# Quite a beginner's questions



## WojAbuk (Apr 29, 2021)

Hi, sorry for the linguistic mistakes. English is my second language. At the moment I am using Linux. I want to try BSD because of: the lack of systemd (it does not seem that the most popular distributions will impose something similar on me), supposedly a better firewall and I was interested in the HAMMER2 filesystem (I know that this is DragonFlyBDS).
I don't know which distribution to choose:
-FreeBSD seems to have the best documentation.
-OpenBSD is said to be the safest distribution.
-DragonFlyBDS seems interesting to me.
From the installation description to BSD installation that BSD needs swap memory. Which seems strange to me, because in Linux SSD disks and not using hibernation is not recommended to use swap memory.
I have no idea which network plugs I should use on FreeBSD, I guess there are 3 and they all seem perfect. When I learn to use one, I will probably stay with it until the end of my adventure with BSD.
There are no questions in the sim, but you can see my doubts, I hope you will help me resolve them.


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## SirDice (Apr 29, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> I don't know which distribution to choose:


What do you think the answer is going to be? I mean, if you go to a beer brewery and ask if you should drink beer or wine, what do you think they'll answer?

Set up a couple of VMs and try them all. See which one _you_ like.


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## tuxador (Apr 29, 2021)

FreeBSD + ZFS and you will be happy! 
What you said about swap is the same as in gnu/linux.


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## ccammack (Apr 29, 2021)

If you want to use HAMMER2 then you already know what to try first.

Otherwise, try FreeBSD first and then try the others once you understand your requirements better. This is no different than in Linux: pick one, then adjust.

Always use a VM when trying something new to avoid damaging a working system if it concerns you.

Which BSD system choose?

Why FreeBSD has three firewalls?
What is your favorite firewall?
Help with thesis. Please vote for your firewall!

This and this are step-by-step examples for desktop installs.


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## zirias@ (Apr 29, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> I want to try BSD because of: the lack of systemd


This is _one_ thing that makes people unhappy with Linux. Chances are you might find other things you like better in a BSD system, but it depends very much on your personal preferences. Just for reference, here's my take on "why FreeBSD": http://sekrit.de/webdocs/freebsd/advocacy.html


WojAbuk said:


> supposedly a better firewall


FreeBSD supports three implementations. "Better" is up to you to decide, I personally like "pf" (which originates from OpenBSD).


WojAbuk said:


> I was interested in the HAMMER2 filesystem


If you want THAT, it'll be DragonflyBSD. But have a look at ZFS, you might be happy with it 


WojAbuk said:


> in Linux SSD disks and not using hibernation is not recommended to use swap memory.


I don't know where you got _that_ from. Having _some_ swap space is a good idea for any OS, to handle temporary shortage of physical RAM well.


WojAbuk said:


> I have no idea which network plugs I should use on FreeBSD, I guess there are 3 and they all seem perfect. When I learn to use one, I will probably stay with it until the end of my adventure with BSD.


Please explain what you mean by "network plugs" here? I don't understand…


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## BostonBSD (Apr 29, 2021)

Well....if you already know linux and the only problem is systemd, you may find a non systemd linux distro to be more appealing. 

However, the Hammer2 and ZFS filesystems are definitely worth checking out.

OpenBSD is very secure, however, it is rather circumspect in regard toward performance.

FreeBSD has ZFS, PF, and does not have systemd.  Its performance appears to match if not exceed the most popular linux variants, so far as I am aware.

DragonFlyBSD is a fork of FreeBSD 4.8 and has the Hammer2 filesystem, which was a major draw before ZFS became available for FreeBSD.  The other major difference is that they rewrote much of the kernel subsystems after the fork.  It handles nearly the same as FreeBSD, so far as I can tell, however, they need more developers.


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## WojAbuk (Apr 29, 2021)

SirDice said:


> What do you think the answer is going to be? I mean, if you go to a beer brewery and ask if you should drink beer or wine, what do you think they'll answer?
> 
> Set up a couple of VMs and try them all. See which one _you_ like.


Probably a beer, and I expect you to recommend FreeBSD, but recommending Manjaro on the Arch forums, Fedora on the CentOS forums, or the CentOS on the Fedora forums is no wonder. On Polish forms associated with Arch, new users are rather discouraged from Arch.
I found DragonFlyBSD and FreeBSD in a similar relationship to the Linux distributions listed above.


