# Making a freebsd workstation



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

I'm coming from archlinux. I have a couple of questions that i would like to resolve before i do the actual installation. This is not my first install on hardware and i currently have a freebsd vm that i made just to check out the installation process. I will use zfs. My first question is regarding xinit and my window manager of choice- dwm. After the install i will log in as root and setup doas for my normal user. After that i will install xorg, some other stuff and i will git clone dwm, dmenu and st from suckless.org. Then i will run desktop-installer and i will setup the firewall and other stuff but i wont choose a de or a display manager. After that, do I just copy the .xinitrc file into my home dir and replace the last few lines to launch dwm, my compositor and my polkit or is there something else that I need to do? Are there any services that i need to enable? I couldnt get it to work on my openbsd vm. If i add my normal user to wheel, should i also add it to operator, since i only plan on having one user other than root? 
My machine has hybrid graphics but i will only be using my nvidia card... Can i install the drivers with pkg or do i need to go to the nvidia website?
I'm a student and I'm learning dotnet development with C#, which was not a problem on linux. Now I was thinking that i could make a linux jail and have dotnet there? I'm new to jails... Could I make an archlinux jail and if i could would it slow down my machine? What kind of resources does a jail have at its disposal in terms of cpu threads, graphics, ram etc.?
For other development i normally use nvim and vscode, so I'll do that on freebsd.
I dont do much gaming but somebody on reddit told me that they got the witcher 3 to work on freebsd with proton. Is that the case?


----------



## Snurg (Mar 12, 2021)

Hybrid graphics might be difficult, depending on your hardware (which you didn't tell).
My impression is that the postinstallers around that I have looked at don't handle such configurations, which potentially might result in the need for you to do that manually.

What I like about jails, is that they are an effective form of virtualization that avoids a lot of redundancy (OS overheads in runtime and memory etc). (Of course, this doesn't go too well with CPU and RAM manufacturers, who prefer bloaty solutions)
But for running another OS you'll need a virtual machine.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Mar 12, 2021)

gomster said:


> i will git clone dwm, dmenu and st


Aren't these already a package and port? Well, dwm and dmenu are. I forgot if st is but I bet it is.


----------



## tuxador (Mar 12, 2021)

I would advise you to use dsmbd for managing removable media, and networkmgr as a gui for your wireless connection.


----------



## olli@ (Mar 12, 2021)

*dwm* ― It’s in the ports collection and available as package. No need to fetch it via git and build it yourself.
*xinitrc* ― Yes, it should work as you described.
*operator* ― The operator group enables you to use the shutdown(8) and poweroff(8) commands. It also has permissions to access certain devices in /dev; this is meant to enable operators to create backups (e.g. run dump(8) on a partition) and things like that. So you don’t have to use sudo, super, doas or similar tools for that.
*Nvidia* ― You can install the driver with pkg.
*jails* ― These are not VMs, they are more light-weight. You can think of them as some sort of chroot(1) with additional restrictions. Jails will use the same memory and processor resources as the rest of the system (although you can assign dedicated cores or CPU threads to a jail if you want). You should be able to create a jail that contains a Linux base system like archlinux. It will not slow down the machine. The FreeBSD Handbook has an extensive chapter on jails; that’s probably a good introduction if you’re new to jails.


----------



## shkhln (Mar 12, 2021)

gomster said:


> somebody on reddit told me that they got the witcher 3 to work on freebsd with proton


Where?


----------



## matt_k (Mar 12, 2021)

gomster said:


> I dont do much gaming but somebody on reddit told me that they got the witcher 3 to work on freebsd with proton. Is that the case?


Somebody even managed to run steam on FreeBSD via linux compatibility layer, but if you plan on playing games, IMHO a much better solution is to do a dualboot with windows, which is much more elegant/simple than trying to force gaming on FreeBSD.


----------



## shkhln (Mar 12, 2021)

Oh, for fuck's sake, everybody and their dog already knows about Windows and dual boot. You don't even realize how little additional infrastructure gaming actually requires in comparison with, say, browser usage. Gamepad drivers is only thing I can think of, actually.


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

drhowarddrfine said:


> Aren't these already a package and port? Well, dwm and dmenu are. I forgot if st is but I bet it is.


