# systemd gets inetd functions



## gpw928 (Oct 22, 2022)

I see that Ubuntu 22.10 delivers updates to OpenSSH "configured by default to use systemd socket activation, meaning that sshd will not be started until an incoming connection request is received.  This reduces the memory footprint of Ubuntu Server on smaller devices, VMs or LXD containers."

So it seems that the systemd crowd are subsuming and re-inventing inetd(8).


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## cmoerz (Oct 22, 2022)

We are systemd. Resistence is futile. 

All joking aside. I'm wondering how long it'll take until systemd is the whole monolithic kernel kitchen sink that Linux was supposedly never meant to be.

To quote another entertainment/movie reference: You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain.


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## mer (Oct 22, 2022)

gpw928 said:


> This reduces the memory footprint of Ubuntu Server on smaller devices, VMs or LXD containers.


Because sshd sitting there on a listen() takes so much memory.

top on an ubuntu 20.04 shows sshd with 1280 kb VIRT and 5644 kb RES.  Wow tons of memory in use.

So systemd will start up sshd if it's not running, so we have a lag to actually start sshd and hand off the connection, when session is done, I'm assuming sshd exits, then repeat on startup so Hmm, maybe a bit of cache thrashing and other virtual memory actions?


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## Crivens (Oct 22, 2022)

So is this a part of pid1 directly facing the network? What can _*possibly*_ go wrong?


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## mer (Oct 22, 2022)

Crivens said:


> So is this a part of pid1 directly facing the network? What can _*possibly*_ go wrong?


But now they can write "systemd-NG" to protect that.


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## scottro (Oct 22, 2022)

Sigh. Poettering goes to MS, but others continue his work. Which is why I gave a like to Crivens post.  For what it's worth, *lots* of Linux people loath systemd, enough of them so that many have made effort to create non-systemd systems, e.g., Devuan.


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 22, 2022)

E.g. there is void-linux with "runit" & gentoo-linux with "openrc".


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## Crivens (Oct 22, 2022)

mer said:


> But now they can write "systemd-NG" to protect that.


And if it all blows up, they'll bring back systemd-classic, and wonder why people think it's a nice ghetto barbequeue. I think Lennard has a knack for leaving just in time before things get unfortunately complicated.


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## mer (Oct 22, 2022)

Crivens said:


> Lennard has a knack for leaving just in time before things get unfortunately complicated.


Just like all the "best" (sarcasm)


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## scottro (Oct 23, 2022)

Completely off topic, but I just found out that firefox 106 enables you edit pdfs.  So, even though I'm definitely quite a Luddite, and think that many new things in computing are solutions in search of a problem, occasionally, (quite infrequently) some bloated feature creep can be useful. Shucks there are people with a lot more knowledge than me who feel systemd does a lot of good things. 

I did once see something interesting. It was to the effect that Poettering knew a lot about C but nothing about sytem administration.  

Had to give another like for Crivens's new post. He keeps making me laugh. Hrrm, Cry Crivens and let loose .....(ran out of ideas that seemed funny)


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## Phishfry (Oct 23, 2022)

scottro said:


> firefox 106 enables you edit pdfs. So, even though I'm definitely quite a Luddite, and think that many new things in computing are solutions in search of a problem


I agree. A pdf reader should do just that. I don't want hyperlinks. I want to have to copy and paste links.
xpdf is ideal.

Absurd as it sounds I enjoy printing a pdf. Enter form data by hand then fax to recipient.
Dumb and clumsy but I control all stages. I don't trust an embedded pdf editor with my personal details.

Unlike systemd where system logs need a reader.
What will the amorphis blob absorb next???


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## Phishfry (Oct 23, 2022)

We had a new user complaining about our startup time and messages the other day. 
All I could think of is what mindset systemd has enabled. Part of the instant gratification crowd.
I want it all now.

The more the blob swells the more it makes rc.d look like the beauty queen. Simple and elegant.


