# Employers, Jobs and *BSD



## Deleted member 53988 (Jul 16, 2018)

Hi,

What is the opinion of employers about *BSD?

There is reason for to learn use *BSD to find job?

If not, why?

If there is not reason for to learn use *BSD to find job, why use *BSD?


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## Phishfry (Jul 16, 2018)

Ninja_Root said:


> What is the opinion of employers about *BSD?


I work in a low tech area but we have military contractors with IT jobs. None of them have ever advertised any *BSD.
DoD like to keep it official with RH and Oracle. Some SQL'ish jobs because of big data.


Ninja_Root said:


> There is reason for to learn use *BSD to find job?


If you can administer a FreeBSD box then a Linux box is not much different. But do you want to be a sysadmin or a graphics designer. You havn't stated.
From my experience FreeBSD makes you a much more capable sysadmin.
Compared to an equivalently trained Windows guy you look like a rocket scientist.

I am backdooring my way into the industry. I am older and want to pick and choose my jobs to do what I want.
So consultant has been a good transition. Embedded jobs are mostly setup. So short term contract work.
FreeBSD is not paying my bills but I could see retiring to consulting.
You really have to build a reputation.
Have a Github repository ready to show off. Make some useful software. Show up with a good attitude. Be flexible.



Ninja_Root said:


> If there is not reason for to learn use *BSD to find job, why use *BSD?


Do you realize how bad Windows is. Why would you not use a better FREE alternative.
Let alone NanoBSD and the plethoria of other cool FreeBSD offshoots.
Think about it. An embedded OS design kit built right in your source tree. Plus there is a PicoBSD tree.

What are your alternatives? Windows or Linux. Have fun.


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## Phishfry (Jul 16, 2018)

I saw this 70 year old guy at the Walmart late night servicing the cash register/scanner/scales. 
He had a NCR vest on.
NCR is "National Cash Register" a big name in POS.
They used to be good paying jobs, but looking at this guy I just wondered how low they had slipped.

So crux is (if your young) What may appear like a fat job with long term job turns into working at Walmart at midnight.

I used to say 'get a hard trade' and then enjoy computers. But those days are long gone.
Trade schools are now diploma mills for Veterans and others that take on huge debt for little reward.


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## Deleted member 53988 (Jul 16, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> If you can administer a FreeBSD box then a Linux box is not much different. But do you want to be a sysadmin or a graphics designer. You havn't stated.



Phishfry,

There is reason for to learn use *BSD to be a sysadmin or a graphics designer?


If not, why?


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## Phishfry (Jul 16, 2018)

Well almost every professional Art Department I have ever walked into has uses MAC-Apple.
So no, FreeBSD would not be the best platform for a graphics designer job.
Look at the ads for them. The toolkit is all Adobe.

Whereas sysadmin is a wide ranging term encompassing many things.
Can be a mixed env with MAC, PC and LInux, with NAS4Free or maybe Network Administrator or Storage Specialist..
Just pick something you like and study it. You might be rewarded one day.
Life is a crapshoot. What are you happy doing? Can you do it as a job for 40 years.

My Mom is still working at 70+ writing C-class resumes and other employment services.
She is doing it not because she has to but because she likes it.
She is in the prime of her career and she started out a Prudential girl stuffing punchcards into a mainframe.
She is a Windows freak and it annoys me, but she is so successful I can't even try to ween her off. My poor Dad the IT tech.


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## Phishfry (Jul 16, 2018)

Ok, Here is my two bit advice. Get some paper. Here in the USA, I would say a 2 year Degree is minimum.
Nothing fluffy, something real general IT. Not a MSCE or Cisco Certified Engineer.
Cyber security seems to be a scam word these days aimed at youngsters by the ITT's of the "diploma mills".

How about this one: Medical IT.
These guys are not going anywhere. Healthcare is a forever job. Lots of tech. Needs a degree.


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## Deleted member 53988 (Jul 16, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> Well almost every professional Art Department I have ever walked into has uses MAC-Apple.
> So no, FreeBSD would not be the best platform for a graphics designer job.
> Look at the ads for them. The toolkit is all Adobe.
> 
> ...



Phishfry,

There is reason for to learn use *BSD to find all other IT jobs?

If not, why?


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## Phishfry (Jul 16, 2018)

Well no reason not to learn FreeBSD at all lets make that clear. This is not a dead end but a starting lane.