Zirias said:


> If you want THAT, it'll be DragonflyBSD. But have a look at ZFS, you might be happy with it


Does ZFS work better on FreeBSD than on Linux? On Linux, it was definitely not the best filesystem.


Zirias said:


> Please explain what you mean by "network plugs" here? I don't understand…


I mean the firewall. These words sound similar in Polish.


BostonBSD said:


> Well....if you already know linux and the only problem is systemd, you may find a non systemd linux distro to be more appealing.


Of the major distributions, probably only Gentoo has full systemd support. I guess why I don't want to use gentoo is obvious.
I am an IT specialist (translating from a translator) and it seems to me that it is a matter of time until someone tells me to configure a firewall on BSD, so I need to know some BSD distribution.


BostonBSD said:


> DragonFlyBSD is a fork of FreeBSD 4.8 and has the Hammer2 filesystem, which was a major draw before ZFS became available for FreeBSD.  It handles nearly the same as FreeBSD, so far as I can tell, however, they need more developers.


Can you write it differently without the word draw? The translation I know does not fits me to the context.


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## Deleted member 67440 (Apr 29, 2021)

I use all three, for different reasons.

I'd leave DragonFly alone: its filesystem is anything but stable and reliable. Good in theory, but who would trust in a system other than rock solid?

OpenBSD: leave it alone for similar reason (archaic filesystem), if you really does not need a webserver like this https://corsa.francocorbelli.it/

FreeBSD represents, in my opinion, a good compromise.

Although I must say that the acceleration in the substantial changes make me doubt, or rather wait, about the actual evolution.

Certainly I do not think that 13 is ready to be used (with its OpenZFS which will require at least a couple of years of running in. At least): much better 11.

If, on the other hand, you use it for leisure ... have fun with the latest news!


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## bsduck (Apr 29, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> I don't know which distribution to choose


It depends what you expect of your operating system. Which features are important to you, which software do you want to run, on what kind of hardware?

OpenBSD = maximal security over everything else, including compatibility and performance. On the same hardware, OpenBSD is much slower than Linux, FreeBSD or DragonFly. It also only supports UFS1, so if you're interested in advanced, copy-on-write filesystems like HAMMER or ZFS, that's probably not what you want. Furthermore, it has less software available, currently 8'752 packages for OpenBSD, compared to 30'370 packages for FreeBSD (and a little less for DragonFly).

DragonFly and FreeBSD are more comparable in terms of performance, and better alternatives to Linux in most usecases in my opinion, but each has its own unique features.

A few reasons I use FreeBSD rather than DragonFly include:
* FreeBSD has binary updates, while you have to rebuild DragonFly kernel+base from source.
* FreeBSD has better graphic drivers and better hardware compatibility in general.
* FreeBSD has better documentation and a much bigger community.
* I prefer ZFS to HAMMER because of portability (you can use ZFS on Linux, NetBSD and Illumos while HAMMER is DragonFly-only) and I also really like the "copies=2" feature.


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## scottro (Apr 29, 2021)

In this case, "draw" means attraction or pull towards.


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## ShelLuser (Apr 29, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> Probably a beer, and I expect you to recommend FreeBSD, but recommending Manjaro on the Arch forums, Fedora on the CentOS forums, or the CentOS on the Fedora forums is no wonder. On Polish forms associated with Arch, new users are rather discouraged from Arch.
> I found DragonFlyBSD and FreeBSD in a similar relationship to the Linux distributions listed above.


The problem is that you're asking for opinions vs. asking which one of your choices might be best suited for a specific task. You simply want to try BSD, name a few variations and then you ask us which one to pick. That's simply something no one can answer, all they can do is give you opinions. Yah, amazingly enough people favor FreeBSD on a FreeBSD forum.

So unless you have a specific task in mind the best thing to do is to find something that best suits you. Always remember: what works for me doesn't have to work for you, and vice versa.



WojAbuk said:


> Does ZFS work better on FreeBSD than on Linux? On Linux, it was definitely not the best filesystem.


Obviously...  ZFS was developed (and implemented) on Sun Solaris and from there on more or less directly ported to FreeBSD, with the help of the original developers. Linux came a long time after that.



WojAbuk said:


> Of the major distributions, probably only Gentoo has full systemd support. I guess why I don't want to use gentoo is obvious.


There's also Devuan, and plenty more. A mere Google search will find 'm.



