc said:


> _laugh_ Congrats!
> I was following this thread yesterday, and figured there are already a lot of great people helping on so it doesn't need me to comment as well.
> 
> But there is a thing I l learn from this: it seems today folks just see there can be a desktop (or whatever) configured, and then they want to have that running on their machine rightaway, here and now - mostly disregarding all the many things that can be learned on the way - seeing these things (like text editor, network, etc.) rather as obstacles than as features.
> ...



The problem really is having the information available in a formated suited to its audience.  I am a complete beginner so following the handbook can lead to more frustrations than solutions.  I think the forums here are definitely this OSs saving grace.  After trawling through the available options on amazon its easy to see there isn't anywhere near the volume of beginners books for this OS in comparison to say Windows or Linux, which is a shame because I think if more people were introduced to it it would catch up to linuxs' market share quickly.  As a new user I'd like to know how to perform basic tasks and have the info in one place i.e. small handbook with info on how to manage users/software/files and so on.  Once I know that and can make use of the system I can then spend more time looking at the system in depth.  Thats exactly what I did with other OSs.  I did buy the one available tome on BSD 'Absolute FREEBSD' and found that it's not massively user friendly; hence my five weeks of frustration and eventual trip here to ask for help.  On a positive note I've now got a system I'm thoroughly happy with, so much so I've installed it on a second laptop today (yes I did have the exact same problem as last time and had to go back through this thread following the instructions).


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 1, 2019)

tenchu said:


> After trawling through the available options on amazon its easy to see there isn't anywhere near the volume of beginners books for this OS in comparison to say Windows or Linux


Unlike Windows and Linux, FreeBSD is a professional operating system for professionals and serious amateurs. Not at all for Mom, Pop and the kids to play their games on. You can do such things but FreeBSD won't hold your hand. It will assume you know what you're doing to some extent and are willing to look up the things you don't.


> which is a shame because I think if more people were introduced to it it would catch up to linuxs' market share quickly.


There is no contest and, if there is, FreeBSD is not participating. This OS, thankfully, is more interested in technical superiority than pretty fireworks and sales pitches at Best Buy. That's what makes Linux the hell hole it is today.


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

I do wish vermadens tutorial on building a desktop from scratch was added to the handbook. It's much more thorough and descriptive than what's currently in the handbook. Or perhaps split the handbook into two; one for the headless server administration and building your desktop from scratch.


----------



## Spartrekus (Feb 1, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Unlike Windows and Linux, FreeBSD is a professional operating system for professionals and serious amateurs.


It will be never sufficient enough closer to Unix 
FreeBSD is made very easy to use actually.


----------



## Toolforger (Feb 1, 2019)

PMc said:


> But there is a thing I l learn from this: it seems today folks just see there can be a desktop (or whatever) configured, and then they want to have that running on their machine rightaway, here and now - mostly disregarding all the many things that can be learned on the way - seeing these things (like text editor, network, etc.) rather as obstacles than as features.



That's a pretty normal attitude.
Actually it's unavoidable - if you wanted to know what you're doing about everything, you'd spend all of your life learning stuff instead of doing stuff. The question is more which of the things you want to learn and which of the things you merely want to use.

Particularly with the networking issues: I had the exact same problem as the OP, and I had to search for tips&tricks (and weed out the no-more-applicable ones) for several days just to find that /etc/rc.conf line that I had to change. It's a pretty steep entry barrier; I was able to deal with it because I learned the Internet with Trumpet Winsock, then Linux when dhcp was already in place, but as we have seen in this thread, it's still requiring things that a non-techie has no hope of overcoming without help.

I'd really like if the FreeBSD installer autodetected network cards and did the little zeroconf dances that all the other operating systems do for you.
I know that it's not really in line with the FreeBSD philosophy of "your system, your control", but then hardware autodetection already works, and networking is one of these all-important enablers these days.

Philosophically: If full control is impossible because you can't learn everything, give the user the choice what to learn and what to leave to the mechanisms. But do provide the mechanisms.

