# Would this idea grow the FreeBSD userbase?



## jb_fvwm2 (Jan 11, 2022)

Have two types of usb install images for amd64: one-disk-systems [non default ZFS ], if
as I understand it now, the default is for ZFS [ more expensive setups] ... [ have not used the
install usb images recently so this post may be spurious... ]


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## SirDice (Jan 11, 2022)

jb_fvwm2 said:


> as I understand it now, the default is for ZFS


No, you have a choice.


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## Brian546 (Jan 11, 2022)

The goal should never be to simply attract users. Otherwise it ends up becoming like every other project; a clone of Ubuntu. What the goal should always be, however, is to release the best performing, highly stable SERVER based OS, with outstanding documentation. That alone will in turn attract the right people.


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## bsduck (Jan 11, 2022)

Brian546 said:


> SERVER based OS



www.freebsd.org:


> FreeBSD is an operating system used to power modern servers, desktops, and embedded platforms.


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## SirDice (Jan 11, 2022)

The goal is to provide the user with a choice, not to force them into some particular configuration.


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## srobert (Jan 11, 2022)

Brian546 said:


> The goal should never be to simply attract users. Otherwise it ends up becoming like every other project; a clone of Ubuntu. What the goal should always be, however, is to release the best performing, highly stable SERVER based OS, with outstanding documentation. That alone will in turn attract the right people.


The goal of releasing "the best performing, highly stable SERVER based OS, with outstanding documentation" depends upon having competent developers and contributors.
Dependencies:
competent developers and contributors --> large pool of potential developers and contributors --> general interest in the project --> desktop and laptop users
With its focus on development of a complete OS, including both kernel and OS utilities, its copyfree license, I don't see that attracting users will lead to FreeBSD becoming an Ubuntu clone, except perhaps in good ways, such as keeping pace on hardware support.


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## kpedersen (Jan 11, 2022)

srobert said:


> I don't see that attracting users will lead to FreeBSD becoming an Ubuntu clone, except perhaps in good ways, such as keeping pace on hardware support.


There are two sides of the coin. Yes, more users in general will hopefully bring with them some decent developers capable of i.e improving the OS.

However many users aren't always benefitting of a project and can sometimes spread the existing developers too thin requesting "ease of use" features rather than being technical and learning things themselves. i.e leading to slightly entitled opinions such as "why should I learn? I am simply a user not a developer".

It is what gave rise to the leader of OpenBSD in one interview outright saying that he didn't really want users which is probably logical but quite funny to hear in practice.

From what I can see, the most popular operating systems with the most amount of users are Windows and Android which are absolutely impossibly terrible pieces of malware. So really, this is some proof that attracting users is not a good goal for an OS project.

Edit: You also have another risk. Some developers don't simply want to improve the OS by writing drivers (or are not skilled enough to). Instead they want to do pointless crap like adding systemd and generally changing the project sideways rather than upwards. In many ways zero developers is better than those kinds of developers. At least having zero developers won't break things.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 11, 2022)

jb_fvwm2 said:


> …  grow the FreeBSD userbase? …
> 
> … install …



An installer that's more capable and more user-friendly would broaden the base. 









						Technology Roadmap
					

https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/technology-roadmap/  Enjoy.




					forums.freebsd.org
				




<https://forums.freebsd.org/posts/533163> there was a proof-of-concept installer.


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## chungy (Jan 11, 2022)

jb_fvwm2 said:


> one-disk-systems [non default ZFS ]


There is nothing wrong with single-disk ZFS.


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## covacat (Jan 11, 2022)

the ultimate level an OS installer can reach












						Installing NetBSD 5.0: Screenshots
					

The NetBSD Project recently released NetBSD 5.0, the 13th major release of its Unix operating system. If you are not familiar with the BSD mentality, it's a back-to-basics approach. Those familiar with Unix environments will find themselves right at home.




					www.zdnet.com


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## ralphbsz (Jan 11, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> An installer that's more capable and more user-friendly would broaden the base.



How long does it take to install an OS? Anywhere between 10 minutes and a weekend (the latter if you include setting up lots of things, and doing customization). Let's say that the automated part of the (the installer run) is on average an hour (I might be wrong by a factor of two, but that's not important).

How long does one use an OS? If it is good, for years. During those years, you have to learn to be good at using and/or administering it. I would bet that I have spend hundreds of hours administering my *BSD server systems, and thousands of hours using them (meaning: logged in, and doing stuff that requires reasonable knowledge of the OS and its applications, not just a web browser, which I don't have on my *BSD systems anyway).

Putting effort into optimizing the first hour seems very foolish to me. Instead the FreeBSD community should invest effort into making the OS more useful and usable.

