# Are FreeBSD developers ever going to start focusing on user facing stuff?



## thorbsd (Sep 4, 2013)

I loved using FreeBSD on my desktop, but it's unusable on my Dell XPS 15z laptop. I switched over to Linux, and everything works just fine.

I've posted to the driver mailing list twice with no response about getting the touchpad to work, I've got no idea if anyone is working on porting Bumblebee over (or working on code that works with the official nVidia drivers) so the Optimus nVidia card can be disabled, the LCD panel brightness buttons don't work, the DVD eject button doesn't work, and there is still no VT switching.

The touchpad is used in almost all the Dell XPS laptops, so surely there's a large number of people that would benefit from someone looking at fixing this problem.

No VT switching literally affects everyone. How could this still be disabled after more than a year? Is anyone even working on this?

Should I just accept that nobody working on FreeBSD has any desire to fix the problems laptop users face?


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## fonz (Sep 4, 2013)

Feel free to get your own hands dirty...


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## wblock@ (Sep 4, 2013)

Work is being done on updating the system console.  NVidia chooses to not provide programming information, which kind of makes the responsibility for support theirs.  What do they say about it?


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## thorbsd (Sep 4, 2013)

fonz said:
			
		

> Feel free to get your own hands dirty...



Nobody would (or should) accept any code I could contribute.



			
				wblock@ said:
			
		

> Work is being done on updating the system console.  NVidia chooses to not provide programming information, which kind of makes the responsibility for support theirs.  What do they say about it?



Optimus is supported in the official nVidia driver AFAIK, and now what's left is OS support for dynamically turning the card on and off.


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## jnbek (Sep 5, 2013)

I have been a loyal FreeBSD user for well over a decade. Over the years, I've seen it go from a wealth of development on all kinds of things, to either stupid political arguments over GPL code, blatant denial of any work done towards a number of newer devices and options that should have been in the kernel years ago: ext4 read-write, XFS that doesn't suck, and an XFS read-write, btrfs, touchpads, write ALSA to talk to FreeBSD, praise God for Pulseaudio, at least that offers some level of consistency. Well all this is GPL. And thus deemed unworthy of FreeBSD attention. It seems that when someone asks, the answer is always:

"Do it yourself."
"Get your hands dirty."
"Oh, so and so got started on it back in 2007, read this useless thread."
Sadly, this is putting the death nails into what was once THE vibrant OS. The only reason FreeBSD hasn't gone the way of the dodo yet, is because of PF and ZFS. Both I use, both are built like a brick shithouse. I wish more time was spent making native FreeBSD support for read-write capabilities for all the modern filesystems, graphics drivers, etc.

Mad? Bitter? No, I am in deep sadness seeing all the BSDs getting left behind, for what I see, as internal political bull. I LOVE FreeBSD, but advocating it is near impossible anymore, just the same 'Secure, Stable and Easy to Maintain and an unbeatable network stack' only goes so far, when asked about the brand new 11n card, or btrfs kernel support. <$/22.22>


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## fonz (Sep 5, 2013)

I've got half a mind to close this thread because we've already had this discussion several times before.

In a nutshell:

There are way more people who want stuff than people who can actually make it happen. Most people lack the skills, the time, the motivation or any combination thereof.
Only a few people get paid to work on specific things. Most of the time, whenever anyone makes a suggestion (or states a demand, or anything in between) but they can't (and/or don't want to) do it themselves, someone else is going to have to step up and say: _"Ok, that sounds like a good idea, I think I can do this and I *volunteer* to spend *my time* on it."_
It appears that people often forget this: *there are not a whole lot of developers on this forum*. If you want something done, you'll usually have a better chance asking on an appropriate mailing list. With only a few notable exceptions, that's where the developers hang out, not here. This is a user community, not a consultation office for developers or the FreeBSD Foundation.
When presenting your suggestions to the developers, keep in mind that most of them are volunteers. Talking with a sense of entitlement tends to rub them the wrong way.


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## wblock@ (Sep 5, 2013)

It's an old problem.  There are people who want things who are not able to create them themselves.  The solution has always been to either motivate others to create them, or learn to create them yourself.  The first is quicker, but might take money.


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## kpa (Sep 5, 2013)

The "developers" that you're referring to are mostly enthusiasts and IT professionals that have a $JOB to take care of first before they can put any effort into making FreeBSD better. They are in fact people just like you and me and the preferred way to improve things is to contribute yourself, either by providing feedback/bug reports or by contributing code/patches.

You really have to stop thinking that there's some central committee that approves/rejects everything that is proposed as an improvement to FreeBSD.


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## SirDice (Sep 5, 2013)

thorbsd said:
			
		

> The touchpad is used in almost all the Dell XPS laptops, so surely there's a large number of people that would benefit from someone looking at fixing this problem.


As far as I've been able to find out those models use a Synaptics touchpad. Have you tried x11-drivers/xf86-input-synaptics?


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## ShelLuser (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm not getting into this discussion in-depth because my opinion differs too heavily from yours (would be a fruitless discussion).

But:



			
				jnbek said:
			
		

> The only reason FreeBSD hasn't gone the way of the dodo yet, is because of PF and ZFS. Both I use, both are built like a brick shithouse.


Focussing on ZFS here.

I can't comment on the way it was built; the original port from Sun Solaris to FreeBSD was obviously done by FreeBSD developers, but rumour also has it that several Sun Solaris developers spent company resources on it. I tried to search the Net but couldn't really find anything to back all this up, but I think it does give a good impression. This PDF paper is also a good read. This wasn't something which people "just did".

Now, coming to my point. You should also keep in mind that these projects are constantly being worked on, it's not a static feature set which gets presented and then never heard from again.

If you read that original announcement you'll see that ZFS originally didn't work on AMD64, you couldn't boot from it, it didn't support ACL's and using iSCSI targets was also a no no.

I'm currently using an AMD64 based VPS running FreeBSD and it only uses ZFS. On top of that it also has no issues with ACL's any longer.

Which I think is something to keep in mind as well. And working on a file system is most certainly not an easy feat.


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## thorbsd (Sep 5, 2013)

SirDice said:
			
		

> As far as I've been able to find out those models use a Synaptics touchpad. Have you tried x11-drivers/xf86-input-synaptics?



Most of what I've seen from the last two generations of XPS is that they used a Cypress touchpad, which I know because I kept checking all the models for more up to date versions of compatible Windows drivers. Perhaps the older models and the current generation have gone back to Synaptic touchpads. 



			
				fonz said:
			
		

> I've got half a mind to close this thread because we've already had this discussion several times before.
> 
> In a nutshell:
> 
> ...



As I stated in my post, I've gone to the mailing lists twice now. Not much I can do as a user at this point except bring attention to the next most logical place: the Off-Topic forum. There's clearly a number of developers that spend time on all sorts of things, clearly none of which is stuff for the average laptop user. I gather this based on the fact that there have literally been no improvements to anything a laptop user would benefit from in over a year and a half.

When the forum is littered with requests for help with things, it's surprising that the developers don't seem to take notice. The logical thing to me, seeing that there is an actual FreeBSD Foundation that decides some of the work that gets done, is say "maybe we should take a step back for a bit" then realize that some of the massive projects can be pushed back for a bit and they could try to bang out some of the smaller problems that completely prevent users from using the system (such as porting a mouse driver).

I'm not here feeling entitled to anything, but I am expressing my frustration that there have been no tangible improvements in a year and a half. If you want people to contribute, the people who are already contributing need to find ways to encourage new people to come aboard. I can't even begin to help if my mouse doesn't work.


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## da1 (Sep 5, 2013)

The fact that there are more people that need stuff vs. people that can actually make them happen is true. Then again, there is also the $$$ problem.

I'm thinking on the other hand that if there would be enough people that require a certain feature, what would stop them from organizing a fund raiser (of course, talk to a developer beforehand) and then pay someone to get this feature imported. 

Do you guys think this would work?

PS: I'm one of those who are willing, alongside others, to pay for getting certain features imported.


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## zspider (Sep 5, 2013)

*Q*



			
				jnbek said:
			
		

> I have been a loyal FreeBSD user for well over a decade. Over the years, I've seen it go from a wealth of development on all kinds of things, to either stupid political arguments over GPL code, blatant denial of any work done towards a number of newer devices and options that should have been in the kernel years ago: ext4 read-write, XFS that doesn't suck, and an XFS read-write, btrfs, touchpads, write ALSA to talk to FreeBSD, praise God for Pulseaudio, at least that offers some level of consistency. Well all this is GPL. And thus deemed unworthy of FreeBSD attention. It seems that when someone asks, the answer is always:
> 
> "Do it yourself."
> "Get your hands dirty."
> ...



Wants alone are not usually a priority here, especially when those wants are Linuxisms. 

Also no offense, but if you aren't willing to assemble it yourself, then your destination is PC-BSD. Thank you drive through.


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## kpedersen (Sep 5, 2013)

For hardware related issues I say stop complaining and buy a ~2005 Thinkpad 

However I must wonder why FreeBSD is a little bit behind on a few things. Perhaps some choices have been made earlier on that are slowing down progress. Such as (comparing to OpenBSD)...

We seem to be quite a bit behind OpenBSD when it comes to X11 and display drivers (especially on Intel cards). Could the reason for this that we are trying too hard to use the upstream version of X.Org rather than forking it (ala Xenocara)? This thing with dbus, hald and AutoAddDevices that no-one really likes is perhaps another symptom? Is staying compatible with the binary Nvidia driver holding us up?
Suspend to RAM is failing on quite a few machines I have tried. The ones that do work usually have minor issues such as requiring workarounds for USB mice dying. Does this suggest a much deeper issue in the kernel? Every single one of these machines I have tested is working with OpenBSD. Perhaps because OpenBSD supports more architectures more focus has been put into compatibility (which extends to ACPI support)?
Personally I love the fact that GNOME 3 is not yet in ports, however I wonder why it isn't? Is our packaging system less flexible or more likely to have a larger number of collisions with other ports?
FreeBSD seems to me like quite a large project (i.e the workload isn't spread over too many Linux distributions, it is the most popular *BSD) so it shouldn't really be behind any of the other *BSDs in many aspects.

That said, for server use FreeBSD offers some great stuff (i.e VirtualBox, ZFS) so I wonder if the FreeBSD development roadmap is mostly planned around its use as a server OS rather than a workstation/desktop unlike e.g. OpenBSD (which would be a bit of a shame but would explain all the points above).

I like FreeBSD and literally use it for every machine I own. However I sometimes wonder if I am using it as intended


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## zspider (Sep 5, 2013)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> For hardware related issues I say stop complaining and buy a ~2005 Thinkpad
> 
> However I must wonder why FreeBSD is a little bit behind on a few things. Perhaps some choices have been made earlier on that are slowing down progress. Such as (comparing to OpenBSD)...
> 
> ...



Me too, I have a FreeBSD based file server, I have a FreeBSD based firewall and I have a FreeBSD laptop. I gave up on the suspend/hibernate functionality a long time ago, I've learned to live without it. I'll have to some research into OpenBSD.


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## wblock@ (Sep 5, 2013)

thorbsd said:
			
		

> When the forum is littered with requests for help with things, it's surprising that the developers don't seem to take notice. The logical thing to me, seeing that there is an actual FreeBSD Foundation that decides some of the work that gets done, is say "maybe we should take a step back for a bit" then realize that some of the massive projects can be pushed back for a bit and they could try to bang out some of the smaller problems that completely prevent users from using the system (such as porting a mouse driver).



Generally, developers solve problems they or their employers have.  Hardware drivers in particular are difficult to test without the actual hardware.  It's really hard to get motivated to take on someone else's problems for fun.  Most people have enough problems already.



