# Isn't time to build a serious graphical package manager for FreeBSD?



## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

Considering in this section and in the whole FreeBSD forum the top post for view (5,901, ten times over the second in the chart) and surely the top for this section of the forum, is the one related with finding a valid graphical and automated package manager for FreeBSD isn't time for guys at FreeBSD foundation to build something user friendly, maybe together with an update binary server, for updating and upgrading purposes?

All this reads just means MANY people in the FreeBSD user base or people that want to become FreeBSD users will like a tool like this, considering Portmaster and Portupgrade are devoloping things unfriendly and slow for someone that just want an updated (i wont say "rolling", for now) release for getting the best from this wonderful OS with a great engine and a poor, quietly not user friendly, "body". FreeBSD, for me, is like a car with a Ferrari engine and a Fiat 500 body :-(

Such a tool, it will surely increase the use and the interest of this solid effort OS called FreeBSD and it will be something totally different from various "distros" around.

Nothing to do with PC-BSD with his .PBI package manager (honestly not always up to date and often buggy), but something official for improve the user base experience.

Considering even Solaris do have such a thing, FreeBSD should consider this very seriously if it want to grow the user base.


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## gkontos (Jan 23, 2012)

A quick search should get you started:

link: http://www.freebsd.org/ports/ports-mgmt.html


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## phoenix (Jan 23, 2012)

How do you build an "official" graphical package manager, when there is no "official" graphical environment on FreeBSD?    Which GUI toolkit would you use?  GTK+, QT, KDE libs, TCL/TK, etc?  Which DE would you integrate it with?


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> FreeBSD should consider this very seriously if it want to grow the user base.


We are not Bill Gates (Microsoft), Steve Jobs (Apple), Linus Torvalds (Linux) or the Borg. *FreeBSD does not aspire world domination*. To dispel a common misconception: FreeBSD is not for everybody, nor does it aspire to be so. Most users who use FreeBSD for its intended purposes do not need such a tool. Anyone is free (and welcome) to develop such a tool and there are several in existence already. There is no need for the FreeBSD Foundation to formally push for the development of such a tool or to include existing such tools in the base system.

PC-BSD (to name but one prominent example) is built on FreeBSD but it *is* not FreeBSD. It has different goals than FreeBSD.

Feel free to read any of the other 1024 threads on this subject.

Fonz


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## sk8harddiefast (Jan 23, 2012)

The last months I see a lot of people to start posts like Make it easier, Make it for noobs, we want GUI installer, we want GUI package manager etc. Let's clear something. FreeBSD is *SERVER OS*. If you want, you can do it as desktop. If you don't want to spend your time to learn how to do it, PCBSD exist for this reason! If you are coming from ubuntu then FreeBSD is not the problem. The problem is that you learned to have everything automated. FreeBSD don't want to be desktop and user friendly OS. Is not designed for this reason.I spend 2 years in my computer and some things even now not working and I don't know how to fix them. But this is not FreeBSD's fault. Just I have not the experience. So stop demand and start reading the Handbook (Don't take this post personally)


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## adamk (Jan 23, 2012)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> The last months I see a lot of people to start posts like Make it easier, Make it for noobs, we want GUI installer, we want GUI package manager etc. Let's clear something. FreeBSD is *SERVER OS*.



As has been pointed out before, the FreeBSD homepage says (in it's first sentence):



> FreeBSDÂ® is an advanced operating system for modern server, desktop, and embedded computer platforms.



There is nothing wrong with folks making suggestions (here or on the mailing lists) to improve it's capabilities as a desktop operating system if the project itself wants to make those claims.


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## sk8harddiefast (Jan 23, 2012)

I dindn't say that FreeBSD can not be a desktop system. But don't make (general) like my grand parents that they have no idea about computers and believe that everything on computers must works by own! Come on! If FreeBSD was coming with default GUI, GUI installer and GUI package manager then his name should be PCBSD that already exist for this reason! And probably I was never used it! I like that FreeBSD comes pure. No packages, no GUI and lets you handle it as you want


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## bbzz (Jan 23, 2012)

In the old days of Windows glory, linux was new, exciting, fresh, unconquered. People migrated there because it was different. 
Now, linux is boring, mission accomplished, with the exception of several big distributions, the rest looks same. 
Now, the herd wave is coming to FreeBSD. It appears to be "new" linux.
We must make sure nobody goes through the barricades.


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

adamk said:
			
		

> There is nothing wrong with folks making suggestions (here or on the mailing lists) to improve it's capabilities as a desktop operating system if the project itself wants to make those claims.


I think you're misreading that claim. FreeBSD is a perfectly fine desktop OS. However, that very same website does *not* say: _"FreeBSD: the ultimate desktop experience that even your mother-in-law can install and use!"_

Of course, everybody is welcome to make suggestions and there's nothing wrong with that per se! But first of all, we have been getting *lots* of similar shopping list threads here lately and I think that some people are getting a bit tired of them (I know I am), which probably explains why the responses are gradually getting harsher. I'm not attempting to justify that, it's merely an observation. And second: FreeBSD has been around for years. If the focus of FreeBSD were to be a highly accessible, easy-for-the-novice operating system, it probably would have been so already and forks such as PC-BSD and GhostBSD possibly wouldn't have existed.

Fonz


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

phoenix said:
			
		

> How do you build an "official" graphical package manager, when there is no "official" graphical environment on FreeBSD?    Which GUI toolkit would you use?  GTK+, QT, KDE libs, TCL/TK, etc?  Which DE would you integrate it with?


Up to theme to choose which one.


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

fonz said:
			
		

> We are not Bill Gates (Microsoft), Steve Jobs (Apple), Linus Torvalds (Linux) or the Borg. *FreeBSD does not aspire world domination*.


Do you officially speak in the name of FreeBSD foundation? Becouse if you don't you should be more carefull related with the opions of such a foundation.


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> I dindn't say that FreeBSD can not be a desktop system. But don't make like my grand parents that they have no idea about computers and believe that everything on computers must works by own! Come on! If FreeBSD was coming with default GUI, GUI installer and GUI package manager then his name should be PCBSD that already exist for this reason! And probably I was never used it! I like that FreeBSD comes pure. No packages, no GUI and lets you handle it as you want


So you want a stable and advanced OS like FreeBSD in a ghetto just to please your needs to feel yourself like a geeks. Great. I hope guys in the foundation didn't build this OS for guys like you, and I'm sure they didn't.


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## adamk (Jan 23, 2012)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> I dindn't say that FreeBSD can not be a desktop system. But don't make like my grand parents that they have no idea about computers and believe that everything on computers must works by own! Come on! If FreeBSD was coming with default GUI, GUI installer and GUI package manager then his name should be PCBSD that already exist for this reason! And probably I was never used it! I like that FreeBSD comes pure. No packages, no GUI and lets you handle it as you want



And how would having a "serious graphical package manager" remove your ability to "handle it as you want"?  No one here has suggested removing the currently available ports/packages tools.