Yes, I know there are lots of people who do "distro hopping", and install a different OS flavor every few hours. Good for them. I don't think attracting them into the user base has any positive effect, only a negative one: more dumb questions from newbies, in particular newbies with an attitude, and the expectation that things work like Linux.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 11, 2022)

covacat said:


> ultimate



The year in which Windows 7 was amongst the top Google searches. Imagine things moving on ;-)



Brian546 said:


> … SERVER … the right people.



How unfortunate for everyone that your vetting process failed to exclude people like me.



ralphbsz said:


> dumb questions from newbies,



Whoa.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 11, 2022)

ralphbsz Kudos. Exactly what I would have said.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 11, 2022)

jb_fvwm2 said:


> … grow the FreeBSD userbase?



… that, or discourage newcomers? 

Decisions, decisions …


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## shkhln (Jan 12, 2022)

I remember the most scary thing about FreeBSD and various Linux installer(s) for me as a newbie back in the day was always partition layout, specifically the part where one is supposed to select the root filesystem size and so on. The usual advice here is "it depends on what packages you want to install", which is incredibly unhelpful to new users, who have no reference point here at all. The lack of the graphical installer UI, on the other hand, I didn't even notice. (Maybe because I'm somewhat familiar with typical DOS TUI interfaces, e. g. Norton Commander or Turbo Pascal? That must be it.)

Anyway, FreeBSD is not getting a graphical installer, because it lacks a graphical interface (in the base system) in the first place. It wouldn't be self-contained.


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## shkhln (Jan 12, 2022)

Oh, and your obligatory reminder: while it's obviously possible to use Unix (which FreeBSD arguably is) without hardcore CS skills, at least some C programming knowledge is the _minimum_ bar for being comfortable with it. It never was intended to be usable by just anyone.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 12, 2022)

"FreeBSD is a professional operating system for professionals and computer enthusiasts" as someone once said.


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## bsduck (Jan 12, 2022)

I have to agree on this: graphical or not doesn't make a big difference. I used graphical installers that were more confusing and not any more convenient than bsdinstall. Which doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement in it.



shkhln said:


> at least some C programming knowledge is the _minimum_ bar for being comfortable with it


What? No. I have no clue of C, and I'm perfectly comfortable with what I do. So are lots of users.


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## shkhln (Jan 12, 2022)

bsduck said:


> What? No. I have no clue of C, and I'm perfectly comfortable with what I do. So are lots of users.


You never had to fix compilation errors? Use tracing tools? Read the source code to check whether a particular piece of code is present in a certain branch? Diagnose a program crash? I don't mean you need to be a professional programmer, what I mean is that you need just enough code literacy to do the basic tracing/debugging/read-the-docs stuff. You'll have to eventually learn this even if you don't intend to, there is no other way.


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## bsduck (Jan 12, 2022)

shkhln said:


> You'll have to eventually learn this even if you don't intend to, there is no other way.


Maybe, we'll see. I've been using FreeBSD-powered machines almost daily for a few years and never felt that need as of now


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## chungy (Jan 12, 2022)

Totally disagree on the C programming sentiment. To be a regular user of the major Unix OSes (FreeBSD and Linux, at least), you really don't need any programming skills, just a little bit of common sense for reading the manuals.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 12, 2022)

FreeBSD supports applications for desktop, server, appliance, and embedded environments.



drhowarddrfine said:


> … I've said it multiple times and I even have it in my signature. *FreeBSD is a professional operating system for professionals. … *Being popular among the highly proficient is good, and it also brings in enthusiasts who add value and contribute, but it also drags in the amateurs who only want to play their games. …



So _what_ if someone plays a game in a desktop environment?

So _what_ if someone is an amateur?

How fortunate, for the lowly, that snobbishness and exclusivity are not the norm. To anyone who doesn't like the inclusivity and positivity of my new signature, which includes links to the FreeBSD site: tough titty  and for our further amusement – under the heading of *Advocacy* – this is amongst the stated reasons for choosing FreeBSD:

Working Sound​– wow! Will this pleasure _never end_?​


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## shkhln (Jan 12, 2022)

chungy said:


> Totally disagree on the C programming sentiment. To be a regular user of the major Unix OSes (FreeBSD and Linux, at least), you really don't need any programming skills, just a little bit of common sense for reading the manuals.


Well, that kind of assumes there is documentation other than syscall/libc man pages and source code comments (and McKusick's book). More often than not, there isn't any. Virtual memory, discussed in a recent thread, is a good example of something that not really approachable without some programming knowledge (high level picture should be easy enough to explain, but details definitely aren't). Yet you need to be aware of it to correctly interpret SIZE/RES columns in the `top` output.


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## ralphbsz (Jan 12, 2022)

shkhln said:


> ... at least some C programming knowledge is the _minimum_ bar for being comfortable with it.






chungy said:


> To be a regular user of the major Unix OSes (FreeBSD and Linux, at least), you really don't need any programming skills, just a little bit of common sense for reading the manuals.