Yeah there are packages but i will git clone regardless


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

shkhln said:


> Oh, for fuck's sake, everybody and their dog already knows about Windows and dual boot. You don't even realize how little additional infrastructure gaming actually requires in comparison with, say, browser usage. Gamepad drivers is only thing I can think of, actually.


I dont really like windows and also this post wasnt really about gaming, that was kind of a side question as i do not intend to use this system for gaming(i wrote that dont really game much)


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

shkhln said:


> Where?


Private messages


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

tuxador said:


> I would advise you to use dsmbd for managing removable media, and networkmgr as a gui for your wireless connection.


I’ll check it out thank you


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

olli@ said:


> *dwm* ― It’s in the ports collection and available as package. No need to fetch it via git and build it yourself.
> *xinitrc* ― Yes, it should work as you described.
> *operator* ― The operator group enables you to use the shutdown(8) and poweroff(8) commands. It also has permissions to access certain devices in /dev; this is meant to enable operators to create backups (e.g. run dump(8) on a partition) and things like that. So you don’t have to use sudo, super, doas or similar tools for that.
> *Nvidia* ― You can install the driver with pkg.
> *jails* ― These are not VMs, they are more light-weight. You can think of them as some sort of chroot(1) with additional restrictions. Jails will use the same memory and processor resources as the rest of the system (although you can assign dedicated cores or CPU threads to a jail if you want). You should be able to create a jail that contains a Linux base system like archlinux. It will not slow down the machine. The FreeBSD Handbook has an extensive chapter on jails; that’s probably a good introduction if you’re new to jails.


Thanks for explaining. I’ll read the handbook


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

I


matt_k said:


> Somebody even managed to run steam on FreeBSD via linux compatibility layer, but if you plan on playing games, IMHO a much better solution is to do a dualboot with windows, which is much more elegant/simple than trying to force gaming on FreeBSD.


I dont really plan on playing games. I wrote that i dont play much... I regret asking that now since people got fixated on this question that i asked out of curiosity more than anything else. The post was meant as to how to set up a workstation(title) since i’m new to freebsd. I have had dual booted systems in the past and i’m not a big fan of them, however i agree with your statement that it would be  more elegant to dual boot for gaming. My question of gaming was more about the general possibility, since as you already know i’m new to this os.


----------



## shkhln (Mar 12, 2021)

gomster said:


> Private messages


Well, in that case this claim can't be validated.


----------



## Mjölnir (Mar 12, 2021)

Just my 2¢: since you come from _ArchL*x_ (implying some familiarity to set things up from scratch) & seem to prefer to build some SW on your own, IMHO you're a perfect candidate to use `1(2|3)-STABLE` on your workstation (you may want to use _quarterly_ ports(7), though).  Usually _stable_ runs fine, you'll learn how to use _the BeaSD_'s excellent build infrastructure, and you can help with testing & find bugs early.  The plan you outlined in your 1st post looks fine to me.  ports-mgmt/psearch or ports-mgmt/portfind will help you to find what you want.


----------



## olli@ (Mar 12, 2021)

gomster said:


> Yeah there are packages but i will git clone regardless


May I ask you for the reason?

In general, it is preferable to build software from the ports collection or install a pre-built package with pkg. The reason is that others have already put some effort into porting this software to FreeBSD, testing it within the FreeBSD ecosystem, and making sure that it works fine with FreeBSD and other software from the ports collection. FreeBSD ports often (almost always) contain patches that adapt the software to certain pecularities of FreeBSD, or even to take advantage of features that don’t exist on other systems. You won’t get all of this when you try to build the software yourself, and in some cases it won’t build at all, or exhibit certain bugs or malfunctions.

Therefore, I strongly recommend to use a ready-made package (or build the software from the ports collection, if you prefer). It will probably save time and trouble.


----------



## Phishfry (Mar 12, 2021)

I would like to add one huge advantage of ports or packages versus building software from its git source.
FreeBSD uses pkg audit(8) to keep track of all the software you have installed.

This is especially important when checking for software vulnerabilities.
When you install software from git or pip you now have software installed that is unregistered with the system.
What happens if you forget about this unregistered software and a vulnerability hits it? You are left flapping in the wind.
Using the official software channel helps your security posture.