Adam


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## francis (Jan 23, 2012)

Hi, there is a ports-mgmt/bpm package which is a _graphical ports collection manager for FreeBSD. It has a GTK+ 2.0 interface and allows you to add, remove, or upgrade software packages on your system without requiring you to use a command-line_. It appears that there is no official website or does not work (see statement; This topic does not exist yet). There is also the ports-mgmt/kports (some screenshots). Version available in the FreeBSD ports system is *0.6.1_9* but note that *0.8.2* version was released on _2009-12-13_!

Unfortunately I never used these tools, because I had no such need so I can not say anything more.

Best regards!


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

adamk said:
			
		

> And how would having a "serious graphical package manager" remove your ability to "handle it as you want"?  No one here has suggested removing the currently available ports/packages tools.
> 
> Adam


Thankx Adam! This was EXACTLY the sense of my original first post in the thread.


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> Do you officially speak in the name of FreeBSD foundation[sic]? Becouse[sic] if you don't you should be more carefull[sic] related[sic] with the opions[sic] of such a foundation.


http://www.freebsdfoundation.org


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## freethread (Jan 23, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> with a Ferrari engine and a Fiat 500 body



ahahah, are you italian? I know another saying that sound the same with opposite meaning.

I'm sorry for the OT, however this topic has same implications of this one. When I started using FreeBSD I too asked to me all that 'why' but now it's more clear.

Only the braves.


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## adamk (Jan 23, 2012)

fonz said:
			
		

> I think you're misreading that claim. FreeBSD is a perfectly fine desktop OS. However, that very same website does *not* say: _"FreeBSD: the ultimate desktop experience that even your mother-in-law can install and use!"_



I think you're misreading my claim.  I never said that the website made that claim, did I?



> Of course, everybody is welcome to make suggestions and there's nothing wrong with that per se! But first of all, we have been getting *lots* of similar shopping list threads here lately and I think that some people are getting a bit tired of them (I know I am), which probably explains why the responses are gradually getting harsher.



If you (or others) just getting more and more frustrated reading these threads, then don't read them.  You can clearly tell what this thread is about from the subject.



> I'm not attempting to justify that, it's merely an observation. And second: FreeBSD has been around for years. If the focus of FreeBSD were to be a highly accessible, easy-for-the-novice operating system, it probably would have been so already and forks such as PC-BSD and GhostBSD possibly wouldn't have existed.



Unless a product (any product, not just FreeBSD) is perfect, there are still changes that can be made to improve it. If someone thinks they have a valid opinion, there's nothing wrong with them voicing it.


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

freethread said:
			
		

> ahahah, are you italian? I know another saying that sound the same with opposite meaning.
> 
> I'm sorry for the OT, however this topic has same implications of this one. When I started using FreeBSD I too asked to me all that 'why' but now it's more clear.
> 
> Only the braves.


I've been with FreeBSD on and off starting in 1994 if memory serve me well (it was FreeBSD 4). I did it becouse I liked the project and I still like it. I'm just disappointed it is pretty much the same related with usability, and it is too bad. This OS deserve more and IMHO little steps are needed to make it more appealing for the general use. That's all. And, yes, I want that tool for me too, I always used FreeBSD FOR MY CONVENIENCE, not to feel myself part of something so special. And I still did. I'm too old to feel myself cool just becouse I run five or six FreeBSD box, I do it for my pretty convenience and I want it to be even more convenient for me and for others. And I'm also happy if FreeBSD become more popular, why not? And it makes more money. I will even donate to the foundation if they do a decent Package Manager.


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

fonz said:
			
		

> http://www.freebsdfoundation.org


So??? Again: do you speak in the name of FreeBSD foundation? I don't read anything similar to your post on that web site.


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

adamk said:
			
		

> If you (or others) just getting more and more frustrated reading these threads, then don't read them.


Congratulations, you may have made the most sensible remark in this entire thread (I honestly mean that, no sarcasm).



			
				adamk said:
			
		

> fonz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for repeating what I just said.



			
				adamk said:
			
		

> Unless a product (any product, not just FreeBSD) is perfect, there are still changes that can be made to improve it.


Certainly. But changes _along the lines that are currently being suggested_ have resulted in ports and complete spin-offs, not in changes to FreeBSD's base system. Methinks there are reasons for that.

Fonz


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> I don't read anything similar to your post on that web site.


Exactly. If the goal of the FreeBSD Foundation were to push FreeBSD to world domination, they probably would have said so.

Fonz


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

fonz said:
			
		

> Exactly. If the goal of the FreeBSD Foundation were to push FreeBSD to world domination, they probably would have said so.
> 
> Fonz


Who said "push the world"? Do a decent Package Manager and maybe even a "decent" build system is "push the world"?


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> Who said "push the world"?


Gravity, presumably 



			
				piggy said:
			
		

> Do a decent Package Manager and maybe even a "decent" build system is "push the world"?


Evidently not. There are already decent package management and build systems.

Fonz


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

fonz said:
			
		

> Exactly. If the goal of the FreeBSD Foundation were to push FreeBSD to world domination, they probably would have said so.
> 
> Fonz


Again: speak for yourself considering you, just like me, you are not related in any way with The FreeBSD Foundation.


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## freethread (Jan 23, 2012)

@*piggy*
well, I try to reply in the shortest way, sorry for the english. All the ports are made by third-party developers/companies/organizations that have nothing to do with FreeBSD. To build up a system that include some of that packages mean to dedicate to them resources, many resources, expecially if you want the packages always up to date. In some way this is how the Linux distributions are made. Now you can think this is good, for me is a big 'patch' or a bunch of small patches, the most valuable Linux distribution, in my opinion, are the one owned by big companies (many resources), FreeBSD (in my opinion), is better than many OSs, it comes with no features/enhancements, they are in ports and you decide what to do with them and how to tune them after installation, but it's up to you, your experience, knowledge, will and, last but not least, luck.

To create a graphical installer with ready-to-use desktops and graphical package maintenance mean to include all the necessary 3rd-party packages, maintain them and standardize the system usage, this mean you no more will do what you want to do with the system, in other words the end of FreeBSD as you know.

That is my opinion.


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> Again: speak for yourself considering you, just like me, you are not related in any way with The FreeBSD Foundation.


