# Suggestions - single board ITX ARM computers



## jammied (Mar 5, 2022)

Hi


Looking for suggestions for potential single board ARM computers.

Basic hardware requirements:
 - As many independent display outputs as possible.
 - SATA port.
 - M.2 slot.

Desirable: DC power input.

As you might have guessed, I intend to run BSD on it. Which is unlikely to be an issue so long as there is no kind of locked bootloader or unusual chipset. I do intend to use this as a desktop PC


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## hardworkingnewbie (Mar 5, 2022)

Here's the official list of supported ARM hardware under FreeBSD13:









						FreeBSD/ARM Project
					

FreeBSD is an operating system used to power modern servers, desktops, and embedded platforms.




					www.freebsd.org


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## covacat (Mar 5, 2022)

for a desktop you'll be better with a refurbished x86 thin client. you'll get better hw support,  a case, upgradable memory, pcie bus,sata








						HP t620 Flexible Thin Client
					

bought one of these (refurbished) https://support.hp.com/ee-en/document/c04017240 the dual core version 4GB RAM / 16G SSD got it cheaper than an arm board ($50) and it is well supported memory and ssd seem to be upgradable cpu performance is about the same as an arm64 board but IO is much better...




					forums.freebsd.org
				



here is some easy benchmarks for the hp thin client@1.65ghz , amlogic arm64 s905x3@1.9ghz, rpi zero, intel i5 gen 2@3ghz
the amlogic box runs debian

```
openssl speed sha256 md5
box     type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes  16384 bytes
hp-tc   sha256           19792.46k    42854.25k    72697.42k    88031.70k    94034.70k    94266.19k
        md5              49087.31k   122578.71k   233191.30k   300663.85k   327865.60k   330125.32k

s905x3  sha256           64943.43k   203063.55k   472577.79k   707701.81k   826034.86k   835600.38k
        md5              41637.26k   104540.38k   191902.46k   242194.43k   263259.10k   263798.78k

rpi-b   sha256            3261.35k     7738.51k    13970.35k    17334.62k    18593.65k    18278.34k
        md5               6509.79k    17495.66k    34052.33k    44766.08k    48273.13k    45405.27k

i5-g2   sha256           56989.57k   122289.70k   207796.05k   250989.74k   267362.37k   268043.26k
        md5             107395.62k   244430.83k   426506.84k   529907.03k   568827.90k   572533.42k

7z b in the same order, middle column is single thread, same order as above

                       Compressing  |                  Decompressing
Dict     Speed Usage    R/U Rating  |      Speed Usage    R/U Rating
----------------------------------  | ------------------------------
Avr:             185   1100   2032  |              199   1426   2834
Tot:             192   1263   2433

----------------------------------  | ------------------------------
Avr:             336    936   3147  |              394   1730   6821
Tot:             365   1333   4984

----------------------------------  | ------------------------------
Avr:              98    140    136  |               98    304    300
Tot:              98    222    218

----------------------------------  | ------------------------------
Avr:             321   4039  13005  |              400   3045  12182
Tot:             360   3542  12594
```


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## jammied (Mar 6, 2022)

One of the reasons I want an ARM board is power consumption/performance tradeoff.

With the going estimates for how high electricity costs are going to get in the UK, power consumption has turned into a very big deal.


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## covacat (Mar 6, 2022)

you are looking at 1.5 pound / month difference if the x86 draws 25W more than the arm box while using it 8hours / day
probably the difference is less than that
365*8*25/1000*.25 = 18.25 (yearly)


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## hardworkingnewbie (Mar 6, 2022)

If you really want to use an ARM CPU as desktop computer day by day, then this here is the best way to do it right now with having access to a big software library, good performance and no  big hassle: 









						Mac mini
					

Mac mini gets the all-new Apple M1 chip with 8-core CPU, 8-core GPU, Unified Memory, Neural Engine, machine learning technologies, Wi Fi 6 and more.



					www.apple.com
				




All other potential ARM desktop hardware is not as far advanced yet as Apple. Apple has taken the lead there in 2020, with all others catching up since then. 

The issue is that the market for ARM based mainboards really is starting at the moment, so there's not a big number to choose from yet. This will probably gain a bigger market share when Microsoft starts shipping ARM Windows to all. Qualcomm for example wants to ship ARM desktop CPUs in 2023.


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## Phishfry (Mar 6, 2022)

hardworkingnewbie said:


> The issue is that the market for ARM based mainboards really is starting at the moment, so there's not a big number to choose from yet.


Well there are some choices for servers(1) but they have no video and are unsuitable for a desktop.