For me, this means no FreeBSD on the desktop for a while. At least not until I feel confident on the command line, which will take me a while. Because the desktop is something that I don't want to learn the details about, I want to just use it (as opposed to server operation where I want and need the control).
For my NAS, security is paramount because it's my last line of defense against ransomware and (at least some degree of) spear attacks. The data is going to be important enough to rule out Linux, so I'm willing to learn a new operating system (no matter which, it's always a major investment of time) and take control. But ordinarily, I wouldn't want to do that because my primary interests aren't in operating systems (not in existing ones anyway).

Well, enough rambling.
I was just trying to explain how my situation fits, and where I see the next hurdles for further FreeBSD adoption; feel free to ignore, as I'm not going to set the goals of the FreeBSD project, I'm just gratefully accepting what's there where it happens to fit my bill.


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

Toolforger said:


> I'd really like if the FreeBSD installer autodetected network cards and did the little zeroconf dances that all the other operating systems do for you.
> I know that it's not really in line with the FreeBSD philosophy of "your system, your control", but then hardware autodetection already works, and networking is one of these all-important enablers these days.



I'd pretty much something like this for any desktop related drivers - GPU, Sound, etc. A simple checkbox during installation could do desktop component enumeration, then all that's needed is building your desktop. There's devmatch() that's being worked on but i'm not sure what the current status is of that or if it's in the installer.

If FreeBSD isn't going to ship a destop by default - at least make it easier to get one up and running!


----------



## tommiie (Feb 1, 2019)

Beastie7 said:


> If FreeBSD isn't going to ship a destop by default - at least make it easier to get one up and running!



I did not yet try to install a GUI on my laptop. I'm currently happy working only in the CLI. If you find the installation of a GUI too difficult and/or cumbersome, why don't you use GhostBSD then? I'm still very new to BSD but I thought GhostBSD = FreeBSD + GUI out-of-the-box. You will get the benefits of FreeBSD with a GUI pre-installed.

Given that so many servers run FreeBSD, I can understand why the developers don't bother with the GUI that much.


----------



## SirDice (Feb 1, 2019)

Beastie7 said:


> If FreeBSD isn't going to ship a destop by default


Lets, for the sake of argument, assume this will someday happen. What desktop should be chosen as default? Your preferences may not coincide with mine. So maybe I don't like your suggestion of that default and I'm going to suggest a different one. You then end up with an endless debate about which desktop should be set as default. Then there's a whole bunch of FreeBSD users that never use a desktop, should you force that desktop onto them too? FreeBSD uses the best option available, it doesn't force that default on you, it leaves it up to the individual users to pick his or her own "default". 



Beastie7 said:


> at least make it easier to get one up and running!


It's dead simple these days. But most new users try to run before they're able to walk, and wonder why they fall. That's an expectation problem, not a technical one.


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

tommiie said:


> why don't you use GhostBSD then?



Because I don't like GhostBSD and would rather stick with the source. I don't see the point in GhostBSD when the FreeBSD developers could coordinate on a graphical ISO.



SirDice said:


> Lets, for the sake of argument, assume this will someday happen. What desktop should be chosen as default? Your preferences may not coincide with mine. So maybe I don't like your suggestion of that default and I'm going to suggest a different one. You then end up with an endless debate about which desktop should be set as default. Then there's a whole bunch of FreeBSD users that never use a desktop, should you force that desktop onto them too? FreeBSD uses the best option available, it doesn't force that default on you, it leaves it up to the individual users to pick his or her own "default".



Then you simply drop into a shell and build your own or select 'manual mode' in the installer. Shipping a desktop does not mean eliminating any way of choosing how one would want their desktop experience to be. It's about attracting more 'mere mortals' with a FreeBSD being viable option to get into. Not everyone has the time to curate a working desktop from scratch - although I prefer it.. Debian ships a headless and graphical ISO - it's simple.

As for which desktop - a general consensus can be made on desktop paradigm would be best for the general user. Throw up a poll, etc.



SirDice said:


> It's dead simple these days. But most new users try to run before they're able to walk, and wonder why they fall. That's an expectation problem, not a technical one.



Automatic driver detection for the desktop is still a pain in FreeBSD. Hell, I'm still having problems getting bluetooth working. If someone expects simplicity in setting up a desktop - at least provide a means of automatically loading drivers - ie like Toolforgers situation.