Make no mistake: *everybody* here speaks for themselves (unless explicitly stated otherwise, of course). Please note that these are the FreeBSD Forums, not the FreeBSD Foundation Forums.
If you wish to make suggestions to the FreeBSD Foundation I suggest you contact them, not us.
If you wish to make suggestions to the FreeBSD developers, there are better places to go than here. Most developers don't read this.
If you wish to make suggestions to the FreeBSD community at large (then you are in the right place), you should be willing to accept answers such as _"What you want isn't likely to happen anytime soon."_ or _"What you want already exists."_ or _"Anyone is free to make what you want, but I'm not going to."_
Fonz


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## piggy (Jan 23, 2012)

fonz said:
			
		

> Make no mistake: *everybody* here speaks for themselves (unless explicitly stated otherwise, of course). Please note that these are the FreeBSD Forums, not the FreeBSD Foundation Forums.
> If you wish to make suggestions to the FreeBSD Foundation I suggest you contact them, not us.
> If you wish to make suggestions to the FreeBSD developers, there are better places to go than here. Most developers don't read this.
> If you wish to make suggestions to the FreeBSD community at large (then you are in the right place), you should be willing to accept answers such as _"What you want isn't likely to happen anytime soon."_ or _"What you want already exists."_ or _"Anyone is free to make what you want, but I'm not going to."_
> Fonz


Who is US? US is me too, considering I wrote stuff on this forum. And it is you and not me pretending to speak for them, The FreeBSD Foundation. Obviously I know where I post, do you too?


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## sk8harddiefast (Jan 23, 2012)

> So you want a stable and advanced OS like FreeBSD in a ghetto just to please your needs to feel yourself like a geeks. Great. I hope guys in the foundation didn't build this OS for guys like you, and I'm sure they didn't.


You know. I am not a computer freak but I really like computers. I don't know how you feel when you listen a girl that the only thing that knows on her life is Facebook to tell: OK. I will use Linux!!! When I listen that I want to give her a punch. OK? I spend thousands of hours to learn about Kernels, bash, mount, networking, I read a lot, I tried a lot and I don't like someone that have none idea about computers to speak about them feeling like his is a hacker. (Is not the first time I say that but I feel very angry about it) Linux was beautiful and this damage, made it Ubuntu with all his automated things. Even my baby that is not born yet could install Ubuntu! But Linux is not Ubuntu and Ubuntu give wrong sense about what Linux really is. I think I am not the only one that believe this. This is the reason that I left Linux. I want a serious community. A close community. If not. Ok. Then make BSD like Ubuntu and Windows and start writing antivirus, create 7000000 distros, become a huge community and live the mess of things like this when you will have 10000000 different opinions and none cannot agree to something to find a solution.  If you imagine FreeBSD as Linux then you are in wrong place. FreeBSD never was famous for his extremely friendly and big community. It was knowing about his serious community. Serious people that they know what the do, why and how to do it. People that don't like a trillion players that none works fine. They want one that works perfect! You know. Real freedom is to give you tools to create your home as exist in your imagination. Not in mine. That FreeBSD do. Gives you the tools and the freedom to play with them as you want even that is server, desktop or media center. Gives you options. Not the packet ready to use. And I don't know about you but the new wave and FreeBSD becomes the new Linux bothers me a lot. And the reason that Linux became very boring is exactly all the above. Huge community, mess, flame wars, none direction because in 1000000 different opinions you can't find the right direction. Just is impossible. Home and distro, 12 years old boys that they install Linux via GUI just to say to their friends: Hey look. I run Linux. Hackers run Linux. I am a hacker! If your dream about BSD is this ok. But Is not mine for sure! Also don't forget. *FreeBSD. Power to serve.* This community exist here to serve. Not to create the best desktop experience ever. FreeBSD's first goal is to be a server OS with stability and security. All the others become after that. I am not against GUI package manager. I am against the spirit that I see the last months: Make it easier. No. just learn more! The problem is not the terminal. The problem is you that afraid the terminal.
PS: *bspkg* exist on ports and is a GUI package manager.


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## adamk (Jan 23, 2012)

sk8harddiefast, none of what you just posted changes the fact that a stated goal of FreeBSD is to exist as a desktop operating system and that, therefore, discussions on how to improve FreeBSD as a desktop operating system are perfectly reasonable and likely to happen on this board.



> I am against the spirit that I see the last months: Make it easier. No. just learn more!



If you're desire to use an operating system is based on how difficult it is to use that operating system (which seems to be the general gist of your post) then there are likely operating systems that are an even better fit.



> The problem is not the terminal. The problem is you that afraid the terminal.



I'm not sure how you managed to determine this about any user currently on the thread.  No one here said anything suggesting that they are afraid of the terminal.  Making suggestions on how to improve the operating system does not mean one is afraid of the terminal.

And, finally:



> I don't know how you feel when you listen a girl that the only thing that knows on her life is Facebook to tell: OK. I will use Linux!!! When I listen that I want to give her a punch. OK?



If you want to punch people who want to try out linux, despite not knowing anything other than facebook, it sounds like you have a anger-management issue, and I recommend counseling.  There's no reason for you to care that much about what another person is using on their computer.  This is not meant as an insult or attack, but a serious concern.

Adam


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## UNIXgod (Jan 23, 2012)

fonz said:
			
		

> Feel free to read any of the other 1024 threads on this subject.



I just got that math. cute!



			
				adamk said:
			
		

> sk8harddiefast, none of what you just posted changes the fact that a stated goal of FreeBSD is to exist as a desktop operating system and that, therefore, discussions on how to improve FreeBSD as a desktop operating system are perfectly reasonable and likely to happen on this board.
> Adam



FreeBSD does not have the goal to be only a desktop OS. In fact it's always been a Server OS which just so happens to also be a suitable OS for running a desktop or window manager.



Personally I'm pretty slow to move forward. I realize many people have the preference from their previous OSes to use gfx. But it's not my preference.

I have always went to the ports dir I needed.

Read the pkg* and make files.

created a proper make command with correct switches and set up portupgrades .conf file.

I know the make switches I need and enough portupgrade to semi automate upgrades.

I realize the ports system is pretty old ( actually one of the oldest) but it works for the most part.

I wouldn't want portupgrade or its alternative portmaster to be in the base system. It's my choice to pick the port automation tool I want.

Though if someone was to make a gtk frontend to ports and portmaster or portupgrade I imagine it would be nice for people who have no need for low level control or ssh without the x windows switch on their servers.

Most of us wont deal with xorg being in base. Having the tool supplied in ports will make both camps happy. Base is and should always be vanilla as everyone has different needs for their FreeBSD install.


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## bbzz (Jan 23, 2012)

I can't believe people are getting mad for not having graphical package installer in FreeBSD. Ha!


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## adamk (Jan 23, 2012)

bbzz said:
			
		

> I can't believe people are getting mad for not having graphical package installer in FreeBSD. Ha!



I don't see anyone getting mad that there is no graphical package manager, but I do see people getting mad at others for suggesting there be a graphical package installer.