> I can't even begin to help if my mouse doesn't work.



Install VirtualBox, install FreeBSD as a VM.  Your hardware is instantly compatible and it does not overwrite existing operating systems.  Also allows the use of more than one at a time.


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## kpedersen (Sep 5, 2013)

wblock@ said:
			
		

> Install VirtualBox, install FreeBSD as a VM.  Your hardware is instantly compatible and it does not overwrite existing operating systems.  Also allows the use of more than one at a time.



Hmm, I wonder. If USB passthrough works on VirtualBox (and you are using a USB mouse) could you install a Linux/Windows VM on a FreeBSD host and expect the mouse to work in the VM? That would be pretty weird.

!! a And then, use something like sysutils/synergy to make the mouse move on the host.

Obviously this would be an awesome solution!

Edit: Should also work for USB wifi dongles. The lengths I would go to just to use FreeBSD on incompatible hardware


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## wblock@ (Sep 5, 2013)

USB passthrough works from host to guest.  Making a Linux VM work as a device driver is probably going to be more difficult than porting a driver.


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 5, 2013)

Incompatible hardware is the hardware vendor's fault and not FreeBSD's but I had no issue building my new workstation using all new parts including an i7-3770 processor on a Gigabyte motherboard with nVidia graphics and so on.


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## Crest (Sep 6, 2013)

thorbsd said:
			
		

> I can't even begin to help if my mouse doesn't work.


Strange problem. I often forget to reattach my mouse to my desktop after using it to play on a laptop. It takes me a few minutes until *I* notice it is missing because some application can't be used without one. Neither i3, urxvt, Vim, Firefox, Chromium nor evince require a mouse for day to day usage.


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## sulman (Sep 6, 2013)

Laptops are jolly hard work. I've had more luck with Linux, but that's hardly surprising as in the last couple of years it has absolutely rocketed ahead in hardware support - it's probably (speculatively) only bested by Windows 8 for 'out of the box' hardware support. 

However, fundamentally, I'd use the same strategy as Linux, if one can: pick your hardware carefully. Pretty much anything with Nvidia is a good bet, apart from Optimus.

Touchpad and some function key support is irritating, but frankly it is only an annoyance. It will improve over time. I'm trying to develop the knowledge to contribute to some of these things, but I'm nowhere near yet.


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## throAU (Sep 6, 2013)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> Incompatible hardware is the hardware vendor's fault and not FreeBSD's but I had no issue building my new workstation using all new parts including an i7-3770 processor on a Gigabyte motherboard with nVidia graphics and so on.



Erm.

Incompatible hardware is the *system builder's* fault, for not checking the hardware compatibility list prior to purchase.  

Expecting the hardware vendor to support every OS ever made is unreasonable (And before people start with the "but why not the major ones?", bear in mind that Linux is barely a blip on the radar, and FreeBSD's share is even smaller than that.  If you expect them to support FreeBSD, why not Haiku, AROS or Plan9?  Where do we draw the line?).  Expecting an OS to support every piece of hardware ever made, on day of release is also unreasonable.

Whether the OS in question is Windows, FreeBSD, VMware ESXi, Linux, etc.

Sure, if the hardware specification was open, things would be easier, but often it is not.  There may be many reasons for this, be it licensed algorithms under NDA, perceived risk of losing a competitive advantage by giving away hardware implementation, or plain old "we want to keep it secret".  Whether they release specifications or not is the OEM's perogative.

It is the system builder's responsibility to ensure that hardware compatible with the intended OS is selected.

OS vendors don't do hardware compatibility testing and publish a HCL for fun.


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## vermaden (Sep 6, 2013)

thorbsd said:
			
		

> I loved using FreeBSD on my desktop, but it's unusable on my Dell XPS 15z laptop. I switched over to Linux, and everything works just fine.
> 
> I've posted to the driver mailing list twice with no response about getting the touchpad to work, I've got no idea if anyone is working on porting Bumblebee over (or working on code that works with the official nVidia drivers) so the Optimus nVidia card can be disabled, the LCD panel brightness buttons don't work, the DVD eject button doesn't work, and there is still no VT switching.
> 
> ...



Same thought here.

As I got new laptop recently FreeBSD is unusable on it as a desktop/workstation:
http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=41380

As my corporation also 'thinks' that Windows 7 is the 'standard' I use Windows 7 to boot and to provide 'drivers' for things like Nvidia Optimus and to use suspend/resume all the time and use FreeBSD directly on VirtualBox.

This way, although still far from perfect, it's more usable than running native FreeBSD.

As VirtualBox guest additions on FreeBSD do not support shared folders its very easy to fix that by adding a loopback Etherner adapter on Windows and add a network interface on VirtualBox with BRIDGE on that interface to have host-to-guest communication. I still use ZFS in that virtual machine for my data storage, so Windows is a 'guest' for Samba on FreeBSD to provide this data.

The VirtualBox graphics driver on the FreeBSD guest is also VERY SLOW and does not support acceleration (like VESA performance) but it's 'usable'.

Also VirtualBox save/resume of virtual machines has been broken on the FreeBSD host for about a year now, another thing to fix.

I can live without Nvidia Optimus on FreeBSD under one condition, that I would not have to disable it every time in the BIOS for FreeBSD to just boot. I do not use FreeBSD for gaming and if Intel graphics will be well supported on FreeBSD that is more than I need and I will have another OS (Linux/Windows) to use Optimus and Nvidia graphics with Optimus, but even that does not currently work.

I know that these things will be finally fixed, but probably in 2016 and not in 2014 even.

IMHO the FreeBSD Foundation should step up here and finally bring back the desktop/workstation to a usable state by founding the work if voluntary work is not up to the task anymore.


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## CurlyTheStooge (Sep 6, 2013)

I guess some of the posters have been bit too harsh with "go to mailing lists" responses to the OP. He said he posted twice on the driver mailing list without any response. Just saying, don't kill me now.

Regards.


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## SirDice (Sep 6, 2013)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> I like FreeBSD and literally use it for every machine I own. However I sometimes wonder if I am using it as intended


The hallmark of a true hacker is finding ways of using things that were never intended to be used like that


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## vermaden (Sep 6, 2013)

fonz said:
			
		

> Feel free to get your own hands dirty...



... and for that argument, I indeed did.

I wrote sysutils/automount from scratch and wrote sysutils/beadm from scratch.


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 6, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> Erm.
> 
> Incompatible hardware is the *system builder's* fault, for not checking the hardware compatibility list prior to purchase.


His complaint was that FreeBSD did not support the hardware. I agree, though, that it is relatively simple to find hardware that works well with FreeBSD.


> Expecting the hardware vendor to support every OS ever made is unreasonable


And expecting FreeBSD, on its own, to support every piece of hardware is even more unreasonable. That's the point I'm trying to address. Too many people blame FreeBSD for that when it's not their responsibility and it's the failure of the hardware vendors to supply drivers or drivers that we can work on ourselves.

Which, as I type this, I notice you are saying also.


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## kpa (Sep 6, 2013)

It can also be said that FreeBSD is a moving target for hardware vendors who would be willing to provide FreeBSD drivers for their products because of the ever changing kernel API. This is one area where FreeBSD could improve a lot making it easier to hardware vendors to provide drivers that don't have to recompiled and possibly adapted for the changed kernel API for every minor version upgrade. This would also open up the possibility to HW hardware vendors to provide binary only drivers that you could in principle trust to work in one binary driver per major version of FreeBSD fashion.


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## wblock@ (Sep 6, 2013)

It would be fine if hardware vendors just documented their equipment.  Drivers can then be produced without further commitment from the vendor, and it avoids the binary blob problem.


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## SirDice (Sep 6, 2013)

wblock@ said:
			
		

> It would be fine if hardware vendors just documented their equipment.  Drivers can then be produced without further commitment from the vendor, and it avoids the binary blob problem.



The problem is that this may not be allowed. Even if the hardware vendor wants to they may be limited by another party's intellectual property. Suppose VendorA uses components from VendorB and VendorB has put IP restrictions on it. Even if VendorA wants to provide any and all documentation needed to create a driver they may not be able to because of the restrictions put up by VendorB. We can complain about VendorA until we see green in the face but the actual problem is with VendorB.

I'm not saying I'm fine with that (discussions about IP restrictions will probably generate enough traffic to justify their own forum), just that I can understand why some vendors may not be allowed to provide the information we need.


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## h3z (Sep 6, 2013)

SirDice said:
			
		

> The problem is that this may not be allowed. Even if the hardware vendor wants to they may be limited by another party's intellectual property. Suppose VendorA uses components from VendorB and VendorB has put IP restrictions on it. Even if VendorA wants to provide any and all documentation needed to create a driver they may not be able to because of the restrictions put up by VendorB. We can complain about VendorA until we see green in the face but the actual problem is with VendorB.
> 
> I'm not saying I'm fine with that (discussions about IP restrictions will probably generate enough traffic to justify their own forum), just that I can understand why some vendors may not be allowed to provide the information we need.



Makes you wonder what would happen if the majority of open-source operating systems and distributions went libre. More, so if provided was a very clear list of known compatible hardware, next to a list of hardware awaiting vendor correspondence. The list would have to include complete working laptops.

But, this would never really be a concern for the vendors, since it would never happen.   
There just wouldn't be enough hardware variety. There would be one or two open-source systems hanging on to blobs, reaping the monopoly.


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## sossego (Sep 7, 2013)




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## Pushrod (Sep 8, 2013)

FreeBSD doesn't have a product management team or a strong dictator, at least as far as I know. Without those things, the effort by developers is put toward what the developer wants, which may not be what you want.

I do, unfortunately, see FreeBSD slowly becoming less and less relevant as time goes on. I continue to use it, but mostly out of laziness than anything else. I don't even know what version of FreeBSD my one box has. Probably 8.x or something.


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 8, 2013)

Pushrod said:
			
		

> I do, unfortunately, see FreeBSD slowly becoming less and less relevant as time goes on.


So I guess you think Netflix switching to FreeBSD was a blunder on their part.


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## kpa (Sep 8, 2013)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> So I guess you think Netflix switching to FreeBSD was a blunder on their part.



I doubt that Netflix needs FreeBSD as a desktop OS for their systems.


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## Pushrod (Sep 9, 2013)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> So I guess you think Netflix switching to FreeBSD was a blunder on their part.



Could be. I have a colleague that works there; I should ask him if he knows what motivated that decision.


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## KNOStic (Sep 9, 2013)

We've worked on a nice foolproof desktop based on FreeBSD and GNOME 2 and it's matured nicely except for a raft of natty hardware issues that we all know about. However, for older machines it can't be beat. And if only we'd been able to get funding to continue our project, we'd probably have QUITE the acceptable replacement for XP as well as older Apple machines that can't load anything newer than Snow Leopard. There's LOTS of people out there with these two issues. However, without money, I've had to go to work for one of the above mentioned companies and pretty much give up on the KNOS Project. For anyone curious as to what we've done, our website is still lit and the remaining people are about to release a new version in the coming weeks:

http://knosproject.com

As for myself, I won't stop using FreeBSD, I've invested too much time in it and have it right where I want a desktop environment to be. I've tried the other BSD's and FreeBSD is something I intend to stick with. I grew up on the original Slackware 2.0.8 and have a long history with Linux. No thanks to where they've gone since.

As to Netflix, I'm sure their reasoning for FreeBSD is the same as Yahoo and other major sites who cling to FreeBSD: it's reliable, it's secure and most importantly, it's STABLE.