----------



## tommiie (Feb 1, 2019)

Again, why don't you use GhostBSD?


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

tommiie said:


> Again, why don't you use GhostBSD?



Because I don't want to use it. I've edit my post above as well.


----------



## hukadan (Feb 1, 2019)

Beastie7 said:


> Not everyone has the time to curate a working desktop from scratch


What about sysutils/desktop-installer ?


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

hukadan said:


> What about sysutils/desktop-installer  ?



Absolutely. But put it IN the installer! This a great compromise without putting xorg, mesa3d, DRM, DRI, etc etc in base.


----------



## hukadan (Feb 1, 2019)

Beastie7 said:


> But put it IN the installer!


Why ? The person not able to issue a single command (namely `pkg install desktop-installer`)  to get a desktop configuration should probably not use FreeBSD anyway.


----------



## tommiie (Feb 1, 2019)

I really don't understand the issue here. You can use FreeBSD and run `pkg install desktop-installer` or use GhostBSD. Why are you so bend on having FreeBSD do it for you? It sounds like you want FreeBSD to be something that FreeBSD itself does not want to be.


----------



## PMc (Feb 1, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Unlike Windows and Linux, FreeBSD is a professional operating system for professionals and serious amateurs.



Yes, very much that way. Windows and Linux have a (more or less) clear distinction between consumer versions and business (aka "enterprise") versions - and to handle the latter, you are recommended to do courses to become some whatever-certified-whatever. In FreeBSD there is only the professional/business version, and you are as well expected to aquire some skills to handle it successfully.

And there is something else: when I finally achieve to make feature X run on system Y, then it is rather straightforward afterwards to write a tutorial on how that was achieved. But for FreeBSD this does mostly not apply, because most features were originally developed in Berkeley. There is e.g. no point in describing how to make Internet work on Berkeley-Unix, because Berkeley-Unix was what made the Internet work in the first place.

I might suppose the FreeBSD user base is not so much interested in getting many FreeBSD desktop users who wantz zu runz their desktopz on freebsdz bekause it is so kuuulz to have freebsdz as desktopz. --- Instead we would like to encourage you to learn and study and undestand a bit more about practical computing, so to get more empowered and have more of a clue about the inner workings of all that IT surrounding us everywhere today.


----------



## xavi (Feb 1, 2019)

SirDice said:


> What desktop should be chosen as default? Your preferences may not coincide with mine. So maybe I don't like your suggestion of that default and I'm going to suggest a different one. You then end up with an endless debate about which desktop should be set as default.



I take your point, but isn't there already 'prior art' in the FreeBSD installer? Which filesystem do you want to use with FreeBSD? UFS or ZFS? Some want one, some want the other. Rather than insist that you have a specific one decided by the developers, there is an option within the installer. IMHO installing a GUI should be no different. Don't want one, click past it in the installation process. Do want one? Select one from a list. As part of the post-installation reboot the GUI that you specified could be pulled down and installed. That way the GUI packages need not be part of the base system (another excuse people (rightfully) give for not including a GUI in the installation).

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just play devil's advocate, and the more I use FreeBSD, the more I have come around to the current way of thinking (i.e. no GUI option in the installer). However, if we did add an option in the installer, a lot of the forum threads involving new users and GUI's would disappear. And as another user mentioned, making the OS more appealing to first time users may increase uptake and contributions.


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

tommiie said:


> Why are you so bend on having FreeBSD do it for you? It sounds like you want FreeBSD to be something that FreeBSD itself does not want to be.



Re-read Toolforgers post and you'll understand my issue. If FreeBSD isn't going to ship a desktop (which is fine), make setting one up simpler.

The whole purpose is to make the barrier to entry a lot easier - at first glance. The alternative is to use the installer.

There are a multitude of issues with the GhostBSD approach, so I don't even consider that. But that's another argument i won't get into.


----------



## PMc (Feb 1, 2019)

Beastie7 said:


> If FreeBSD isn't going to ship a destop by default - at least make it easier to get one up and running!



Well, I'd suppose that has already been done. You can get it here.