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> Who is US?


The users of these forums, including you and me.

As I mentioned above, everybody here speaks for themselves. Ergo: I speak for myself as a user of these forums. In particular, as one who has seen several threads like this already. I do not speak for the FreeBSD Foundation, nor do I claim to do so. Don't twist my words.

Also, you're changing the subject. You started this thread by saying that "you guys at the FreeBSD Foundation" should create something that (you think) will improve FreeBSD.
First of all, *this* is *not* the FreeBSD Foundation. This is a forum of mostly FreeBSD users. By addressing us (everybody here) with "you guys at the FreeBSD Foundation", you're already in the wrong place. You've written a letter to Bob but sent it to Alice.
Second, suggestions are of course always welcome and I don't think anyone denies that you mean well.
Third, you have read several earlier threads and (should) already know what kind of reception people with shopping lists usually get.
Fourth, several people are trying to explain to you that there are already such programs in the ports collection.
Fifth, several people are trying to explain to you that and why those programs are unlikely to be moved into the base system anytime soon.
Sixth, if you think those are not good enough (yet) and you want something new to be created, you (should) know that this is usually not the right place to ask. Most developers don't read or post here and most of the people who do read and post here will tell you to do it yourself.
Seventh, just because you don't like the answers you knew you could expect, doesn't mean you should cause a scene.
Fonz


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## bbzz (Jan 23, 2012)

Tomato, tomatho. 
Anyway, I still don't get shananigans about this graphic package installer. How people dare think there should be one in the first place!


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## sk8harddiefast (Jan 23, 2012)

> sk8harddiefast, none of what you just posted changes the fact that a stated goal of FreeBSD is to exist as a desktop operating system and that, therefore, discussions on how to improve FreeBSD as a desktop operating system are perfectly reasonable and likely to happen on this board.


I don't disagree about that. I disagree on FreeBSD's first priority. As desktop OS or as Server OS? If you start as server OS then you take completely different direction of Desktop OS!
Also then why PCBSD exist? Exactly for this reason!


> If you're desire to use an operating system is based on how difficult it is to use that operating system (which seems to be the general gist of your post) then there are likely operating systems that are an even better fit


I take the difficulty as fact to choose an OS because I really don't like all the situation about Linux. Is just a mess! The last 3 years everyday a new distro! What's the point of 200 debian based distros witch all are almost the same? More difficult=less people. Not 2-3 but not 15 millions that everyone has something in his mind and because they cannot find a way to go forward and agree with there opinions and there ideas, they create a new distro


> I'm not sure how you managed to determine this about any user currently on the thread. No one here said anything suggesting that they are afraid of the terminal. Making suggestions on how to improve the operating system does not mean one is afraid of the terminal.


Ok. On this maybe I am wrong on that. Just I don't like the idea to wake up a day and see FreeBSD 12 with GUI installer, KDE by default, GUI package manager etc. Not because I hate them. Just because I don't want to see them in base. I want FreeBSD can act as a perfect desktop system but not embedded with the system. To be 2 separated things. None say that FreeBSD can't be as desktop. I use it as desktop and I have one FreeBSD server too. But. FreeBSD is a server OS. A server OS must not have GUI by default. A Server hardware may have 2 processors on his mobo but for sure don't have a very demanding graphics card. Maybe some embedded, enough powerful for a window manager and a lot of servers works with WEBUI like FreeNAS, pfsense etc. That by own can teach as that a Server OS is something different from Desktop OS. Not that can't exist as desktop OS. Just in first place don't act like this. I don't say what can be but what is his priority. Can be spaceship too but this is not FreeBSD's first priority!
Finishing, I want to make something clear. Punch people is a phrase. I have never never in my life make something bad to anyone and I am against violence. But if you spend 10 hours to draw somenthing, how you will feel If I will come and say to you. Ok. I have never used pencil in my life but I draw better than you and see the razz in my face? The first time you will be disappointed. After 5-6 times you will start to be angry too. It's very normal and that we call it.... human! Just I don't like anyone with none computer knowledge to judge FreeBSD or speak for Linux like is Windows. One day everyone waked up and learned about Linux. This is not the bad. Me too. I was one of them. The bad is when, you have no idea what is this but you insult it. Don't tell me that you really like it!
PS: I have a complex about OSes. I know that just this is the reason.


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## fonz (Jan 23, 2012)

bbzz said:
			
		

> Anyway, I still don't get shananigans about this graphic package installer. How people dare think there should be one in the first place!


I can imagine why some people want one. In fact, there are some programs out there that do just that. I don't need them, but they are there and I'm fine with that. However, the people who want it most (or complain the loudest that the current ones aren't good enough) are usually not the same people who have the ability to actually make or fix it themselves. The people who do have that ability either have already done it, or don't have time to do it because they have other priorities, or can't be arsed to do it because they don't need it.

Fonz


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## adamk (Jan 23, 2012)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> But if you spend 10 hours to draw somenthing, how you will feel If I will come and say to you. Ok. I have never used pencil in my life but I draw better than you and see the razz in my face? The first time you will be disappointed. After 5-6 times you will start to be angry too. It's very normal and that we call it.... human!



If they were able to draw better than I was, that fast, then I'd think it might be time for me to do something else  If they weren't better than me, then why would I care?

Adam


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## drhowarddrfine (Jan 23, 2012)

fonz said:
			
		

> First of all, *this* is *not* the FreeBSD Foundation. This is a forum of mostly FreeBSD users. By addressing us (everybody here) with "you guys at the FreeBSD Foundation", you're already in the wrong place. You've written a letter to Bob but sent it to Alice.
> Second, suggestions are of course always welcome and I don't think anyone denies that you mean well.
> Third, you have read several earlier threads and (should) already know what kind of reception people with shopping lists usually get.
> Fourth, several people are trying to explain to you that there are already such programs in the ports collection.
> ...


Eighth, you're ugly, too.


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## sk8harddiefast (Jan 23, 2012)

> If they were able to draw better than I was, that fast, then I'd think it might be time for me to do something else  If they weren't better than me, then why would I care?


Because they are not as good as you, but they judge you! You try to explain them but still they judge you and act like they are picasso just because the made to draw a line. And the worst. They judge you because they don't understand what are you telling them. They have none idea about drawing! Maybe you are not picasso but you draw well. You spend hours to draw well and better that them for sure. And they continue to judge you! Now you understand what I try to say?


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## adamk (Jan 23, 2012)

sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> Because they are not as good as you, but they judge you! Now you understand what I try to say?



So what?  If they aren't as good as me, but think they are, clearly their opinion (on that matter) is worthless in my eyes.  I couldn't care what they think, then, and there's no reason to get upset.