If Netflix is looking for desktops though, they might want to have a look at ours since it's fully cooked and working.


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## sossego (Sep 9, 2013)

Well, well, well, @Pushrod, @drhowarddrfine, @kpa, and @KNOStic looks like we have the _*Doom and Gloom*_ team here. 






I seem to have little to no problem finding people to use FreeBSD as a desktop system. Perhaps using it in the schools may help.


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## CurlyTheStooge (Sep 9, 2013)

KNOStic said:
			
		

> As to Netflix, I'm sure their reasoning for FreeBSD is the same as *Yahoo* and other major sites who cling to FreeBSD: it's reliable, it's secure and most importantly, it's STABLE.



That's news of a forgotten past. Any links for current association of Yahoo with FreeBSD? They seemed to switch to Linux long ago.

Also see the discussion here: http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=13226

Regards.


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## throAU (Sep 9, 2013)

drhowarddrfine said:
			
		

> Too many people blame FreeBSD for that when it's not their responsibility and it's the failure of the hardware vendors to supply drivers or drivers that we can work on ourselves.
> 
> Which, as I type this, I notice you are saying also.



No, I'm not blaming FreeBSD.  I'm also not blaming the hardware vendors.  They have operating systems they provide support for, and it is entirely up to them how many resources they want to devote to any particular OS.

In the case of FreeBSD (or Linux, etc.) that amount is often zero - and that is their decision to make.

It's not anyone's "fault", I suspect it is an entirely cost/benefit driven choice.  Or it could be a legal reason.  At the end of the day, the WHY is not entirely relevant.  The reality of the situation as what we need to deal with.

If you or I want to install an unsupported (by the hardware vendor), uncommon OS on our hardware, it is up to us to do the legwork in advance to ensure we pick something that works, or live with the consequences.

Buying something that does not list FreeBSD on the box and expecting it to just magically work is folly.  If more people (e.g., the system builder in my previous post) contacted the vendor first with a query regarding foo OS support, they'd perhaps be more likely to consider said support.


edit:
Obligatory car analogy:  If you buy a car that runs on gasoline, and expect to fill it with diesel, who's fault is that?


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## joel@ (Sep 9, 2013)

CurlyTheStooge said:
			
		

> That's a news of a forgotten past. Any links for current association of Yahoo with FreeBSD? They seemed to switch to Linux long ago.


At least three high profile FreeBSD developers work for Yahoo. Most of the stuff they commit comes from Yahoo.

Also, large parts of the FreeBSD server infrastructure are hosted by Yahoo.


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## throAU (Sep 9, 2013)

wblock@ said:
			
		

> It would be fine if hardware vendors just documented their equipment.  Drivers can then be produced without further commitment from the vendor, and it avoids the binary blob problem.



For whatever reason, documentation may not be supplied.  The hardware vendor has made a choice what software to support, anything outside of that - all bets are off.

Sure it would be ideal if they did document the hardware, but there may be reasons they can not (or will not).  It may even be as simple as "we don't want to".  If we can encourage them to do so, great.  However it may not be possible.

On the flip-side, having a stable driver model to accomodate binary drivers supplied by the vendor would also enable them to release drivers without disclosure of things they may not be at liberty to disclose.

Sure, it's not ideal, but I'm sure the guy with driver-less hardware would rather have a functioning device than a doorstop.


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 9, 2013)

kpa said:
			
		

> I doubt that Netflix needs FreeBSD as a desktop OS for their systems.



That's not the point. He said FreeBSD is becoming less relevant. Obviously not.


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 9, 2013)

CurlyTheStooge said:
			
		

> That's a news of a forgotten past. Any links for current association of Yahoo with FreeBSD? They seemed to switch to Linux long ago.



So we should ignore large companies who make up 1/3 of internet traffic switching to FreeBSD to serve that traffic? And, speaking of Yahoo, that is even older news.


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## CurlyTheStooge (Sep 9, 2013)

joel@ said:
			
		

> At least 3 high profile FreeBSD developers work for Yahoo. Most of the stuff they commit comes from Yahoo.
> Also, large parts of the FreeBSD server infrastructure are hosted by Yahoo.



I'd say that's rather pleasant news to me.

Regards.


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## CoTones (Sep 10, 2013)

No. Just follow FreeBSD developers - use Windows or MAC OS X.


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## vermaden (Sep 10, 2013)

CoTones said:
			
		

> No. Just follow FreeBSD developers - use Windows or MAC OS X.



Sad but true.


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## throAU (Sep 11, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> Sad but true.



Sad?  Hmm.

Just because you have a hammer (FreeBSD) it doesn't mean everything you encounter (e.g., desktop use) is a nail.

I've tried to use FreeBSD on the desktop for years, and there are just simply too many features I need to give up.  Sure I could do it (and have done so), but given that I got an OS X license with my hardware it's just making life more difficult for no real gain for me.

Conversely on the back end, on servers the reverse is true.  OS X is just too limiting, and FreeBSD's lack of desktop features are irrelevant in that space.

PC-BSD is getting there, but still has some way to go.


----------



## jb_fvwm2 (Sep 11, 2013)

I for one wish persons suggesting that the desktop usage is not worth one's while to give specific examples so maybe improvements could be made; I've been using it as my principal desktop ( on computers and laptops ) for almost a decade, without hardly ever a divergence to any use of any other operating system, and still have original files from the 2004 install here and there, despite many hard disk failures [some involving the freezer trick data saves...]


----------



## vermaden (Sep 11, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> Sad?  Hmm.


Yes, sad.



			
				throAU said:
			
		

> I've tried to use FreeBSD on the desktop for years, and there is just simply too many features I need to give up.  Sure I could do it (and have done so), but given that I got an OS X license with my hardware it's just making life more difficult for no real gain for me.


That is why FreeBSD sucks in 'desktop space'. If developers would instead sit down and nail all these inconvenient problems one by one, then FreeBSD would be very usable as a desktop, but it's easier to give up and use Mac OS X.


----------



## kpa (Sep 11, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> Yes, sad.
> 
> 
> That is why FreeBSD sucks in 'desktop space'. If developers would instead sit down and nail all these inconvenient problems one by one, then FreeBSD would be very usable as a desktop, but its easier to give up and use Mac OS X.



Many of those inconviniences are a result of outside developments that are not in the hands of FreeBSD developers at all. The X windowing system has been slowly rewritten piece by piece using components that have been initially done with no regard for portability and FreeBSD seems to have the hardest time adapting because of de-centralized development. FreeBSD still has many strengths but desktop usage is not one of them unless thing change drastically in the near future.


----------



## kpedersen (Sep 11, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> and there is just simply too many features I need to give up.



At the moment this is no problem but I am convinced that the future of Mac OS X and Windows are locked down with vendor stores like iOS and Metro. It would be nice to have FreeBSD ready for when that time comes


----------



## vermaden (Sep 11, 2013)

@kpa,

This is not an excuse.

Is anybody forcing FreeBSD developers to NOT work on X11?

Take a look even at OpenBSD and their Xenocara work, they have a lot less resources than the FreeBSD project and yet, they did it (and still do).

Same for binary packages, FreeBSD recently got PKGng but that still does not solve package 'versions' with some features enabled/compiled or not, OpenBSD a lot earlier had `pkg_add -i` where in interactive mode you could select which binary package with what features enabled you want to install.

From what I know OpenBSD developers use OpenBSD as their 'desktop'.


----------



## Crivens (Sep 11, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> @kpa,
> 
> This is not an excuse.
> 
> ...



This might be the result of some kind of paradox where less resources get you forward faster. There is a line where your resources start to be insufficient to follow the Xorg pace of $THROW_IN_THE_NEWEST_STUFF (which may be a strand of the Linux' NIH virus, but I digress), so you are better off with a fork. That is what the OpenBSD camp did, and it served them well. They need some efford to sometimes merge things from the X.Org trunk, but the rest is able to continue without interruption.

On the other side, the FreeBSD developers have enough resources to have a chance to stay ahead of that line, so they try. But this eats up a lot of resources, leaving fewer free to do new things when compared with OpenBSD. So we may spend most of the manpower playing the "keep up" game, but only going places where others want to be. We may have different ideas about what we want.

I for one would prefer not to have KMS but a small, fast X11 which can be run without being root or without blowing the kernel security levels out of the window. Is Xenocara available in ports? Or maybe I should try out some medieval XF86 from 10 or 15 years past?

Disclaimer: most of this is just guesstimation on my part. Someone who knows more, please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## throAU (Sep 12, 2013)

jb_fvwm2 said:
			
		

> I for one wish persons suggesting that the desktop usage is not worth one's while to give specific examples so maybe improvements could be made; I've been using it as my principal desktop ( on computers and laptops ) for almost a decade, without hardly ever a divergence to any use of any other operating system, and still have original files from the 2004 install here and there, despite many hard disk failures [some involving the freezer trick data saves...]



OK, I'll have a go.  I'm aware some of these are not easy or maybe not even possible, but that doesn't matter to me as an end user, I'll use what works.  I have money and will pay for what works, so $0 is not a limiting factor for me.  This is by no means a comprehensive list, just a few off the top of my head.


Automatic wifi connection to known networks as I roam to different networks.  I should be able to pick from a list and enter details in the box to connect, when it is seen.
Easy set up of L2TP/IPSEC VPN connectivity
Driver updates from third parties via binary module without needing to recompile the kernel or parts of it.
Automatic back ups (something like time machine)
System-wide scripting in the GUI - like folder actions via automator in OS X.  Even better if it is point and click for workflow creation like automator.
Pervasive client-observer architecture.  An example:  you make a change to a folder in OS X.  All finder windows are automatically updated, as changes send a notification to anything observing it.  No need to hit F5 to refresh.
Gesture support for my trackpad
GUI consistency between applications.  In OS X, every single app uses cmd+q to quit, for example.  The free Unix desktop is a mish-mash of different paradigms with little UI consistency and different toolkits.
Full CODEC support for whatever media I want to play.

And no, these aren't all FreeBSD problems.  I don't expect all of them to ever be fixed.  I'm a pragmatist.  For desktop use I'll use something that works.  For server use, I use what works.

The desktop hardware I buy (Mac laptop) is nice anyway and OS X is already there.  As far as I'm concerned, FreeBSD focusing on those issues is a bit of wheel reinvention, trying to solve a problem that is already solved.

I think more benefit would come of focus on what FreeBSD does best (the server side), and attempting to make THAT easy to integrate into other homogenous environments.

The desktop market is already shrinking anyway.


----------



## vermaden (Sep 12, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> The desktop hardware I buy (Mac laptop) is nice anyway and OS X is already there.


I date to doubt that you would bought the same hardware if it came with Windows. 

I used Mac OS X for more then a year and its quite nice (probably least PITA from commercial desktop OSes) but that keyboard insanity with CMD keys keeps me away from it.


----------



## kpa (Sep 12, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> @kpa,
> 
> This is not an excuse.
> 
> ...



I'm the last one to make excuses on behalf of those in charge of the development of FreeBSD. I'm constantly annoyed by the rather haphazard manner of development and lack of central management that would keep tabs on what the individual developers are doing and would set concrete goals for the projects.


----------



## vanessa (Sep 12, 2013)

Hey guys, I can agree with most of your arguments except to give up FreeBSD as a desktop OS and use it on servers only. Where do you draw the line between a server and a desktop? Servers also have graphics, new chipsets, or maybe a video surveillance card inside.

The lack of drivers is a huge problem for every OS, because not everybody can choose the hardware depending on the OS,  and not every OS can be shipped with its own hardware (or the other way around) like Apple does. 