----------



## bxbzq (Mar 12, 2021)

gomster said:


> I'm coming from archlinux. I have a couple of questions that i would like to resolve before i do the actual installation. This is not my first install on hardware and i currently have a freebsd vm that i made just to check out the installation process. I will use zfs. My first question is regarding xinit and my window manager of choice- dwm. After the install i will log in as root and setup doas for my normal user. After that i will install xorg, some other stuff and i will git clone dwm, dmenu and st from suckless.org. Then i will run desktop-installer and i will setup the firewall and other stuff but i wont choose a de or a display manager. After that, do I just copy the .xinitrc file into my home dir and replace the last few lines to launch dwm, my compositor and my polkit or is there something else that I need to do? Are there any services that i need to enable? I couldnt get it to work on my openbsd vm. If i add my normal user to wheel, should i also add it to operator, since i only plan on having one user other than root?
> My machine has hybrid graphics but i will only be using my nvidia card... Can i install the drivers with pkg or do i need to go to the nvidia website?
> I'm a student and I'm learning dotnet development with C#, which was not a problem on linux. Now I was thinking that i could make a linux jail and have dotnet there? I'm new to jails... Could I make an archlinux jail and if i could would it slow down my machine? What kind of resources does a jail have at its disposal in terms of cpu threads, graphics, ram etc.?
> For other development i normally use nvim and vscode, so I'll do that on freebsd.
> I dont do much gaming but somebody on reddit told me that they got the witcher 3 to work on freebsd with proton. Is that the case?


Out of curiosity, do you plan to just learn programming, or to run some scientific computing software on the FreeBSD workstation?


----------



## scottro (Mar 12, 2021)

The dwm port  is one of the few packages for which I use the port. Install the ports tree.
`portsnap fetch extract`
Take any patches you may want--for example, I use the move-resize patch (these days, I think it's available as a diff) and put the patch file in /usr/ports/x11-wm/dwm.

Customize your config.h as you want it.  Then cd into /usr/ports/x11-wm/dwm and run
`make DWM_CONF='~myusername/config.h' install clean.`

Otherwise, I think you will have issues building it on FreeBSD as there are Linux-specific things in the code (though I could be wrong about that.  I've not done it from source on FreeBSD in so long, I've forgotten since it's so easy to customize from ports.) The ports will also open dialogs asking if youi want st and dmenu installed. You can choose not to install them. Also, you can install st the same way, with an ST_CONFIG=config.h inserted into the make file.

If you like playing around with fixing C code, then of course you can build it yourself, but if you want to get it up and running quickly, I'd use the port.  There is, as you'll see all over the forum, some danger in mixing ports and packages, but I install everything from packages save dwm, which I install from ports and it's fine.

I have a dated page on it--glancing over the page, I have to update the installing on FreeBSD part. The page is somewhat dated, but possibly worth it a Debian forums post where they go through config.h, explaining all of it.


			Using dwm
		


Now that I see how dated that page is, I will almost certainly update installing on FreeBSD soon, maybe even today.
EDIT. Yeah, I updated the installing of FreeBSD part.


----------



## Argentum (Mar 12, 2021)

gomster said:


> I'm coming from archlinux. I have a couple of questions that i would like to resolve before i do the actual installation. This is not my first install on hardware and i currently have a freebsd vm that i made just to check out the installation process. I will use zfs. My first question is regarding xinit and my window manager of choice- dwm. After the install i will log in as root and setup doas for my normal user. After that i will install xorg, some other stuff


Why don't you use something more advanced. In fact you can install different WM-s at the same time and use them by choice and mood. I have installed MATE, XFCE and KDE Plasma to the same machine and using x11/sddm as a login manager. SDDM allows you to choose the WM before login from menu. As a backup, I have also x11/slim installed and ready to run if something happens with SDDM (it has happened once when upgrading).


gomster said:


> My machine has hybrid graphics but i will only be using my nvidia card... Can i install the drivers with pkg or do i need to go to the nvidia website?



The best way to do it is to install graphics/drm-fbsd12.0-kmod. If cards are not conflicting, it should recognize both video adapters. I have tried this once. Conflicting means of the same type. So, if your on-board graphics is Intel or AMD, it may work with Nvidia at the same time because DRM loads different GPU modules.