WojAbuk said:


> I am an IT specialist (translating from a translator) and it seems to me that it is a matter of time until someone tells me to configure a firewall on BSD, so I need to know some BSD distribution.


Well, time to pick one.


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## mtu (Apr 29, 2021)

ShelLuser said:


> There's also Devuan, and plenty more. A mere Google search will find 'm.


Rather offtopic, but relevant to this thread:

Let's face it, non-systemd Linux distros have no future. Much of GNU/Linux userland is being assimilated, and it's only a matter of time until systemd eats into the kernel as well. I, for one, wouldn't install Devuan if I knew I wanted to still be using and updating it in 4 to 5 years' time.

That is not to say that FreeBSD is a perfect "way out". I came to FreeBSD as a systemd refugee in 2017. I've come to love it as a server OS, but with the sorry state of graphical desktop integration and wireless support, I wouldn't consider it for a daily driver laptop.


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## BostonBSD (Apr 29, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> Can you write it differently without the word draw? The translation I know does not fits me to the context.



"DragonFlyBSD is a fork of FreeBSD 4.8 and has the Hammer2 filesystem, which was the primary attraction of DragonFlyBSD.  This happened before ZFS became available for FreeBSD.  It handles nearly the same as FreeBSD, so far as I can tell, however, they need more developers."


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## Sevendogsbsd (Apr 29, 2021)

OP: this may be a moot point, but FreeBSD is not a "distribution" like Linux is considered. It is a complete operating system developed entirely by a single team. The base OS does not include any user software; that is provided by the ports system or by packages, and the software in ports or packages has nothing to do with the FreeBSD core team that develops the OS. Linux is called a "distribution" because a team or a single individual pulls all the parts and pieces together, which came from multiple projects, and distributes them. 

Having said all that, I have used FreeBSD with the default UFS file system (as a desktop) with zero issues, except the occasional package build breakages that occur. I have never used any other BSD variant for more than an hour: either because the installs were problematic, or I had other issues. My use case is different though; installs for a server probably have different file system requirements, like ZFS for example.


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## Deleted member 67440 (Apr 29, 2021)

Sevendogsbsd said:


> ...
> installs for a server probably have different file system requirements, like ZFS for example.


In fact it is the single most important reason (if not the only one) to use FreeBSD in the server environment, instead for example Debian.
A full-scale-OpenZFS-Debian can be even better than FreeBSD.
BUT Linus does not like zfs at all, it's a very old story.
He's NOT a storage guy

I'll say more: sometimes I still use Solaris systems (or cousins) precisely for a more compatible zfs-ACL(Windows) implementation than that of Samba (as well as the official support of Virtualbox: we often forget that Solaris and Virtualbox are both Oracle's products ... ).
A Solaris-zfs-PDC will (can) be even better than FreeBSD, but it does not exists.


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## ralphbsz (Apr 29, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> I want to try BSD ...


For what? Are you building an embedded system, are you going to run it on a server, are you making a firewall, are you going to use it for software development (and if yes, what machines will your software be deployed on), or are you just using it as a desktop? To answer the question whether FreeBSD is appropriate, or whether other BSD operating systems might be more appropriate, we need to know what your goals are.



> ... because of: the lack of systemd ...


Why? What has systemd done to you? Has it created any problems for you? Has it made development difficult for you?

Here's my story: I use both Linux (several different flavors), MacOS, and FreeBSD. I develop software, including daemons (programs that get started at boot and run at all times) on both FreeBSD and Linux. And while I don't enjoy using systemd (the configuration style is strange, the integration of zillions of functions into one package is undesirable, it has too many prerequisites which makes creating a small installation impossible), I actually like creating daemons that run under systemd, because systemd takes over a lot of the work that daemons usually need to implement, and does it for them (in a more reliable fashion).

I'm not saying that Lennart is a good person or a fine software engineer, nor that systemd is well engineered. All I'm saying is that for a user and developer, it can actually be pretty good.

I suspect that you want to get away from systemd either based on politics (for example the common GPL hate), or because of second-hand information.



> ... and I was interested in the HAMMER2 filesystem (I know that this is DragonFlyBDS).


Many people already said that ZFS's features are mostly a superset of Hammer.