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## Deleted member 53988 (Jul 16, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> Well no reason not to learn FreeBSD at all lets make that clear. This is not a dead end but a starting lane.



Phishfry,

But there is reason for to learn use all others BSD operating systems (NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD and derivatives) to be a sysadmin and to find all other IT jobs?

If not, why?


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## Phishfry (Jul 16, 2018)

Like I said I am not in the field, So I will digress here. Good Luck. You seem to be looking for an answer I can't provide.
Look at career sites like Indeed.com. Just troll through and look what the professional world is looking for....
Whatever you do, Stay away from the places on Indeed.
They are usually sweatshops that have bad management and have to advertise to draw fresh blood.
It does give a good indication of what is needed in today's corporate tech world. I prefer around the corner Mom and Pops.


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## Phishfry (Jul 16, 2018)

Ninja_Root said:


> But there is reason for to learn use all others BSD operating systems (NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD and derivatives) to be a sysadmin and to find all other IT jobs?


I haste to call it a reason. I like to think of myself as a self taught computer scientist.
I am inquisitive about certain areas of modern computers and indulge myself in them.
If you are a serious about computers for a living I would defiantly learn some other BSD's.
Just because there is no job requirment for it does not mean it is a waste.
For instance as much as I love FreeBSD recently I considered converting my firewall from pfSense to OpenBSD.
Truthfully I feel no regret for considering it at all.
It's all about using the right tools for the job. But having the skill to deploy it is another thing.
FreeBSD and OpenBSD while similar, they are also quite different. Why not learn it in case quizzed at an job interview.
A little bit of knowege can go a very long way. Just don't get carried away.


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## ralphbsz (Jul 16, 2018)

Ninja_Root said:


> What is the opinion of employers about *BSD?


I presume you are talking about employers in the computer and IT industry; for employers and jobs such as catching fish, being a medical doctor, or playing the oboe in the symphony orchestra, BSD is not relevant (nor is Windows or Linux, for that matter).

So let me answer the question in two separate parts.

One: Do many employers use BSD?  No.  Most commercial computers run Linux, followed by Windows, followed by commercial Unixes (HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, ...), and the market share of BSD is tiny (roughly 1%).  If someone has BSD-specific skills, that is not relevant.  There is a very small set of BSD-specific employers (iXsystems for example), and there is a small set of companies that use BSD (such as Netflix, Juniper and NetApp), but they typically hire generalists, not people who only know BSD.

Two: Employers like to hire people with skills.  The most important skill that employers look for is the ability to learn and grow.  If you want to be a programmer, sys admin, software engineer, product manager, SRE, and so on, you have to demonstrate general computer skills.  Ideally, on a wide variety of platforms.  So learning to use computers on a BSD machine helps demonstrate the breadth of skills, and the ability and willingness to learn new ones.  That's the same as programming languages: In a modern software engineer job, C++, Java, and a good scripting language are pretty much mandatory, but there it helps to demonstrate mastery of Haskell, SQL, Go, assembly, and so on.



> There is reason for to learn use *BSD to find job?


For computer-related jobs: Yes, see above.  Although honestly, many of the same skills can be learned on Linux too.  And for specific sys admin skills, since most employers use Linux, and few use BSD, learning Linux has advantages.

Graphic design is a different set of skills, in which the computer part is not terribly relevant.  Same with playing the oboe in a symphony orchestra: the employer will want to know how you sound on the oboe, not whether you know how to mount a ZFS file system.  But again, a breadth of skills is important: a good oboe player needs to understand music theory, know how to conduct, a little composition doesn't hurt either.  The need to play music in a variety of styles, from baroque to Queen.  And being able to double on trombone or viola wouldn't hurt either.



> If there is not reason for to learn use *BSD to find job, why use *BSD?


Because it is useful.  For example, I have a set of computing problems that I need to solve in my house: firewall and router for the internal network, store files and documents, make the printers accessible, and so on.  For that I need a computer, a.k.a. server.  In my opinion, BSD is best at doing that (whether OpenBSD or FreeBSD is a fascinating discussion), but that's just my personal opinion.  Other people could use Linux or Windows for the same purpose, depending on their taste and their skills.


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## kpedersen (Jul 16, 2018)

Knowing and using FreeBSD shows passion, self-research and initiative. Even if FreeBSD is not used at a company, sometimes passion, self-research or initiative are desirable qualities.

Its kinda like when Java houses prefer a developer who also has knowledge of C / C++. It shows that they have gone a little bit more distance in their art than the rest.