Adam


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## sk8harddiefast (Jan 23, 2012)

You have right but this is about what they say when they judge you. You know. Stealing from stealing have very big difference. Steal is stealing a chocolate, steal is robbing a bank too. But is not the same thing.
You can't go to your computers professor that works on UNIX 15 years and studied 2000 books to learn, and act to him with razz with the "air" of hacker just because you installed Ubuntu Linux when the only you know in your life is msn! Just is wrong! If you respect your self first of all you don't do that! I am not a psycho guy. Just bothers me when I see that! It is normal! Especially when they do it to me. Not because I am the best on computers  because I am not but I don't accept to judge me a guy that all day is on facebook and don't know even what reboot means! So because I don't want to have this, I left Linux when start to be more know and everyone start to have opinion about it, even if had none idea about computers. I used FreeBSD and I liked FreeBSD. I really love FreeBSD and just I don't want one day to decide to leave FreeBSD for the same reason. Sounds stupid but I really don't like it! Is just me! None tells that I am perfect. I am a human and I have my complex too witch is very normal.
Also. I like GUI but I want to have choices where I want to use GUI and where not. For example. I use xfce4. I use GUI. But I dont want use GUI for package manager. Is good to exist a GUI package manager on ports. I am with this idea too. But I don't like to install FreeBSD and start Xserver by own, give me KDE4 and a GUI package manager just because come with the base and is part of the system. Is not something that I choosed. It's called PCBSD. If I was searching for that now I was not writing this post Or I like automated things but not in base. How I configure my network, is something that I will decide it. Maybe I want use ling aggregation or give static ip. Why the system must decide by own to configure only one of my 2 cards and give DHCP? Or autoconfigure my soundcard when I am setting a NAS server? On NAS server enable the sound card is just useless. But I like automated things like automount a flash disk. (It's painfull to mount everytime. Especially me because I use flash disks everyday) or see a movie from DVD without try two hours to mount cdrom and make subtitles to work properly. But not go to the other side that everything is autoconfigured, computer serves to me coffee, do anything without asking, mount everythig by own, samba, nfs, local hdds etc and after you lose one week to find how to change permissions. That we call it Windows / Ubuntu. Is better to learn by own to set permissions. Sometimes to start something from scratch is better to try to fix something. (In some cases)
Is not bad to have 10 player to decide what you want. Is bad to have 10000 player to decide what you want. Especially if the 5000 not working good. That we call it mess. Is better to have 10 players that rocks and do there job. Is good to have flags and decide what kind of support want / don't want my package to have. To install a package that will give to me other DE or tools that I have already disposed in the past for some reason as dependencies is something that I don't like. For exact this reason I chose FreeBSD. Because gives me this flexibility on the most of the cases. Just I don't want this to change to bad and that's why I react when I read posts to make it easier (Easier=autoconfigured). How easy and automated things will be is a very slim line that if we cross it to the other side things may will go wrong, the community will grow from 23000 to 23000000, flexibility maybe will be lost and FreeBSD will die as server OS that can be used as desktop too and will be only a desktop OS. Well I really don't like this idea! You believe that this can take a lot of time? I am not so sure!
This is that I am trying to say all this time and if you believe that I am wrong feel free to judge me. You know about computers, Linux, BSD, Unix.  I can accept it from you


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## tcrider84 (Jan 23, 2012)

Here's what I think. FreeBSD is great the way it is. It's simple, solid, stable. When I first started using linux I had no idea what I was getting into. Had I not taken the time to learn it, I would not have known how to progress and fix/update things. I first started with redhat, then mandrake. I soon realized that you could not simply follow a gui and install a few packages and have everything fine and dandy. 

Soon after, I moved to debian. This was my first 'real' dive into linux. Where I learned basically how to install what I wanted and leave out what I didn't, as well as fix what was broken. (Back when installing nvidia drivers to me was a daunting task let alone setting up X). A few years later I moved to ubuntu, yes, everything was easily automated from their GUIs, but what happened when that GUI failed on some piece of hardware during install? I infact had atleast 3 notebooks I can think of that would fail and auto-restart during their "easy install". Had it not been for my past debian experience I would have been clueless. THAT, right there, is what separates the wants from the needs. Ubuntu might as well be a version of windows built on debian (as mac is to bsd). 

I like FreeBSD as it is because you know EXACTLY what you're setting up,adding, or removing. You know exactly what the system contains, and is running, and you know it's not filled with unnecessary extra bloatware. You also know by coming to the community that everyone in the community had to go through the same process to set up their version of FreeBSD, and for the most part won't have to deal with a bunch of ubuntu "follow the gui.. click click oh, you did that? well idk" responses. 

FreeBSD is definately a learning experience as opposed to most linux distros now which are more user-friendly than "back in the day". Yes, I agree FreeBSD is the new "linux" in that learning aspect, and I think it's a great thing.


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## adamk (Jan 24, 2012)

> You have right but this is about what they say when they judge you. You know.



They can say what they want; I am not so fragile that I see the need to get upset. What they believe has no bearing on the truth.

As for the rest of your post, sk8harddiefast, you're jumping to conclusions that I just can't reach.  I will say, however, that the original post makes no mention of autoconfiguring anything and that, in fact, easier does not necessarily mean autoconfigured.  

Anyway, this conversation is going nowhere, so I will quickly summarize my thoughts...  The original poster simply made a suggestion regarding package management, and you responded that FreeBSD is a server OS and not a desktop OS. Clearly the FreeBSD homepage says differently so, like it or not, this is a perfectly valid location to discuss possible ways to improve FreeBSD as a desktop operating system. 

Adam


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## DutchDaemon (Jan 24, 2012)

FreeBSD is not in the business of producing anything graphical. Anything graphical is a third-party add-on, so a graphical package manager would be a third-party add-on as well. So it is up to a third party to create a graphical package manager, not FreeBSD. Moreover, FreeBSD is about choice, so decisions about which graphical environment, tools, etc., are up to the user. I doubt FreeBSD will ever come with a dedicated graphical environment or any dedicated graphical tools for anything ([bsd|sys]install-stuff aside), if only because most of it is licensed in a way that makes inclusion in FreeBSD's base OS unfeasible or impossible. Maybe it's time to face that reality: FreeBSD is a command-line OS. Want something else: develop and build it yourself, or pay someone to do it for you. Chances that FreeBSD developers will do it are pretty slim, because none of them (that I know of) have shown any interest in adding graphical capabilities to the base system. FreeBSD can be _used_ as a desktop OS, it has the necessary capabilities to support graphical environments, the base system has the necessary tools to allow installing and running graphical environments, but that's basically it. FreeBSD is something to serve with or to build upon, it's more of a tool than a product, and it's not (willing to be) everything to everybody.


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## sk8harddiefast (Jan 24, 2012)

> however, that the original post makes no mention of autoconfiguring anything and that, in fact, easier does not necessarily mean autoconfigured.