----------



## PMc (Feb 1, 2019)

xavi said:


> I take your point, but isn't there already 'prior art' in the FreeBSD installer? Which filesystem do you want to use with FreeBSD? UFS or ZFS? Some want one, some want the other. Rather than insist that you have a specific one decided by the developers, there is an option within the installer. IMHO installing a GUI should be no different.



Easy answer here: You need the filesystem first in order to install the system onto it, so this has to be answered first.
But you dont need a desktop first in order to install the system onto it.


----------



## tommiie (Feb 1, 2019)

Toolforger said:


> The data is going to be important enough to rule out Linux



Why would linux be unsafe or not trustworthy enough for your data? If you already know linux, why not spend the time to better understand it so you can make a safe setup instead of learning a new OS and then not learning it well enough so you'll end up with an unsafe setup anway?


----------



## tommiie (Feb 1, 2019)

Beastie7 said:


> Re-read Toolforgers post and you'll understand my issue.



Sorry, I don't understand the issue. I'm new to FreeBSD as well and it's quite obvious to me that FreeBSD was not designed for the complete newbies who have no knowledge whatsoever about computer systems or networks. If you are, FreeBSD is not for you. Try Mac, some Linux flavour, GhostBSD...


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

tommiie said:


> I'm new to FreeBSD as well and it's quite obvious to me that FreeBSD was not designed for the complete newbies who have no knowledge whatsoever about computer systems or networks.



Ok, let's take this argument further. Why even have an installer to begin with? The expectation is to have people understand the inner-workings of a system; why not scrap the whole concept of an installer and manually install everything the Arch way? You see where i'm going with this?

People who use this argument when it comes to FreeBSD desktop drive me up the wall. At least put a damn an WiFi SSID locator in the installer at least so i won't have to futz with config files on every FreeBSD installation.


----------



## tommiie (Feb 1, 2019)

You don't like FreeBSD because it has no desktop GUI. Then install GhostBSD as it _is_ FreeBSD with a desktop.


----------



## SirDice (Feb 1, 2019)

Why is FreeBSD not (more) like ....


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

tommiie said:


> You don't like FreeBSD because it has no desktop GUI. Then install GhostBSD as it _is_ FreeBSD with a desktop.



I love it.  I just wish certain desktop subsystems were automated at least - like WiFi and device probing for drivers. I'm fine with it not having a GUI.

GhostBSD is just more fragmentation IMO. Again, I'm not fond of what they're doing either.


----------



## shkhln (Feb 1, 2019)

tommiie said:


> GhostBSD as it _is_ FreeBSD with a desktop.



s/FreeBSD/TrueOS/


----------



## forquare (Feb 1, 2019)

IIRC, FreeBSD was once shipped with installer that had the ability to configure a GUI.  Due to lack of maintenance by anyone that used it, it became broken by other updates, bugs didn't get fixed, etc.  When deciding what to do with the installer feature it was decided that it would be removed rather than fixed because no-one came forward to fix it. (This is me remembering a segment from a past BSDNow episode, so details may not be correct)

If you want it there is precedence for it being there, but you may have to make sure it gets there yourself (be that coding it yourself, lobbing developers for it, sponsoring the FreeBSD Foundation to do it, etc)


----------



## Toolforger (Feb 1, 2019)

tommiie said:


> Why would linux be unsafe or not trustworthy enough for your data? If you already know linux, why not spend the time to better understand it so you can make a safe setup instead of learning a new OS and then not learning it well enough so you'll end up with an unsafe setup anway?



I'll establish safety by minimizing the attack surfaces. I.e. no services that I didn't explicitly enable - with Linux, the distro may add a new shiny service (with associated security holes) with any update, and I don't expect that to happen with FreeBSD.

It's going to be a NAS, which is essentially single-user except for technical users that operate the various jails.
It is going to pull data via SSH (or rsyncd if that turns out to be _both_ easier and safer, but I doubt it). No sshd on the NAS, no remote control of any kind - minimizing the attack surface.
The data is going to be published via a Samba stack that has been hard-configured to disallow write access. If Samba cannot do that reliably enough, I'll configure it to serve from a read-only view of the ZFS-based data filesystem.