I think the truth is somewhere in between. No, you don't need to have heavy programming skills to use it. But you need a little bit. For example, just to be able to reason what happens if you do "rm" and the first file in the directory is called "-R", you need to think a little bit about how computers do thing, about steps taken by a program, about what an list (of arguments) is, and so on. No, no you don't need to be able to do binary arithmetic and be able to recite the differences between a pointer, array and reference in C++. And if you want to use tools like sort, join, awk, sed, you need some programming skills ... an awk script is actually a program, in a language that somewhat resembles C.

On the other hand, you don't need to do coding to use it. As an example: Professionally, I'm a software engineer, which includes kernel work and file systems. For the last ~15 years, I've used various *BSD flavors as the main server in my house. I do a lot of tinkering, tuning and configuration in it. Yet I have not compiled a custom kernel on FreeBSD ever (on OpenBSD I used to do it), and I have never looked at the kernel source code in any detail. No, I don't need to read the C code (or code in any other language) to successfully use FreeBSD.



drhowarddrfine said:


> "FreeBSD is a professional operating system for professionals and computer enthusiasts" as someone once said.



And here I have to agree with grahamperrin: You can also be an amateur. But the important thing about FreeBSD is this: It is a system that will delight both computing professionals and enthusiastic amateurs. When using Linux/HP-UX/AIX/Solaris, I frequently have to prevent myself from gagging, because I look at how clumsily things are done. They are a mix of random hack by a drunk college student, an uninterested engineer just putting in his hours and delivering the MinimumViableProduct, or an egotist and nutcase designing software. That is mixed with things that are really well done (like ZFS, which originally came from Solaris, or ext2/3/4). When using FreeBSD and in particular OpenBSD, I sometimes feel that it would be lovely if more work could be invested in them, but I always have the feeling of using a well-crafted tool that was put together with care by smart people with a common purpose.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 12, 2022)

ralphbsz I used to say "serious amateur" but some took exception to that word so I changed it to "enthusiast". Some took exception to that, too, so, in my sig, I dropped it altogether.

grahamperrin My whole point is that so many people on some forums like reddit, whose only reason to own a computer is to play games, think FreeBSD is just like Linux or Windows, then complain when it isn't. I'd bet that's 90% of them over there while I'd bet near 100% of the people here either don't play games on FreeBSD or it's not their sole reason for using it. I'd also bet that near 100% use it for their interest in computing, networking and operating systems alone.

I would far prefer a computer engineer switch to FreeBSD who wants to use it for work and contribution than a Linux gamer who only wants to play Minecraft.


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## hruodr (Jan 12, 2022)

SirDice said:


> The goal is to provide the user with a choice, not to force them into some particular configuration.


There should be a goal, a clear defined goal. That is all. Users and developers that like the goal, are welcome. Other are also welcome as long as they do not disturb or try to force other goals. Otherwise we would have only mediocre systems.


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## Beastie7 (Jan 12, 2022)

I just want working modern WiFi. that's all. I don't know why this area receives the least amount of attention; considering our TCP/IP stack is second to none.


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jan 12, 2022)

shkhln said:


> You never had to fix compilation errors? Use tracing tools? Read the source code to check whether a particular piece of code is present in a certain branch? Diagnose a program crash? I don't mean you need to be a professional programmer, what I mean is that you need just enough code literacy to do the basic tracing/debugging/read-the-docs stuff. You'll have to eventually learn this even if you don't intend to, there is no other way.


Nope. I know how to write several different markup languages but that doesn't make me a programmer. Neither does it hamper my usage of FreeBSD in the slightest.



shkhln said:


> I remember the most scary thing about FreeBSD and various Linux installer(s) for me as a newbie back in the day was always partition layout, specifically the part where one is supposed to select the root filesystem size and so on. The usual advice here is "it depends on what packages you want to install", which is incredibly unhelpful to new users, who have no reference point here at all. The lack of the graphical installer UI, on the other hand, I didn't even notice.


The text installer intimidated me and seemed too esoteric for my skill level at the time. Which it was. I would have been lost at the command line as what to do next if I did get it installed.

Then in 2005 I found PC-BSD. Which had a graphic installer, got me to the desktop and I became a beta tester.

In 2012 I switched to vanilla FreeBSD but still had never installed it from scratch. It wasn't till I got here and used a Tutorial somebody else had written that I installed it from scratch for the first time. It took me another 3 years to figure out how to set /etc/alias so I could get my daily security updates.

The only thing I learned from my time with PC-BSD that I didn't teach myself was not to ask questions. Now I don't have to.

I've watched people new to FreeBSD closely since posting my beginners Turtorial in 2017 and it's got over 100k views here. The infulx of people new to FreeBSD has picked up recently. A portion of the Linux userbase coming to the opinion Debian is too hard to run and the rest that FreeBSD wasn't so hard to run after all. 

That from watching comments at DistroWatch, were I occasionally put my tummb on that scale.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 12, 2022)

Beastie7 said:


> I just want working modern WiFi. that's all. I don't why this area receives the least amount of attention; considering our TCP/IP stack is second to none.