I would say for a Arm board for desktop you stay with the herd=RPi4

(1) Overdrive 1000; MacchiatoBin; Honeycomb; ThunderX2
https://www.cnx-software.com/2016/0...ed-by-amd-opteron-a1100-64-bit-arm-processor/









						MACCHIATObin Single Shot - Marvell MACCHIATObin
					

The MACCHIATObin Single Shot is an entry-level, budget-minded and balanced development board including all the robust features of the MACCHIATObin with the ARMADA 8040 processor running up to 1.6 GHz processing speed and dual 10GbE SFP connectors. The Single Shot version is available at a much...




					macchiatobin.net


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## hardworkingnewbie (Mar 6, 2022)

The Pi 4 is quite a nice little device. Only problem when trying to use it with FreeBSD is that hardware driver support is still on-going for some stuff, e.g. Wifi is not working.


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## Phishfry (Mar 6, 2022)

Same with the Arm server boards. Many major components do not work.

I would buy an MACCHIATObin Single Shot but the Fiber ethernet ports are not supported.
That is a deal breaker. For $300+ I need that feature to work.

As for WiFi its kinda like the ethernet chips used on the baby Arm boards.
They just use the cheapest at the time of design. Make up something new. Wifi9+-+ or whatever.
Too trendy.
Wish they focused instead on PCIe fabric and slots instead of cheazy gizmos. Let me choose my wifi card.


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## Phishfry (Mar 6, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Wish they focused instead on PCIe fabric and slots


Also lets make that PCIe bus on Arm a standard.
We should not need a separate PCIe Bus driver for every implementation.

This is where Arm is missing a market driver like Intel.
They made the standards. Other followed.
Arm is a giant fragmented market that is more akin to an IP holding company. as the leader..
How many families of Arm chips are there?


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## Phishfry (Mar 6, 2022)

What is painful to me is Gateworks seems to have had the right idea many many years ago.
Plant a PLX chip on your IMX6 Platform and you can have 6 MiniPCIe slots.

The problem is nobody wants to spend $700 on Arm.








						Ventana GW5400 Single Board Computer - Gateworks Corporation - Single Board Computers
					

Ventana GW5400 Rugged & Industrial Single Board Computer The GW5400 is the largest member of the Gateworks 5th generation Ventana family of rugged and industrial media single board computer (SBCs) targeted for a wide range of indoor and outdoor applications that require video input and output...




					www.gateworks.com
				




Maybe I have different needs than other Arm users. I need expansion slots. 
Gateworks board is much like the APU2/3 but with more expansion slots.
Wish they were like $200 and supported on FreeBSD.
There has to be a happy medium between $35 Minimalist Arm boards and $750 gold standard.

I have a Raxda Rock 3A enroute from China. That seems to have the expansion I desire so we will see.


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## covacat (Mar 6, 2022)

if you just want a low powered desktop go x86
if you want to experiment / hack various stuff / go arm but do not expect 'desktop replacement'


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## Phishfry (Mar 6, 2022)

Yes and my philosophy is biased.
One of our developers acheron mentioned he was using a video card with the HoneyComb board.
With a single slot I dunno if I like that. Wasting the precious slot for video card. I would be trying Chelsio 10G..

But as a developer you can make anything work. HoneyComb as a desktop. Check.


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## cmoerz (Mar 6, 2022)

I was looking at HoneyComb myself recently; I remember the graphics card choice not being completely clear either. You needed to choose one that works with the board's firmware.

Reference to previous post:








						Honeycomb LX2
					

Today, I've gone down the rabbit hole on Solid Run's Honeycomb LX2.  For those who don't know it - it's an ARM based workstation, that looks very promising and reasonably priced. https://www.solid-run.com/arm-servers-networking-platforms/honeycomb-workstation/  I'm uncertain though, how well...




					forums.freebsd.org
				




Reference to some demo video:




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHcfZhStsA0_


I bailed on the board, after the online shop forced me to sign up with PayPal, which turned into a major PITA. Obviously, YMMV.


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## Phishfry (Mar 6, 2022)

Yea I just cant pay $750 for one PCIe slot. Without RAM.








						HoneyComb LX2 - LX2160A 16-core Arm Workstation - SolidRun
					

Networking Arm workstation - NXP LX2160A 16-core Arm A72 - Mini ITX form factor | Dual DDR4 SO-DIMM | 64GB eMMC | 4 x SATA | M.2 | 4 x SFP | Comm. Grade




					shop.solid-run.com
				



4 SATA is nice. 110mm NVMe slot is server grade. Solid NAS features.
Even with my generous tax refund I can not do it.
Being an early adopter ain't cheap!

Oh yea SolidRuns store charges premium shipping prices too.


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## cmoerz (Mar 6, 2022)

Yup, I agree, it's a hefty price tag. Particularly, because you need to bring your own memory, graphics, storage and box on top of it.


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## jammied (Mar 7, 2022)

Yeah, the HoneyComb's price tag is a little of a bummer but still quite an interesting option for my purposes. Might potentially then want some low cost dual output ARM boards to go with it. (I have an idea).

Also, as stated:


Phishfry said:


> But as a developer you can make anything work. HoneyComb as a desktop. Check.