Then, driver programming is one of the most difficult areas of development. Many people can code a desktop application, even more a PHP one. But go find someone with enough experience in driver development and expect him to have the same hardware as you!

I can only agree with @thorbsd that FreeBSD just has to have driver support for a Dell(!) laptop nowadays. If you go and count the number of those trackpads, you'll certainly come up to hundreds of thousands all over the world, which could be powered by a common driver. Heck, we are talking here about a basic input device like a mouse!

The only viable solution for this problem is what @da1 already suggested. There must be a way to initiate and coordinate paid development for each and every area of interest. I am also one of the many willing to pay for certain features, especially drivers, as I don't have the know-how to develop them myself. 

FreeBSD would only profit from such paid projects, as the number and quality of ports would rise rapidly. And think about the many talented developers without a regular income! They will be happy to deliver whatever piece of software the community needs.


----------



## mix_room (Sep 12, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> I am also one of the many willing to pay for certain features, especially drivers, as I don't have the know-how to develop them myself.



Remember that drivers have the added problem of being hardware dependent, which means that you need to know how the hardware works. This means that the hardware vendor needs to cooperate. It is not only a problem of money. 

I agree with the OpenBSD mantra of 'eating your own dog food', as not only does it mean that you are more likely to find the problems, but they are more likely to affect you, and thus you are more likely to fix them.


----------



## vanessa (Sep 12, 2013)

mix_room said:
			
		

> Remember that drivers have the added problem of being hardware dependent, which means that you need to know how the hardware works. This means that the hardware vendor needs to cooperate. It is not only a problem of money.



Sure, however there are for sure many missing drivers available for Linux in source code, which can be ported to FreeBSD without vendors' support. Let's start with them ...


----------



## jb_fvwm2 (Sep 12, 2013)

I perceive a number of posts wishing there were more persons working on FreeBSD code. Back in the days of shareware and DOS, I was fond of flowcharts if something was complex.  I continually wish for flowcharts additionally to other sources of information... 

```
.....................................................
   w 7 .................................> FreeBSD
........           ^a^                      ..........
```
For instance, if that "a" was a small-print printable box-to-box flowchart(s) of a Windows install migrated to FreeBSD, (the flowchart large and complex...) it might attract more users to FreeBSD from  Linux and from Windows than other methods. It might even help FreeBSD users migrating from MBR to GPT, to CUPS, to Wireless, etc if those sections were included.  I even imagine if were unfoldable to several yards-on-a-side, folded into booklet form, and sold by FreeBSD retailers...


----------



## throAU (Sep 13, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> I date to doubt that you would bought the same hardware if it came with Windows.
> 
> I used Mac OS X for more then a year and its quite nice (probably least PITA from commercial desktop OSes) but that keyboard insanity with CMD keys keeps me away from it.



CMD + Apple keys are just like Windows and Menu keys on a regular keyboard.

Took about a week to get used to it.

edit:
Not saying necessarily to give up on desktop development, but there is PC-BSD for that, and most of the software involved (Gnome, KDE, X11, etc.) is not written by the FreeBSD team anyway.

The angle I am coming from is that resources spent by the FreeBSD team in this area are effort already being made by PC-BSD, and would be resources diverted from improving FreeBSD as server, which it is a far more realistic option for.  Again, I am aware people do use it for a desktop, but you really do have to make some serious sacrifices to do so.

On drivers:  I truly believe that until there is a stable ABI for either Linux or FreeBSD, getting driver support is going to be an uphill battle that will never be won.  We can either accept that, and live with limited driver support, or accept the fact that some companies don't want to provide programming specs or source code (the actual reason is entirely irrelevant really, the end result of not getting info is what matters) and provide an ABI. 

It's been 20+ years now for both Linux and FreeBSD and the driver situation hasn't changed much.  I don't think it's going to any time soon.


----------



## CoTones (Sep 13, 2013)

It seems some people here don't understand desktop importance. OK, just an example: bankrupted SUN with excellent and expensive Solaris for servers versus always defective and best by general usability desktop Windows from multimillionaire Microsoft; Linux distributions everywhere - desktops, servers, firewalls, routers, media centers, mobile phones versus BSDs with limited capabilities for new hardware; and situation (only slightly better because of more free developers here) like Open Solaris will happen without generous anonymous donations and support.


----------



## vermaden (Sep 13, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> CMD + Apple keys are just like Windows and Menu keys on a regular keyboard.
> 
> Took about a week to get used to it.



Nope. if it was ONLY that, then I would be using Mac myself.

On Windows its CTRL-C / CTRL-v / CTRL-T / CTRL-W / CTRL-* and WIN- for some Windows features (move windows/open Explorer/...).

On Mac there is no CTRL-C for copy, its CMD-C, shortcuts that were 'bound' to CTRL now are 'bound' to CMD ... but not all of them, some are still CTRL-* and some are CMD-*, but in Terminal, its still CTRL, not CMD ... I just want to stay away from this mess.




			
				throAU said:
			
		

> Not saying necessarily to give up on desktop development, but there is PC-BSD for that, and most of the software involved (Gnome, KDE, X11, etc.) is not written by the FreeBSD team anyway.



So when are PC-BSD developers going to write VT code to get the console back after 'visiting' X11? How is their work on ATI graphics cards drivers going? I assume that they already have Nvidia Optimus worked out and implemented, they just do not post it public yet because they want to polish it a little bit more. </sarcasm>

PC-BSD team get what FreeBSD does and make a default install (and installer) from the base system and from the ports.


----------



## wblock@ (Sep 13, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> So when are PC-BSD developers going to write VT code to get the console back after 'visiting' X11?



Not PC-BSD, the Foundation has funded that.  I can't find a link right now.



> How is their work on ATI graphics cards drivers going?



Again, not PC-BSD, but committed to -head, last I heard.  I have not tested it yet.


----------



## ondra_knezour (Sep 13, 2013)

CoTones said:
			
		

> bankrupted SUN with excellent and expensive Solaris for servers versus always defective and best by general usability desktop Windows from multimillionaire MICROSOFT



You mean the bankrupted Sun with the desktop enviroment bought by the multimillionaire Oracle without any of them?  And more to that, which have quickly lost interest in the desktop parts of the Sun like the OpenOffice.org suite and keep their server business like the Sparc hardware and the Solaris software, even if they already have the Oracle Unbreakable Linux etc.? Just to note that having the desktop is not the only requirement to success on the IT market today.


----------



## vermaden (Sep 13, 2013)

@wblock@,

You obviously missed the </sarcasm> tag at the end of my sentence 

@throAU suggested that the PC-BSD team should do 'desktop FreeBSD' and I showed him that these things can not be done by PC-BSD team itself.


----------



## jrm@ (Sep 13, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> I used Mac OS X for more then a year and its quite nice



Was the sarcasm tag missing here too? 

<light-hearted-jab>
Or, maybe you like a layer of obfuscation between the UI and the real OS.  Or maybe you think Lenovo isn't dictatorial enough and you need real hardware lock-in.
</light-hearted-jab>

Whatever floats _your_ boat.


----------



## silicium (Sep 13, 2013)

After retiring my main Windows desktop (just tired of XP for daily work), despite having successfully tried PC-BSD, I had to switch to Linux because the deal breaker was the lack of X input driver for my Wacom Intuos2 tablet, which could have been the most expensive part when new (I got used A4 and A6 models and an unused "new old stock" A5, they even work on Windows 7 through complex XP driver installation hacks).

I installed Debian minimal base with x11-wm/openbox and some xfce4 tools instead of its bloated default GUI, and could quickly use my tablet thanks to https://github.com/RoaldFre/wacom_serial5

To bridge the gap between developers with limited time and users wanting drivers, I'd agree to pay developers to write guides how to port drivers from Linux source.


----------



## vermaden (Sep 13, 2013)

jrm said:
			
		

> Was the sarcasm tag missing here too?



No  I really liked it, it run 130-150 days of uptime (reboot only for updates), if only not that keyboard layout ;p



			
				jrm said:
			
		

> <light-hearted-jab>
> Or, maybe you like a layer of obfuscation between the UI and the real OS.  Or maybe you think Lenovo isn't dictatorial enough and you need real hardware lock-in.
> </light-hearted-jab>


Lenovo is not better here (and Dell also), the last good keyboard layout by Lenovo was in T420/T520/W520. They spectacularly fscked up the T430/T530/W530 keyboard :\ Same with Dell laptops newer then E6410/E5510/...


----------



## ondra_knezour (Sep 13, 2013)

silicium said:
			
		

> guides how to port drivers from Linux source


Basics http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/arch-handbook/driverbasics.html
Book http://nostarch.com/bsddrivers.htm
Review of the book and an example http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=31610
Older resources compilation http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=1566


----------



## throAU (Sep 14, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> On Mac there is no CTRL-C for copy, its CMD-C, shortcuts that were 'bound' to CTRL now are 'bound' to CMD ... but not all of them, some are still CTRL-* and some are CMD-*, but in Terminal, its still CTRL, not CMD ... I just want to stay away from this mess.



So how do you manage with the FreeBSD or Linux desktop then?


----------



## throAU (Sep 14, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> @throAU suggested that the PC-BSD team should do 'desktop FreeBSD' and I showed him that these things can not be done by PC-BSD team itself.



There is nothing (other than the possible developer time/skill constraints) to stop the PC-BSD team from doing this themselves if they wanted to fork and submit patches back (or not).


----------



## vermaden (Sep 14, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> There is nothing (other than the possible developer time/skill constraints) to stop the PC-BSD team from doing this themselves if they wanted to fork and submit patches back (or not).


Fork is probably the WORST thing they could do, they do not have resources for that.


----------



## scottro (Sep 14, 2013)

For what it's worth, on an Asus Zenbook with an i5 and integrated Intel graphics card, I can go from X11 to virtual terminals without problems.  I can also quit out of X.  However, on another machine, with an i7, also with integrated Intel graphics, I can neither quit X (if I run `startx` I have to stay there till the machine is shut down) nor get a VT.  So, while I share vermaden's reservations about Intel, I'd add that it might work, depending upon the system.  Note that I'm using that machine with 10-Alpha, I don't remember if it worked with 9.x.  

In both cases, only the vesa() video driver works.  No luck with Intel drivers.

I think there is some importance to attracting desktop users, mostly because of agenda setting theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda-setting_theory

As for the (alleged) topic of the thread, I think (and this is purely subjective, based on nothing but anecdotal evidence), that Ubuntu, and Mr. Shuttleworth's aggressiveness with some of the hardware manufacturers, did a great deal to increase support for Linux, both in hardware and software, and I think it's one reason one sees so much supported hardware and software for Linux.

On the other hand--gosh, I could argue either side of this argument, depending upon my mood--Linux has, again, in my highly subjective opinion, lost something by becoming so user friendly.  As it gets more Windows like, on some of the forums, one sees more Windows like problems, such as GUI issues preventing a system from booting.

[EDIT many days later]

Vermaden (as usual) is correct.  The machine I mentioned, where I could get back to console or use ctl+alt+Fx to get to virtual console, only works with the vesa() driver.  When using the Intel driver, it is as Vermanden describes, one can neither quit out of X nor go to a virtual terminal.


----------



## tingo (Sep 15, 2013)

If "user friendly" means "support people who don't want to spend any time learning something new" I'm all against it.


----------



## kpedersen (Sep 15, 2013)

scottro said:
			
		

> one sees more Windows like problems, such as GUI issues preventing a system from booting.



That*'*s more of a free desktop problem, and in particular that is more of a problem with GNOME 3 being an absolute embarrassment to the open-source community. Windows never fails to boot because of its desktop environment.