I personally find it a good talking point at interviews. If I can get them to start discussing the pros and cons of alternative operating systems, I can reduce the time spent on the tricky stuff like proving that I am a remotely fun person with a nice character haha. That said, control the argument well, don't come across as a religious fanatic who will refuse to use any other technology. No-one will hire "that guy" (Unless of course you no longer want the job because the company has proven to be a soulless Microsoft shim. Interviews do work both ways).


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## Deleted member 53988 (Jul 16, 2018)

ralphbsz said:


> I presume you are talking about employers in the computer and IT industry; for employers and jobs such as catching fish, being a medical doctor, or playing the oboe in the symphony orchestra, BSD is not relevant (nor is Windows or Linux, for that matter).



ralphbsz,

I am talking about employers in the computer and IT industry.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 16, 2018)

I left the best company I ever worked for 25 years ago thinking I was expanding my horizons when it actually dinged me for a while. The reason it was great for me was because it was the first place that ever put unquestioning faith into my decisions as to how to build our product. I was Senior Electronic Engineer, true, but, in the past, I only followed orders and never chose the path myself. In this case, I chose a bus system for a 68000-based small medical computer instead of a single motherboard. This decision was contrary to the thinking of the day and would increase manufacturing cost of the unit by 20% while using a Motorola processor instead of Intel. However, I had noticed a lot of time was being spent taking apart this medical device to swap out motherboards whenever there was a repair or an upgrade no matter how simple.

The only person who ever questioned me about this was the project manager for the mechanical build. He only wanted to double check that it was what I really wanted to do considering the price jump. My stomach was a little queasy but it was my gut that told me this was the right thing to do and that product is used to this day by half of all surgeons throughout the country (at a minimum).

My point is ...

Too many decisions are made based on popularity, not technical prowess. Choosing an OS or piece of software because everyone uses it should make one feel morbid and uneasy at best.


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## Phishfry (Jul 17, 2018)

I would like to critique some of my responces. They were off the cuff.


Phishfry said:


> So no, FreeBSD would not be the best platform for a graphics designer job.
> Look at the ads for them. The toolkit is all Adobe.


While this is true the fact of the matter is if you are an artsy type it does not matter what you use.
You might need a little Photoshop to get in the door but once proven no one will care what you use to make your art.
Gimp is probably a usable tool these days and as long as you can produce graphics that can "interact' with the Mac/Windows toolschain then yes. You can use FreeBSD to be a graphics designer.
Throw in some Inkscape for vector art and you have half the adobe suite.
Many employers would want to see your portfolio in the art world. Same with CAD jobs.

My whole gist is you can be a graphics designer from your couch. Make the right connections and do freelance work.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 17, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> I work for 'the man' and I am pissed that I made my companies owner rich(er).


Walk a mile in their shoes, and mine, and you wouldn't say that.


Phishfry said:


> Sign one sheet of paper saying "everything you know intellectually belongs to the company" and you realize.
> These f#ckers think they own your intellect.


That's not what those say. It's intellectual property arising from the job, not your intellect.


Phishfry said:


> Non-compete clauses


They have their place and their need. They can get in the way for some people sometimes but most of us aren't in a position where it becomes a problem.


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## ShelLuser (Jul 17, 2018)

In my opinion this isn't necessarily about FreeBSD perse but more so about learning and understanding Unix. Of course that by itself is a rather vague statement because you don't "learn Unix"; there's a _huge_ difference between, say, AIX or Solaris. And the BSD's for that matter.

But becoming familiar with the mindset and managing to find your way around on your own, that's a different ballgame. Knowing your basics will allow you to manifest yourself on most Unix(-like) environments. Well, maybe not Linux perse because their documentation (both manual and info pages) are often quite poor.

But the more professional environments... most definitely.

And that can definitely help.


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## Phishfry (Jul 17, 2018)

Yes I axed that part. It is how I really feel. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. There is no trickle down effect.
True 'the man' takes all the risk.


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## ShelLuser (Jul 17, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> Yes I axed that part. It is how I really feel. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. There is no trickle down effect.
> True 'the man' takes all the risk.


This is probably a discussion we should reserve for another thread, but even so: context really matters. I run my own (small!) company and sure: I get 'richer' when I can sell something someone does for us. But I also take the most risks. When my company goes down under then any employees (which we don't have, we only hire whenever we need to) have a failsafe they can use: social services.