What is the use of your file system? Long-term archival storage, desktop, serving other machines, in particular SMB/CIFS clients (typ. Windows and Mac)? How big is your file system, and how many disks do you intend to use? What is your plan for durability and availability (RAID, redundancy, backup)? This affects what file system to choose. My personal answer: Use ZFS whenever possible.



> I don't know which distribution to choose:


Others have already commented, but let me try to make this clear. Linux has "distributions". That's because the only thing actually called "Linux" is a kernel, which is trademarked by Linus, and distributed in raw form by kernel.org. You can actually download and compile just the kernel and use it (embedded developers sometimes do that). But for normal users of operating systems, you need other stuff, for example utility command such as ls and rm, integration with daemons such as cron and getty (without getty, nobody will ever log into the machine!), setting up the networking infrastructure (such as setting the IP address of a network port), adding compilers and linkers (such as gcc or clang), and sometimes adding an X-windows based GUI (such as gnome or KDE). This packaging is what is called a "distribution". Typically, the large distributions (such as RedHat, SUSE and Debian) also modify the kernel (very few or none actually work well with an unmodified kernel.org kernel).

On the other hand, the various BSDs are not distributions. Instead, they are complete operating systems, including separately developed kernels and userland, and different packaging with contributed software (called "ports" or "packages") such as the GUI. They separated from each other about 15-25 years ago (the three big ones, NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD all got started in the early 90s, DragonFlyBSD in the early 00s). And for each of them, the "base operating system" (the kernel and the basic utilities) are not packaged together, but actually developed and designed. So for example the FreeBSD version of ls (while mostly identical in the source code with the NetBSD and OpenBSD versions) will have changes that are done by FreeBSD developers for integration of the rest of FreeBSD.

To a large extent, the largest difference between the various *BSD operating systems and Linux distributions is this: Any one BSD system is actually coherently designed, and things like project goals, release cycles, portability, man page style, documentation, and quality control are consistent, across the whole OS. This does not so much extend to packages (and the DE/GUI is typically a package), which are typically only minimally patched for each BSD. To the consumer of an OS, this leads to a different "feel": Similar to MacOS, using BSD makes you feel like you are dealing with a unified and consistent body. On the other hand, in Linux you often notice that different components (such as Apache, Bind, and baseutils) have different styles and different mindsets.


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## WojAbuk (Apr 29, 2021)

I have been using systemd for 5 years and so far I have had a problem with it 3 times, but each time I am very irritated by the lack of repeatability of the problem, the error disappears by itself for two days, only to be reminded of itself at the worst moment. Now I'm going to have BSD as my desktop. I still want to develop software but it goes like blood from my nose (ie very slowly). When it comes to software development, the requirements for the platform, I mainly care about the portability of the code measured by platforms. As I wrote above, I am an ICT specialist at the moment wherever we use Linux, but if I like BSD, 99% will use it for firewalls. As for the file system requirements, I mainly want it to be immune to my stupidity, not to cause problems on SSDs and encryption is welcome. The inconsistency in Linux also annoyed me sometimes, but MAC I couldn't afford, Linux is much better than Windows and until recently my English was too poor to understand the BSD documentation.


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## zirias@ (Apr 29, 2021)

ralphbsz said:


> I suspect that you want to get away from systemd either based on politics (for example the common GPL hate), or because of second-hand information.


As someone operating systems (although only for my private needs), I don't want systemd because in my experience, it renders the system intransparent and makes "problem solving" a nightmare.

As a software developer and architect, I don't want systemd because it introduces unnecessary runtime dependencies, so my software won't run reliably on itself. If your concern is the bells and whistles needed to correctly set up a "daemon", and repeating this all over again, the obvious solution would be a library (which is more or less the idea behind daemon(3), although I'm not completely satisfied with that one either).

Although I'm not convinced by the idea of the GPL, the license really is the least relevant concern.


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## bobmc (Apr 29, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> don't know which distribution to choose:


I picked FreeBSD since it seems to have more concern for usability.  Perhaps you can start with FreeBSD and later try the more R&D others later.


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## richardtoohey2 (Apr 29, 2021)

fcorbelli said:


> I use all three, for different reasons.


Yes, why choose one?

Unless you've only got one computer.

I use OpenBSD (firewalls and desktop) and FreeBSD (servers).  But also Linux (Mint & Ubuntu) and Windows and Mac OS X.  And Android and iOS.  All have pros & cons, strengths & weaknesses and all have caused me frustration at one time or another.