All start from an idea. My first thought was to make a video for the girl that I love 6 years. Next week I am going to studio to record the song that I wrote for here!
Ok. @DutchDaemon said exactly my thoughts. The only that I want to say is that me too I feel good about GUI as third-package. Not problem with that. Just not in base. Let's keep it as third-package.
The start is already made. Is *bxpkg*. Exist on ports and is a GUI package manager. Not sure if works for prebuild packages only but I said earlier is better to create one that rocks. Never mind.
I don't know programming (this is the bad thing)  but If you want It would be my pleasure to help somehow. Even you start something from scratch.


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## UNIXgod (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> So you want a stable and advanced OS like FreeBSD in a ghetto just to please your needs to feel yourself like a geeks. Great. I hope guys in the foundation didn't build this OS for guys like you, and I'm sure they didn't.



With the foundations slim budget I imagine someone would need to donate specifically to push another layer to the existing ports tools. None the less the current donations are used for furthering drivers development, jails and firewall as well as other security tools. These current projects are tools many people need to make a living.

Not to be redundant but I believe everything has been covered here on this thread.

PC-BSD currently exists to provide people a starting point who may not be comfortable at first with seeing only a shell on first boot.

FreeBSD attempts( quite well) to be a historic server OS with the freedom to choose the tools and programs one requires for their specific computing needs.

FreeBSD does not attempt to market itself in competition for other operating systems. Never has and for the most part since it is a historical UNIX it really does not need to. (Yes I said the U word!)

Bell UNIX, BSD UNIX and FreeBSD prefer shell scripting and automation for administration. If a graphical install is needed for client one can be scripted simply. One of the most prevalent mis-conceptions that I hear from the consumer desktop user is that BSD UNIX and open source programs are not polished because they are created by programmers and the last thing on their mind is interface design.

Nothing is furthest from the truth. Regular expressions were first conceived in the 50's. The concept of rc and shell was pushed in the 60's. The pipe implemented to endow redirection in the 70's ... perl the 80's ... ruby in the 90's. Each innovation is left for human interaction and control and has been polished since the early days of UNIX from the 70's though the 80's. 

Though it may be an oversimplification the ports system automation removes the users interaction of running tar, ./configure,  make etc. Also it (obviously) recursively pulls in the programs libraries and dependencies and so on. All of which can be tweaked for optimization and/or security. Come to think about it. Thats pretty incredible and well polished and thought out piece of software ( actually I would go as far as calling it a system)

Also it's really not a hard system to learn. Everyone here started somewhere and eventually get the paradigm and procedures. I am still empathetic to those wish to circumvent the learning curve but your only cheating yourself. In all honesty shell scripting, unix utilities and modern shell languages may be bizarre at first but once the user hits the epiphany on proper usage( and paradigm) it becomes a life long skill which lasts beyond simply compiling and installing as it's use moves into the service realm such as our firewalls, web servers, email and so on.

Though Fonz was in so many words nicely telling you to "Shut up and HACK" (This means stop complaining and innovate if your not familiar with the mantra.) You have a couple of options if this is of financial importance to you.

Seed your own project. (This requires programming)
New to programming? Start there and use it as a pet project and seed it later.
If you don't want to do that but need to have this tool sooner than later for a client or current deadlined project contact a developer and pay them.
Not sure where to get a developer you can contact the FreeBSD Foundation and ask for recommendations.

If you feel there is some stress on this thread it's because common threads occur often where the user may be new to BSD or even UNIX in general and simply doesn't understand the goal of the project or has unrealistic expectations from the requests not realizing the implications of the request as anything added to base affects everyone and could bring unnecessary bloat to the system.

In the 90's FreeBSD had perl in base. It was removed during 4.x. Many base scripts that used it where replaced with standard bourne scripts. Almost anything you install from the ports almost always depends on perl. It makes it on the system no matter what. But somewhere out there. There is someone who has a system that doesn't need perl and it isn't there. This saves them space, resources, administration, and makes the system more secure. Not that perl is not secure. But if there was a issue you can't breach an executable that doe not exist. The same concept can be applied to x windows.



			
				sk8harddiefast said:
			
		

> I don't know programming (this is the bad thing)



I would be more than happy to help you get started on programming. PM me if your interested or begin a thread in the programming section.


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

I read all the posts.

Good god, FreeBSD is NOT  a religion. Guys, there is life outside there, and this is the reason becouse FreeBSD should implement an official build system and a Package Manager into FreeBSD. So you have more time for real life and you go out, and you enjoy something more than a computer with a shell running "religious" FreeBSD intifada shell scripts.

Then, I could offer my life to guarantee, if you want to loose or you like to loose your life fighting with Portmaster and Portupgrade, you can still do it. You are free to do what you want and write what you want, then I'm still free to do the same without reading someone try to treat me like a retard.

It really makes me laugh read about that guy complaining becouse a girl always on Facebook do use Linux and he don't want she use FreeBSD (becouse his OS learning curve do not deserve she can be compared to him) and the other that want to feel hisself like the part of a elite and he don't want to have nothing in common with those guys pretending that a computer "just works" (I'm one of them and yes, I'm proud of it and yes I also like FreeBSD). I also read such experts confuse NetBSD with FreeBSD (who said FreeBSD is just a server OS?).

And all those speaking in the name of The FreeBSD Foundation, saying things they never said. And all those guys feeling themself great computer users and super experts just becouse they like to Portmaster and Portupgrade things.

Come on, FreeBSD is not such a ghetto: I read a lot about guys developing it, I read statements and seen pictures, they use them Macbooks, they wrote a very decent Unix flavour OS and they never wrote they want to be part of a elite and don't become rich and don't have as much users as they can. And FreeBSD need just little improvement on the user side to be ready for getting a lot more users. And this is good. And for a developer this is something that he surely like, to see his job widely respected and used by different kind of people, for different kind of use.

BTW, for me, user from 1994 (NINENTINEIGHTYFOUR), FreeBSD is just something free to make things up. And yes, FreeBSD do have also users like me, and yes those users sometimes write in the forums too, and yes they do propose things.

No religion, nothing at all. For me FreeBSD is a very good OS like others, it have something more and something less, and as a user I propose things to improve it. I want to see even six year old guys in school have the choice to run them kiddie apps on FreeBSD desktop and I want it could convenient for them if they want.

Overall my favourite desktop OS is MacOS, then I deeply respet Microsoft Windows (I do like it and use it and respect it very much) and Linux (I do appreciate the grown, I do appreciate it is now really popular and wide spreaded), I known and used (and sometimes still use) Solaris and OpenSolaris from long time (they even have a decent Package Manager, they just miss a lot of packages I could use and hardware support is poor; so I prefer FreeBSD).