So... I'm minimizing not just the attack surface, I'm also minimizing the impact of my relative incompetence 

Besides, I have the idea that while I'll be hindered more by lack of experience, I'll get better results once I get up to speed. Linux limits have always been pretty soft and incomplete, and I don't really trust the somewhat incoherent mixture of ulimit, cgroups, and systemd that Linux is relying on today. (systemd is far too feature-hungry for its own good, and that's generally what I see in the Linux world: More regard than getting things IN, while FreeBSD has a focus on getting things RIGHT. Which doesn't mean that FreeBSD is free from defects, it's just that I expect less defects in the FreeBSD world, even if it's at the price of less features. I pay that price willingly to get my secure NAS; I not so sure about the effort-to-effect ratio for, say, setting up a developer workplace, but that's not my current demand so I don't worry too much about that.)

(Btw 'nuff said about installers and such. It's a no-no on this forum, and I respect that.)
(Plus forquare is right on spot that complaining isn't helpful, making things happen is.)


----------



## roddierod (Feb 1, 2019)

forquare said:


> IIRC, FreeBSD was once shipped with installer that had the ability to configure a GUI.  Due to lack of maintenance by anyone that used it, it became broken by other updates, bugs didn't get fixed, etc.  When deciding what to do with the installer feature it was decided that it would be removed rather than fixed because no-one came forward to fix it. (This is me remembering a segment from a past BSDNow episode, so details may not be correct)
> 
> If you want it there is precedence for it being there, but you may have to make sure it gets there yourself (be that coding it yourself, lobbing developers for it, sponsoring the FreeBSD Foundation to do it, etc)



Back in the FreeBSD 4.x, days I remember this, 5.x might have still had it but 5 was kind of wonky.  Then there was what I call the Apple exodus and wonky got wonky. There even used to be a port called instant-workstation which was maintained by Greg "groggy" Lehey.

I think now a quick graphical desktop could be added to the installer, something like OpenBSD does.  But people would still cry about it because their sparkly new booble or win printer doesn't work with it. Or that it's some lightweight DE like fvvm instead of some heavy full fledged KDE/Gnome offering. 

I think when one comes to FreeBSD you have to realize that the projects goals are not world dominance and being number one (aka expanding the user base and being user friendly).

Just my $0.02


----------



## tommiie (Feb 1, 2019)

Toolforger: I'm sure you will have a decent firewall protecting your NAS from the public Internet? Even if your favorite Linux distro decides to add and enable some random service in a new update (which I highly doubt), your firewall will still block traffic to it.

I'm not saying you should go back to Linux. I myself just recently made the move from Linux to FreeBSD. I just wouldn't call Linux that much more insecure than FreeBSD.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 1, 2019)

If this is so important to people, I would think it wouldn't be all that difficult to put together a package--mostly a script--that could piece together some kind of desktop and, perhaps, present it as a port to the committers. I don't mean it will be easy--it could take weeks or months--but a basic package might not be that difficult, just time consuming.

Be prepared for all the complaints about what you did or did not include.


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 1, 2019)

drhowarddrfine said:


> If this is so important to people, I would think it wouldn't be all that difficult to put together a package--mostly a script--that could piece together some kind of desktop and, perhaps, present it as a port to the committers. I don't mean it will be easy--it could take weeks or months--but a basic package might not be that difficult, just time consuming.
> 
> Be prepared for all the complaints about what you did or did not include.



It's certainly worth looking into. Good enough for me to take a jab at writing myself.


----------



## ralphbsz (Feb 2, 2019)

tenchu said:


> ... which is a shame because I think if more people were introduced to it it would catch up to linuxs' market share quickly.


Why would I want FreeBSD to have Linux' market share?  That doesn't help me at all.  On the contrary, it is likely to hurt.  Today I use FreeBSD because it is a high-quality OS, put together with care, for reliability, logical operation, ease of long-term administration, and so on.  These attributes are not what gets an OS really high market share, which is ease of installation and administration, and a flashy GUI.  If the (small and fixed) set of developer resources get moved towards a consumer and beginner OS, then there is likely to be less effort in making it a reliable and well-built server OS.