Well...actually....there is Foundation funding to someone who is working on the latest and great high speed wifi right now. I don't know where he is with it but he's going full bore at it.


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## Hakaba (Jan 12, 2022)

The text installer is for me very clear and convenient.
If a text configurator will exist with the detail level of the installer, I will be happy.
I mean there is a lot of tools to configure and I forgot how to change colour or enable trackpad capabilities or ...
So each time I reinstall from scratch (or I change the computer) I feel lost and read obscure step by step guide.
Yesterday, the WiFi stop working. I rediscover 'supplicant'. This morning I start to use `poudriere` for my server for the first time. I just copy/past cli command (as my goal is not `poudriere`).

For jails, I use it with ezjail and iocage years before learning how jail work and stop using 'manager'.

For me the install is the easiest step.


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## tanis (Jan 12, 2022)

I like FreeBSD.

I can install it using an USB thumbdrive in less then 10 minutes. Switched offer back in 2017, because I felt more an more out of touch with Fedora which I had been using at that time for almost 10 years, before that LinuxFromScratch for almost another decade. What I really love about FreeBSD is the documentation, how everything fits so well together and is separate on the same time. There is actually a structure and not a lot of moving parts. So when I adjust something in a place forget about it and come back later a year or two it's still there doing it's job and not the whole ecosystem changed under my feet.

That now git is being used, takes the whole experience to a completely new level. The source is now easy accessable too. 

Did I need to put a lot of effort into finding my way around, looking back, not really, when I came from Linux the idea of having a handbook seemed kind of strange to me because why bother looking something up when my world is constantly changing. In the end I always ended up reading the handbook just to discover that it actually worked what had been written there. I didn't need to spend hours an hours searching the internet for a recipe which by the time I found it had already been out of date. So I started investing money in books like Absolute FreeBSD and read them, it's just awesome. Latest example, I wanted to use plex for my "Memories", but I wanted it separate, I somehow remembered jails, I took the book Absolute FreeBSD read a few pages, then I became hesitant because it had been a long day and I didn't wanted to spend another two to three hours in front of my laptop, but I tried it anyway. Setting up the jail including the installation of plex and rclone, putting my data into the cloud encrypted using rclone took all in all just 30 minutes! 30 minutes, the whole experience felt to me like I had invented the wheel, discovered fire and went to the moon and back. 

FreeBSD lets me get stuff done, which is something I really missed! <3


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## Beastie7 (Jan 13, 2022)

One thing the Arch guys are beating us at is curated tutorials for third party applications. A "Ports User Handbook" or something would certainly help attract users IMO. People like their hands held until they feel safe leaving the nest.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 13, 2022)

Beastie7 said:


> WiFi



In no particular order, please see:









						Technology Roadmap
					

https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/technology-roadmap/  Enjoy.




					forums.freebsd.org
				




2021 in Review: Software Development | FreeBSD Foundation

WiFi/Iwlwifi - FreeBSD Wiki



> _*Will be updated in the next 36 hours;  please coordinate with bz who is doing offline edits.*_



… those hours have passed, I have no complaint (I empathise with the pain).

freebsd-wireless: Discussions of 802.11 stack, tools device driver development: List of Folders

FreeBSD Bugzilla e.g. <https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/query.cgi?format=specific> (I reported a kernel panic around three hours ago).


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## shkhln (Jan 13, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> I do *not* find people in the FreeBSD subreddit bitching repeatedly, inappropriately, about the inferiority of people in FreeBSD Forums.


For the record, I actually believe almost everyone can learn some _basic_ programming skills (and this operating system implicitly assumes so by installing libc documentation and a compiler for you with no opt-out). If people think this is an insult, that's on them.


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## kpedersen (Jan 13, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> the /r/freebsd FreeBSD Community is remarkable for its ability to self-moderate.


Really? I only just came across this thread and was frankly quite appalled (and weirdly amused) by it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/ll0oku/will_freebsd_13_support_broadcom_wifi_on_the_rpi/

Some iconic quotes; redacted for everyone's pleasure:



> No? Then **** you, I'm over these kind of non-answers.





> I was ASKING what the CURRENT STATE OF THE DRIVER IS, you ignorant ******* **tard





> My complaint is with people like you. People that don't know what the **** they're talking about



Reddit does seem to attract low effort posts from low effort people. Yes, a great place to "dumb down and relax" which everyone does need to do but I always recommend doing so *away* from a computer.


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## tingo (Jan 15, 2022)

This thread can you more posts about FreeBSD and less posts about external subjects. Just sayin'.


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## Hakaba (Jan 15, 2022)

IMHO, if the goal is growing the base, the first step is visibility.