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## Phishfry (Mar 7, 2022)

I wonder if the HoneyComb LX2 can take ECC RAM? That would be a ZFS must have for NAS.
Those little laptop RAM modules are usually expensive in ECC. I don't know about the 1.2V spec.
Better than soldered on RAM. 64GB Max is respectable,


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## Phishfry (Mar 7, 2022)

Looking here they support a pair of 32GB ECC modules. That would probably cost as much as the board.





						Com Express Type 7 LX2160A Tested SO-DIMM Memory - SolidRun
					

Introduction The intention of this page is to describe what has been tested on the LX2160A COM express type 7 module; what has passed and what has failed. Testing Methodology The testing methodology is mainly focused on running multiple instances of Linux memtester tool (as the core count) with...




					developer.solid-run.com
				




There is an old saying.
If you have to ask how much, then you can't afford it.


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## Phishfry (Mar 7, 2022)

I just sent a Dear Jane letter to Gateworks sales. Inquiring about 5 boards I donate to FreeBSD Foundation.
These are the newer i.MX8 version:








						Industrial Single Board Computer - Dual Ethernet - Gateworks Corporation - Single Board Computers
					

This industrial single board computer is rugged and built in the USA. Featuring industrial temperature ratings, dual ethernet ports, 3 Mini-PCIe Slots and a MIPI-CSI / MIPI-DSI Header.




					www.gateworks.com
				




Lets see where that goes. I would rather spend $1500 bucks of my tax return that way.
Trying to get boards into developers hands.


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## jammied (Mar 7, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> I just sent a Dear Jane letter to Gateworks sales. Inquiring about 5 boards I donate to FreeBSD Foundation.
> These are the newer i.MX8 version:
> 
> 
> ...



If you obtain them, let me know. Let me know if it the FreeBSD foundation would find it useful for one to make it's way into to my hands to.



			
				Carly Rae Jepsen said:
			
		

> Call me, maybe?


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## Phishfry (Mar 7, 2022)

Maybe if you got ${username}@freebsd.org
You might need to give Anne the secret handshake too.


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## jammied (Mar 7, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> Maybe if you got ${username}@freebsd.org
> You might need to give Anne the secret handshake too.



Does that essentially mean, when I become an official BSD developer?


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## Phishfry (Mar 7, 2022)

For charity I like to give to Foundations directly. Let them vet. I have United Way deducted directly from my check.
They might skim some but they are verifying for me.
No offense.
I laugh at the Santa with a kettle too. I give to the United Way.
Bums in the median strumming for money. I give to the United Way.

I just don't have time for due diligence so I hire a clearinghouse.
But seriously. There are only a handful of Arm developers doing alot of the work from what I can tell. 
vadot@, gonzo@, ian@, andriry@.
On top of that a major war affects probably half. Could not even send a board with any hopes of it arriving.

Look at IRC. Maybe 100 people in bsdmips. We have a skeleton crew. They deserve some appreciation.


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## jammied (Mar 7, 2022)

Yeah, we could definitely do without the political concerns to top everything... 

We do have those concerns though and we have to account for them unfortunately...


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## hardworkingnewbie (Mar 7, 2022)

The problem with ARM is that all ARM CPUs are created different, depending on the features the licensee acquired and wants to build in his own type of chip. Also depending on the stuff he might develop in house. Then there's also no standardized boot process, no BIOS/UEFI. 

And since ARM often means SoC, it also depends on the periphery coming with it. 

This is why you cannot simply take FreeBSD for ARM A to ARM B and expect it to work. No, it needs to be adapted to the new platform, boot process and drivers most likely. 

This is also why Apple likes it, they've got it under their control and since they are designing the CPUs by themselves they do know exactly how to wrap MacOS around it. For ARM on the desktop to get successful it either needs a standardized feature set, or only one major configurator for CPUs around. 

And by the way Intel is right now heavily betting on RISC-V, they are investing 1 billion into it. Some people are of the opinion that it is inevitable in the long run that RISC-V will replace ARM. Also China is heavily investing and betting on RISC-V, to get independent from Western technology IP.









						Intel’s strategy for outflanking Arm takes shape with bet on RISC-V
					

RISC-V chips could give Intel Foundry Services some much needed volume.




					arstechnica.com


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## covacat (Mar 7, 2022)

boot process is already abstracted by u-boot which can provide EFI api to the OS
I see no reason why risc v or foo isa or bar isa implementations will be any different than current arm ones


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## grahamperrin@ (Mar 7, 2022)

Phishfry said:


> There is an old saying.
> If you have to ask how much, then you can't afford it.



How much?


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## Phishfry (Mar 7, 2022)

WAY TOO MUCH.


> Our Venice products are in high demand. We are currently sold out for the
> year and are quoting 52 weeks lead time for new customers.
> If you would like to place an order we can put you in the queue and deliver
> as soon as more products become available.
> ...


There is no way I am going to waste my money on a board nobody will buy.
Nice features. Too expensive. I wonder what the BOM costs. The CPU is very inexpensive.


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