----------



## olli@ (Mar 12, 2021)

Argentum said:


> The best way to do it is to install graphics/drm-fbsd12.0-kmod. If cards are not conflicting, it should recognize both video adapters. I have tried this once. Conflicting means of the same type. So, if your on-board graphics is Intel or AMD, it may work with Nvidia at the same time because DRM loads different GPU modules.


Actually that’s not necessary when you just want to use the Nvidia GPU and ignore other GPUs present in the system. Simply install the Nvidia driver only. If there are multiple Nvidia GPUs, the Nvidia driver picks all of them up automatically, and you will be able to configure them with the `nvidia-settings` utility.


----------



## Argentum (Mar 12, 2021)

olli@ said:


> Actually that’s not necessary when you just want to use the Nvidia GPU and ignore other GPUs present in the system. Simply install the Nvidia driver only. If there are multiple Nvidia GPUs, the Nvidia driver picks all of them up automatically, and you will be able to configure them with the `nvidia-settings` utility.


Oh! I already forgot that Nvidia is a black sheep!


----------



## olli@ (Mar 12, 2021)

Argentum said:


> Oh! I already forgot that Nvidia is a black sheep!


Depends on your point of view. For me, Nvidia cards work exceptionally well with FreeBSD, are easy to set up, and support some things that the others don’t (e.g. multi GPU support doesn’t work with Intel or AMD, as far as I know).


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

shkhln said:


> Well, in that case this claim can't be validated.


yeah i guess not


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

bxbzq said:


> Out of curiosity, do you plan to just learn programming, or to run some scientific computing software on the FreeBSD workstat
> 
> 
> olli@ said:
> ...


----------



## gomster (Mar 12, 2021)

bxbzq said:


> Out of curiosity, do you plan to just learn programming, or to run some scientific computing software on the FreeBSD workstation?


Well i'm constantly learning something. What exactly did you mean by scientific computing? If you meant machine learning/ai, then the answer is yes. Data science, not really as of right now


----------



## Mjölnir (Mar 12, 2021)

gomster said:


> Well i'm constantly learning something. What exactly did you mean by scientific computing? If you meant machine learning/ai, then the answer is yes. Data science, not really as of right now


I know it's not very trendy, but should you want to use GNU-Prolog (the only conformant free open source Prolog implementation I'm aware of), I'm sorry it does not pass the tests...

```
| ?- validate.
Testing directives Section 7.4
Goal: setof(_82,mf7_4(_82),_86)
gave unexpected value: [mf2]
expected value: [mf1,mf2]
Done testing section 7.4.
Starting tests for Section 7.8
...
```
plus some minor flaws with floating point precision - likely minor things.  I'm investigating that, focussing on the *setof/3* topic, hopefully I'll find a fix.  If you want to chime in, drop me a note.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Mar 12, 2021)

I realize you've got experience with Arch and aren't a beginner but I've got a Beginners Tutorial that covers a lot of basic questions you asked in your OP.

You can take what you find helpful and ignore the rest. I would stick to the ports tree or pkg for the programs I installed as much as possible though if I were you.


----------



## bxbzq (Mar 13, 2021)

gomster said:


> Well i'm constantly learning something. What exactly did you mean by scientific computing? If you meant machine learning/ai, then the answer is yes. Data science, not really as of right now


By scientific computing, I mean those heavy load applications in areas like physics simulation or math modelling, for example, fluid analysis, stress analysis, electromagnetic analysis, etc, even CAD modelling. Since you say you are setting up a workstation, and typically a workstation is meant to be used for these applications. As far as I know, FreeBSD doesn't support those applications very well, if any support.


----------



## Mjölnir (Mar 13, 2021)

bxbzq said:


> By scientific computing, I mean those heavy load applications in areas like physics simulation or math modelling, for example, fluid analysis, stress analysis, electromagnetic analysis, etc, even CAD modelling. Since you say you are setting up a workstation, and typically a workstation is meant to be used for these applications. As far as I know, FreeBSD doesn't support those applications very well, if any support.


I'm sorry, don0^Ht wn^hant to offend you, but your statement is outright plain bullshit.  Period.
I'm sorry, don0^Ht wn^hant to offend you, but your statement is not accurate.  Period.