I think every OS and I like to use them and try the best from them (I especially like FREE OS becouse I can't afford 50 MAC and 50 Windows licenses and becouse every OS enrich the scene and contrary to that guy, I'm very happy to see more and more Facebook girls on Linux machines.

Actually I don't feel myself as a retarded just becouse Ubuntu is considered cool by them, I'm happy about it, I consider Ubuntu cool myself too (and I appreciate many Ubuntu variants, like PeppermintOS for example, Linux Mint) and in my home members of the family do use FreeBSD desktops without even know what is the engine under that computer, just becouse I set up them there, and it is a big compliment for FreeBSD. And yesss, they enjoy Facebook and MSN over a FreeBSD machine. What a shame! 


And, obviously, my request still remain: it is time for FreeBSD to move over from ghetto OS and intifada users, and build some official tools in the base OS to help things, like very many people ask, starting from me.

I will visit a FreeBSD convention, I hope soon, and speak with FreeBSD Foundation guys myself: I'm curious to hear what they think, what they want and who they are.


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> FreeBSD should implement an official build system and a Package Manager into FreeBSD.


We already have? It's called the ports system, see ports(7). Packages are managed using the pkg_tools; pkg_add(1), pkg_delete(1), pkg_info(1), pkg_version(1).


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> We already have? It's called the ports system, see ports(7). Packages are managed using the pkg_tools; pkg_add(1), pkg_delete(1), pkg_info(1), pkg_version(1).


Yes, and this is a contraddiction in terms considering you only can upgrade programs to latest revision building them. This is the reason becouse it need:

1) an OFFICIAL, base and officially maintained graphical tool to manage packages
2) an OFFICIAL and officially maintained tool to build packages (something between Portmaster and Portupgrade)
3) an updated and maintained binary server for binary upgrades using the Official Graphical Tool in point 1.

No need for more. It obviously should retain the ability to compile and use third party source and to allow people to use what he want for compile, but OFFICIAL tools are there for compatibility and wide spread use.

It will be a real better OS and the effort will pay even in the short time in terms of usuability and user base.


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## UNIXgod (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> I read all the posts.
> 
> Good god, FreeBSD is NOT  a religion. Guys, there is life outside there, and this is the reason becouse FreeBSD should implement an official build system and a Package Manager into FreeBSD. So you have more time for real life and you go out, and you enjoy something more than a computer with a shell running "religious" FreeBSD intifada shell scripts.



Seeing your passive aggressive troll; Speeching of religion; got me curious. Were you a lamer disinterested in UNIX during 1994 as well?


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> Yes, and this is a contraddiction in terms considering you only can upgrade programs to latest revision building them. This is the reason becouse it need:
> 
> 1) an OFFICIAL, base and officially maintained graphical tool to manage packages


As has been noted before, this is not possible as FreeBSD doesn't have a GUI. 



> 2) an OFFICIAL and officially maintained tool to build packages (something between Portmaster and Portupgrade)


The OFFICIAL way is to use make package or make package-recursive, see ports(7)



> 3) an updated and maintained binary server for binary upgrades using the Official Graphical Tool in point 1.


FreeBSD doesn't have a GUI, we therefor cannot have a GUI package manager.


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## mix_room (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> Yes, and this is a contraddiction in terms considering you only can upgrade programs to latest revision building them. This is the reason becouse it need:


Actually you just need to change the make-file, and then you can build from source to the version you want.



> 1) an OFFICIAL, base and officially maintained graphical tool to manage packages


Why should it be graphical? If you desparately want it, build it yourself. Interface the proper hooks, which I am sure there are, and get it done. Having a graphical interface requires running a bunch of stuff in parallel. A large number of the people using FreeBSD have multiple servers, these are much easier to handle with a text-based interface as they can be scripted. Scripting something for 10 server is faster and easier than clicking 10*10 times. Scaling can be a big issue.
So you have now introduced a second port/package/third-party-software management interface into the base system. For what reason? So that people can point-and-click? 



> 2) an OFFICIAL and officially maintained tool to build packages (something between Portmaster and Portupgrade)


The ports system already works. Just go to your chosen port, and then issue the proper make-command. Easy as piece of pie. 



> 3) an updated and maintained binary server for binary upgrades using the Official Graphical Tool in point 1.


Who will run it, who will pay for it, who will pay for maintenance. Who will build the packages? These things all cost money. Are you willing to pay for it? 



> No need for more. It obviously should retain the ability to compile and use third party source and to allow people to use what he want for compile, but OFFICIAL tools are there for compatibility and wide spread use.


That is why it would be a BAD idea to introduce more tools. Especially something like a graphical tool. IF the graphical tool is the official default, and I don't want a graphical interface, how do I now upgrade my software? You are forcing your choice on me. As it is now you can choose to introduce a graphical front-end to the available port-tools. Then you can point-and-click all day long. BUT it is quite difficult to have a text-based front-end for a graphical tool, requires scripting mouse-clicks etc etc. Which of these do you think gives the most compatability for a LARGE number of users with very varied choices?  




> It will be a real better OS and the effort will pay even in the short time in terms of usuability and user base.


No. It will not be a better OS. It might, for some people, be easier to use. But definately not for everybody.


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> As has been noted before, this is not possible as FreeBSD doesn't have a GUI.
> 
> 
> The OFFICIAL way is to use make package or make package-recursive, see ports(7)
> ...


Yes, I know, and this is the reason becouse I ask for one. Do you think things can be improved and change? And this changes I do propose can make FreeBSD a better OS, as explained in my other messages.


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

UNIXgod said:
			
		

> Seeing your passive aggressive troll; Speeching of religion; got me curious. Were you a lamer disinterested in UNIX during 1994 as well?


Thank you. This is exactly the reaction I would expect from a guy like you (see nick). And I'm happy about it.


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> Yes, I know, and this is the reason becouse I ask for one. Do you think things can be improved and change? And this changes I do propose can make FreeBSD a better OS, as explained in my other messages.



It's simply not possible.

I think the biggest misconception you seem to have is to consider ports/packages part of the OS. They aren't. ANYTHING you want to add to the base OS will need to be able to run WITHOUT any ports or packages installed.

How are you going to create a GUI if even the most basic Xorg libraries are not available?


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> It's simply not possible.
> 
> I think the biggest misconception you seem to have is to consider ports/packages part of the OS. They aren't. ANYTHING you want to add to the base OS will need to be able to run WITHOUT any ports or packages installed.
> 
> How are you going to create a GUI if even the most basic Xorg libraries are not available?


No, I want this change. You seems like those solid rocks unable to be moved in some other places. Things can change, it is not that complicated. I want build system and package management part of the OS, or something. And it can happen, ohh yes, it definitely can. And it will improve things so much, as I stated. I wont be like you and repeat things I always said, so it's enough.