Toolforger said:


> I'd really like if the FreeBSD installer autodetected network cards and did the little zeroconf dances that all the other operating systems do for you.


And I would disable any such dance, or switch to an OS that doesn't do that.  For my server, I want (and probably need) full control of the networking.

By the way, my day-to-day desktops are MacBooks (we own roughly a half dozen of them in our family).  For them, I love the automatic network configuration, the flashy GUI, and the polished surface (by that I mean not just the hardware, but the whole user experience).  But that's not where I deploy FreeBSD.



> For my NAS, security is paramount because it's my last line of defense against ransomware and (at least some degree of) spear attacks. The data is going to be important enough to rule out Linux, ...


Linux is a perfectly fine operating system.  A very large fraction of the world's data is stored on Linux, and it can be perfectly reliable, safe and secure, if administered carefully.  There is no reason to hate Linux.  Which doesn't mean that Linux is always the best choice; there is a reason that I choose to use FreeBSD for my home server.  Mostly it is that administering FreeBSD is simpler for me, because the system is cleaner and more logical in its construction, while having features (such as ZFS) that I need.  And the reason FreeBSD is cleaner is that it is simpler, because  is not designed around GUI.  All I need to say is "systemd", which came fundamentally out of the desire to better integrate the needs of a desktop with the `init` process, and then went sideways because of the personalities involved (Lennart) and the Linux development process and quality mindset.

Honestly: If FreeBSD dedicates a lot of effort to being a better desktop OS, I'll switch to Linux (which I use heavily, both at home and at work) or OpenBSD (which I used for my home servers before FreeBSD).


----------



## shkhln (Feb 2, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> Today I use FreeBSD because it is a high-quality OS, put together with care, for reliability, logical operation, ease of long-term administration, and so on.



Are those attributes somehow anti-desktop?



ralphbsz said:


> If the (small and fixed) set of developer resources get moved towards a consumer and beginner OS, then there is likely to be less effort in making it a reliable and well-built server OS.



Am I supposed to feel guilty for stealing precious developer time?


----------



## ralphbsz (Feb 2, 2019)

shkhln said:


> Are those attributes somehow anti-desktop?


Yes.  Desktop use adds a lot of complexity.  Not just a lot more software that needs to be maintained, but also fundamental changes.  Just one example: A single-user desktop system needs the ability to change permission and ownership of devices to match the person who is using the desktop (for example so a non-root user using the GUI can just insert a USB stick and it is mounted).  This kind of complexity is not needed on a server, and actually harmful: The identity of the logged-in user on the console in most cases should not influence what happens when a USB device is inserted.



> Am I supposed to feel guilty for stealing precious developer time?


Guilty?  No.  But we have to recognize that ultimately, there is a zero-sum game here: there are only so many developers and most of them are unpaid volunteers (unlike Linux, where a significant fraction of the developers are paid professionals).  They can work on one thing, or they can work on another thing, but they don't have enough time to work on everything.


----------



## chrbr (Feb 2, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> There is no reason to hate Linux. Which doesn't mean that Linux is always the best choice;


I agree. There are lots of threads and posts in this forum about FreeBSD vs Linux which could be exact copies of the Linux vs Windows flamewar discussions of years ago. This has been at the time when Linux has become more and more polular, about 10 to 15 years ago. There is no need to hate any OS.

The only thing one can really dislike are persons who push an OS as a religion and consider all others as evil. This includes persons who dislike non-mainstream stuff just for the reason they can not blame others in case of problems. Those guys who only care about having a clean slate, whatever it costs ( of course for the organisations they work for, not for themselves ...).

Let us enjoy all the options we have!


----------



## shkhln (Feb 2, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> Guilty?  No.  But we have to recognize that ultimately, there is a zero-sum game here: there are only so many developers and most of them are unpaid volunteers (unlike Linux, where a significant fraction of the developers are paid professionals). They can work on one thing, or they can work on another thing, but they don't have enough time to work on everything.