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## freezr (Oct 23, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> E.g. there is void-linux with "runit" & gentoo-linux with "openrc".



And Devuan with sysv, runit & openrc…


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## ct85711 (Oct 23, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> We had a new user complaining about our startup time and messages the other day.
> All I could think of is what mindset systemd has enabled. Part of the instant gratification crowd.
> I want it all now.
> 
> The more the blob swells the more it makes rc.d look like the beauty queen. Simple and elegant.


The fun part is that systemd isn't any faster on startup than openrc ever was.  I can't really say on runit, as I've never had a system use that to really give an comparison.  Even the gentoo-openrc is questionable on how much longer it lasts.  Last I heard Gentoo abandoned eudev (to an independent group of devs), I wouldn't be surprised next they will try get some distro take over openrc, fail and start abandoning that for another group scramble to maintain it in pieces.


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 23, 2022)

Gentoo openrc works currently very fine. But who can tell the future ?


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## Hobbes (Oct 23, 2022)

freezr said:


> And Devuan with sysv, runit & openrc…



Also Artix, with OpenRC, runit, s6, or Dinit.
Alpine Linux, with OpenRC...


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## scottro (Oct 23, 2022)

Phishfry wrote "I agree. A pdf reader should do just that. I don't want hyperlinks. I want to have to copy and paste links.
xpdf is ideal"  (I messed up with the quote feature of the forum)

Actually , in this case, I meant that I liked this particular feature. Prior to that, as FreeBSD is my main workstation, I'd have to ssh it over a Linux laptop and use the free version of masterpdfedit. Now I can do it on my FreeBSD machine. My handwriting is so bad, even printed, that I'm embarrassed to print and fill out and much prefer doing it with a program.  Although of course, there have been times when it's necessary to do it that way for things, for example, that require a signature. Now that I'm old and decrepit and have to, on ocasion, deal with social security and medicare (two things for old people in the US for our non-US readers) this firefox thing, though it's bloat, will be useful. Shall I be a complete hypocrite and say, Aside from being able to edit pdfs, Firefox has gotten really bloated.

(We talked about librewolf before on the forums, which cuts out a lot of the telemetry and other garbage, and it's much faster than firefox.  Only available on Linux for now).

To make this post really too long, as far as ct85711 says, I agree. Systemd isn't faster, especially when you get one of those running job at startup, wait 1 min, 30 seconds. Firstly, I don't care about boot time too much, and I think even Windows and Mac take awhile, getting their guis ready. Secondly, the fastest booting thing on a multiboot laptop that I have is Void, which as we've said, uses runinit.


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## hunter0one (Oct 23, 2022)

The trick is you can use Linux without systemd, but there's a good chance you can't use Linux without elogind.



Spoiler



I started disliking systemd back in my early days in the Linux world because I used Manjaro and systemd would not do its job after an update. Ever since then that's been my experience with it.


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 23, 2022)

Gentoo wiki:
*elogind* is  the systemd project's _logind_, extracted to a standalone package. It's designed for users who prefer a non-systemd init system, but still want to use popular software such as KDE/Wayland or GNOME that otherwise hard-depends on systemd.


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## mer (Oct 23, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> that otherwise hard-depends on systemd.


Right there is the systemd problem in a nutshell.   No application should EVER rely/depend on/mandate a specific init system.
If you're going to do that you're better off extending systemd to include KDE/GNOME/Wayland and every application that you would ever need to run.  
It would be a simple system though.  A single executable that you burn to a disk and boot into


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## Whattteva (Oct 23, 2022)

mer said:


> Right there is the systemd problem in a nutshell.   No application should EVER rely/depend on/mandate a specific init system.
> If you're going to do that you're better off extending systemd to include KDE/GNOME/Wayland and every application that you would ever need to run.
> It would be a simple system though.  A single executable that you burn to a disk and boot into


Haha, at least making live bootable USB's are really simple now.