PS: I'm not talking and discuss about install, install can be ok like it is. It can be improved, yes, then it can stay like it is. It still always have the option to install the gui. I just speak of updates, upgrades and package management. That's all.


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## sk8harddiefast (Jan 24, 2012)

> I want build system and package management part of the OS


After install FreeBSD run:

```
portsnap fetch extract
```
And you get ports on base!
But even this is separated thing!
FreeNAS is exactly this. FreeBSD server 0S without GUI, use WEBUI and have no ports in base. Just is not needed to be part of the system! FreeBSD created for things like FreeNAS or pfsense. Not for desktop use. Even we use it as desktop because we love FreeBSD.
Also out there, there are millions OS that follow the desktop use philosophy. This OS make the difference. Go to other direction! Why change that? Because will not be easy for everyone? FreeBSD is not designed to be the easy GUI desktop OS! Is designed with stability and security in mind. To be pure server 0S. PCBSD have the FreeBSD destop usage in mind and have GUI in most of things. FreeBSD exist just to serve and do his  job very good! This thread could be good some years before on PCBSD forums.


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## fluca1978 (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> I want build system and package management part of the OS, or something. And it can happen, ohh yes, it definitely can. And it will improve things so much, as I stated. I wont be like you and repeat things I always said, so it's enough.



As others has noted several ways in this thread, you cannot have a GUI package manager until you commit to a GUI (and its framework, libraries, etc.). That is why Ubuntu has a graphical package manager for Gnome, one for KDE and, most notably, one that can be run from the command line (e.g., in the server install).
And besides, it seems to me that it will be much more interesting to see if a common package format can be available between all the *BSD (or the majority of them). PCBSD has a great package format (PBI), that reminds me the one used in Mac OSX, but that is not committed to other BSDs; midnightBSD has another tool that reminds apt-get, and the list can continue. 
Now instead of insisting in getting FreeBSD doing what you want, why don't you choose another BSD system that has a package manager as you like?


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## gkontos (Jan 24, 2012)

I think that Mr. Piggy has asked the wrong question. The question should be:

*Isn't it time for a serious package process management  for FreeBSD?*

Let's try to clear some things first because although Mr. Piggy follows FreeBSD since 1994, he seems to have missed the part regarding package installation. So, it is obvious that one can use packages instead of ports and stay up to date. Hence my link suggestion in my first reply.

Now, for the real juice. There are currently 23043 ports available. Many of them can be build using different options which would require different dependencies etc.

So, the real question that has to be answered is, do we have the power to build all those package flavors on a daily basis and the bandwidth to distribute them? Is this something that the FreeBSD Foundation should really invest?

As we can see, the issue here in not application related. As soon as the decision is made then a relevant package management application will be made. Integrating nice windows and making this graphical would be the easiest part so that Mr. Piggy would be happy.


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> No, I want this change. You seems like those solid rocks unable to be moved in some other places. Things can change, it is not that complicated. I want build system and package management part of the OS, or something. And it can happen, ohh yes, it definitely can. And it will improve things so much, as I stated. I wont be like you and repeat things I always said, so it's enough.



Here's what you do, install FreeBSD. Any version will do. Do NOT install any packages or ports. This is the system where _any_ package manager, graphical or otherwise, needs to operate in.


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> Here's what you do, install FreeBSD. Any version will do. Do NOT install any packages or ports. This is the system where _any_ package manager, graphical or otherwise, needs to operate in.


Yes, and I want OFFICIAL graphical package manager and OFFICIAL constantly updated binary server for updates/upgrades.


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> Yes, and I want OFFICIAL graphical package manager and OFFICIAL constantly updated binary server for updates/upgrades.



Yes, and I want a million dollars. Sometimes we can't always get what we want.


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> Yes, and I want a million dollars. Sometimes we can't always get what we want.


We'll see. If you are right, FreeBSD will remain the four cat or so OS, and it is too bad becouse it do have a great engine. Not sure if what they (FreeBSD Foundation) want is to be the God of mr UnixGOD or mr "10 minute man" Dice


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

Don't hold your breath in the mean time.

Seriously, if I were you I'd stop talking about it and start writing some code. Come up with some suggestions on how to implement it. Suggest a framework, suggest something.


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> Don't hold your breath in the mean time.
> 
> Seriously, if I were you I'd stop talking about it and start writing some code. Come up with some suggestions on how to implement it. Suggest a framework, suggest something.


I'm not part of the FreeBSD Foundation. I can just suggest, no need for another third party crap. Becouse, seriously, that is what most of the third party BSD tools are.


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> I'm not part of the FreeBSD Foundation.


This has never stopped anyone from contributing.



> I can just suggest, no need for another third party crap.


Who do you think actually writes the code? Do you think it's some sort of company that has a few dozen programmers doing nothing but code for FreeBSD all day?

The foundation only oversees the general structure and approves additions or modifications. It's users like you who do the actually coding.


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> This has never stopped anyone from contributing.
> 
> 
> Who do you think actually writes the code? Do you think it's some sort of company that has a few dozen programmers doing nothing but code for FreeBSD all day?


No, and this is the reason becouse under a suberb coded OS there are half of the tools that are poor crap. Starting from the not so brilliant actual port management tools, especially the graphical ones. And BTW Portmaster and Portupgrade are not that great too. Archlinux Pacman is definitely better code, IMHO. It even have, starting from version 4, something that in a fragment package management like the ports in FreeBSD could be really important: PGP author and code verification.


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

piggy said:
			
		

> No, and this is the reason becouse under a suberb coded OS there are half of the tools that are poor crap.



Submit patches or improvements. Even you can do that. No need to be part of the foundation.

Here are a few other projects you could sink your teeth in: http://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> Submit patches or improvements. Even you can do that. No need to be part of the foundation.
> 
> Here are a few other projects you could sink your teeth in: http://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage


I don't want submit nothing for now. I just want they think about improving them OS like me and a lot of users ask for: better ports management, if possible a revision of the very old ports structure, with an official building tool replacing the third party Portmaster and Portupgrade often not efficient and a graphical binary package manager with a constantly updated binary server.

It is of no use you still point me to other resources: you are OT, it is not the original subject of my post.


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

You can post your suggestions to the @freebsd-ports mailing list.


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## piggy (Jan 24, 2012)

SirDice said:
			
		

> You can post your suggestions to the @freebsd-ports mailing list.


I'm sure some of them read here too.


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## SirDice (Jan 24, 2012)

Not many do and all of them are on the mailing list.


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## phoenix (Jan 24, 2012)

Okay, this thread has gone around and around and around in circles enough times, with everyone beating their heads against the same points over and over and over again.

I'm closing this thread before it fully devolves into name calling and hair pulling.


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