EDIT Telling _"don't want to offend"_, then using impolite words...  Welcome to _Contradictistan_.  What I had in mind is that there's a plethora of ports in $PORTSDIR/{astro,biology,cad,math,science}, e.g. science/py-tensorflow or math/labplot,  math/cantor & a whole buch of math/R-cran-* & math/octave-* as well as scientific libraries in C/C++ & other languages; and if a BSD'ized version for your desired application is not available, you can (in most cases) run it via the _Linuxolator_ or emulators/wine.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Mar 13, 2021)

bxbzq said:


> By scientific computing, I mean those heavy load applications in areas like physics simulation or math modelling, for example, fluid analysis, stress analysis, electromagnetic analysis, etc, even CAD modelling. Since you say you are setting up a workstation, and typically a workstation is meant to be used for these applications. As far as I know, FreeBSD doesn't support those applications very well, if any support.



The applications mentioned aren't part of my normal desktop use but FreeBSD supports the W520 I use very well and it's considered a workstation according to ThinkWiki:



> ThinkPad W: High-end mobile workstations for CAD and digital art, supersedes the entire T series 'p' variants.



Thinkpad W520
Intel Quad Core i7-2760QM @ 2.40GHz
8 GB RAM PC3-10600
Hitachi Travelstar 7K750 500GB HDD @ 7200 RPM
Nvidia Quadro 1000M with 2GB DDR3 and Optimus (in use)
15.6" TFT display with 1920x1080 (FHD) resolution with LED backlight

I have two with the same specs with the exception of a Gen 2 i7 upgrade on the other. I gott it for $286 delivered off ebay and it was most expensive of the two.


----------



## Mjölnir (Mar 13, 2021)

Trihexagonal, it's not about the hardware, but the applications.  That _stickybeak_ is just not aware that _the BeaSD_ is well capable to drive a scientific workstation, maybe (likely?) 'cause s/he's a _linuxinated_ creep.

Trihexagonal, it's not about the hardware, but the applications.  bxbzq is just not aware that _the BeaSD_ is well capable to drive a scientific workstation, maybe (likely?) 'cause s/he's not aware of the choices FreeBSD has to offer & what is available in the ports(7) tree.  See the corrected version of my previous post.

EDIT See my previous post.  Not only it's inappropriate to use rude language, even more embarrassing is that in most cases this in done _intentionally_ to push the receipient down & to raise oneself above, and I did...  I wish I had better written the corrected version, and/or went to bed earlier.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Mar 13, 2021)

Mjölnir said:


> Trihexagonal, it's not about the hardware, but the applications.
> That _stickybeak_ is just not aware that _the BeaSD_ is well capable to drive a scientific workstation, maybe (likely?)...



Yes, I know.



Trihexagonal said:


> The applications mentioned aren't part of my normal desktop use but FreeBSD supports the W520 I use very well and it's considered a workstation...


I just wanted it to be clear as far as hardware goes FreeBSD supports my workstation/.mp3 player.


----------



## bxbzq (Mar 13, 2021)

Mjölnir said:


> Trihexagonal, it's not about the hardware, but the applications.  That _stickybeak_ is just not aware that _the BeaSD_ is well capable to drive a scientific workstation, maybe (likely?) 'cause s/he's a _linuxinated_ creep.



I feel sorry for this community because of dickhead like you hanging around for opportunity to offend people.

Well capable of != well support.
Bolt is well capable of playing football doesn't mean he plays it very well.

I have no interests or intention to stir the pot, but you just can't face the simple fact. How many mainstream scientific computing software have FreeBSD distributions or are well supported by FreeBSD? How many of them can be properly installed by an ordinary IT guy within an hour?

I"m not from Linux world and am not coming to this forum to diminish FreeBSD. I just started learning FreeBSD as my hobby and find it very interesting. That said, it doesn't mean FreeBSD is meant to be for all types of application.

Damn, I feel my day is just ruined by a moron.


----------



## Mjölnir (Mar 13, 2021)

I have to sincerely say sorry.  I wrote unpolite words.  Period.  Not an excuse, but I had (at least) one  beyond what I can handle.  Don't let yourself get distracted by fools.