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## Crivens (Oct 23, 2022)

mer said:


> It would be a simple system though. A single executable that you burn to a disk and boot into


We would need a catchy name for it. Something suggesting it contains all... if I only had a catchy name


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## Alain De Vos (Oct 23, 2022)

Any good name belonges to the thread "Jokes".


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## wolffnx (Oct 24, 2022)

how much memory can use the ssh daemon? 
go for another one big monster  .. thanks god that linux is not the only operating system over there


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## Jose (Oct 24, 2022)

Crivens said:


> We would need a catchy name for it. Something suggesting it contains all... if I only had a catchy name


DOS?


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## recluce (Oct 25, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> E.g. there is void-linux with "runit" & gentoo-linux with "openrc".


Don't forget Artix Linux, which is Arch Linux minus systemd, plus systemd "stubs" to map certain functions expected by systemd-dependent software to use the equivalent, non-systemd tool chain (e.g. elogind).

You even get a choice of init systems:
1. OpenRC (default) 
2. Runit
3. s6
4. dinit

If I have to use Linux instead of FreeBSD, Artix with OpenRC is my choice. While not as stable as FreeBSD, it is rock-stable for a Linux distro - even though it is a rolling release.


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## Whattteva (Oct 25, 2022)

recluce said:


> If I have to use Linux instead of FreeBSD, Artix with OpenRC is my choice. While not as stable as FreeBSD, it is rock-stable for a Linux distro - even though it is a rolling release.


Don't mean to be nitpicky here, but a rolling release is, by definition, not stable.


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## hardworkingnewbie (Oct 25, 2022)

scottro said:


> I did once see something interesting. It was to the effect that Poettering knew a lot about C but nothing about sytem administration.



No, Poettering does not know a lot about C, because: there was once this stroke of genius from the systemd crew, where they wanted to have dbus implemented in the Linux kernel because it was so slow in userspace. Poettering was one of the driving factors behind it.

So when they had mostly finished their stuff, they have submitted their stroke of genius for kernel inclusion and Linus Torvalds reviewed it.

First of all most agreed that performance gains is not enough reason for something to be included into the kernel.

Second Linus not only reviewed kdbus, but also had a closer a look at dbus and profiled it. Something, which Poettering could have done by himself as well with ease.

To quote him:

_That said, I have to admit to being particularly disappointed with the
performance argument for merging it. Having looked at the dbus
performance, and come to the conclusion that the reason dbus performs
abysmally badly is just pure shit user space code, I am not AT ALL
impressed by the performance argument. We don't merge kernel code just
because user space was written by a retarded monkey on crack. Kernel
code has higher standards, and yes, that also means that it tends to
perform better, but no, "user space code is shit" is not a valid
reason for pushing things into the kernel.

So quite frankly, the "better performance" argument is bogus in my opinion.

That still leaves other arguments, but it does weaken the case for
kdbus quite a bit.

Because go out and read pretty much any argument for kdbus, and the
*first* argument is always performance. The articles never say "..
because the user-space dbus code is crap", though._

There you have it. In my opinion Poettering knows not much about C at all, otherwise Linus would have not roasted him in that kind of way.


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## oops (Oct 25, 2022)

hunter0one said:


> The trick is you can use Linux without systemd, but there's a good chance you can't use Linux without elogind.


*elogind* can be replaced by *consolekit2* (predecessor) or *seatd*. See list of distros.


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## zoujiaqing (Nov 9, 2022)

InitKit support FreeBSD https://github.com/InitKit/InitKit


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## Alain De Vos (Nov 9, 2022)

What do people not like elogind, or is there something wrong with it ?
I think I use it with gentoo.
Booting is fast.


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## hunter0one (Nov 13, 2022)

Alain De Vos said:


> What do people not like elogind, or is there something wrong with it ?


Elogind is "extracted logind" which comes from systemd, similarly to eudev which is "extracted udev" (replaced devfs). These might work just fine on their own but anything that the systemd team pushes will ultimately be a part of them, as they are parts of systemd. Consolekit2 used to do seat management.


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