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## mfjurbala (Jan 15, 2022)

Out of shear coincidence I posted a poll on Reddit bringing up this exact topic of visibility. It's like I could sense it.  I had a hard time getting my point across and rambled a bit but it's producing some funny and opinionated content. 

Come join me at the bottom of the barrel


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## Deleted member 30996 (Jan 15, 2022)

CoolHwhipMike said:


> ...it's producing some funny and opinionated content.


This was yours:


> *OP*
> Beastie need to go back to Hell where he came from.



Didn't you know we're all Devil worshipers?


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 15, 2022)

CoolHwhipMike said:


> Come join me at the bottom of the barrel



Long ago, I was involved with a company that made the very first CT scanners. I was sent to meet with doctors in New York. For reasons I don't recall, we had to access the scanning room through a back door that went through an attached insane asylum. I was advised to be aware of where I was as some of the patients would scream things at us as we walked by. That's what I'm reminded of whenever I would visit reddit in the past and a reason I would never visit now.

Never use reddit as a reference for anything. It's the dwelling of kids, lids and space cadets (an old ham radio reference).



Hakaba said:


> the first step is visibility.



There is no issue of visibility. Any user of Linux has most likely become aware of the BSDs. I'm pretty sure that IBM is not concerned with visibility of their OSes with the gaming community. I'm also sure WhatsApp, Sony and Netflix aren't concerned with FreeBSD's visibility with mom, pop and their kids, either.


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## Fuzzbox (Jan 15, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> There is no issue of visibility. Any user of Linux has most likely become aware of the BSDs.



Hi,

I was a long time Linux user. And I know about FreeBSD existence since 1999. But the only opinion I had about it was the failed installation attempt that I did in 2000 or 2001. During 20 years, Linux fulfilled my needs. I only switched because I was tired of Linux and its misguided ways.

Considering how good is my FreeBSD experience since april 2021, I regret that no visible advocacy influenced my choice sooner.


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## Hakaba (Jan 15, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> There is no issue of visibility.


I ask my colleague why they do not use FreeBSD but Linux.
Some of them never ear about FreeBSD. Others thinks that there is few software compatible with FreeBSD (and do not know that KDE, Firefox or Gimp works in FreeBSD).
There is a legend about a bad licence that is not really free... (I think GNU win the battle of argue about what a free software is. And there is not enough visibility about the FreeBSD answer ?)
Only one try the version 6 or 7 and stopped for reason that he do not remember.

So yes, FreeBSD is known by very few people.


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## kpedersen (Jan 15, 2022)

Fuzzbox said:


> Considering how good is my FreeBSD experience since april 2021, I regret that no visible advocacy influenced my choice sooner.





Hakaba said:


> I ask my colleague why they do not use FreeBSD but Linux.



You guys are likely here now because Linux is messing up. How do we know whether all the "userfriendlyness" and advocracy (and other timewasting, developer draining crap) isn't contributing to that? If anything perhaps FreeBSD should do the opposite to Linux and actively hide from the typical non-technical computer user?

Obviously there will be a middle ground. But chasing Ubuntu chasing Windows is likely not the way to go. Arguably I look at some of the most popular Linux distros (Debian and Arch Linux) and see that i.e not providing a desktop environment in the standard install is actually fairly well received.

No matter how easy and inviting anyone makes Linux, no matter how fun and friendly you make FreeBSD, consumer products like Windows and macOS will *always* win because they have unlimited marketing budgets to entice the plebs. The power-user and developer market is the only ones that should be targetted and these kinds of users are more than capable of learning and doing things the correct UNIXy way (the only OS design that has really survived long).

TLDR; The advocracy page states "focused on building the best possible system". And making something easy and well known to unknowledgable people is often 100% mutually exclusive to that goal.


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## Fuzzbox (Jan 15, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> You guys are likely here now because Linux is messing up. How do we know whether all the "userfriendlyness" and advocracy (and other timewasting, developer draining crap) isn't contributing to that? If anything perhaps FreeBSD should do the opposite to Linux and actively hide from the typical non-technical computer user?


Imho, bad choices in the Linux world are business-driven, nothing else. But indeed, becoming mainstream exposes you to all kind of influences and conflicting interests.



kpedersen said:


> Obviously there will be a middle ground. But chasing Ubuntu chasing Windows is likely not the way to go. Arguably I look at some of the most popular Linux distros (Debian and Arch Linux) and see that i.e not providing a desktop environment in the standard install is actually fairly well received.


Yep. That's why in my mind advocacy does not mean changing anything. It just means finding ways to promote FreeBSD strengths and break misconceptions about it.


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## Brian546 (Jan 15, 2022)

I settled on FreeBSD 5.1 years ago after realizing Red Hat (not RHEL) was too bloated. A desktop or gui tools also have never been necessary for me. Outside of FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD I know that other new ones have shown up over the years. Apologies for not understanding anything about them, but wasn’t this tried with one of them? I could have sworn that I read about PCBSD, or maybe Dragonfly BSD and the concept sounded to me like it was just going to be another Ubuntu. At any rate, I’m glad FreeBSD is keeping GUIs as far away from the base system as possible and hopefully it will stay that way.