----------



## Snurg (Mar 13, 2021)

bxbzq said:


> As far as I know, FreeBSD doesn't support those applications very well, if any support.


True.
FreeBSD focus is servers.
Many reasons why there is little interest in using FreeBSD for graphical applications. I refrain from naming some, please understand I don't want to risk offending people.

Regarding Mjölnir 's behavior, I am speechless, too. I guess he must have had a drinking binge yesterday.
Not good to do that when online. But such things are rare here in the forums, luckily.


----------



## bxbzq (Mar 13, 2021)

Glad to see some sanity here in this forum.


----------



## drhowarddrfine (Mar 13, 2021)

bxbzq You'll find 99% of the time 99% of the people here are pretty chill, knowledgeable, decent and professional. Sometimes something grabs our craw and we speak up and sometimes we speak out due to lack of sleep or imbibing too much but the folks here are decent, moral, intelligent people who will help you the best they can.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Mar 14, 2021)

olli@ said:


> Actually that’s not necessary when you just want to use the Nvidia GPU and ignore other GPUs present in the system. Simply install the Nvidia driver only. If there are multiple Nvidia GPUs, the Nvidia driver picks all of them up automatically, and you will be able to configure them with the `nvidia-settings` utility.



Not all nvidia cards work with the nv driver presented during driver selection while building x11/xorg.

My Thinkpad T61 uses the x11/nvidia-driver-340 while my Thinkpad W520 with Optimus takes the x11/nvidia-driver-304 and needs set to Discreet in the BIOS to use nvidia.

I always install and run nvidia-xconfig first, too.


----------



## Mjölnir (Mar 14, 2021)

TWIMC I edited my rude posts.


----------



## sidetone (Sep 11, 2021)

FreeBSD does have a lot of scientific and mathematical programs/use. However, it lacks GPU computing needed for some advanced scientific/mathematical use. Meaning, mathematical/scientific computing that requires a graphics card.

For instance there's a lot in the science, astronomy and mathematical categories. There's also Python, which can be used for scientific computing. One that is missing is Julia: it was available for a short time.

While this is good, there's still a lot missing, including for GPU computing.

This detail is lacking from this conversation. There may be more, but this is what I know of.


Back to the topic of the desktop part of a workstation: Thread how-to-light-desktop-setup.64623. It's about 3 years old, but is still relevant for a lot.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Sep 11, 2021)

bxbzq said:


> Damn, I feel my day is just ruined by a moron.


As High Priest of the Yea BeaSD please accept my humble apology in his place. 

For I fear our Our Brother Mjolnir hath fallen victim to the Extra Evil purchased by Bill "Gates of Hell" from Satan. 

Twas twice three minus one months I caught him unaware in the Moon's pale glow, running to and fro, naked amongst the LQ forum flock following Spring Equinox. 

My menacing malevolence momentarily caused his senses to return, and when found himself free range running reckless in the midst of their flock, far from there he fled in a flash, to I knoweth not where. 

Remember him therefore in your Daily Rituals that he may return to us unharmed, where his mirth and humor are sorely missed by all.

Can I get an amen!


----------



## grahamperrin@ (Sep 19, 2021)

olli@ said:


> … The operator group enables you to use the shutdown(8) and poweroff(8) commands. …



Does suspend require _operator_, or does _wheel_ suffice?


----------



## bxbzq (Oct 12, 2021)

Trihexagonal said:


> As High Priest of the Yea BeaSD please accept my humble apology in his place.
> 
> For I fear our Our Brother Mjolnir hath fallen victim to the Extra Evil purchased by Bill "Gates of Hell" from Satan.
> 
> ...


Google translation doesn't tell me much, but, AMEN.


----------



## Deleted member 30996 (Oct 12, 2021)

bxbzq said:


> Google translation doesn't tell me much, but, AMEN.


That's because you don't see the big picture, and no fault of your own

You don't take nto account who I was addressing, my quote, haven't been around long enough know Mjolnir, what Ya BeaSD is from his posts or that I was appointed High Priest and speaking in that role.

So you don't know what I was talking about, it makes no sense to you and my apology as bxbzq incomprehensible for Google Translate as it is for you.

This has happened more than once lately. I believe I know why and will address it in the Stopping Something thread.


----------