We should not forget that desktop brings _awareness_. I'd say, a general purpose OS should be able to serve as a reasonable developer workstation to newbie/hobby developers, otherwise there eventually would be no one to advocate it. Anything above that is probably not something that FreeBSD as a project should be concerned with, although if somebody wants to work on flashy GUIs — let them.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Feb 2, 2019)

shkhln said:


> a general purpose OS should be able to serve as a reasonable developer workstation to newbie/hobby developers, otherwise there eventually would be no one to advocate it.


First there was FreeBSD with plenty of advocates. Then, years later, came the newbie/hobby "developers". There have been plenty of advocates though we could always use more.


----------



## tenchu (Feb 2, 2019)

Right everyone, I feel like I've created Frankensteins monster with this thread here.  I came here to ask for help and some here have been in my opinion great ambasadors for BSD and got me up and running with advice and encouragement.  My comments and suggestions came purely as a new user of BSD and an uninformed one at that.  My intention was not to start a flamewar albeit it mild mannered one.  I know I don't have the authority to close this thread but I'm asking the admins to do so.  I've used the advice given here to get a second laptop up and running with BSD (ironically had the exact same issue setting up my Dell as I did with the fujitsu-siemens) and think the advice given from most was pretty solid and it certainly helped me, but this thread had definitely gone on a wild tangent and is now in Narnia somewhere.  

Is there any way of closing it and renaming it to point to the advice given so that it can be useful to anyone else who might have came across the same problem when setting up a new laptop?

Regards,
Nick


----------



## kpedersen (Feb 2, 2019)

We shouldn't even think about including a desktop with FreeBSD until we even have a fully working desktop environment. So far they are all quite broken (due to the haphazard way that Linux / freedesktop developers work). Automounting, networking, user management are not great experiences here on the main three DEs: Xfce, Mate or KDE.

(Gnome 3 doesn't exist. It isn't a DE but a launcher overlay for a fictional phone OS 

And when we do get one desktop fully working. We should make a fully working port for it.

... and then it doesn't need to be provided in the FreeBSD installation because ports are easy to install XD.


----------



## trev (Feb 3, 2019)

I learned networking with FreeBSD 2.1 and Networking UNIX (SAMS Publishing, 1995). I still occasionally refer to it.


----------



## Beastie7 (Feb 3, 2019)

ralphbsz said:


> Why would I want FreeBSD to have Linux' market share? That doesn't help me at all.





ralphbsz said:


> These attributes are not what gets an OS really high market share, which is ease of installation and administration, and a flashy GUI. If the (small and fixed) set of developer resources get moved towards a consumer and beginner OS, then there is likely to be less effort in making it a reliable and well-built server OS.





ralphbsz said:


> Linux is a perfectly fine operating system. A very large fraction of the world's data is stored on Linux, and it can be perfectly reliable, safe and secure, if administered carefully. There is no reason to hate Linux.



This is unbearably naive.



ralphbsz said:


> Honestly: If FreeBSD dedicates a lot of effort to being a better desktop OS, I'll switch to Linux



There already have been. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.


----------



## tenchu (Feb 3, 2019)

Sadly it looks like my attempt to bring peace to this thread has fell flat on its face. As a new user of BSD I was astonished by the amount of help I was given here and am very thankful for it. However it seems the forums here are no better than those I've seen elsewhere and have decended into a slanging match of one OS/kernel vs another, which is sad to see. 

This is a top notch OS for those that know how to use it and can be for newcomers such as myself with the kind of help I've received here. So lets not start flamewars among ourselves and focus on the purpose of these forums which I'm sure is to help new users get to grips topics which may be unfamiliar to them.


----------



## Spartrekus (Feb 3, 2019)

Beastie7 said:


> This is unbearably naive.
> 
> 
> 
> There already have been. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.



What worries me the most is there : systemd and too devuan, which has inside some malwares.


----------



## Crivens (Feb 3, 2019)

tenchu welcome to the real world. When no real problems are around, people start to squabble about nothing. Insert  the two old geezers image from muppet show here in your mind, please. When this starts, it means nothing other that some people brush their shoulders and spare off a bit. Sadly, in the society, this tends to result in massive amounts of stupid. Here, we can simply close the thread.

Edit: I want to make it clear that I am using the muppets as an example for the behaviour and not to reference to any distinguished forum members.


----------