Myself on the other hand have to take out an ensure to cover for all that. Which only digs into my eventual profit and which reduces my margins. And even then that insurance will only pay my bills for so long.

When you get a job you sign an agreement, so you can easily know up front what you're getting yourself into. And like it or not but what's good for the company will eventually also be good for you. At the least you'll still be having your job but at best you may also see a raise in salary over time.

And I know; it doesn't always work this way. In larger companies there's definitely a rather static and stiff culture. But even there the basic rules still apply.

Totally offtopic: maybe it helps ease your mind but if there's one thing I learned over time its that people who earn more also tend to spend more. Sometimes even up to a point where they blindly rely on their income for that. Yeah... so what happens when that income suddenly dries up? "oops".

Then, for some people at least, things go downhill _really_ fast.

Now that I mentioned my own company...  We replaced 2 Win2k8 servers with 3 FreeBSD servers and we never looked back


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## Phishfry (Jul 17, 2018)

How about the OP look at the local UNIX Users Groups and even Linux Users Groups.
It is a great place to hear about good employers in your area from other people working in the trade.
Do some networking and you might find a lead there. These are usually monthly meetings.
Be prepared to stand up and introduce yourself.
http://www.fug.com.br/


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## Phishfry (Jul 26, 2018)

I got a real chuckle looking at craigslist today. That NCR job is up for grabs.
They are called "NCR Customer Engineer"
https://norfolk.craigslist.org/tch/d/ncr-customer-engineer/6646861394.html

25 years ago these guys were paid well.
Now look how progressive the company is:
Experience on Windows XP, Windows 2000 operating systems required
$16-$19 per hour


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## Phishfry (Jul 26, 2018)

OK I don't mean to come crashing into this thread but I have a company in my area that advertises alot,
On craigslist alot.
The ads are like, Come hang out and chill.... So I really didn't take them serious, Then I see they are a national hosting company.
Can anybody give me the scoop on *InMotion Hosting* out of LA,CA.?
They are always advertising but the jobs sounded too good to be true.
The place must be a meatgrinder looking at the ad volume, or really hurting.
Please any insight on this open source software -advertising employer:
https://norfolk.craigslist.org/sof/d/junior-php-developer/6642544338.html

This ad is pretty straight forward. About a month ago they were really loose standards for some positions.


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## drhowarddrfine (Jul 26, 2018)

They've been around for quite a while and once were a respectable host but I think they've gone downhill and are not recommended anymore except for amateurs but that's my impression only.


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## Nicola Mingotti (Jul 28, 2018)

my 5 centst to the original Ninja_Root question.
[**] highly opinionated, based on my experiences.

0] When i was sysadmin, my employer had a good knowledge of Unix systems and he liked a lot *BSD. [I was a Debian addict at that time]

If your employer is a computer educated person reading
you are experienced in *BSD may rise his curiosity. 
What i would first think if i was your employer is:

1] [+] You are interested about computer/Unix systems, so much that
you left the mainstream (Linux) and got to invest your time a more niche product.

2] [+] BSD are documented systems. This shows that probably you are
more inclined to study documentation and understand things  (man pages) than copying 
blogs recipes and appling the Linux golden rule: parse blogs | chat | try&pray.

3] [+] Since it is difficult to meet BSD people in person  (more difficult than Linux) you probably leanrt alone, which implies in future you will be able to solve new problems alone, or at least, you will not be afraid to try to solve problems alone.

4] [+/-] everybody knows that BSD is more organized and ordered than Linux, if 
you like BSD it may show that you enjoy ordered things, so much that you 
can sacrifice the last shiny new features for it.

5] [-] If you chose BSD over Linux it may shows you don't like some parts of Linux,
this can be a problem, since most probably you will be required to work on some Linux distribution.

EXTRA. When i was sysadmin we had the freedom to choose the operating system we liked most to realize a service we were responsible for. At that point of illumination your employer will know the OS you choose is not much relevant, the important is the service will be up and running and you document well how you got it running; you will be evaluated on that parameter. ==> If you know more than one OS it is better, it shows you can change the toolset to what fits your needs.


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## fryshke (Aug 12, 2018)

Phishfry said:


> no one will care what you use to make your art.


Excepot the printers that will expect cmyk


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## Phishfry (Aug 12, 2018)

You get what I am saying. A uncompressed TIF is the same regardless of platform. What matters is the quality of the content.
Can you work in the Window/Mac flow without sounding like an elitist. These people are not going to bend for you. You have to adapt.


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