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## mfjurbala (Jan 15, 2022)

Trihexagonal said:


> This was yours:
> 
> 
> Didn't you know we're all Devil worshipers?


Figures, I find an operating systems I like and I end up in a satanic cult.


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## mfjurbala (Jan 15, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Never use reddit as a reference for anything. It's the dwelling of kids


I'd say I am a kid, but 31 is starting to feel pretty old. I wake up and I'm achy and my bones crack.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 15, 2022)

Hakaba said:


> Some of them never ear about FreeBSD. *Others thinks*...





Hakaba said:


> So yes, FreeBSD is known by very few people.



You apparently know quite a few who do. But who are these people? My background was embedded systems first, then Unix. Everyone I worked with knew about BSD but none of them were gamers or kids or hobbyists.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 15, 2022)

Brian546 said:


> … FreeBSD is keeping GUIs as far away from the base system as possible and hopefully it will stay that way.



True, and I agree in that FreeBSD is well-defined; it can be a *good* basis for distributions that include desktop environments.

In parallel: part of the technology roadmap of the Foundation is, naturally, to make things better for desktop *and laptop* end users.

*Rewind to 2018*, the Foundation's marketing of _Everyday FreeBSD_, the order in which use cases were presented – *personal workstations first and foremost*:






Subtle. The phrase _personal workstation_ implies desktops and notebooks (laptops, if you prefer) however the authors were, I imagine, careful to: 

*not* use the word _laptop_
not create false expectations.
*Fast-forward to 2022*, it should be not too long until FreeBSD 13.1-RELEASE provides: 

a *more than good* basis for desktop environments (with or without a distro) on *reasonably modern* computers, including laptops with previously non-supported Wi-Fi hardware.









						FreeBSD release engineering
					

The FreeBSD Project | FreeBSD Release Engineering   13.1-RELEASE estimated some time in early 2022 at .   for an official release schedule does not yet exist.    release schedule is that there's a release every 6 months. FreeBSD 12.3 is up next, that will be released some time in December...




					forums.freebsd.org
				












						Technology Roadmap
					

https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/technology-roadmap/  Enjoy.




					forums.freebsd.org
				




From the roadmap:


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## kpedersen (Jan 15, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> In parallel: part of the technology roadmap of the Foundation is, naturally, to make things better for desktop *and laptop* end users.


Indeed, they clearly used the word *workstation*. This is almost a declaration that they didn't want to faff with consumer desktops either really. Arguably a laptop can be a workstation but it certainly doesn't include "nice beginner friendly fun".


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## jbo (Jan 15, 2022)

After using FreeBSD many years as a server OS pretty much everywhere I could I started using FreeBSD as a desktop OS a couple of months ago. I wouldn't want to miss that anymore.

Personally, I think it's a pretty good decision of the FreeBSD Foundation to focus on desktop/workstation/"mobile" usage. I like it!


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## chungy (Jan 15, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> Arguably I look at some of the most popular Linux distros (Debian and Arch Linux) and see that i.e not providing a desktop environment in the standard install is actually fairly well received.



Debian's installer allows the option to install a desktop environment beyond the base install. FreeBSD's DVD image already includes a lot of packages on-disc that could make this possible, but the installer is lacking the nice way to automatically handle it. Perhaps there's room for giving an option to go beyond the base FreeBSD install within the installer.


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## kpedersen (Jan 15, 2022)

chungy said:


> Debian's installer allows the option to install a desktop environment beyond the base install. FreeBSD's DVD image already includes a lot of packages on-disc that could make this possible, but the installer is lacking the nice way to automatically handle it. Perhaps there's room for giving an option to go beyond the base FreeBSD install within the installer.


In the past the FreeBSD installer did allow the user to install arbitrary ports. They decided to get rid of that in the move from sysinstall to bsdinstall.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 15, 2022)

There are too many desktop things and personal choices but each has their own installation instructions on their web site, in the port or package, and can be found in countless tutorials in some cases. I don't think the Handbook should be concerned with such things other than as a guide to where to find such instructions.


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## Zwie (Jan 15, 2022)

What I like about Arch Linux is their great wiki.
Debian's wiki is half as good and then comes all the other distribution wikis with Fedora's somewhere at the lowest point.

FreeBSD's wiki is... in a testing phase?

See the difference in searching a simple topic on Arch Linux wiki:





						Search results for "Xorg" - ArchWiki
					






					wiki.archlinux.org
				



And on FreeBSDs wiki:





						Full Text Search: "Xorg" - FreeBSD Wiki
					

joe window manager



					wiki.freebsd.org


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 16, 2022)

Welcome to FreeBSD forums. 