----------



## scottro (Sep 15, 2013)

Yes, I saw your post on the Fedora forums. It's not just GNOME3 though, I've seen that issue on Fedora forums for years.   

I should have added that my statements are based on very anecdotal evidence, just things I notice from talking with people, viewing forums, and the like.


----------



## kpedersen (Sep 15, 2013)

My theory is that if I keep reminding the Fedora / RedHat folks that GNOME 3 is a failure, by the time it gets ported to FreeBSD, we will have something usable


----------



## scottro (Sep 16, 2013)

Ok, that was a literal LOL.

My own feeling, and again, this is just my opinion, is that way back when, there was less of a divide between system administrators and developers. Later, when it was no longer necessary to be a coder to be a sysadmin, the line got a little broader, but nowadays, many of the Linux developers seem to have little thought of the system as a server. This isn't necessarily bad for something like Fedora--and indeed, I think that Ubuntu's attempt to create "Linux for human beings," as they phrased it, did the entire open source community good, raising the awareness, and making both hardware and software vendors to think about supporting it.

As I said, I can easily argue either side, depending upon my mood.


----------



## throAU (Sep 16, 2013)

vermaden said:
			
		

> Fork is probably the WORST thing they could do, they do not have resources for that.



Well, write the code and contribute back then?


----------



## vermaden (Sep 16, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> Well, write the code and contribute back then?



You already know that I do (You _Thanked _for that post) ...
https://forums.freebsd.org/showpost.php?p=232064&postcount=26


----------



## zspider (Sep 16, 2013)

tingo said:
			
		

> If "user friendly" means "support people who don't want to spend any time learning something new" I'm all against it.



I associate myself with that completely. People need to stop being apathetic to learning, especially at the expense of people who actually do want to learn and who enjoy it. 

The OP should read this article. http://vtbsd.net/notwindows.html


----------



## Crivens (Sep 16, 2013)

tingo said:
			
		

> If "user friendly" means "support people who don't want to spend any time learning something new" I'm all against it.



I'll second that.

What I realize now is why I also quit Linux, one part of the steaming barrel of reasons that drove me away. Learning is investment of time and resources to gain something. Something of worth. If it is not worth the resources to you, you will not do it. So - when you start learning something in Linux and the carpet is pulled out from under you, again and again, because of the rapid changes in the APIs, the components, the continuing hunt for integrating the next to be obsolete way of doing something, then your time and effort are spent on things whose worth has a pretty short "best before" label. Learning how to handle udev? Why? Who can tell you the thing will be around in half a year? So you start to botch things together with digital duct tape.


----------



## kpedersen (Sep 16, 2013)

Crivens said:
			
		

> Why? Who can tell you the thing will be around in half a year?



I also agree with this thought. I have no interest in wasting my time learning things that are going to disappear in months to come. I am however very happy to learn stuff that is going to remain for many many years. This is generally why I like *BSD. It doesn't change for the sake of change.

There is always the argument of "nothing lasts for ever" but to be honest, I am not bothered if it doesn't. Just so long as it lasts longer than my lifespan


----------



## neilms (Sep 16, 2013)

thorbsd said:
			
		

> I loved using FreeBSD on my desktop, but it's unusable on my Dell XPS 15z laptop. I switched over to Linux, and everything works just fine.
> 
> I've posted to the driver mailing list twice with no response about getting the touchpad to work, I've got no idea if anyone is working on porting Bumblebee over (or working on code that works with the official nVidia drivers) so the Optimus nVidia card can be disabled, the LCD panel brightness buttons don't work, the DVD eject button doesn't work, and there is still no VT switching.
> 
> ...



I understand your frustration, but as I understand it the issue with KMS and switching to X.Org is a very deep and non trivial problem that involves a great deal of work to get right. There are not, to my knowledge, large teams of volunteers working on this either. I may be wrong but I believe there are only two people who commit themselves to this task. We should be grateful for their contributions and be patient.

For the other issues about your touchpad, I am certain you can get help from users here!

I don't agree with your view that laptop users are neglected as I exclusively use FreeBSD on my Toshiba laptop as do a lot of other people. It takes a bit of time to configure things so everything works to my taste. If you do not have time to do all of the required configuration or only have one machine, perhaps a better option for you might be to try PC-BSD or another operating system. You could still run FreeBSD in an emulator.


----------



## zspider (Sep 17, 2013)

neilms said:
			
		

> I understand your frustration, but as I understand it the issue with KMS and switching to X.Org is a very deep and non trivial problem that involves a great deal of work to get right. There are not, to my knowledge, large teams of volunteers working on this either. I may be wrong but I believe there are only two people who commit themselves to this task. We should be grateful for their contributions and be patient.
> 
> For the other issues about your touchpad, I am certain you can get help from users here!
> 
> I don't agree with your view that laptop users are neglected as I exclusively use FreeBSD on my Toshiba laptop as do a lot of other people. It takes a bit of time to configure things so everything works to my taste. If you do not have time to do all of the required configuration or only have one machine, perhaps a better option for you might be to try PC-BSD or another operating system. You could still run FreeBSD in an emulator.



I've put FreeBSD on three laptops over the years and it's usually worked pretty well. Additionally, the GEM/KMS stuff works pretty well considering how few people are working on it.


----------



## throAU (Sep 17, 2013)

zspider said:
			
		

> I associate myself with that completely. People need to stop being apathetic to learning, especially at the expense of people who actually do want to learn and who enjoy it.
> 
> The OP should read this article. http://vtbsd.net/notwindows.html



Being willing to learn is not the same thing as being willing to put up with stuff that is difficult because the OS vendor can't be bothered to make it simpler.

It shouldn't have to be difficult.  Brain power wasted on say, setting up a printer or getting a sane desktop environment set up is brain power that can and should be spent on more important problems.

This is why I currently run a Mac desktop (still use FreeBSD where it is appropriate, on servers).  I've been there, done that with Unix desktop environments (I've run pretty much all of them between 1996 and 2006) and to be honest I have better things to be doing with my time these days.

Could I figure it out?  Sure.  Is it time I am willing to spend any more?  No.  Not when a usable alternative that takes zero brain power to make usable already exists.  Dont' get me wrong, there are things about OS X I dislike, but seriously, I swear, the amount of time some people must spend on R&D to get a usable free Unix desktop far outweighs any realistic productivity gain achieved.

Now this isn't FreeBSD specific - but until the Unix desktop kids (GNOME/KDE) stop breaking things and deprecating everything every couple of years it's going to remain marginalized lacking support from third parties.


----------



## kpedersen (Sep 17, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> but until the Unix desktop kids (GNOME/KDE) stop breaking things



Heh, they don't even deserve that name (nor certified to use it). Try "Distro Desktop Kids"?


----------



## ChalkBored (Sep 17, 2013)

GNOME has stated that they're a Linux desktop. KDE at least has the intention of running everywhere.


----------



## jrm@ (Sep 17, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> It shouldn't have to be difficult.  Brain power wasted on say, setting up a printer or getting a sane desktop environment set up is brain power that can and should be spent on more important problems.



I respect your point of view, but my experience is different.  I don't find it's a waste of brain power because once you get things set up they (usually  ) just work.  For example, to set up a printer I used @wblock's guide and it wasn't a hassle at all.  I find using some sort of wizard to set things up is often a waste of brain power because you don't learn how things really work.  If something goes wrong you might be helpless.



			
				throAU said:
			
		

> This is why I currently run a Mac desktop (still use FreeBSD where it is appropriate, on servers).  I've been there, done that with Unix desktop environments (I've run pretty much all of them between 1996 and 2006) and to be honest I have better things to be doing with my time these days. ... until the Unix desktop kids (GNOME/KDE) stop breaking things and deprecating everything every couple of years it's going to remain marginalized lacking support from third parties.



I've stayed away from these desktop environments and stuck with simple window managers.  I've tried to embrace the Unix way of doing things, that is, at the terminal.  So, give me a decent browser and a descent terminal emulator and I'm happy.



			
				throAU said:
			
		

> Could I figure it out?  Sure.  Is it time I am willing to spend any more?  No.  Not when a usable alternative that takes zero brain power to make usable already exists.



I have my own guides similar to what @taz posted and I'm up and running quickly.  Again, I'm not trying to dismiss your experience, just countering with mine.  I can relate to some of your points and the comparison isn't black and white, but grey and subjective.  For example, it's a bit of an inconvenience to not be able to switch to a virtual terminal after having started Xorg.  Suspend and resume on my laptop would be nice, but other than that things are very good.  For me (but not you), the downsides to running a Mac far outweigh these inconveniences.


----------



## kpa (Sep 17, 2013)

I can understand both sides of the argument kind of. However, what the developers of the various open source desktop environments have kept promising is that their DEs would be real alternatives to commercial offerings, as easy to use and configure as the commercial counterparts and would work on the same hardware. Almost all of these promises have been empty in my eyes so far. It's the average user that does not have the skills or the time to tinker with low level settings to fix problems that decides if a DE or any similar system is usable for wider audience or not.


----------



## TiberiusDuval (Sep 17, 2013)

I'd say quite a big problem is that many open source desktop environments use Linux-only solutions. Like for example how to attach a removable drive from a GUI? PC-BSD solves this by adding its own mountray application, which at most times works adequately. 

On other hand, desktop environments do not work as flawlessly as in some commercial OS'es even under Linux, not even in some very desktop oriented distributions like Ubuntu. Try doing any non-standard stuff, and you will need a shell quite fast.


----------



## throAU (Sep 18, 2013)

jrm said:
			
		

> I respect your point of view, but my experience is different.  I don't find it's a waste of brain power because once you get things set up they (usually  ) just work.  For example, to set up a printer I used @wblock's guide and it wasn't a hassle at all.  I find using some sort of wizard to set things up is often a waste of brain power because you don't learn how things really work.  If something goes wrong you might be helpless.



You know what I had to do to print? I plugged the printer in, hit print and selected it.  One minute, job done.  The page comes out and I go do something more productive.

I don't actually care how the internals of printing work, I just want a page with text to come out.  I'd rather spend the brain power on firewall rule-sets, anti-spam configuration, WAN troubleshooting, company datacenter refresh design or whatever.  *If* something goes wrong, fair enough I will engage the brain.  But for the common case, making everybody jump through hoops is a waste of time.

Personal computers have been printing since the 1980s.  It shouldn't require you to follow a guide to make it work any more than I should need a guide to operate my telephone to make a voice call.  This isn't some exotic, uncommon edge case for PC usage we're talking about here.


edit:
This is from an idealistic end user perspective.  Yes, making the code do all that in a sane and reliable manner is probably hard.  But the typical end user doesn't care.


----------



## Crivens (Sep 18, 2013)

throAU said:
			
		

> But for the common case, making everybody jump through hoops is a waste of time.
> 
> Personal computers have been printing since the 1980s.  It shouldn't require you to follow a guide to make it work any more than I should need a guide to operate my telephone to make a voice call.  This isn't some exotic, uncommon edge case for PC usage we're talking about here.



I'm with you here, mostly. But one thing you should try is to check what a hoop is and what is not by consulting some complete computer-illiterate. Because what is normal for us maybe some hoop for them, and what we think is a hoop may come natural to others.

In the desktop environments (GNOME/KDE/...) there usually is the attempt to reshape the hoop so the users can pass them better while their main target kernel/OS tries to reshape some other hoops - so the DE changes the square peg for a round one while the OS feature group is refitting a starshape receptable instead of the round one because is covers more edge cases.