As everyone is saying - what works best for you is only known by you.  Linux has a lot more resources (developers & money) so it has better hardware support (but not as good as Windows) and more applications (and more up-to-date applications.)  So you might get away from systemd, but sure you'll find something different that you dislike on a BSD.

I _think_ FreeBSD would be the most supported/popular BSD but if you look around these forums - there can be issues with Wifi and graphics.


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## scottro (Apr 29, 2021)

In my experience, wifi is slower than Linux in Free and OpenBSD. However, it's fast enough, at least on FreeBSD, to watch youtube videos without a problem. 
FreeBSD is probably going to be the easiest to start with. There are even various GUI versions, where you can try it out as a live CD.

Not knowing your circumstances, I can also add that if you don't have extra hardware, as everyone's been writing, you can try them in virtual machines.


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## fraxamo (Apr 30, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> Now I'm going to have BSD as my desktop


Then you will want to read vermaden's 23-part FreeBSD Desktop series. As an added bonus he is also Polish and very friendly, which may help if you have questions


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## vermaden (Apr 30, 2021)

fraxamo said:


> Then you will want to read vermaden's 23-part FreeBSD Desktop series. As an added bonus he is also Polish and very friendly, which may help if you have questions


24 already


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## fraxamo (Apr 30, 2021)

You may need to update the front page of your series then as I see this as the last item in the list: https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2021/04/18/freebsd-desktop-part-23-configuration-herbe-notifications/
Or am I missing something?

Edit: Ok, never mind, just counted and there's a part 2.1 that I hadn't noticed


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## vermaden (Apr 30, 2021)

fraxamo said:


> Ok, never mind, just counted and there's a part 2.1 that I hadn't noticed


No problem 

Here is the 24th part:








						FreeBSD Desktop – Part 24 – Configuration – Universal File Opener
					

More then a decade ago when I started to use X11 as a desktop – on Linux then with KDE3 and later with Fluxbox. At first I thought that files are opened by appropriate applications not by the…




					vermaden.wordpress.com


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## Deleted member 30996 (Apr 30, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> Now I'm going to have BSD as my desktop.


I've had FreeBSD and OpenBSD desktops. FreeBSD feels more polished as a desktop OS to me. I've switched all my other boxen over and have 9 laptops running FreeBSD.

Here's something you may find of some use. You already know how to use a terminal so you can disregard those parts but still follow the outline to get to the desktop. You can use pkg instead of ports but you have to consult the Handbook and it's only a few commands:









						Beginners Guide - How To Set Up A FreeBSD Desktop From Scratch
					

I'm going to guide you though the process of getting a fully functional FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE desktop up and running, complete with system files and security settings, step-by-step as if you've never used UNIX or the command line. Now let's get started:  Insert your boot media and at the Welcome...




					forums.freebsd.org


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## astyle (Apr 30, 2021)

> WojAbuk said:
> 
> 
> > I am an IT specialist (translating from a translator) and it seems to me that it is a matter of time until someone tells me to configure a firewall on BSD, so I need to know some BSD distribution.
> ...


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## fel1x (May 1, 2021)

WojAbuk said:


> I don't know which distribution to choose:
> -FreeBSD seems to have the best documentation.
> -OpenBSD is said to be the safest distribution.
> -DragonFlyBDS seems interesting to me.


Try FreeBSD if you are not familiar with BSD.
NetBSD is appropriate for non x86/amd64/arm/aarch64(Additional Information: From FreeBSD 13, it support RPi4 finally!)
I don't no much about DragonflyBSD, but I heard it is based on hybrid kernel and uses HAMMER2 file system.
OpenBSD is the safest one in terms of security, and it also has the least codes.(Normally, the amount of code and the level of security are directly proportional.)

*However, the most important thing is that the reason why you want to you BSD.*
For firewall, servers(etc. mail server), and embedded systems, FreeBSD is much better than Linux due to its stability and it is smaller than Linux. But in the case of general uses like games, I recommand Linux or Windows(Windows is only better for games and Adobe things.) because you can find more references on Linux than FreeBSD.

It is *your choice* to choose what BSD or Linux. There are somethings that are hard to tell by words because everyone's preference is different. Some people pursuit simple systems, whereas some people prefer high-performance systems. Experiencing all three BSD will be a valuable experience, and it can help you what BSD to decide or recommend to your friends and colleagues.


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