Zwie said:


> FreeBSD's wiki is... in a testing phase?
> 
> See the difference in searching a simple topic on Arch Linux wiki:



The underlying technologies are very different.

<https://wiki.freebsd.org/FrontPage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=Xorg&titlesearch=Titles> might be a more realistic representation of what can be found with MoinMoin _without_ resorting to full-text search.

I don't know about ArchWiki, but generally: wiki editing can be *horribly* frustrating; MoinMoin is no exception – note, the expression of pain.

I did some work on Graphics a couple of months ago. More recently, this (partial diff (fourteen versions)) because it was part of the process that led to:









						FreeBSD Foundation Soliciting Project Proposals
					

Hello everyone,  The call for proposals has been sent out.  -- Joe (with Foundation hat on)




					forums.freebsd.org
				




FreeBSD Documentation Project | The FreeBSD Project refers to the current list of projects – the wiki is used for the list, but the wiki itself is not an FDP project.

I can't find what's required in FreeBSD Discord :-( but if I recall correctly, there's an intention to retire (archive, whatever) a variety of wiki pages.


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## Hakaba (Jan 16, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> You guys are likely here now because Linux is messing up.


Absolutely not. Nice try.


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## kpedersen (Jan 16, 2022)

Hakaba said:


> Absolutely not. Nice try.


Oh really? I personally am very happy to state "I am here because Linux is a mess"


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## Menelkir (Jan 16, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> You guys are likely here now because Linux is messing up.


Actually is possible to make a linux distribution without a mess, but how much time you have available for fixing that? Not to mention, you'll have to take care of updates and fix it accordingly to your "unmess". Meanwhile, you can use FreeBSD that have a group effort for that.


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## Hakaba (Jan 16, 2022)

drhowarddrfine said:


> You apparently know quite a few who do. But who are these people? My background was embedded systems first, then Unix. Everyone I worked with knew about BSD but none of them were gamers or kids or hobbyists.


I think you have a confirmation bias (I am not young, Linux rebel or gamerz...). I ask engineers that work in network, website and products. I ask "products owners', I ask UI/UX peoples. And as I an a freelancer, I ask about FreeBSD in more than one company.
And when I was in my high school (including my last year in a stranger university) I never hear FreeBSD. NEVER.
I discover FreeBSD when Apple "switch" from 'Mac OS Classic' to 'Mac OS X'. And because I am curious by nature, I try it, learn a lot, discover this nice forum and so on.
And my point is not "We need to increase the base user". I never propose FreeBSD to my father... But if you want to increase the base users, the best way is not to find lacks into the product, but increase curious people that do not ear about it.


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## Hakaba (Jan 16, 2022)

kpedersen said:


> Oh really? I personally am very happy to state "I am here because Linux is a mess"


I am here because I ear about FreeBSD when Apple use Mac OS X. I test it, use it in my personal server and install it on my laptop 10 year after.
I use Linux before FreeBSD, but I migrate from Linux to Mac OS X ( I was a mac OS Classic user before Linux)
Today, I use Mac OS X and FreeBSD. I never try Windows and the last Linux XP is when Apple release Mac OS X.2
But I have to work with Docker, bash and other things for my job.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 16, 2022)

Hakaba That's pretty much my point. I wouldn't expect high schoolers to have much knowledge about highly technical areas. That you imply you know engineers in "network, website and products owners" who aren't aware of FreeBSD, I question the quality of those engineers.


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## Zwie (Jan 16, 2022)

grahamperrin said:


> Welcome to FreeBSD forums.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you. You know, the spirit I felt in using FreeBSD the first time (with some knowledge from Linux) was like to discover a new meal I never ate before and it is tasting really good.

As for the topic about underlying technology the FreeBSD wiki is using: It does not interest a new user while using the FreeBSD wiki.
Is it working or not is the first intention a new user does have.
Should a new user think: "Oh, it is not working as great as the wiki of anothers distribution I like, so they probably have too much work to do or they are not as good as them - I will try to consider that they do not have a good working wiki because I am a new user....."

A new user wants (if he is hesitated not to disturb and waste the time of other in asking where is the config file of the application XY) a simple wiki, nothing fancy, text only to search with a browser's search function and to find quickly find the wiki site which is handling the keyword the user is searching at most, would be enough to have a good starting point. And these users are probably the ones you want.
Users which integrates in the community nicely.

You state, that maybe I should try searching for title's, not text.


			Title Search: "Xorg" - FreeBSD Wiki
		

That is a mess, too.
For a brief moment, try to compare FreeBSDs wiki with the wiki of Arch Linux, to mess with the best (about the wiki topic).
Try to find five topics you wanna handle in your system, even if you don't do. But you know the best what topics are difficult and needs to reread now and then. In example: samba, Xorg, dnsmasq, Network managers, List of recommended applications, Bios update, Installation guide, ...
Just for the configuration part of an OS like FreeBSD - what a new user wants - not for development.