The reasons for this can be many, acute spells of featuritis, hard cases of NIH syndrome or simply reinventing the wheel because 'we can'. In commercial areas this is often the beancounters (cut the last cent from the product), the marketing (make it different) or necessity (the parts are no longer available). To come back to your example, if all printers were to speak postscript there would be no problem. We would have standardised postscript renderers as ASICs by now, but they would not be different from the other brands, would (at the beginning) be more expensive and would make it harder to add fisher-price-type features. Engineers would love them, marketing would weep and the accountants would try to argue for a cardboard case because it would be cheaper.

Instead we have a zillion of win-printers. We do not have Display PostScript with hardware acceleration. Because we are not all engineers, we are humans.


----------



## sossego (Sep 18, 2013)

Who the hell knows said:
			
		

> Talk is cheap, unless it's a 900 number.



Those projects which have my attention are those which will bring FreeBSD closer to the mainstream. Expecting the business and normal world to accept without testing is being silly. 

What can you do?
What do you do with FreeBSD?
Is anyone near you that can use it as part of their business, home, or social life?
Developers are more down to earth and usually help when asked - in a kind and human way, of course. _Don't abuse this privilege._

The people  I have introduced FreeBSD - and Linux - to are not programmers. Some of them need more time learning about computers; however, they all understand and see the differences along with the options of customizing the two mentioned systems.

I'll disagree and say that forking does help providing that doing such produces better results.


----------



## tingo (Sep 18, 2013)

Why is "mainstream" a goal? Doesn't "mainstream" imply that something (in this case FreeBSD) is the same as everybody else?


----------



## vermaden (Sep 19, 2013)

tingo said:
			
		

> Why is "mainstream" a goal? Doesn't "mainstream" imply that something (in this case FreeBSD) is the same as everybody else?



If having working graphics acceleration and relatively long work on battery are 'mainstream', then yes, I need 'mainstream' goals.


----------



## sossego (Sep 20, 2013)

tingo said:
			
		

> Why is "mainstream" a goal? Doesn't "mainstream" imply that something (in this case FreeBSD) is the same as everybody else?



No. In this case, FreeBSD as the base for audio production on different architectures becomes an option. Musicians and artists like backup systems, especially those that allow the user complete control over the conversion process.


----------



## throAU (Sep 20, 2013)

Crivens said:
			
		

> Instead we have a zillion of win-printers. We do not have Display PostScript with hardware acceleration. Because we are not all engineers, we are humans.



Oh of course, I didn't say it would be easy.  I'm wearing my "living in fantasy land" idealist hat here.

My point, I guess was that assuming that people who want things to be user friendly are muppets or mildly retarded is simply living in denial and passing the problem off as not significant, when in actual fact it is a massive collective time sink for humanity, if you add up the total man hours wasted by every end user.  I was just using the printing mentioned above as an example.

User friendly doesn't have to mean inflexible or otherwise brain-damaged.

People who say stuff like:



> If "user friendly" means "support people who don't want to spend any time learning something new" I'm all against it.



Are simply furthering the problem and *wasting everybody's time*.  Time that some pharmacist could be spending curing cancer (for example) instead of screwing around trying to print (a problem that humanity has solved countless times before).  

Printing (for example) is something that pretty much every user will want to do, and something that should not require significant time investment to accomplish.  Setting up a machine to print isn't "learning something new" - it is simply wheel re-invention.  Wheel re-invention is BAD.  Far better to spend time learning something *new* which wasn't already learned millions of times before by other people!  I thought this was a core concept behind the BSD style license?

Printing is merely one example (not even the most awkward) of something which "shouldn't" be so hard.  I'm fully aware there are reasons that it is difficult in reality, but simply passing the problem off as nothing to be concerned about (or worse, being hostile regarding users it imapcts) is living in denial.

Computers are meant to make life easier and for the vast majority of the population computing is a means to an end, not an end goal itself.  I think sometimes people forget that.


----------



## Crivens (Sep 20, 2013)

@throAU, being user friendly - it's a tradeoff most of the time, but what a developer can do is "shorten the gap" it creates. You may have a situation where it takes some time and efford to get things going and you can make the most common case as easy as possible. What the developer should *not* do is raising the bar for the other cases. Windows kind-of does that. When you do not have an out-of-the-box driver for your hardware, you are basically out of luck. But the common case (driver is somewhere in the box with the hardware) is easy, that is being user friendly. Just not hacker friendly 

What I tried to point out is that there are other interests mixed up in this. For some, wasting your time is their business. Spammers are a prime example for this (BTW, I read a good idea about spammers: They belong in prison, together with inmates who had their dingdong enlarged, swallow Viagra by the handful and are looking for a new love in their area.)

The side effect of Windows being user-friendly is that life gets harder for anyone else, not only on Windows. That's why we have these cursed win-printers, win-modems and what not, while no real standard is enforced at the hardware/software border. Such standards would free enormous amounts of development resources, of time and money. But there are interests against this. What is needed here is ignoring them and when necessary even fight them. Just look at KMS/GEM/... What is the benefit? Because the price is a lot of time, bugs, frustration and angry users who find their hardware now no longer working. These need to spend their time getting back, or they deem this no longer worth their time and go away. How many great ideas are lost by such things?

On the other hand, if everyone is comfortable with what they have, there will be no progress.


----------



## fonz (Sep 20, 2013)

Crivens said:
			
		

> (BTW, I read a good idea about spammers: They belong in prison, together with inmates who had their dingdong enlarged, swallow Viagra by the handful and are looking for a new love in their area).


I'll split this off if it starts to sidetrack the discussion, but in the meantime:

Are you insane? You can't be seriously suggesting that public money is spent to reward spammers with a roof over their head, three square meals a day and a love life that no doubt some of those creeps will actually enjoy.

I suggest we slap them a huge fine on a first offence. And on a second offence, it's into the nearest waste incineration plant they go. It's fast, efficient, cheap and might even make them slightly useful to society. I'm not normally in favour of capital punishment, but spammers deserve to be made an exception for  Essentially, it's simply waste disposal, which is exactly what those plants are for in the first place.


----------



## xibo (Sep 20, 2013)

thorbsd said:
			
		

> I can't even begin to help if my mouse doesn't work.



I got a new Dell laptop three weeks ago. Its touchpad doesn't work with the xf86-input-whatever drivers either but it does work with the moused() service, which can also be used in X11.


----------



## RichardET (Sep 20, 2013)

Since I am new here , and thus prone to mistakes, let me ask something which is tangential to this thread - what's the origin of the clear antipathy, almost blatant dislike for Linux developers by *BSD developers and vice-versa?  Is it only the GPL vs. BSD licensing legalities?  Is it the Linux kernel design?  I exist on other forums and there is this chronic disease thread of Stallman vs. De Raadt vs. Torvalds vs. etc., etc.  Is it just an ego thing, or are there real distinctions worth visiting?  Finally,  how could FreeBSD benefit from this situation, and become as vibrant as Ubuntu is now to many in the open source community?


----------



## kpa (Sep 20, 2013)

I don't have any antipathy towards Linux kernel developers at all. In my opinion the Linux kernel is vastly superior to FreeBSD's kernel in many ways. What I dislike very strongly is the GNU userland and the lack of stability in the programming APIs across the board.


----------



## jrm@ (Sep 21, 2013)

I'll skip technical distinctions; your favourite search engine can help with them better than me.

I suspect much of the perceived aversion is a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" effect, where a small number from each _camp_ voice their disdain and we take notice, while most users who appreciate the synergetic relationship stay quiet.  On the other hand, while disputes on the mailing lists (where much of the _real_ discussions take place, at least for the BSDs) are uncommon, some lively ones do occur from time to time.  It also seems to be a part of human nature to distinguish ourselves by our team/religion/political party/club and justify our position with self-deception and rhetoric.

As far as FreeBSD becoming more mainstream, I don't see it happening because our target audience just isn't the same as Ubuntu's.  However projects like PC-BSD, which are based on FreeBSD, may gain a larger user base.

@kpa, would you be able to elaborate on your opinion that the Linux kernel is vastly superior to FreeBSD's in many ways?


----------



## sossego (Sep 22, 2013)

@tingo: There is no real reason to worry about FreeBSD becoming mainstream for the moment. It's remaining a toolbox. Linux has only entered the business market with a few distributions: 
Red Hat
SuSe
Ubuntu


----------



## scottro (Sep 22, 2013)

RichardET said:
			
		

> ... what's the origin of the clear antipathy, almost blatant dislike for Linux developers by *BSD developers and vice-versa?


(Not sure if "..." is frowned upon here, but it is a standard method of indicating that one is quoting part of a sentence---so moderate it if you wish, but I stand by its correctness.) _[ That is actually one of very few uses for an ellipsis -- Mod. ]_

As was said, it's probably a vocal minority.  The official stance, at least, if defined by what is printed on the advocacy site at http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/myths.html



> *BSD is better than (insert other system)
> 
> This is user opinion only.
> 
> ...



As I age, I become more opinionated, and try to remember the words of the talented Tina Fey.


> â€œIt is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you donâ€™t like something, it is empirically not good.



I would guess that there are probably valid arguments for both FreeBSD (and the other BSDs) and Linux, and remember--no idea where I saw it--a comment in a debate about which was better, mutt or pine.  I don't remember the exact comment, but it was to the effect that people pull up technical arguments to bolster what is, in the end, an emotional decision.


----------



## sulman (Sep 23, 2013)

sossego said:
			
		

> @tingo: There is no real reason to worry about FreeBSD becoming mainstream for the moment. It's remaining a toolbox. Linux has only entered the business market with a few distributions:
> Red Hat
> SuSe
> Ubuntu



Actually, who can tell what the future holds. Linux is rolling along at tremendous speeds; that is both a good and bad thing. There will always be place for FreeBSD. 

As an aside, the quality of discussion here is a tribute to the forum. These topics can get nasty very quickly.


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## drhowarddrfine (Sep 23, 2013)

These last two posts are the stupidest things I have ever read.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kQFKtI6gn9Y


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## om (Oct 29, 2013)

Find someone and pay them to fix your FreeBSD issue/problem. Crowdsource the money if you want.

Get a wad of cash and hand it to a developer(s). Money talks.


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## zspider (Oct 29, 2013)

Turns out the Op's question was already answered about a year or two ago.

http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=28664


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## Martillo1 (Oct 29, 2013)

There is a lot of momentum in the Linux world to slay BSDs, FreeBSD being the first piece to take. Now they are trying to kill the kFreeBSD kernel in Debian (along with Hurd) by trying to change the systemv-init to systemd or upstart. I have seen a post in a discussion of the technical comitee on the subjcet, stating that FreeBSD is the road block on Debian (and thereof Linux) development.

I can not understand why so much hate.


----------



## zspider (Oct 29, 2013)

Martillo1 said:
			
		

> There is a lot of momentum in the Linux world to slay BSDs, FreeBSD being the first piece to take. Now they are trying to kill the kFreeBSD kernel in Debian (along with Hurd) by trying to change the systemv-init to systemd or upstart. I have seen a post in a discussion of the technical comitee on the subjcet, stating that FreeBSD is the road block on Debian (and thereof Linux) development.
> 
> I can not understand why so much hate.



If they get rid of it I don't imagine it would be any big loss, the whole thing kind of reminds me of how people weld the good halves of wrecked cars together and sell them as new.

Linux is going to do what Linux is going to do.


----------



## kpa (Oct 29, 2013)

The kFreeBSD based Debian is just an interesting side project for Debian, anyone claiming that it slows down the development of Linux needs a serious reality check.


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## Martillo1 (Oct 29, 2013)

Adopting systemD in Debian would dethrone them and pass the scepter to Red Hat. I doubt they do it.


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## Crivens (Oct 29, 2013)

Let's summarize a bit (tounge in cheek, somewhat):

Linux switches to systemd
Linux user land is known to change the APIs more often than the median of the users change their underwear
Maintainance cost and efford will be affected
Hating trolls will stare at non-booting systems and switch to windows to write their hate postings
Some little daemons will sit in their chairs, look at that and snigger

Conclusion: Let's support their move to systemd!

For the record: The Linux kernel is pretty good at keeping APIs/ABIs running. What screws up there is the user land, nine ways to Sunday.


----------



## vanessa (Oct 29, 2013)

kpa said:
			
		

> I don't have any antipathy towards Linux kernel developers at all. In my opinion the Linux kernel is vastly superior to FreeBSD's kernel in many ways.



Can somebody post a list of what a FreeBSD kernel is missing compared to Linux?



			
				kpa said:
			
		

> What I dislike very strongly is the GNU userland and the lack of stability in the programming APIs across the board.



Well, by not having enough of "user facing stuff" in the base system we are forced to use it from Linux. One needs a decent desktop environment? No problem - welcome to Linux's userland!


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## taz (Oct 29, 2013)

In my opinion the answer "Do it your self" is appropriate in the FreeBSD domain because FreeBSD is not owned by a single person or a single corporation. It's an effort of people around the world. And it should be looked as this awesome and clean peace of code that one can take and improve it for them self and others by committing the changes back.

Also, IMHO, people compare FreeBSD to Linux WAY TOO MUCH or better to say they want FreeBSD to be like Linux (why does FreeBSD not have this and that drivers/support and Linux has them/it etc) and I can not understand why. This is what confuses me: if Linux or Win or Mac OS fulfill ones needs in terms of desktop usage why don't they just use that? In the desktop/user land domain, call it what ever you want, it makes no difference what is under the hood. One could show PC-BSD to xy people and a great deal of them would not even been aware of the fact that it's not Linux under the hood.

What I'm trying to say is that if one is not happy with the fact that FreeBSD has no driver for their WiFi/GPU/etc AND is not willing to get their hands dirty (or thinks that they should not) then FreeBSD is definitely the wrong domain for them and should use what ever OS suits their needs. Why? because the kernel/OS that runes under that, for example, KDE DE is obviously not their concern. If it were they would take the appropriate steps to make it work, and by appropriate steps I mean posting a thread that starts with "How can I *?" and not "Why FreeBSD dose not *?".


----------



## vanessa (Oct 29, 2013)

taz said:
			
		

> One could show PC-BSD to xy people and a great deal of them would not even been aware of the fact that ist's not Linux under the hood.



Then PC-BSD must be the worst OS ever, having taken the wrong parts of both worlds, the not so fancy BSD kernel (if what @kpa says is true) and the terrible Linux userland ... 



			
				taz said:
			
		

> What I'm trying to say is that if one is not happy with the fact that FreeBSD has no driver for their wifi/gpu/etc AND is not willing to get their hands dirty (or thinks that they should not) then FreeBSD is definitely the wrong domain for them and should use what ever OS suits their needs. Why? because the kernel/OS that runes under that, for example, KDE DE is obviously not their concern. If it where they would take the appropriate steps to make it work, and by appropriate steps I mean posting a thread that starts with "How can I *?" and not "Why FreeBSD dose not *?".



I am very interested in contributing myself. Last week I even ordered the book "FreeBSD Device Drivers" and hope to be able to write drivers soon. 

Can I code my very own Desktop Environment now? NO! Do users need _some_ kind of WM or DE? YES! Does FreeBSD have one? NO! So, welcome to Linux userland again!


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## taz (Oct 29, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> Can I code my very own Desktop Environment now? NO!



If you think that FreeBSD needs its own DE then learn how do it (just as you will learn how to write a device driver), start a project and try to get the community involved.

Btw. coding up a WM is actually not that hard. A full blown DE is another story thou_gh_.


----------



## roddierod (Oct 29, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> Can somebody post a list of what a FreeBSD kernel is missing compared to Linux? ...
> 
> Well, by not having enough of "user facing stuff" in the base system we are forced to use it from Linux. One needs a decent desktop environment? No problem - welcome to Linux's userland!



Since I've been using FreeBSD as a desktop operating system for about 14 years now, am always interested in what people definition of a desktop is.  And since you are saying that you are forced to use Linux, should you not have some idea of what you perceive to be missing from the kernel?


----------



## kpedersen (Oct 29, 2013)

taz said:
			
		

> Btw. coding up a WM is actually not that hard. A full blown DE is another story thou_gh_.



I actually find writing the WM to be really hard, there are so many little things to worry about to make it "support" all the many idiocies that a typical GNOME application requires. Not to mention getting it to work with a task bar or multiple desktops. Writing a full blown DE is certainly time consuming but requires less knowledge of X11.

Luckily I am a purist and so have made peace with the simplest WM I can maintain (DWM) and just substituted the rest of the DE with a bunch of scripts. I would advise anybody to do the same because the desktop situation on open-source systems is abysmal and things like GNOME 3 are killing Linux on the desktop anyway. Even Microsoft added the start button back whereas the GNOME developers are too pig headed to fix their broken software.


----------



## vanessa (Oct 29, 2013)

roddierod said:
			
		

> Since I've been using FreeBSD as a desktop operating system for about 14 years now, am always interested in what people definition of a desktop is.



Here is mine: OS X, KDE, GNOME.



			
				roddierod said:
			
		

> And since you are saying that you are forced to use Linux, should you not have some idea of what you perceive to be missing from the kernel?



I don't use Linux but I am forced to use its GNU userland by using KDE under FreeBSD. And what is missing from the kernel? I don't know. I just would like to know in what aspect the Linux kernel is superior. This is why I asked.


----------



## vanessa (Oct 29, 2013)

taz said:
			
		

> If you think that FreeBSD needs its own DE then learn how do it (just as you will learn how to write a device driver), start a project and try to get the community involved.



Exactly this way of thinking kills many good intentions early. An OS is no DIY project! It is a complex piece of software which needs at least a good dialogue and coordination between many developers.


----------



## taz (Oct 29, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> Exactly this way of thinking kills many good intentions early. An OS is no DIY project! It is a complex piece of software which needs at least a good dialogue and coordination between many developers.



Oh ok...and what kind of thinking would you prefer then?


----------



## vanessa (Oct 29, 2013)

@taz, I am perfectly comfortable with your way of thinking. You can think as you want, but if you pretend that this is the better way or right way of thinking and doing, then please prove it. Go ahead and code a WM or DE in a solo mission. Then be there for fixing bugs, answering requests, rolling out next releases, keeping your project up and running for a couple of years or so. 

No problem for you? Well, for the rest of us it is.


----------



## zspider (Oct 29, 2013)

taz said:
			
		

> Oh ok...and what kind of thinking would you prefer then?



The way I see it, FreeBSD has its own culture, which is primarily do it yourself. You don't go to someone else's country and try to impose your own culture on those people, you have to assimilate to their cultural mindset, the same thing applies to newcomers here. If for any reason that is unacceptable, there are plenty of other options out there. It may not be all peace, love, ice cream, hippies and flowers but that's how the world works.

Just my 2 shillings.


----------



## da1 (Oct 29, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> Exactly this way of thinking kills many good intentions early.



+1!


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## taz (Oct 29, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> @taz, I am perfectly comfortable with your way of thinking. You can think as you want, but if you pretend that this is the better way or right way of thinking and doing, then please prove it. Go ahead and code a WM or DE in a solo mission. Then be there for fixing bugs, answering requests, rolling out next releases, keeping your project up and running for a couple of years or so.
> 
> No problem for you? Well, for the rest of us it is.



I think we have a misunderstanding here. First of all I never said anything about a solo mission. The whole DIY is about not just wishing for some new feature to magically appear in FreeBSD code but tu take steps to make that happen.


And some of those steps would be:
- do a research about your problem
- learn things that you need to know in order to solve the problem
- find a reference project
- ask questions on forum/mailing lists
- present your idea to the community and try to find more people that would get involved if this is needed
- start a project on sourceforge/personal page/whatever page
- etc

The bottom line is this, nothing will ever happen by just wishing things to happen


----------



## da1 (Oct 29, 2013)

zspider said:
			
		

> The way I see it, FreeBSD has it's own culture, which is primarily do it yourself. You don't go to someone else's country and try to impose your own culture on those people, you have to assimilate to their cultural mindset[...]



So let's turn the tables here a bit. 

FreeBSD does go to "someone else's country" all the time (granted, in an indirect way) by being used all over the world and of course it does not "try to impose your (it's) own culture" but by saying "you have to assimilate to their cultural mindset" think of the users that have to adapt to the mindset of the OS. So basically, what I see here, is the same old "if you don;t like it, don;t use it". Honestly, this is a major turnoff for any newcomers and a major redirect to Linux where guess what ... they stay.

Remember, an OS is a tool and I think a good tool is a flexible tool, in that it should allow the user to use it to whatever the user sees fit (desktop/server/sandwitchmake/etc). Being rigid and claiming "you have to assimilate to their cultural mindset" is like saying to the user "my way or the highway". Guess what, most users will react like "really? so then gfu <insert OS here>".

At one point, some people have to realize the (dekstop) user's needs (too).


----------



## da1 (Oct 29, 2013)

taz said:
			
		

> The bottom line is this, nothing will ever happen by just wishing things to happen



Hence my proposal to have a fund-raiser for whatever things we need.


----------



## Crivens (Oct 30, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> Then PC-BSD must be the worst OS ever, having taken the wrong parts of both worlds, the not so fancy BSD kernel (if what @kpa says is true) and the terrible Linux userland ...



What rubs me here is the terminus "Linux userland". The desktop environments (GNOME, KDE) are portable and are also used on different Unix versions. The problem is that Linux-isms are creeping in, but KDE is pretty solid against that. Last time I checked, it did not need things like ALSA, which firefox requires now.



			
				zspider said:
			
		

> The way I see it, FreeBSD has its own culture, which is primarily do it yourself. You don't go to someone else's country and try to impose your own culture on those people, you have to assimilate to their cultural mindset, the same thing applies to newcomers here. If for any reason that is unacceptable, there are plenty of other options out there. It may not be all peace, love, ice cream, hippies and flowers but that's how the world works.
> 
> Just my 2 shillings.


+1 for this. But when I think about international politics, there are places where this mindset is not widely in use.  
This would make Linux be more american than european, would it?


----------



## vanessa (Oct 30, 2013)

Crivens said:
			
		

> What rubs me here is the terminus "Linux userland". The desktop environments (GNOME, KDE) are portable and are also used on different Unix versions. The problem is that Linux-isms are creeping in, but KDE is pretty solid against that. Last time I checked, it did not need things like ALSA, which firefox requires now.


Both DEs are developed with Linux in mind. Being portable is a side effect. And if you think they build a harmonic relation with FreeBSD, then go and compile KDE from trunk yourself. One or more of those Linuxisms KDE depends on will break your build many times until you manage to compile it. Hence "Linux userland" ...


----------



## vanessa (Oct 30, 2013)

zspider said:
			
		

> The way I see it, FreeBSD has its own culture, which is primarily do it yourself. You don't go to someone else's country and try to impose your own culture on those people, you have to assimilate to their cultural mindset, the same thing applies to newcomers here. If for any reason that is unacceptable, there are plenty of other options out there. It may not be all peace, love, ice cream, hippies and flowers but that's how the world works.