I tried that and the search results are a mess in FreeBSDs wiki.
Search in a search machine of your choice for: "wiki.freebsd.org howto install"
Search again with the words: "wiki.archlinux.org howto install"
See the difference in user-friendlyness?
FreeBSDs wiki is not using keywords it seems, neither topics focusing on the point.

Other things FreeBSD can avoid to not make the same mistakes, like use entirely systemD because "everyone else do"...
SystemD is now trying to get into the kernel and that's my signal to look for alternatives. Even if Linux worked for me all the years. But now it seems corruption and profit is directing the decision makers of most big distributions of Linux.

If FreeBSDs wiki does not work the way it should be intentionally, maybe build up another one and exchange them if it is working the way the users like? For the beginning it could be plain english and if the user base grows, helpful users will translate the wiki sites in different languages with the hint, always to prefer to use the english version because it is the most up to date wiki site about a topic.

I know it is work. But the fundament needs always to be setup the best way for others to build up and help.
Currently (for me it seems), to work for the FreeBSD wiki would be a hell of a work. (*tehehe* You see the coincidence?  ) It is simpler to start over. The way of the least resistance and most healthy and time saving way for the foreseeable future (while looking around if this way was made up on purpose by others). Sounds suspicious? It is!

And FreeBSD Discord? ...really? A closed source, third party, unsecured way of communicating to each other, because mostly gamers are using Discord, communication platform? Well, nothing to complain - it is time of FreeBSDler spending their time.
Then they probably also using the third party platform telegram? Yep. Good to know. Is it official? I do not know. The site freebsd.org does not offer any information about this.
Does FreeBSD have a matrix channel? Searching "FreeBSD matrix channel" does not seem so.
Does FreeBSD have at least an IRC channel? Yep. First search entry. Maybe because it is the "oldest" realtime communication method. Even changed from freenode (I think) to libera.chat. Yay.
And - it - is - hellish - official! -> https://wiki.freebsd.org/IRC/Channels


As you can see, FreeBSD's public relations is not clean and not easy to use.


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## kpedersen (Jan 19, 2022)

Zwie said:


> As you can see, FreeBSD's public relations is not clean and not easy to use.


You missed off FreeBSD's primary communication medium. Mailing lists!


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## shkhln (Jan 19, 2022)

Zwie said:


> And FreeBSD Discord? ...really? A closed source, third party, unsecured way of communicating to each other


Really. Except for the insecure bit.



Zwie said:


> Then they probably also using the third party platform telegram? Yep. Good to know. Is it official?


That one is not official. (Whatever it is.)



Zwie said:


> Does FreeBSD have a matrix channel?


No.



Zwie said:


> As you can see, FreeBSD's public relations is not clean and not easy to use.


FreeBSD doesn't have public relations. The foundation does, but they are arguably aren't good at it.


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## shkhln (Jan 19, 2022)

That reminds me, one of my pet peeves with Ubuntu (a somewhat popular Linux distribution) is that their bug tracker (Launchpad) doesn't have labels for developer accounts. Makes it quite annoying to read long issue threads. Just so you know what an actual mess looks like.


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 21, 2022)

Zwie said:


> … 𣀦If FreeBSDs wiki does not work the way it should be intentionally, maybe build up another one and exchange them if it is working the way the users like? For the beginning it could be plain english and if the user base grows, helpful users will translate the wiki sites in different languages with the hint, always to prefer to use the english version because it is the most up to date wiki site about a topic.
> 
> I know it is work. But the fundament needs always to be setup the best way for others to build up and help.
> Currently (for me it seems), to work for the FreeBSD wiki would be a hell of a work. …



I like the idea, however I think there's greater encouragement to keep things up-to-date in the `docs.freebsd.org` area. Pages include the invitation: 

Edit this page​
Here's a page that needs attention: 




the question ends "What about Journaled soft updates?"
the answer does *nothing* to explain soft update journaling
the answer mentions a delay of up to thirty seconds before data is written to disk (the norm for UFS)
expert test results suggest that the delay may be much greater.









						FreeBSD workflow working group
					

FYI:   https://gitlab.com/bsdimp/freebsd-workflow  Pleasantly exciting:    …  – Do we move to something else hosted elsewhere?  GitHub has code review on its pull requests GitLab has code review for its modification requests  𠉧…   I don't know enough about GitLab, although I'm a user...




					forums.freebsd.org


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## grahamperrin@ (Jan 29, 2022)

Impact Reports | FreeBSD Foundation

The 2021 report is a good overview of things. From the Executive Director's message, with added emphasis: 



> … How do we know where to step in? We watch market trends, stay on top of discussions happening in various mailing lists and irc channels, and listen to you, the users, by surveying the community over social media and on mailing lists. We also meet with various commercial users to understand how they are using FreeBSD and what challenges they may face.
> 
> … We also started collecting *data, to help show the growth of FreeBSD* as we move forward.


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