Every culture without progress is destined to extinction. Especially in the IT world. The FreeBSD community should listen very carefully to those people switching from Linux or Windows to BSD. Then only this way can a project like FreeBSD motivate developers to jump on the train and make contributions. Instead we hear:
 it is like that
 don't ask why
 dance or die (obey or go away)
This is stupid. Do you actually realise that the OP @thorbsd is not taking part in the discussion any more? 
*You lost one more good guy!*


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## vanessa (Oct 30, 2013)

da1 said:
			
		

> Hence my proposal to have a fund-raiser for whatever things we need.



This is a wise and thought through proposal! And especially one that could really work.


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## taz (Oct 30, 2013)

da1 said:
			
		

> Hence my proposal to have a fund-raiser for whatever things we need.



I thought the FreeBSD Foundation served this purpose?


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## da1 (Oct 30, 2013)

It does, but can you or me control it? NO!

My proposal is on a smaller level. Ex: I need driver X imported or written from scratch. For that, I can:

- wine about it and wait for someone else to do it - this sure as hell will not be productive and is not efficient in any way
- do it myself - guess what, I cannot code in C, let alone code at that level
- go away - favorite line of hypocrites (sorry, it just is. I'm totaly with Vanessa on this one - THIS IS NOT THE WAY)
- donate to the foundation - I donate every year but I cannot control what happens with my money
- act upon getting the thing done in another way - ex: ask how many people need this driver and talk to a developer to ask how much it would cost, go back to the group and present the price and hopefully we will split the costs.

Guys, again ... please be more open minded and stop the "if you don;t like it go away" crap. We are losing users! Fast and sure! If you don't think this is true, search your area for FreeBSD jobs vs Linux jobs. And please, hold back the "but company X uses FreeBSD on 80% of their servers" because the fact of the matter is ... it does not matter.

Do the search and compare. You will see Linux jobs are much more vs FreeBSD jobs. Why? Popularity!

And this is what we need.


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## vanessa (Oct 30, 2013)

taz said:
			
		

> I thought the FreeBSD Foundation served this purpose?



Me too. But now I have the impression that the Foundation is covered by few hosting companies which do contribute to the project but with a specific focus (i.e. no "user facing stuff" at all). A couple of weeks ago somebody posted here that the Foundation has two (2!) paid developers.

And has anybody seen a message from a Foundation member here in this forum? They don't even take part in our discussions.


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## kpa (Oct 30, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> Me too. But now I have the impression that the Foundation is covered by few hosting companies which do contribute to the project but with a specific focus (i.e. no "user facing stuff" at all). A couple of weeks ago somebody posted here that the Foundation has two (2!) paid developers.
> 
> And has anybody seen a message from a Foundation member here in this forum? They don't even take part in our discussions.



Just a while ago they had zero people who were paid to do development on FreeBSD itself. Their role was just to provide the infrastructure for development and all developers were unpaid volunteers.


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## tzoi516 (Oct 30, 2013)

da1 said:
			
		

> Remember, an OS is a tool and I think a good tool is a flexible tool, in that it should allow the user to use it to whatever the user sees fit (desktop/server/sandwitchmake/etc). Being rigid and claiming "you have to assimilate to their cultural mindset" is like saying to the user "my way or the highway". Guess what, most users will react like "really? so then gfu <insert OS here>".
> 
> At one point, some people have to realize the (dekstop) user's needs (too).


+1

Not to dogpile onto this flame session, but ... this was why I kept going back to Windows in the 90's - the narcissistic attitude that mirrors political culture (don't like it here then go move to <insert country here>). Felt kinda good playing Unreal and Red Alert while watching those Kardashians complain about Wine. Until there was an IRQ conflict causing me to lose the progress I made in said game. Ah, memories.


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## taz (Oct 30, 2013)

da1 said:
			
		

> It does, but can you or me control it? NO!
> 
> My proposal is on a smaller level. Ex: I need driver X imported or written from scratch. For that, I can:
> 
> ...



No I can not control it and should not be able to either. I trust the judgment of the Foundation and in my personal opinion they are doing a good job with their investments (you don't have to agree with this).

I understand your "frustration" but I if *I* where you I would go to the PC-BSD forum and suggest that the PC-BSD domain starts sort of like a child foundation/fund-raiser in collaboration with the FreeBSD foundation. And that "child" foundation could then server specifically for the "desktop domain". This is just what I would do and what I think makes more sense then handling this on your own. But generally I support your idea and I think a lot of people would donate and take part of this. It just has to be done right and I think PC-BSD is the way to go with this.

Fact is that FreeBSD is more server oriented and making things like FreeBSD in the "desktop domain" or for example "embedded domain" is up to us users to get involved start taking actions. If you think that a found-raiser for desktop related problems is what we need, then do it. I think a lot of people will back this up, including me.


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## vanessa (Oct 30, 2013)

kpa said:
			
		

> Just a while ago they had zero people who were paid to do development on FreeBSD itself. Their role was just to provide the infrastructure for development and all developers were unpaid volunteers.l



This looks promising, let's wait and see how long will it take until we get to know one of those ominous Foundation members here in the forum.


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## kpedersen (Oct 30, 2013)

I know Konstantine is funded by the FreeBSD Foundation to work on implementing KMS in the kernel and I know this project is progressing so I don't think that the FreeBSD Foundation is completely ignoring user facing functionality.

At least not quite having enough manpower prevents the project from doing pointless messy things like Mir and Wayland integration etc...


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## vanessa (Oct 30, 2013)

kpedersen said:
			
		

> At least not quite having enough manpower prevents the project from doing pointless messy things like Mir and Wayland integration etc...



You totally underestimate the "marketing" effect if the Foundation or whoever else manages to port Mir or Wayland to FreeBSD! We don't even need to talk about the technical usefulness. The gain made by attracting thousands of developers to FreeBSD is worth it!

NOW is actually the right time to support one of these projects and be one of the first OSes implementing it thoroughly. The popularity of FreeBSD today is largely based on the decision to jump on the ZFS train *early* and make this move complete. Mir and Wayland are perfect opportunities to "invest" in the future of FreeBSD.


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## tzoi516 (Oct 30, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> Mir and Wayland are perfect opportunities to "invest" in the future of FreeBSD.


I think that would be a horrible idea. Canonical has already jacked up ?buntu, causing 'buntu-based distros to create a Canonical-free version. With how they are affecting things under their own auspice why would people want to allow their tentacles into FreeBSD?


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## da1 (Oct 30, 2013)

taz said:
			
		

> No I can not control it and should not be able to either.


Agreed, I'm just saying that I would like feature X implemented sooner (my priorities != foundation priorities)


> I trust the judgment of the Foundation and in my personal opinion they are doing a good job with their investments (you don't have to agree with this).


I agree, but desktop users are second in line and while this is normal, the desktop does attract lots of users and I think it needs some (more) love.



> I understand your "frustration" but I if *I* where you I would go to the PC-BSD forum and suggest that the PC-BSD domain starts sort of like a child foundation/fund-raiser in collaboration with the FreeBSD foundation. And that "child" foundation could then server specifically for the "desktop domain". This is just what I would do and what I think makes more sense then handling this on your own. But generally I support your idea and I think a lot of people would donate and take part of this. It just has to be done right and I think PC-BSD is the way to go with this.



It does make sense but I think being able to run FreeBSD on your desktop AND in your datacenter is better because the probability of you (as in: desktop user) finding out a bug is faster than if you would run (the bit bloated version of FreeBSD) PC-BSD.



> Fact is that FreeBSD is more server oriented and making things like FreeBSD in the "desktop domain" or for example "embedded domain" is up to us users to get involved start taking actions.


Agreed but the OS has to provide that flexibility to the user.



> If you think that a found-raiser for desktop related problems is what we need, then do it. I think a lot of people will back this up, including me.


I think/hope it will speed things up (regardless if it's desktop or server) because for instance one can have a server without a specific NIC driver, just as the same user can have laptop X without a certain video driver. So I think the door swings both ways here.


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## vanessa (Oct 30, 2013)

tzoi516 said:
			
		

> I think that would be a horrible idea. Canonical has already jacked up ?buntu, causing 'buntu-based distros to create a Canonical-free version. With how they are affecting things under their own auspice why would people want to allow their tentacles into FreeBSD?



I don't see any parallels to the axis Canonical-Ubuntu here. Mir/Wayland under FreeBSD would be developed by the BSD community instead of by a single company. This is a totally other starting point.


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## tzoi516 (Oct 30, 2013)

vanessa said:
			
		

> I don't see any parallels to the axis Canonical-Ubuntu here. Mir/Wayland under FreeBSD would be developed by the BSD community instead of by a single company. This is a totally other starting point.


Mir is Canonical's project. One can't rule out Canonical trying to influence FreeBSD development is my point, since you suggested bringing it over. With how they're affecting ??buntu, I think it would be a negative impact.


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## vanessa (Oct 30, 2013)

tzoi516 said:
			
		

> Mir is Canonical's project. One can't rule out Canonical trying to influence FreeBSD development is my point, since you suggested bringing it over. With how they're affecting ??buntu, I think it would be a negative impact.



No, by bringing it over I didn't mean hijacking the whole project - this is impossible. What could be made is to use the existing code base of Wayland, keep 100% protocol and API compatibility and have a FreeBSD-own development. 

The Open ZFS project is a good example: illumos, FreeBSD, Linux and OS X each develop their port of ZFS with differing code but common results. If any of the OSes develops a new function, it has to announce it and the other may or may not implement or use it, but they still can handle pools not using the specific function.

Now just imagine if FreeBSD would have a port of Mir. How many people do you think use Ubuntu? There are for sure statistics somewhere, but even without them one could imagine the gain of attracting/moving just 0.1% of Ubuntu's user base to FreeBSD by providing Mir and a good DE. 

Again, I don't look at how good or bad Mir or Wayland are. Important is the impact.


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## taz (Oct 30, 2013)

da1 said:
			
		

> I think/hope it will speed things up (regardless if it's desktop or server) because for instance one can have a server without a specific NIC driver, just as the same user can have laptop X without a certain video driver. So I think the door swings both ways here.



Ok so is there a thread/discussion/web page for this idea of yours other than this thread? I'm asking because I'm interested in it.


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## da1 (Oct 30, 2013)

Not at the moment but I think a new thread with this subject would be worth while. I think the first big (or huge) discussion will be what are the missing functionalities that are required by most users.


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## Crivens (Oct 31, 2013)

da1 said:
			
		

> Not at the moment but I think a new thread with this subject would be worth while. I think the first big (or huge) discussion will be what are the missing functionalities that are required by most users.



The emacs and the vi team are running their warm up rounds already 

The most important thing is choice, and that requires different options to choose from. So in order to help the desktop, you need to provide options. Not like _all colors, as long as it is black_.


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## da1 (Oct 31, 2013)

Agreed. When I will have a bit more I will create a thread and we can then see what most people require.


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## taz (Oct 31, 2013)

da1 said:
			
		

> Agreed. When I will have a bit more I will create a thread and we can then see what most people require.



I think it might be a better idea to start a thread about how to approach this. If you start a thread and ask what people want that might end up very chaotic and resulting in no result.

You need a system for voting (forum poll is not adequate for this IMO), assigning priorities and deciding what will be funded with this money. Also I think a discussion about where to draw the line in terms of what can be suggested/asked and ultimately added to the poll is also in order.

Also lets assume there is a dedicated web page (or something like that) for this cause, someone will have to take on the whole administration part of the idea (handling money, finding a developer etc.) and that can be time consuming.

I think it's not as simple as start a thread and ask what people want but in general it's a great idea that might work out if enough people show interest (people that want to work on this idea not just vote/donate).

Anyway, pleas send me a PM if you ever start this thread so I don't miss it.


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